201 réponses à ce sujet

[Matroska]

shinyblacklatexkitty wrote...

Humanity needs a genophage/retrovirus/nanobots/SOMETHING to save it from itself... It's the only way our own climate change could be stopped really, everything else fails because of the sheer inertia needed and powerful commercial interests.

optimumpopulation.org (facebook) is a good site, supported by Sir David Attenborough as well as many other educated, rational thinkers, but doesn't do much more than try raise awareness really... I think we are probably doomed as a race because we aren't willing to make these kind of hard decisions even when no one actually has to die...

www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=2 (alternate version) (individual country selector)

Really I think the whole krogan thing is a good metaphor for humanity, with the explosive population growth, violence, nuclear war etc (rather than any other kind of alien weapon it makes it rather noticable and something people can better relate to). We're going to have our own wars over water and food in the future I'm sure, maybe not in our lifetimes but you don't have to look too far to see the trend.

You should, if you haven't already, read Brave New World Revisited by Aldous Huxley. He had a lot to say about over population leading to the world eating its own legs off. Nowadays we talk about carbon footprints and stuff like that, but people tend to forget that it's only an issue because of the crippling overpopulation of the world.

[Whatever42]

Teclo wrote...

shinyblacklatexkitty wrote...

Humanity needs a genophage/retrovirus/nanobots/SOMETHING to save it from itself... It's the only way our own climate change could be stopped really, everything else fails because of the sheer inertia needed and powerful commercial interests.

optimumpopulation.org (facebook) is a good site, supported by Sir David Attenborough as well as many other educated, rational thinkers, but doesn't do much more than try raise awareness really... I think we are probably doomed as a race because we aren't willing to make these kind of hard decisions even when no one actually has to die...

www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=2 (alternate version) (individual country selector)

Really I think the whole krogan thing is a good metaphor for humanity, with the explosive population growth, violence, nuclear war etc (rather than any other kind of alien weapon it makes it rather noticable and something people can better relate to). We're going to have our own wars over water and food in the future I'm sure, maybe not in our lifetimes but you don't have to look too far to see the trend.

You should, if you haven't already, read Brave New World Revisited by Aldous Huxley. He had a lot to say about over population leading to the world eating its own legs off. Nowadays we talk about carbon footprints and stuff like that, but people tend to forget that it's only an issue because of the crippling overpopulation of the world.

Fortunately, the U.N. predicts world population will start dropping in the middle of this century. Of course, that will create an economic collapse and chaos since our financial system is fueled by expanding debt. But hey, no one ever said this would be easy!

[Kid_SixXx]

Kroesis- wrote...

Kid_SixXx wrote...
I seriously doubt that anyone would begrudge the Salarians in hindsight for releasing the Genophage should a full picture of the alternity of the Krogan running amok and unchecked through the galaxy were clearer, especially if that scenario had the Krogan  overwhelming the combined might of the Citadel races and eventually finding their way through the Charon relay to attack Earth.

Scary since the timeline might have the Krogan hitting us way before mankind discovered Prothean tech.  Earth would've have stood a chance.

Would the Krogan have been able to activate the Charon relay from another point?

No, but we know from the Rachi Wars that the partner of a primary relay doesn't need to be active in order to establish one way travel to a system; you just need the partner relay activated in order to go back the way you came.

The Krogan could activate the Charon relay after they arrived in our solar system to return home.

Krogan invaders probably wouldn't show the restraint that the Council races showed in re activating unmapped mass relays given that they'd have the numbers, technology, miltant philosophy, and longevity to believe that they could handle any opposition the galaxy had to offer.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 03 août 2010 - 02:12 .

[JBean]

monkeycamoran wrote...

JBean wrote...
btw i hate when ppl use this excuse.  movies and television can make ppl feel emotional, etc.  why would games be any diff. especially considering how fast they've evolved.  saying 'it's just a game' belittles games in general.  if gamers dont take it seriously as form of entertainment on the lvl of movies, etc, then honestly how can we expect anyone else (like Roger Ebert) to take it seriously?

