14 réponses à ce sujet

[khevan]

I've never beaten DA:O, having had a HD crash that got fixed just as ME2 came out, and I've been hooked on that game for the last six months or so.  But now I'm revisiting DA:O, and I'm starting a rogue Warden.  I'm just now hitting Lothering, so I'm still early in the game, but I'm finding that positioning for backstabs and watching my warden auto-backstab is somewhat boring.  Instead of restarting, I'm looking to kinda change up how I play, and I'm wondering if anyone else plays a hybrid melee / archer rogue, and if so, a good way to build the class.  Basically, think Legolas from LoTR, with his dual knives at close range, but the bow at a distance.

Mostly I'm looking at trying to open fights with a bow, then switch to melee as the range closes, while leaving Leliana and Wynne (when I get her) to be my main ranged damage dealers. 

So far, I've been leveling Dex and Cun fairly evenly, because of DW talent requirements, but not sure if I wanted to go all Cun later.  I'm thinking that going fairly even DEX/CUN with this type of character would be the most beneficial, but I'm wondering what more experienced players think.  All DEX?  All CUN for good backstab dmg and crits with a bow, or even DEX/CUN? 

Also, what's a good order to get talents, and which are must haves for the type of rogue I've got in mind?  I've already picked up Momentum and Combat movement for the backstabs, but haven't picked up any archery talents, and not much else in the way of DW talents. 

Thanks in advance!

PS:  I'm in no way good enough to play on the higher difficulties.  I'm playing on Normal, if that changes the advice.  Thanks again.

[Eudaemonium]

I agree with follis2: Concentarte on DEX. Get Melee Archer and Aim, then probably concentrate on the 3rd row (Scattershot): Scattershot itself is awesome for Crowd control and giving your rogue time to move in. Shattering shot (2nd on that row) is also good for armour breaking. Rapidshot is great early on (IMO) but fades in usefulness later, so its use will depend on where you are in the game. I also love Suppressing fire, since its useful and can be used at the same time as Aim.

RE: DW talents, get the first row up to the 3rd talent, don't bother with the 4th, since you're using daggers. You already have up to momentum, so you can leave it there if you want. My DW Rogue got Riposte for the extra close-combat stun, but that's really a playstyle preference.

As for Rogue talents, you have combat movement, so I'd spend the etra point on Coup de Grace - its's just really useful. Also get Stealth, since it'll allow you to get the initial Scattershot off easier and set-up the fight. Lockpicking is very useful, but I would almost recommend giving that to another character (Leliana would be easiest) and concentrating on yourself as a combat rogue. Lethality is a good talent for CUN rogues, but as a primary DEX rogue I don't think its really worth the 3 talent points to get it - I personally tend to find Below the Belt and Deadly Strike not all that useful.

As for Specialistions, I'd get Duelist - the Dueling mode is good for an Archer and Melee, and the melee talents will give you an extra edge. The second is up to you: Assassin would make you better in close combat, whereas Bard would give you a nice buff in both your 'modes' (as it were). I wouldn't recommend Ranger for this type of rogue, but that might just be me.

So to sum up, my recommendations are:

- Primary DEX, secondary CUN (say 2/1 per level).
- Rogue first line up to Coup de Grace
- Rogue 4th (Stealth) Line to Max.
- DW First line to 3rd (DW Expertise).
- DW third line to 3rd (Momentum: already have in your case)
- Archery first line to 2nd (Aim)
- Archery 3rd line to Max (Scattershot) [19 total talent points]
- Duelist for 1st spec [23 total talent points]
- Assassin or Bard for 2nd spec. (I don't use Bard much, but I tend only to put assassin to the 3rd talent, since Feast of the Fallen is not as useful as it sounds). [26-27 talent points total]

Btw, you start with 3 talent points at level 1, get 3 free through plot points, a further 4 from tomes, and then 1 per level up to a maximum of 25 [realistically 23-4]. That makes 33-4 total talent points. Whcih means you have about 6-8 free for other bits and pieces. SO:

OPTIONAL:
- Rogue 2nd line to 3rd (Lethality). Lethality also gives yo a nice bonus to critical chance. [3 talents]
- Rogue 3rd line to Max (Device Mastery) [4 talents]
- DW 2nd line to 2nd (Riposte) [2 talents]

You decide. Hope I was some help. This is just my personal experiences from playing. 

