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Area building discussion: What makes a good area?


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#26
The Curt Jester

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MasterChanger wrote...

** I'm beginning to think that the only practical way of capturing that same feeling of geography, of one area leading to the next, in a PW setting with many exteriors is to use YATT, get your rivers, mountain ranges, swamps, etc. lined up, and then chop 'em up with overlap between the areas. I know people have done this on the scale of a few areas; has anyone done it across a huge world?


SoD does that manually.  We don't use YATT but we just load up an old area, chop of most of it and use that to start the new area.  The end result is that areas actually look like they area progressing from one to the other.  It's simple to do and doesn't take long.  In fact, I've tinkered around with YATT and after doing so, I've determined (for me at least) that just making the areas the old-fashioned way is much easier and less time-consuming.   YATT, I think, would be better if you don't have as clear an idea of what you want to make.  For instance, I can make a nice area with L3DT or World Builder (?), load it up with YATT and then import it into the toolset, but then I have to use the toolset to make it exactly what I want and to texture it.   It doesn't save me any time at all.

#27
dunniteowl

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I have to agree with the Curt Jester above. YATT/L3DT is a powerful and wonderful tool -- but if you have a clear idea in mind about what you want, then importing a greyscale image into YATT or some other tool similar is the way to go. In either case, both methods require of me a good deal more learning above and beyond being able with the NWN2 toolset. For me, they are an additional time sink without relative value. I already know what I wish an area to project and how it should look, so YATT provides me personally with no benefit. And I hate that. I think if I could sculpt and create in L3DT/YATT and import my maps that I've hand drawn for my game world, I'd be much happier. As it is, folks who want an area that has the terrrain features in general and who have a hard time doing those in the toolset will derive the greatest overall benefit from using those tools.

Just as an FYI, I'll be hooking up my scanner tomorrow. So those overland and environmental encounter charts will be scanned in the next couple of days and added to the School of Persistent World Building at the Citadel for all to peruse, use and make derivative tables from *(they are AD&D 1st/2nd charts,) so CR/Level might be off from current. Still the environments and expected creatures should be well worth the time to convert them.

dunniteowl



Great Stuff in this thread folks!

#28
PJ156

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I try to create area continuity with light, texture and the overall feel of the area. Where areas are geographically very close I have used landmarks such as a windmill that appear on both maps, I have found this is sufficient to link a map.

That said I have seen some of the linked map sets on the vault and I see the possibilities. It does however limit your play to an unfeasibly small real area. I don't know how I would manage that within the context of a story though I am certain the mods using this do this well. If I had time to play I would know.

I am working on interiors for my mod at the moment. I find filling space without crowding the area with tat very hard. I have started another thread on this.

A personal dislike for me (and DNO it seems) is huge empty indoor areas, even if you had a workforce eager to dig dungeons, underground areas would take a while to build. I cannot see people building corridors and functionless rooms for nothing.

My personal preference is for interiors that are tight (story wise) and fuctional. It makes for small dungeons but then I can have more of them.

PJ

#29
kamalpoe

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PJ156 wrote...

even if you had a workforce eager to dig dungeons, underground areas would take a while to build. I cannot see people building corridors and functionless rooms for nothing.

Give me a mage and a month, and I'll disintigrate you a dungeon.

#30
PJ156

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Image IPB Ah but where's the art in that?

I can see your point, magical means could be used, as could Umber hulks. Rough tunnels could be thrown up easily (or down?) but the tilers, the cladding, the pillars and the gold plate all of this takes time, Except I guess wishing could do it all for you.

I'm still a fan of little areas/dungeons.

PJ

#31
kamalpoe

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Color Scheme for lighting: maybe this is better as a tip. Ever notice how every movie poster and is blue and orange? Please stop Hollywood.

Anyway this matters to you as a builder because it's an example of the color wheel  at work. I picked that last link because halfway down the page is a very simple section on color harmony. You can pick up the basics here and make a go of color use very quickly. It also explains why everything in movies/tv is orange/blue nowadays. Basically, pick colors next to each other or opposite each other on the wheel. Or pick a mix that's in nature.

