201 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolverfrog]

I'm going to cure it in Mass Effect 3.

[TheShadowWolf911]

i wish to cure it as well

[K_Sinner]

Genophage was a huge mistake, it actually can be viewed as a war crime. If fact, genophage is a form of genocide since it "imposed measures intended to prevent births within the group" (quote taken from Article 2 of 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide). The Salarians are criminals, and their reasons don't matter.

Modifié par K_Sinner, 03 août 2010 - 11:10 .

[K_Sinner]

Double post

Modifié par K_Sinner, 03 août 2010 - 11:09 .

[AClockworkMelon]

Yeah, I'm shocked that more people don't see it as a war crime. That's all it is. It's like justifying torture- you can't do it.

[K_Sinner]

Worst of all, the Salarians have reached the 8th (final) stage of genocide - denial: "The perpetrators... deny that they committed any crimes..." (quote from a briefing paper called "The 8 Stages of Genocide" which was presented shortly after the Rwanda genocide and much of the analysis is based on why that genocide occurred). The document also suggests a preventive measure: "The response to denial is punishment by an international tribunal or national courts".



If we apply it to ME universe, I say the Salarians should be put to trial by the Council. Since Salarians are members of the Council, my opinion is that excluding them from the number of Council Races would be an adequate punishment.

[Whatever42]

Did anyone actually listen to Mordin and Wrex?



Krogan live a thousand years or more. They have astronomically high birthrates (they lay eggs, no live births). This means that the only way to control their population is constant, unrelenting, all-out war.



The genophage and Wrex are the best thing to ever happen to the Krogan. Obviously, I can't debate it properly here, because no spoilers, but you really, really need to pay attention to Mordin about what the genophage does and listen to wrex and the other krogan about what their culture was and what its becoming.

[K_Sinner]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Did anyone actually listen to Mordin and Wrex?

Krogan live a thousand years or more. They have astronomically high birthrates (they lay eggs, no live births). This means that the only way to control their population is constant, unrelenting, all-out war.

The genophage and Wrex are the best thing to ever happen to the Krogan. Obviously, I can't debate it properly here, because no spoilers, but you really, really need to pay attention to Mordin about what the genophage does and listen to wrex and the other krogan about what their culture was and what its becoming.

The Salarians actually gave krogan weapons and technology, since they were hoping to use krogan as soldiers. If it wasn't for the salarians, krogan wouldn't have even left their homeworld, let alone going to war with other races. They would have developed naturally, and their birthrate would have been naturally adjusted through time.

Everything that happened to krogan was salarians' fault from the very beginning.

[AntiChri5]

And if they hadnt the indoctrinated Rachni would have killed everything between them and the Citadel then let the Reapers in.

[Whatever42]

K_Sinner wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Did anyone actually listen to Mordin and Wrex?

Krogan live a thousand years or more. They have astronomically high birthrates (they lay eggs, no live births). This means that the only way to control their population is constant, unrelenting, all-out war.

The genophage and Wrex are the best thing to ever happen to the Krogan. Obviously, I can't debate it properly here, because no spoilers, but you really, really need to pay attention to Mordin about what the genophage does and listen to wrex and the other krogan about what their culture was and what its becoming.

The Salarians actually gave krogan weapons and technology, since they were hoping to use krogan as soldiers. If it wasn't for the salarians, krogan wouldn't have even left their homeworld, let alone going to war with other races. They would have developed naturally, and their birthrate would have been naturally adjusted through time.

Everything that happened to krogan was salarians' fault from the very beginning.

We're in spoiler territory. But no one disputes who's fault it is. I'm suggesting that the genophage is good for Krogan society. All I want you to do is listen carefully to what Wrex is doing and listen to some of the other Krogan about how its affecting their attitudes. And then compare that to Krogan history. 

[AntiChri5]

Actually sorry, that is off topic and not really relevant.



This thread is about discussing Mordins genophage adaptation and the original Genophage.

[K_Sinner]

Yeah, sorry for going a little too far. Got a bit too excited

Modifié par K_Sinner, 03 août 2010 - 12:33 .

[AntiChri5]

Thats the way it is with history. (even fictional).



You can trace the causes back for so long in an effort to see what is really justified. Eventually you can wind up on another issue entirely.

[K_Sinner]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Thats the way it is with history. (even fictional).

You can trace the causes back for so long in an effort to see what is really justified. Eventually you can wind up on another issue entirely.

Good point.

Anyway, I do not pity the krogan, I do not support the genophage either. I was simply trying to analyze the genophage phenomenon impartially, judging only from objective evidence.

[shinyblacklatexkitty]

Humanity needs a genophage/retrovirus/nanobots/SOMETHING to save it from itself... It's the only way our own climate change could be stopped really, everything else fails because of the sheer inertia needed and powerful commercial interests.

optimumpopulation.org (facebook) is a good site, supported by Sir David Attenborough as well as many other educated, rational thinkers, but doesn't do much more than try raise awareness really... I think we are probably doomed as a race because we aren't willing to make these kind of hard decisions even when no one actually has to die...

www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=2 (alternate version) (individual country selector)

Really I think the whole krogan thing is a good metaphor for humanity, with the explosive population growth, violence, nuclear war etc (rather than any other kind of alien weapon it makes it rather noticable and something people can better relate to). We're going to have our own wars over water and food in the future I'm sure, maybe not in our lifetimes but you don't have to look too far to see the trend.