It's an individual response when a movie or a memorable TV scene evokes emotion. I however do not feel the need to feel angry at NPC choices because I feel powerless even to chide them for their past actions. In fact, I don't feel anything at all to the genophage considering that the gravity people place on that issue is too much diluted by the epic shoot-em up nature of the entire ME series. There is no novel wisdom being given by Bioware, and you can find much deeper approaches to consequences of biological warfare outside of games.

You realize that I wasn't discussing the lack of emotion to a game, but just that you said, "just a game."  I honestly don't care whether or not mass effect affected you lol.  completely missed my point.

[Kroesis-]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

No, but we know from the Rachi Wars that the partner of a primary relay doesn't need to be active in order to establish one way travel to a system; you just need the partner relay activated in order to go back the way you came.

The Krogan could activate the Charon relay after they arrived in our solar system to return home.

Good point, forgot about that! Although would the fact that it was encased in a lot of ice have caused any issues?

Modifié par Kroesis-, 03 août 2010 - 02:22 .

[Marzillius]

Nope, I'm only pissed that Paragon means that you are anti-genophage. I agree on the genophage and I always have to go neutral when the subject comes up.

[Sitrol]

"We're better off with a leader who respects traditions."

Screw that man...Wrex's plan is much better.Yeah the genophage made me a bit angry, but if you think of it:The Krogans started the rebellions, so they had to be stopped, or else everyone would be dead right now.And with Wrex's plan about strengthening the race as a whole will surely make the Krogan stronger,and more able to survive.

[Kid_SixXx]

Kroesis- wrote...
Good point, forgot about that! Although would the fact that it was encased in a lot of ice have caused any issues?

Knowing the Krogan, the solution to that problem would've been, "conquer this system and establish colonies -> worry about chipping away ice on relay later."

Humans eventually got the Charon relay up and running so I doub't it would've posed a significant problem for the Krogan invaders.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

It really made me mad in the first game because I liked Wrex so much. It even carried into my first ME2 playthrough, I didn't like Mordin very much because of it. My dad was all for the genophage (he watched me play) and I pretty much thought he was completely being narrow minded because it is a war crime.



Then, I look at it again, and I see my own country marched Indians to death. Now that was completely wrong, but let's not treat "war crime" as this holy thing. People who win write history, excuse it.



The genophage is evil. Is the least evil thing you can do? You know, honestly, I'm conflicted. Trying to look at it without my preference for Krogan like Wrex...I can see why the Salarians did it and why the Krogan are mad about it.



I think I would've unleashed the genophage myself.



Then hated myself for it.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

Kid_SixXx wrote...
I seriously doubt that anyone would begrudge the Salarians in hindsight for releasing the Genophage should a full picture of the alternity of the Krogan running amok and unchecked through the galaxy were clearer, especially if that scenario had the Krogan  overwhelming the combined might of the Citadel races and eventually finding their way through the Charon relay to attack Earth.

Scary since the timeline might have the Krogan hitting us way before mankind discovered Prothean tech.  Earth would've have stood a chance.

Would the Krogan have been able to activate the Charon relay from another point?

No, but we know from the Rachi Wars that the partner of a primary relay doesn't need to be active in order to establish one way travel to a system; you just need the partner relay activated in order to go back the way you came.

The Krogan could activate the Charon relay after they arrived in our solar system to return home.

Krogan invaders probably wouldn't show the restraint that the Council races showed in re activating unmapped mass relays given that they'd have the numbers, technology, miltant philosophy, and longevity to believe that they could handle any opposition the galaxy had to offer.

I'm pretty sure that both need to be active for either one to work.

[Sigma Tauri]

JBean wrote...

monkeycamoran wrote...

JBean wrote...
btw i hate when ppl use this excuse.  movies and television can make ppl feel emotional, etc.  why would games be any diff. especially considering how fast they've evolved.  saying 'it's just a game' belittles games in general.  if gamers dont take it seriously as form of entertainment on the lvl of movies, etc, then honestly how can we expect anyone else (like Roger Ebert) to take it seriously?