[Eudaemonium]

You have a point there, I'd forgotten about that. Most of the high-end Rogue gear has DEX bonuses (Felon's Coat, for example).

[khevan]

Wow, that was definately more than I expected. Thanks so much for the detailed advice.



With the endgame items leaning more towards +DEX bonuses, I'm thinking that a fairly even split between DEX and CUN would be a good idea, maybe leaning a bit towards DEX for defense, but with a good CUN score for a decent critical chance.



And getting to Scattershot is good advice. I meant to put this in my OP, but it was late, and I was tired, so I forgot (lol), but I was wondering between AoS and SS, because I knew I'd only be able to get one, while still working on the DW tree. AoS would be a good one hit opening, but Scattershot would slow the enemy down before they got to me, letting me hit 'em with more AoE spells and other ranged attacks before melee.



Thanks again for the advice!

[DapperDan77]

I found a thread about rogues that has a very detailed post about a hybrid melee/archer rogue. The guy seems to know his stuff too. Quoted from this thread, 7th post down.
http://www.gamefaqs....52882037?page=1

I'll just post my build and hope that it answers your questions. If you
have more just ask away. Now take note I took her up to 25 using the xp
exploits. Most people won't even get past 23 normally. Those extra 2
levels I felt justify my decision to increase my dex up to 26+4 instead
of the recommended 20+4. Also take note I played solo on normal. Feel
free to replace the 2nd specialization w/ ranger if you're in a party
and there's no ranger/animate dead using mage in the party yet. Feel
free to replace duelist w/ assassin if you're in a party and there's
already a ranger/animate dead using mage in the party or if you're
soloing on casual. Feel free to replace lifegiver w/ dusk ring and
spellward w/ heart of witherfang as well if you're in a party. If you
don't reach 25 simply reduce dex by 6 then cun. As for talents simply
remove whirlwind and remove some of the archery talents. As for skills
simply reduce the amount in coercion, trap making, herbalism or poison
making. I do set aside Morrigan as my potion **** and Zevran as my
poison and grenade bot but I didn't have anywhere else to put skill
points to so I peppered them into herbalism and poison making so I can
produce whatever I need , though not the best (no quiet death poison nor
potent health poultices) while I'm in an area where I can't change my
party.

Backstabber

race: city elf

specializations: bard + duelist (switch this to assassin if you're ok living w/ an 85% hit rate)

skills: combat training (4), survival (4), stealing (1), poison making (2), trap making (3), herbalism (3), coercion (3).

talents:

rogue:
-branch 1: dirty fighting, combat movement, coup de grace
-branch 2: below the belt, deadly strike, lethality
-branch 3: deft hands (enough to allow you to open every lock/disarm every trap you'll encounter)
-branch 4: all

bard: song of valor, distraction, song of courage

duelist/assassin/ranger: all

dual weapon:
-branch 1: dual weapon training, dual weapon finesse
-branch 2: dual striking, riposte
-branch 3: all

archery:
-branch 1: melee archer, aim
-branch 2: pinning shot, crippling shot
-branch 3: all

items
used: elemental balms vs certain enemies, health poultices, rock salve
against certain enemies, swift salve and incense of awareness always

tactics:
Scout in stealth. 1st attack outta stealth is a riposte to kill mages.
If there is no mage present I pick an archer. Use dual weapon sweep,
whirlwind and scattershot (switch to a bow, turn on aim then
scattershot, then switch back to dual daggers turn on momentum then
auto-attack) against mobs. VS bosses that can't be stunned/paralyzed,
start w/ shattering shot->crippling shot->below the belt->upset
balance then switch to dual daggers, turn momentum and pinpoint strike
then auto-attack. VS bosses who're deadly to engage in melee turn on
aim, shattering shot->crippling shot then turn on rapid shot and
pinpoint strike then auto attack. Hit and move often.

equipment:

weapons: rose's thorn (GM paralyze, 2 GM silverite/lightning) and tier 7 fang (M paralyze, 2 GM hale)
alternate weapons: far song and arrow of filth
amulet: spellward
belt: andruil's blessing
rings: key to the city and lifegiver
helmet: helm of honleath
gloves: red jenny seekers
boots: cadash stompers
armor: tier 3 warden commander armor

attributes w/o equipment and spec bonus: (take note I used all non-arcane tomes on myself)

str: 10+4
dex: 26+4
will: 14+4
mag: 12+2
cun: 95+5
con: 10+2

attributes w/ equipment and spec bonus: (this changes if you sub in heart of witherfang+dusk ring)

str: 10+4+6=20
dex: 26+4+2+10=42
will: 14+4+2+11=31
mag: 12+2+6=20
cun: 95+5+1+9=110
con: 10+2+16=28

Modifié par DapperDan77, 03 août 2010 - 08:09 .