#32
The Fred

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Right, but when we're fighting yuan-ti in Samarach, shoudln't the jungle be tinged red, then?

#33
kamalpoe

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The Fred wrote...

Right, but when we're fighting yuan-ti in Samarach, shoudln't the jungle be tinged red, then?

Though I meant it more for decor, dress, and lighting, the yuan ti are not all green in the toolset. Holy guardians are red by default iirc. Usually there is a dominant color, and this is always going to be the environment since it's so much larger than the creatures.

More likely you'd use analogous colours for a creature versus their environment (camoflage). Or bright contrast with the environment (I'm poisonous, don't eat me). Or simply bright colors (I'm ready for sexy time). I'm guessing DNO will have an opinion on creature color given his day job.

#34
dunniteowl

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My day job is Unemployed. That said, I did work a lot with animals at a Zoo. I also am something of a wild nature boy, with almost half a century of observations of a personal nature. In a fantasy setting, nothing like experience to throw right out the window. :)

Many creatures in nature are going to have some sort of low contrast coloration to their Normal Environment. With intelligent creatures, this is pretty much moot with clothing, armors, tattoos, etc.

Even so, humanimals, when left to their own devices, tend to do their best to either blend in or stand out, depending on the situation. Most mammalian species (or something similarly distinguishable in this setting) will tend to have natural colorations that help it to blend in against (or within) it's natural setting. I can't tell you how many times people walked up to the Lion Enclosure, with him sitting stock-still, flattened to the ground (a LARGE tawny meat eater with a head the size of a Semi Tire) and stood there for like 4-8 seconds looking all over the cage for it -- and it was literally close enough to have eaten them if there was no cage!

For most animals, this is really the key. Stillness. Either as predator or prey, a low contrast color scheme can make all the difference.

Then you've got those Zebra, white and black zigzags. Best guess? The color pattern (and them being large herd animals) serves to create a series of alternating imagery on the eyes of the predator, making it hard to pick one out of the crowd when they are moving. If you can't tell the butt from the head, it makes selecting a specific prey hard to do.

How does a Grey Elephant blend in to the natural environment? He doesn't have to! Elephants have only one natural predator: Man. Everything else gets the hell out of their way.

Insects, birds and fish: Here there is much more variety. You have camoflage that serves to make them nearly invisible (adaptvie patterning and shape/form) to so dang bright you'd swear you were hallucinating. peacocks? Bright displays with large tail feathers that can fan out and up to do what? Most people think it's nothing more than a courting display -- but no, it's primarily a threat display. The feathers make the peacock loom much larger than it really is. Plus all those eyespots? Makes animals think (hypothetically speaking, no peacock's ever actually divulged the reasoning) that it's looking at them no matter where they are (in front of the creature anyway.)

So apply a bit of that to any animal colorations. Umber Hulks? Should look, both in color and shape of skin texture, pretty rocklike. Owlbears? Combine a bear's brown/black hide/fur with the normally subdued color pattern of one of the single most succesful raptors.



That whole bright color (I'm dangerous!) is also probably accurate. By that token, one might expect a cockatrice to be pretty brightly colored (Like the dilophosuar in Jurassic Park), not only as a warning, but to attract a direct stare. Yeah?

One thing I have noticed in my studies of animals and people is this: Nature abhors uniquity. What I mean by this is simple. Elephants have large ears. Do they help them hear or allow them to cool the blood? Both. Nature likes dual (or more) function in the adaptations animals have.

Zebras. Pattern to create confusion or natural air conditioning? Probably both.



So keep those things in mind when tinting and coloring creatures. Also, with fantasy creatures, it's a good idea to do a couple things: Get a monster manual for one (it usually has a fairly detailed description (in text) of the creatures) and also read up on mythological information about "historical" depictions and descriptions of mythical creatures. Some of what you take for granted about them will surprise you when reading.

So there you go, kamalpoe is right on target about me -- again.

dunniteowl

#35
dunniteowl

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Forgot to say, thanks for those links. Cool stuff.

dno

#36
kamalpoe

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colorwheel in action in the engine.

