73 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkalezth]

Sorry, I misunderstood the EDM thing.

Circle Kick was commented on the first page, as a worthless feat. My comment was not directed at you.

Haplose didn't say stealth was useless for a monk, he said that without HiPS, you can't use it in the middle of a fight, so it's not that useful.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 19 août 2010 - 07:08 .

[Arkalezth]

Adam024 wrote...

Anyone think this would be a good final build for a character? Or is the sneak attack so valueless due to undead and constructs that it would be too weak?
10th level rogue
5th level invisible blade
7th level assassin
8th level weaponmaster

No. First, 1 less WM and 1 more Assassin would be much better. That said, if you're DEX based, WM is bad because Sneak Attack damage doesn't crit. And if you're STR based, IB is useless. Change at least one of that 2 classes, depending on your main attribute, and take at least 8 Assassin levels for HiPS. I probably wouldn't take WM even if STR based, but you can try if you want.

If you're DEX based, crit immunes will be a problem, as you said, at least until epic, where you can take Epic Precision.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 19 août 2010 - 07:10 .

[Thorsson64]

Haventh wrote...

By pure SR monk i mean 30 lvls as monk + as many improved SR as possible. Also, i think you all underestimate a pure monks speed, add that to good stealth, using corners, doing improved knockdown.

Pure Monk doesn't have HiPS, which is a BIG mistake. There's no other way to put it. They are going to have an AB that absolutely needs HiPS, and if they maximise SR (reaches 54), then even with HiPS they are going to struggle to hit. I did a quick test and you're looking at 30AB max. A melee without shield is going to be one of the few builds it can hit.

As I already pointed out there are spells that ignore Spell Resistance, including all the Epic Spells and several Invocations (and as long as the Warlock isn't carrying a weapon you can't deflect blasts). Plus there's Shadow Simalcrum, and Mords drops your SR by 10, which brings it easily into the Range of any high CL Arcane Caster.

KD (even IKD) won't work very often on the build you propose, as your Strength is just not going to be very high and KD is blocked by Mirror Image, there are several spells that give Immunity and it can even be Parried.

You can say all you like, but IMO that pure Monk is going to be using all that Speed to run away most of the time.

[Thorsson64]

Arkalezth wrote...

About Circle Kick: I didn't have that problem in my experience. I played a monk recently and it worked well (one extra attack against another enemy, but then returning to the first one). I can't tell if it changed the target some time, but at least it worked that way when I tested it.

You can redirect it, but it's not automatic and you lose time while you redirect. It does not happen automatically,at least it never has and Bugsidian have never announced a fix.

[Thorsson64]

Adam024 wrote...

Anyone think this would be a good final build for a character? Or is the sneak attack so valueless due to undead and constructs that it would be too weak?
10th level rogue
5th level invisible blade
7th level assassin
8th level weaponmaster

Sneak Attack and Bleeding Wound do not crit. This makes WM a very poor idea on a build with Ro/Asn/IB.

[Arkalezth]

Thorsson64 wrote...

Arkalezth wrote...

About Circle Kick: I didn't have that problem in my experience. I played a monk recently and it worked well (one extra attack against another enemy, but then returning to the first one). I can't tell if it changed the target some time, but at least it worked that way when I tested it.

You can redirect it, but it's not automatic and you lose time while you redirect. It does not happen automatically,at least it never has and Bugsidian have never announced a fix.

I know what you mean, but I tested it 1 or 2 months ago and I'd swear it was automatic, with no need to redirect. I'll test it again when I can, to be sure. Maybe it only happens sometimes.

[M. Rieder]

Adam024 wrote...

Would this build be pretty good?
Drow
Wizard (school of evocation) Level 10
Blackguard Level 3
Archane Scholar Level 7
Red Wizard Level 10

I think that you have to be human to be a Red Wizard.  That's what the manual says anyway.  It would not be the first time the manual was wrong though.

As far as wizarding schools, I choose Necromancy.  The only good spell you lose is 8th level premonition which is made up for with Greater Shadow Conjuration at 9th level.

[Arkalezth]

Yes, you have to be human.



I also choose Necromancy usually, but for a Red Wizard, Evocation can be good, if you want a high DC on your Evocation spells.



Blackguard doesn't bring a lot to the build. It works better with Sorcerers, but with a Wizard, I'd take another thing.



BTW, shouldn't this build-specific questions be asked elsewhere, like in nwn2db.com, or in a new thread? I'm not the creator of the thread, but IMO, this would be better as a general advice for building, rather than be filled with these kind of questions. Some requests might be useful (i.e. how to make a good caster Wizard), but not as specific as Adam024 questions.

[Thorsson64]

I concur. This was meant to be generalist, rather than specific, the problem with which is that the latter may have some singular reason why A is better than B, even though 99% of the time B is better than A. The idea of the thread was to stop "n00bs" making the same mistakes as their forebears, not to be the last answer to everything (which couldn't even be possible without going to ~100 pages of posts).

[MANoob]

Thorsson64 wrote...

Bards don't have a good Fort Save so a Noxious Blast should be good enough against any non-SR Race. For SR Races I reckon the Warlock will be able to kill the Bard a good % of the time before the Bard gets to sing his Hymn, being as the Bard has to get to 20' while the Warlock hits from 130'. That's if the Bard even has True Seeing - there's a lot of spells he needs at level 3 and he can only take 5 to cover off all opponents.