It's an individual response when a movie or a memorable TV scene evokes emotion. I however do not feel the need to feel angry at NPC choices because I feel powerless even to chide them for their past actions. In fact, I don't feel anything at all to the genophage considering that the gravity people place on that issue is too much diluted by the epic shoot-em up nature of the entire ME series. There is no novel wisdom being given by Bioware, and you can find much deeper approaches to consequences of biological warfare outside of games.

You realize that I wasn't discussing the lack of emotion to a game, but just that you said, "just a game."  I honestly don't care whether or not mass effect affected you lol.  completely missed my point.

No, you missed my point completely. Beginning my statements here with "I feel" is merely a courtesy. I covered your point about treating games with a degree of seriousness in the same medium as movies and books. I would treat it with that much gravity if Bioware had a message, but it's diluted by the fact the game's still made for entertainment. I rarely take games in such a high regard (really, you're not even talking about the equivalent of Torment), and I certainly wouldn't take all of Mass Effect into that level. It's really not the audience's fault because they wouldn't make illusions about the game.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 03 août 2010 - 02:50 .

[Kid_SixXx]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
I'm pretty sure that both need to be active for either one to work.

I haven't seen any data from Codex entries to detail if the dormant relay that was activated was a primary or secondary relay but the idea that the Citadel races had never encountered the Rachni before the war seems to suggest a significant distance between Citadel Space and Rachni Space, so I always make the assumption that the relay was a primary.

The conclusion I draw from that assumption is that a Primary Relay can provide a one way coorridor of mass free space to a star system, but you can't get back unless the partner relay is active.

To paraphrase Mordin, it is an assumption which may not be true but the circumstances support the hypothesis.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 03 août 2010 - 02:50 .

[shinyblacklatexkitty]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Teclo wrote...

shinyblacklatexkitty wrote...

Humanity needs a genophage/retrovirus/nanobots/SOMETHING to save it from itself... It's the only way our own climate change could be stopped really, everything else fails because of the sheer inertia needed and powerful commercial interests.

optimumpopulation.org (facebook) is a good site, supported by Sir David Attenborough as well as many other educated, rational thinkers, but doesn't do much more than try raise awareness really... I think we are probably doomed as a race because we aren't willing to make these kind of hard decisions even when no one actually has to die...

www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=2 (alternate version) (individual country selector)

Really I think the whole krogan thing is a good metaphor for humanity, with the explosive population growth, violence, nuclear war etc (rather than any other kind of alien weapon it makes it rather noticable and something people can better relate to). We're going to have our own wars over water and food in the future I'm sure, maybe not in our lifetimes but you don't have to look too far to see the trend.

You should, if you haven't already, read Brave New World Revisited by Aldous Huxley. He had a lot to say about over population leading to the world eating its own legs off. Nowadays we talk about carbon footprints and stuff like that, but people tend to forget that it's only an issue because of the crippling overpopulation of the world.

Fortunately, the U.N. predicts world population will start dropping in the middle of this century. Of course, that will create an economic collapse and chaos since our financial system is fueled by expanding debt. But hey, no one ever said this would be easy!

The UN "predicts" some real bull**** sometimes. I prefer to read the work of independent scientists, not politically motivated ones often with individual nations' interests involved in promoting misleading material.

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 03 août 2010 - 03:06 .

[Elvis_Mazur]

No, not pissed, but I still don't know if I must cure or not cure the genophage...

[Siansonea]

Not angry about the genophage. It is a fictional universe, after all. And I don't care for krogan for the most part. Talk about stereotypical chest-pounding macho BS. They were created to appeal to a particular subset of the young male demographic, and I find them tiresome and one-dimensional (though I do like Grunt to an extent). Any story device that keeps their numbers low in the game is fine by me.

[SirVincealot]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Fortunately, the U.N. predicts world population will start dropping in the middle of this century.

Source please?

[SirVincealot]

Teclo wrote... the crippling overpopulation of the world.

Indiana is one of the United States in the Northwest of the country. The entire population of this area roughly the size of England is 6M people. Greater London packs 8M.