That screenshot was lit according to complementary colors. Purple - Green. The yellow and light blue are analogous colors to green. The critters that live there happen to have purple skin in official artwork, and I matched the purple light to the skin color of some artwork.

One thing not shown on the previous colorwheel page is there are a few other basic ways, bit more advanced.

#37
The Fred

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Cool stuff but there's a distinction between colouring creatures to look realistic and colouring areas to look cool. Both are important, but whereas the former will indeed likely use camoflauge, for the latter you're going to want some orange/blue or something.

kamalpoe wrote...

Holy guardians are red by default iirc.
...
Or bright contrast with the environment (I'm poisonous, don't eat me).


Well, long before Holywood was making people orange and backgrounds teal, Constable used to give the people he painted red jackets and things to make the green of the environment seem more green (basically the only thing I learnt from my Art GCSE Image IPB). I guess there's no real difference... though the massively widespread obsessional overuse of orange/blue contrast is kind of disturbing, especially now that I see it everywhere...

EDIT: P.S. Awesome screenshot.

Modifié par The Fred, 12 août 2010 - 10:39 .


#38
kamalpoe

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The Fred wrote...

Cool stuff but there's a distinction between colouring creatures to look realistic and colouring areas to look cool.

Well, the thread title is area building.... :D Creature coloring is actually off topic here. Thanks for the screenshot.

#39
dunniteowl

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Well, yes and no. It's not as On Topic as say, what you posted about area building with color, but sooner or later, an area's got to be 'populated.' nicht wahr? Though I am in general agreement. Specific Creature Tweaking and Coloring should be it's own subject.

dunniteowl

#40
The Fred

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I'd agree, it's a yes and no thing. Creature colouring is in general a bit off-topic, but in terms of how to colour creatures and areas so that one stands out from or blends in with the other, that's probably something to think about.

#41
kamalpoe

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Near final video from the area I've been showing. (there's a broken tile, I know)

video 1

video 2

#42
dunniteowl

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Spammer! Get him!

dno

:)

#43
Guest_Chaos Wielder_*

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Coloring areas is one of, if not the most important, things I consider when I'm in the planning stage--my swamps are brown/green, and colors deviating from that, then, become 'important' colors, etc. I value aesthetic consistency and continuity in areas, and I think it lends itself to a more "full" area.

#44
PJ156

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Chaos Wielder wrote...

Coloring areas is one of, if not the most important, things I consider when I'm in the planning stage--my swamps are brown/green, and colors deviating from that, then, become 'important' colors, etc. I value aesthetic consistency and continuity in areas, and I think it lends itself to a more "full" area.


I agree, I also belive that colours should be natural looking. We are used to brown swamps, so swamps should be brown/green. Deviating from this kind of naturalness, even in supposedly extra planar areas makes it hard for me to imerse myself in the mod. That said interiors are a place where you can do more with colour and not create an unatural feel. I think kamals advice on colour is good. I keep a colour wheel I stole of the wife next to the PC for this reason it is a useful tool particularly for interiors.

I think lighting is also very important, by which I mean environmental rather than point source. Maintaining day night settings across a group of areas holds the feeling of continuity acros different styles of area - town, marsh, forest etc.

As with CW I think planning the palette of colour (and light) in the module is an important first step as an over view over all areas and on individual areas.

Looking at Kamals pics make me realise I am not very good at fantasy in areas though. I always want a church to look like the ones I have been in, a marsh to look like the one I saw on the train into Pappenburg. That's all good but these are not the stuff of fantasy. Need to get some me some more indoor plants Image IPB.

PJ

Modifié par PJ156, 13 août 2010 - 07:51 .


#45
Guest_Chaos Wielder_*

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Lighting for exteriors can be very, *very* difficult. Anduraga threw together a nice prefab list of good settings here: http://nwvault.ign.c...s.Detail&id=532

I recommend folks to check it out.



With fantasy lighting, you can go a bit crazy*. My suggestion would be to look at paintings and think of the colors/trees that you see and how you might be able to emulate that. NWN2 area design is, if anything, an art, and I think it should be treated like that. I don't have the time, really, to do really involved areas anymore, lol, but I remember my thoughts from the time: focus, colors and always use the 100% brush(it looks ugly if you blend, unless you really know what you're doing).