130' is only with spear which will fail against SR unless it's vitrolic (and vitrolic is countered by enerdy immunity). So it's 20' hymn vs 30' 10d6+ blast (and 5 rounds flee the scene vs 60 rounds extended haste). I'm not seeing a big problem getting see invisibility for a bard - how many critical spells are at that level?

Druids, I agree the Warlock is in trouble unless he has Kaedrin's (Eldritch Glaive), providing the Druid is setup to fight Warlocks. The thing is that Warlocks don't need to be setup to fight a particular class. The only decisions you need to make are on invocations, and there aren't too many hard choices there.

I guess any druid should have at least one extended storm avatar in his spellbook.

But this is all PvP. PvM Warlocks are clearly superior.

Actually they are rather weak prior level 11 when they get to spam tentacles. An not that druid with a dino is weak for low-mid level PvM. At higher levels tentacles aren't that hot and warlock's DPR probably would get aced by hi-end melee builds.High level warlocks are good as AoE damage dealers and for damaging enemies with VERY high AC, but that's it.

P.S. Although we had some fun with an army of shadowsimed warlocks in teh old days

Modifié par MANoob, 22 août 2010 - 05:49 .

[Happycrow]

Thorsson64 wrote...

I concur. This was meant to be generalist, rather than specific, the problem with which is that the latter may have some singular reason why A is better than B, even though 99% of the time B is better than A. The idea of the thread was to stop "n00bs" making the same mistakes as their forebears, not to be the last answer to everything (which couldn't even be possible without going to ~100 pages of posts).

And it's invaluable for that purpose -- the principles are sound, and can be adapted to any campaign or server.  Props!

[Thorsson64]

MANoob wrote...

130' is only with spear which will fail against SR unless it's vitrolic (and vitrolic is countered by enerdy immunity).

Bards only get 4 6th level spells - I'm not convinced that they will use all 4 on Energy Immunites - there are at least 4 other spells that they need to consider - even if you pre-suppose that the Bard is a Drow or Yuan Ti.

[MANoob]

You don't have to cast 4 energy immunities, you'll do perfectly well with one - acid.

[Thorsson64]

MANoob wrote...

You don't have to cast 4 energy immunities, you'll do perfectly well with one - acid.

Rubbish. That pre-supposes you are going to fight a Warlock, but you have to think about all the other classes you might fight - including other Bards. This isn't about whether you can build a Bard that can kill Warlocks, it's about overall power against whatever you may face.

[MANoob]

That is only true if you prebuff with energy immunity, but you may as well cast it when you see your opponent,

[Thorsson64]

Except you don't, so that's at least one strike before you get your Energy Immunity up, probably two. And there's quite a lot of other short-term effects the Bard needs to get up at that point.

[The Fred]

If a Bard were to know s/he were to face a Warlock, yes, acid is a good one to take. Acid is also good generally because it's the least common (paradoxically, perhaps) so it's used more often because it's less likely to be resisted (though arguably, in a pure PvP setting, the common resistances of fire giants and winter wolves don't matter).

[Sir_Rule]

This is why I like 4E. With all the re-balancing, you can play any race or class you want without worrying about power builds and just worrying about a good build with plenty of options.



Bards can do damage simply by poking fun of the enemy's mom. It's brilliant!

[Thorsson64]

The Fred wrote...

If a Bard were to know s/he were to face a Warlock, yes, acid is a good one to take. Acid is also good generally because it's the least common (paradoxically, perhaps) so it's used more often because it's less likely to be resisted (though arguably, in a pure PvP setting, the common resistances of fire giants and winter wolves don't matter).

When we talk about power it must be in general, i.e. against all classes and PvM as well as PvP. In such circumstances Acid has to compete with Sonic (other Bards & Great Shout), Electricity (Stormlords & Druids) & Fire/Cold (a whole host of Arcane/Divine Spells). PvP (outside Arena stuff) you don't know what you're facing. But the Warlock doesn't care much, and that's why it's powerful.

[The Fred]

Well there's the potential for power, and then there's versetility. A wizard, for example, can load up with massively different spell combinations, and can make a pretty powerful setup for any situation. However, s/he can't make himself/herself more effective at one situation without losing potency in another. Warlocks might not have this potential, but they do have versetility, in that they can cover most of the bases with just a few invocations. The issue they have then is that if something does go wrong, they don't have that much to fall back on (I mean what if that Bard does have Acid Immunity, and racial SR?).

[Happycrow]

Skirmish it while invisibly spamming undead from a distance until the bard's worn out of nifty defenses -- then UMD it with stuff where SR isn't relevant. Might take you an epic hour and a half...

[Sir_Rule]

Oh man, I need to apologize. Earlier, I wrote something along the lines of "no power builds in 4E". Sorry about that, it's not exactly true. There are many ways to optimize your build in 4E actually, but simply in a more balanced fashion is what I should've said.

[Aathis]

As a new player I very much appreciate this thread.

[pewldo]

Agreed very nice conversations, civil, i got something out of most of it. Thanks..... Im late it seems

Modifié par pewldo, 10 juillet 2013 - 11:45 .