[Last Darkness]

Ouch, goodluck

[Eudaemonium]

Why ouch? I've personally found this build (or a simialr build) to be pretty effective.

[crossover.attack]

 t's funny, I found myself in nearly the same situation as you (w/o the HD crash).  But after months of ME2, I found my play style and expectations had changed when I came back to DA this summer.  I see where you are coming from -- I also have an infiltrator mindset when it comes to playing my rogue now.  
All good advice above, but one thing to consider is whether or not you want to keep using Leliana as a main party member during most of the quests.  There is nothing wrong with using two rogues on normal, and she is certainly a compelling character at this point in the story.  I used her as a primary archer and my rogue a similar style to what you envision all the way through, occasionally replacing her with Shale.  The relevance?    AI controlled party members cannot play the assassin/sneaky/sniper/backstab role you want.  So if that's going to be anyone, it needs to be you.  You can't fill the archery tree and the backstab related skills you want until the end.  Leliana on the other hand, can play the turret-archer role quite well.  It's very easy to program her tactics to be Alistair's guardian angel, making the third row of her archery talents her first priorities and later adding the second line of skills (crit./arrow of slaying) to be activated on your command.  Use her tactics to make her fire on "target of Alistair".  That will keep her firing on the mob and keep a lot of heat off you as you stealth around to the back side for bow or dagger attacks.  If you intend on dumping Leliana and being the only archer in your party, skip the next paragraph and take the 3rd row of archery talents.

If you could take only one row of archery talents (2nd or 3rd), there is no real argument that the scattershot 3rd row offers more value than the arrow of slaying line.  But if Leliana is playing the annoying debilitator role for you already, you might have more fun taking the 2nd row arrow of slaying line.  It will give you the killshot satisfaction you are looking for.  The most likely style you will fall into is to send Alistair in to tank, Leliana and Morrigan/Wynne target the mob, and you assassinate any 1) enemy mages; 2) stragglers escaping the mob and targeting Leliana or your caster; 3) backstab/snipe the highest remaining enemy in the mob.  As a backstabber all you do is activate momentum and watch the hyper-active animation.  And since you only need 1 stamina to activate momentum, you can use your stamina on the costly 2nd row archery talents without regret.   

I'm just guessing, but if you are bored with the auto-bot backstabbing, you may  find redemption in the stealth, traps, and sniping.  Sadly, nothing touches momentum in terms of DPS, but the stealth and sniping can provide fun when you don't have to grind through an tough area.  I agree with the above that Dex is more valuable than cunning, however, since it's your first time through missing out on dialogue options or chests (even when they are full of crap) can be painful.  You are going to want a decent cunning score your first time through see the link At the end).  That's also another advantage of using Leliana in this configuration --- keep boosting her cunning score and she can be you unlocker until later in the game when your cunning score is higher (saving you the skill points in lockpicking).  It also is key to her Bard skills, which are definitely helpful, but more fun when another character is responsible for them.  Also, I would advise taking Duelist as your first specialization in this scenario.  Not for the skills themselves, but no matter what kind of rogue you run, duelist usually fits in as one of the two specializations.  By the time you get to level 14, you will know whether or not you like being a primary archer (take ranger) or melee (take assassin).  In fact, I don't know that I would invest in any talents in the specializations until after you have completed an archery row.   Just take their bonuses and move on until later.

Someone may have posted it above, but the link below to Discobird's "Rogue Mechanics..." answers a lot of questions about how your rogue works and is probably the most helpful thing I've ever read on this forum.

http://social.biowar...66/index/243304

[BooPi]

I had a lot of success by running Master Archer and Arrow of Slaying in the archery line. For the DW line, I stopped after getting Sweep, Riposte, and a few passives.