Shameless pic: http://picasaweb.goo...888542315424290

#46
kamalpoe

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Anduraga's daynights are great.
Ovocean's daynight cycles are excellent as well. pic

vault list of daynights. They are all good.

#47
The Fred

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Chaos Wielder wrote...
Shameless pic: http://picasaweb.goo...888542315424290


Nice pic. Are those cherry blossoms? Where did you get cherry blossoms from?

#48
rjshae

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Has anybody come up with a good method of making an ocean front waterline? The water paint tool works fine for lakes, pools and placid rivers, but the task creating a tumultuous sea front seems to be all but impossible. About the best I could do was to throw in some splash placed effects at the base of a cliff. Also a large ocean area (stretching off to the "horizon") looks unnatural because of the repeated tiling of the wave pattern.

#49
kamalpoe

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The Fred wrote...

Chaos Wielder wrote...
Shameless pic: http://picasaweb.goo...888542315424290


Nice pic. Are those cherry blossoms? Where did you get cherry blossoms from?

Cherry trees are in MotB. The flowering one is under spring.

#50
dunniteowl

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When it comes to fantasy design, you have to get weird. And I mean, over the edge, stepped off the precipice weird. Hey look! I can fly!

And one of the best places for this is fantasy literature and old movies. Heaven's Gate? Sure, Heaven could look like that. Why not Asgard? Where is Asgard? It's in the clouds, yeah? So what would it be like to, quite literally, walk amongst the clouds in a land that also is home to Valhalla?

A frozen landscape? Sure, we got those. Ever see Labyrinth? Escher was the inspiration for that with all those varying layers and angles of gravity (sadly, no matter how insane I might be, I cannot replicate that in the toolset.)

When it comes to building in the toolset to make an area, I often use real world examples for forests, swamps, desert, rolling hills, etc. Lucky me, I've walked literally thousands of miles over the last 45 years or so (I wasn't doing much hiking at 4, but I toddled about a bit.)

Bu~~u~~ut, if you wanna go for something magical, you sometimes have to play around a bit.

In Misery Stone, there's a great Dream Area that is overlit with bloom, giving it this dreamy, faerie like quality. It's perfect. It's bright and cheery looking with green everywhere and this halo effect on everything.

I tend to play also with lighting and fog, because you can convey quite a bit of atmosphere by messing with the atmosphere.

Again, those are the sorts of things you really have to have an idea in mind for, otherwise you're literally stumbling around in the dark (which is it's own possible feature in a module area.) Setting the mood, intentionally, is something that is important. Using the color wheel is good for getting a technical feel for things, but sometimes, the idea you have to convey is not about harmonizing the warm to cool, it's all about juxtaposition. Garish colors, high contrasts, vivid and stark and you can convey an image of stress, insanity, or terror. Soft bloom, muted colors, drab scenery and you give it the boring same old same old.

A great example of this is actually "Joe Versus the Volcano." In his work area, it's garishly stark and badly lit in a bright way. When he gets out of there and heads out on his adventure, everything has a more soft and dreamy, though vibrant feel to it through the use of color.

Another really good example of fantasy coloring is the quintessential Must Watch At Least Once Movie: The Wizard of Oz.

Real life in Kansas is black and white, drab and dreary (and of course, it's the Dustbowl at it's height.) When she is knocked out and travels to Oz, the colors are bright, vibrant. In some places the colors are dynamically sharp and at other times (like in the Witch's Castle) dark, drab and dreary. Of course, the idea was to showcase color film, but it also points out the idea that in real life, we typically (it is said) dream in black and white and life is in color. Oz reverses that. Life is dull and unimaginative in black and white, and her dream is in bright, vivid color.



So what does any of this have to do with building an area and making it look good? Pretty much everything. There's lots of good stuff in these pages by several others. Me? I'm pretty decent in the toolset, but I am more a creative writer than anything else. Plus a photographer. So I look at things a bit different due to that. I'm pretty weird as it is. I've already stepped over the precipice and have been looking back for a long time now. Hope anything I provide gives you a bit of a different perspective on building your areas.

dunniteowl