41 réponses à ce sujet

[Maverick827]

Lyssistr wrote...

jaikss wrote...

Imo the problem with DAO boss fights wasnt that they werent complex enough,just that they were simply too easy.Even the most complex boss can become a tank&spank if you dont actually need to apply specific tactics in order to beat it.

well, if they're tank & spank, they're either not complex, tactically-wise, or the gear available in-game before the boss is way overpowered and trivializes the boss fight to tank & spank.
 Without out-gearing a fight, complex tactics is pretty much equivalent to non-tank-n-spank.
 

Most encounters in this game, regardless of how overpowered gear is, are gear reliant.  In this regard, BioWare has the typical MMO "gear check" in place.  I mentioned Ser Cauthrian hitting very hard...well, you better stack up on armor and Rock Salves.  The High Dragon?  You better grab some fire resistance.

Having to prepare for a boss with consumables is really the only meaning for consumables; how many people use the resistance balms?  This is actually great design, just not on its own.  The boss needs more things to do than be more skilled than players at the art of the behind-the-scenes damage calculation, but means with which the player can mitigate that are certainly welcomed strategic elements.

Modifié par Maverick827, 03 août 2010 - 10:57 .

[Haexpane]

Maverick827 wrote...

   A boss encounter should involve utilizing the environment, intricate positioning, and the use of abilities in new and interesting ways, not just “do what you would on any creature, only for a little longer.”

Though this will probably prompt a /**** shotgun from these forums, you should look towards MMO boss design.

Well I think MMOs are a great place to draw design ideas from because they have millions of users doing real time testing.

But the IRONY is MMO bosses USED to be just like DAO bosses, "hit harder, or have a bunch of mages"

Vagrant Story is an older game w/ some cool Boss ideas (only certain weapons or magic or affinities work etc..)

I just hope they dont turn DA2 bosses into Bayonetta / Devil May Cry combo nonsense

[Haexpane]

Kileyan wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

There's nothing wrong with pausing.

Don't get defensive, it was just an illustration of why MMO boss fights seem harder and more intricate, but when pausing is introduced, they aren't really all that complicated, special or difficult. You can't use MMO style bosses to make a fight in ths game hard.

In no way do I want this game MMO'd and pausing removed. I like pausing constantly, even if just to prove to myself I can do something better and more tactically to save using a heal potion, even though I have 47 heal potions I never use:)

Trust me, the last thing I want is a dance dance revolution game of replaying battles over and over until I click all the right buttons in the right order and beat the boss. Pausing is fine:)

I agree with everything you said, however Demon's Souls is a game that illustrates why NO PAUSE can work really well. Especially in boss battles

[Haexpane]

Malanek999 wrote...

The Broodmother had a bit to it, tentacles couldn't attack when you stood on the rock, multiple waves of dark psawn. Caridan or Branka used the Lyrium veins which you could exhaust. The arch demon moved out of melee range which meant you might need to use (and potentially repair) the balista. There was some thought put into the boss fights.

I agree with that, but with the Archdemon, if you used the Balista, it became a bit too easy

[Haexpane]

Half the board would prefer you just TALK THE BOSS out of the battle and get XP for romancing him

[freche]

One of the reasons I think many of the battles are just so tank & spank is that DA is not high fantasy, it's more like medieval times with limited magic & monsters, at least as much as we have seen this far.
And in such environment people don't have firewalls that moves towards an intruder built in their homes, normal people don't transform into another form to start a new phase and so on.
Therefor they rely a lot on mages and knockdowns to make the fight "harder".
But with that said I totally agree that they could for sure make many of the fights more interesting and still keep the dark fantasy feeling.

Modifié par freche, 03 août 2010 - 11:43 .

[Demx]

Haexpane wrote...

Half the board would prefer you just TALK THE BOSS out of the battle and get XP for romancing him

Talking the boss out of a battle might be interesting, but count me out on romancing.

[Celticon]

Well to be honest, there really isn't much of a fix. This is a game heavily dependent on statistics. Only half of the fight depends on user input, the rest is all on your party's build/gear. You can't change much without introducing a lot of variables into the game. And having a pause feature definitely makes things easier.

In fighting games you have to block or dodge attacks, and aim/time your moves so that they hit. Or button mash, if the above is too tough for the player. 

In shooters you have to move, take cover, and aim at the bosses' weak points or minions. The Tomb Raider series had some particularly tough fights.

Until DA hybridizes some other kind of gameplay, you're not going to see much change in boss fights apart from artificially boosting the difficulty (via higher boss HP/Damage/resistance, more minions/traps etc).

Modifié par Celticon, 04 août 2010 - 02:16 .

[Maverick827]

I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. As I have pointed out, MMOs are a good metric of boss encounters, and they are just as if not more reliant on statistics.

Now, under the umbrella of variables, the argument regarding group composition and boss encounters is a valid one, and perhaps intricate boss mechanics might forced groups into a required tank/healer/dps/dps paradigm. That would of course be undesirable, but I believe much improvement can be made without any sacrifices.

[Vicious]

The soul-drinking Pride Demon from Awakening was pretty great.



In DA:O the only one that was decent was the Brood Mother, really.



Even the Archdemon wasn't much of a challenge. He was, in fact, even easier than the other Dragons i'd fought to that point.

[Danjaru]

I felt that many of the battles were quite difficult (although I played all my playthroughs on nightmare), on bosses I had to keep crowd control and position and taunt and whatnot to get through it 1 or 2 slipups and I'd be dead (on some of them). But yes, they should try to make them a little different as many of the bosses ended up in the same rotation of skills.

One thing I hated though was that Melee characters got the shaft. On big bosses they kept being thrown around, pushed aside and tossed in the air (by dragons) making two handed sword the only viable melee dpser (using Indominable) making Melee rogues or dual wield warriors much less effective than others in some boss fights.

Modifié par Danjaru, 04 août 2010 - 02:40 .

[MikeLloy]

 To the OP,

L2bloodmagic/paralyze/freeze/many other skills that would allow you to disable and ogre or high dragon while your melee hits on it.

**** l2play before complaining.

[Maverick827]

That was a remarkably small portion of my post, and an even smaller portion of my entire point.

Thank you for the bump.

[MonkeyKaboom]

Haexpane wrote...

Half the board would prefer you just TALK THE BOSS out of the battle and get XP for romancing him

LOL because its true...

Honestly not to flame the thread, but this is exactly the reason why what they did with ME2 is so great.  Granted there's still only so much that can be done with boss mechanics, still the more open and intensive fighting allows the class abilities and such be more fully developed and meaningful.  Granted that then requires a greater input from player skill and less on stats.  Which most here seem to hate.  Honestly there isn't a lot of difference between ME2 and some MMO's in terms of how the fighting is more alive.  They just took it to cover and guns as opposed to stay out the poison clouds....

[MikeLloy]

no but seriously

you come here complaining ****s too easy and bland and in the same post you state that the dragon is too hard,

quit contradicting yourself.

[Maverick827]

MikeLloy wrote...

no but seriously
you come here complaining ****s too easy and bland and in the same post you state that the dragon is too hard,
quit contradicting yourself.

Where did I say that the High Dragon is too hard?  I'm not going to bother to wait for you to try to point it out, because I never said that.

In fact, I believe I specifically said that it was annoying on melee characters, and that annoying is not difficult.

Please post in a more constructive manner.

[Haexpane]

IDK why people think the Brood mother was hard



At least the Archdemon battle takes a while, even tho it's kinda easy. I didn't even Cone of Cold on that battle