Overpopulation?

Even with unlivable areas (in both countries), population density is the problem on Earth, coupled with overemphasis on unsustainable high-cost/low yield agriculture ferried over unpractial distances using some of the least efficient transportation systems ever devised and then sold (often in single servings) at outlets with losses that would make any concerned human's hair turn white.

What you have is a global structure where roughly 80% of the world works long hours at low wages in order to keep the wealthy 20% (that's you, me and everyone on these boards) in designer footwear, videogames and high calory/low nutrition diets.

It's like something dreamed up by a mad Bond villain, or Doctor Evil from the Austin Powers movies...

Modifié par SirVincealot, 03 août 2010 - 05:47 .

[OasisForever1991]

I can see your guys points and Mordin's but I can't seen to get over the fact that, it's nature. Just becasue small smart aliens are seeing war like big aliens becoming into something greater (even tho yes, they were taking too many worlds and could end up badly with krogan rebelions)...They only point I can agree with from Mordin is that the Krogan were not ready to join the galaxy with nukes and things. Playing god is the word for it, but more like stupid scientists put their noses in everything and can't the galaxy leave well enough alone?

If anything with someone like Shepard now a days in the glalactic community, who has a "grip" on things. And can make the right desicion. I think Shepard is right, there are always other choices besides the Geno. And it could have been worked out, with time....and blood, but there's always blood.

Thoughts?

[Whatever42]

Here is another point. Listen to the intentions of those krogan who wish to end the genophage versus those who seek to adapt to it. Which is better for the krogan? For the galaxy?



And ONE source of declining population: http://www.csmonitor...07s02-wogi.html

There are many.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

This reminds me of the debate over whether or not the Americans should have used nuclear weapons in the war.

[shinyblacklatexkitty]

"Whatever666343431431654324", that article is from "The Christian Science Monitor", 8 years ago.

I think the sites you read kind of tells us what your bias here is though, thanks for that.



Here's something more science-based and less on dogma, as well as more recent, from optimumpopulation.org, which again, is run by scientists and non-governmental or commercial organisations: 
optimumpopulation.org/releases/opt.release16Mar09.htm

If present trends continue, by 2050, when the UN projects world
population will be 9.1 billion, there will be an estimated five billion
more people than the Earth can support.

Take a look at this too:
Too Many People on Earth

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 03 août 2010 - 08:18 .

[PsyrenY]

shinyblacklatexkitty wrote...

"Whatever666343431431654324", that article is from "The Christian Science Monitor", 8 years ago.

I think the sites you read kind of tells us what your bias here is though, thanks for that.

Have to agree here...

[SirVincealot]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And ONE source of declining population: http://www.csmonitor...07s02-wogi.html
There are many.

Thanks for that.

I find the article (and the experts quoted) full of delusional hope and questionable inferences - but that is nothing to do with you.

Some better science here. Check it out: http://www.un.org/Ne.../pop918.doc.htm

P.S. use PM for reply so we stop thread hijack

Modifié par SirVincealot, 03 août 2010 - 08:16 .

[brfritos]

I think people are missing the point on Genophage.

The Krogan are violent upstartes? Yes.
The Krogan are ruthless? Yes.
The Krogan were responsible for the chaos on the galaxy (with the Rebellions)? Not entirely.

The Krogan were never been able to flee from their homeworld if it wasn't for the Salarians!
So the Salarians release the Krogan on the Rachni, then release the Genophage to correct their mistake and the Krogan are guilty?!

BTW, Cerberus is evil for trying to make "shock troops" of thorian creepers, rachni and husks, but the Salarians are good because they did the same thing with the Krogans?
So now we have two measures for the same thing?

Let's try comparing with something from our time.

The US uplifted the Mujahideen to fight against USSR in the 80's, then this bite them in the ass decades later and the Mujahideen are guilty?
They were cave man at the time, living in the Afghanistan mountains, for Christ sake.

Also, the genophage was better for the Krogan?
So the holocaust was good for the jews?

Sorry if I missed something.