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 03 août 2010 - 01:28 .

[AClockworkMelon]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Did anyone actually listen to Mordin and Wrex?

Krogan live a thousand years or more. They have astronomically high birthrates (they lay eggs, no live births). This means that the only way to control their population is constant, unrelenting, all-out war.

The genophage and Wrex are the best thing to ever happen to the Krogan. Obviously, I can't debate it properly here, because no spoilers, but you really, really need to pay attention to Mordin about what the genophage does and listen to wrex and the other krogan about what their culture was and what its becoming.

Tough cookies. The Salarians can reap what they sow. I haven't played ME2 so maybe I'm missing out on stuff but the existence of Wrex indicates that the Krogan are an intelligent species worthy of personhood. I can't imagine an advanced culture like we see in ME not having rules of war and biological and genetic warfare are almost certainly off-limits. 

[Kid_SixXx]

History is written by the victors and criticized by people that don't take time to analyze the counterpoints.

I seriously doubt that anyone would begrudge the Salarians in hindsight for releasing the Genophage should a full picture of the alternity of the Krogan running amok and unchecked through the galaxy were clearer, especially if that scenario had the Krogan  overwhelming the combined might of the Citadel races and eventually finding their way through the Charon relay to attack Earth.

Scary since the timeline might have the Krogan hitting us way before mankind discovered Prothean tech.  Earth would've have stood a chance.

Okeer probably gives the most convincing argument about why the Genophage was a necessary evil.

I think that the people that go "Awww, poor Krogan" or "Awww, poor Rachni" don't really have a good grasp on just how dangerous those threats were and think that way because those threats never got the chance to endanger Earth.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 03 août 2010 - 01:25 .

[Nerevar-as]

Did they even try to deal with the Blood Rage gene? Acording to the codex, before they nuked themselves Krogan were not as violent (it might not mean much, but it is something), so rather than updating Genophage they could have reduced their violent impulses.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Nope. Genophage was right under all given circumstances. As Mordin said: "Best Logical Choice!"

[Kroesis-]

K_Sinner wrote...

Genophage was a huge mistake, it actually can be viewed as a war crime. If fact, genophage is a form of genocide since it "imposed measures intended to prevent births within the group" (quote taken from Article 2 of 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide). The Salarians are criminals, and their reasons don't matter.

United Nations' treaties have no impact on the wider Galactic community. That's akin to trying to apply an English Bylaw to the entire world.

In any case, the Genophage is a part of being a Krogan, even if it is forced upon them. It's a part of their history and culture, a living Korgan is a survivor and warrior from birth. A sudden removal by 'cure' would cause a lot more issues for the Krogan than maintaining the Genophage or even slowly allowing them to adapt and overcome it.
At least the Salarians didn't choose the option of complete eradication.

[Kroesis-]

Kid_SixXx wrote...
I seriously doubt that anyone would begrudge the Salarians in hindsight for releasing the Genophage should a full picture of the alternity of the Krogan running amok and unchecked through the galaxy were clearer, especially if that scenario had the Krogan  overwhelming the combined might of the Citadel races and eventually finding their way through the Charon relay to attack Earth.

Scary since the timeline might have the Krogan hitting us way before mankind discovered Prothean tech.  Earth would've have stood a chance.

Would the Krogan have been able to activate the Charon relay from another point?

[Whatever42]

AClockworkMelon wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Did anyone actually listen to Mordin and Wrex?

Krogan live a thousand years or more. They have astronomically high birthrates (they lay eggs, no live births). This means that the only way to control their population is constant, unrelenting, all-out war.

The genophage and Wrex are the best thing to ever happen to the Krogan. Obviously, I can't debate it properly here, because no spoilers, but you really, really need to pay attention to Mordin about what the genophage does and listen to wrex and the other krogan about what their culture was and what its becoming.

Tough cookies. The Salarians can reap what they sow. I haven't played ME2 so maybe I'm missing out on stuff but the existence of Wrex indicates that the Krogan are an intelligent species worthy of personhood. I can't imagine an advanced culture like we see in ME not having rules of war and biological and genetic warfare are almost certainly off-limits. 

I wish I could have a proper debate here. You're missing out on the "big picture". Play ME2!

[DOYOURLABS]

I don't feel bad. As mordin said, uplifting the krogan was like "giving nuclear weapons to cave men" and that's what happend. The krogan weren't ready for space and were too violent.

[tmk]

AClockworkMelon wrote...
Tough cookies. The Salarians can reap what they sow. I haven't played ME2 so maybe I'm missing out on stuff but the existence of Wrex indicates that the Krogan are an intelligent species worthy of personhood. I can't imagine an advanced culture like we see in ME not having rules of war and biological and genetic warfare are almost certainly off-limits. 

What exactly have they sown? You realize that before the Krogan were uplifted, they still had 99.9% mortality rate due to infighting and natural factors? All those krogan that are never born due to the genophage, would be born only to die violently shortly thereafter. Even now, with their race on the verge of extinction, they can't stop killing each other.

[shinyblacklatexkitty]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

As mordin said, uplifting the krogan was like "giving nuclear weapons to cave men"

Humans with crinkly foreheads and humps.

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 03 août 2010 - 01:59 .