Generally, a fight would go like this: I would stealth crit, switch to a priority target and arrow of slaying, then switch back and critical shot and stealth crit again. By this time, the fight has probably turned into a melee, so I would chain Dirty Fighting and Riposte for backstabs. I figured a stun/backstab combo was as effective or more so than any of the upper tier DW talents, so no reason to take anything past Riposte and the passives for the attack bonuses.

I've had a lot of success with this strategy, but it's stamina intensive and it's not great for handling large numbers of enemies (though the amount of damage you can frontload at the start of a fight is insane).

General strategies were to use stealth and corners/line-of-sight to manage how many enemies you fight at once. Use traps and bombs for groups (lures are a great long-lasting area-of-effect stun that gives you an all-you-can-backstab buffet). Make sure you use your AoS, critical/stealth shots, and stuns/backstabs to hit low health or damage dealers first (mages, two-handers, elites). One thing to remember is that if your stuns are on cooldown, your bow actually does more damage than your daggers if you pumped dexterity. So only use daggers for stun/backstab combos, if you're out of stamina and autoattacking, use the bow. Also, Below The Belt will use your main weapon stats (even a bow) with a nearly instant animation. You can time it to spike your damage if your using your bow at close range.

I went for the requirements for third-level stealth first, then for AoS. After those requirements and 20 strength, I pumped dexterity for the ranged damage. With this latest patch, that'll help your dagger work too. I put Willpower at 25 too, (though I know most people say its worthless) because it gave me the stamina to dump all my abilities at the start of a fight to take out important targets like mages and elites.

It was actually a really fun character to play. Much more versatile than any other character I've played but a mage--you can hit & run, kite strong melee enemies, stun/backstab or AoS tougher targets, bomb/trap groups, etcetera. Definitely made the game fun for me. But you have to make sure you set good tactics with your party, or make liberal use of pause, because this character will take most of your attention.

Modifié par BooPi, 04 août 2010 - 12:11 .

[khevan]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. After planning out several variants on a workable build, I've decided that I can get what I want without specifically going for archery skills, at least not at first.

I've pretty much decided to go with a fairly typical CUN rogue build, but using a bow to open fights along with Leliana (as my dedicated archer), then switching to daggers as the enemies get closer. I tried this out on my squeaky new Dalish Elf rogue, and even though I'm just now getting to Ostagar, it just feels "right" for me.   I'm still planning on getting some Archery talents, probably AoS to complement Leliana's Scattershot (she'll also have AoS for the second volley, etc), but that won't be until mid-game at least. 

Again, thanks for the tips! Even if I didn't use your advice, I certainly considered it all.

Modifié par khevan, 04 août 2010 - 07:12 .

[crossover.attack]

I'd say you are spot on. Trying to play pure rogue archer from the start requires extreme patience and calm. Leveling up to Lethality on the top, momentum (immediately) on the bottom, and then the top row of dual wield talent (att. bonuses) before going for the bow talents will do a lot to increase your functionality and survivability. After that it's a choice whether to go max stealth or start taking your archery talents. The whole thing with stealth is that it's only super useful at rank 4, when you can stealth in and out of combat. Even more useful if you have Warden's Keep DLC. Anyway, I'd say you've figured it out.

[Siven80]

Its kinda the same way i specced Leliana in my last playthrough, and i found she was much more useful than she was from just sticking a bow on her and leaving her to miss a lot



Lelianas DLC was the starting point for me. She had a lot of the rogue talents (Coup de grace etc) dual wield training for when backstabbing and a few archer talents for long range. I then pretty much copied that into Origins , picked up a few more archer talents for situations like sniping enemy mages etc while picking up the lockpicking talents.



So when mobs get close she will switch to melee, stun them and then kill them with backstabs. I found the Hybrid rogue style in DAO to be great.

[Stealth2Kill]

DW talents you should get if you want to play dagger/dagger (I would recommend this because it's a better combination with archer skills since it is fast and lethal) :

- 1st line : up to the second (don't know the name of that talent, but don't get the third and the fourth)

- third line : get the first 3 so you have momentum



Imo you shouldn't waste more talent points in the DW school (these 5 are enough), and focus more on the archer/roque schools.