201 réponses à ce sujet

[shinyblacklatexkitty]

SirVincealot, I don't think it's really offtopic, I think the Krogan is meant as a metaphor for humanity. With bumpy foreheads and humps. They ARE humanity really, right down to the almost destroying ourselves with nuclear weapons.

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 03 août 2010 - 08:20 .

[PsyrenY]

brfritos wrote...

BTW, Cerberus is evil for trying to make "shock troops" of thorian creepers, rachni and husks, but the Salarians are good because they did the same thing with the Krogans?
So now we have two measures for the same thing?

Sorry if I missed something.

But they aren't the same thing. Creepers, husks, and rachni (at least, the ones Cerberus was using) are not sapient. Krogan are.

The Krogan could have stopped being jerks and forcing themselves into neighboring colonies. They could have said "Gosh, I bet these aliens really don't like it when we conquer their colonies and kill/enslave their inhabitants." But they didn't. They kept at their barbarism basically because they considered the Salarians, Asari and Turians to be weak. So the Salarians got up and said "we may be weak, but science  > you."

Oh, and more to the point - they got all the conquered Rachni planets for themselves, along with additional colonies besides, as thanks for their assistance. Why wasn't that enough for them? Because they're a race full of arses being lead by arses, that's why.

And I know I will catch flak for this part, but Wrex? What would he have been like without a genophage to give him perspective? I'm pretty sure he'd be just as much of a warmongering brute as the rest of them.

[Peridian]

It's the lesser of two evils.

If this is crossing some line (personal or site rules), just say it and I'll drop it but this can be compared to real life Ch*n*.
I think we all know to what I'm referring but the thing is; the world as it is, is vastly overpopulated. All the worlds resources are being used up (relatively) fast, and the use we get out of the Earth's soil is extensive. I could be misinformed but from what I know we're actually exhausting our land, taking it past it's natural recovery limit. In short that means that we won't be able to get the same amount of product in the future, as we get from the earth right now (theoretically).

While their one child rule is truly terrible for everyone involved, it is greatly benificial for the world in a economical sense, as an already vastly populated country tries to counter it's use of resources.

So I compare that to the genophage. It's terrible, but it had to be done. For the good of all (remember: it was the genophage or suffer extinction for the Krogan).

Modifié par Peridian, 03 août 2010 - 08:48 .

[PsyrenY]

Peridian wrote...

So I compare that to the genophage. It's terrible, but it had to be done. For the good of all (remember: it was the genophage or suffer extinction for the Krogan).

If I can play devil's advocate for a second: my only problem with this POV is that they may end up extinct anyway., it'll just take longer.

Mordin says they are stabilized; Wrex says they are dying.

Both of them cannot be right; therefore the question comes down to which of them is more of an authority on krogan. And if Wrex is right, what can be done about it?

[Zaisha_temp]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Peridian wrote...

So I compare that to the genophage. It's terrible, but it had to be done. For the good of all (remember: it was the genophage or suffer extinction for the Krogan).

If I can play devil's advocate for a second: my only problem with this POV is that they may end up extinct anyway., it'll just take longer.

Mordin says they are stabilized; Wrex says they are dying.

Both of them cannot be right; therefore the question comes down to which of them is more of an authority on krogan. And if Wrex is right, what can be done about it?

The Krogan should be stable. It was accurately calculated by the Salarians that the Genophage would reduce the Krogan level of population growth to that of pre-uplift society by having the same ratio of "eggs layed" to "surviving adult". Where it all went wrong was that the Salarians forgot to account for the psychological effects this has.

Mordin is right because the actual disease reaches the intended result. 

Wrex is right because Krogan reaction to the situation prevents them hitting their "reproduction quota", because all the Krogan go off and kill/party/fight/not reproduce because they believe nothing matters anymore anyway.

The Salarians went wrong in expecting the Krogan to handle their new problem in a calm logical (read: Salarian)manner, but instead they have a hot-headed uncontrolled emotional (read: Krogan)  reaction. Interestingly, Wrex's "fix" of approaching reproduction in a controlled and focussed manner is very Salarian indeed and mirrors their reproductive habits to some extent. (I would not say this to Wrex's, or any Krogan's, face however)  

[PsyrenY]

Zaisha_temp wrote...

The Krogan should be stable. It was accurately calculated by the Salarians that the Genophage would reduce the Krogan level of population growth to that of pre-uplift society by having the same ratio of "eggs layed" to "surviving adult". Where it all went wrong was that the Salarians forgot to account for the psychological effects this has.

Mordin is right because the actual disease reaches the intended result. 

Wrex is right because Krogan reaction to the situation prevents them hitting their "reproduction quota", because all the Krogan go off and kill/party/fight/not reproduce because they believe nothing matters anymore anyway.

The Salarians went wrong in expecting the Krogan to handle their new problem in a calm logical (read: Salarian)manner, but instead they have a hot-headed uncontrolled emotional (read: Krogan)  reaction. Interestingly, Wrex's "fix" of approaching reproduction in a controlled and focussed manner is very Salarian indeed and mirrors their reproductive habits to some extent. (I would not say this to Wrex's, or any Krogan's, face however)  

But Mordin himself says in one conversation - "social, psychological factors accounted for. Not an undergraduate" to Shepard, rather dismissively in fact. Yet it seems that his knowledge of Krogan psychology, or perhaps even that of the STG in general, is lacking. The Salarians were therefore wrong.

In short, what they should have done was modify the genophage as planned, but factor in Krogan nature - i.e. lower their fertility, but add in a small boost to account for their propensity to leave Tuchanka and/or kill each other at the drop of a hat. They didn't, thus the species is declining.

Now, one can argue that the downward slope of the Krogan race has given Wrex a useful platform to campaign from in terms of dragging the Krogans into the 23rd century. The problem, though, is:

1) Whether Wrex survives is not necessarily canon (and his replacement Wreav seems no different from any other warlord - i.e. short-sighted and destructive;
2) Even if Wrex does make it through Virmire, his entire plan for the Krogan people will die if he does;
3) Grunt, his most likely successor in the event of such a death (due to slaying the Thresher Maw, being perfect etc.), does not seem to particularly care about his people's fate.

[Zaisha_temp]

Optimystic_X wrote...

But Mordin himself says in one conversation - "social, psychological factors accounted for. Not an undergraduate" to Shepard, rather dismissively in fact. Yet it seems that his knowledge of Krogan psychology, or perhaps even that of the STG in general, is lacking. The Salarians were therefore wrong.

That particular conversation refers to the research showing that that Krogan natural adaptation was overcoming the Genophage. Mordin was referring to Sheppard's suggestion that those factors might be causing the Krogan population upswing, rather than out-evolving the Genophage.

It's Mordin's reason for the Genophage needing to be updated, not the original Genophage creation teams's procedure. (I imagine the original team was in rather more of a hurry, with no time/thought for lengthy socio-dynamic studies) 

And yes, the Salarians miscalculated: they expected the Krogan to react to crises like Salarians do.

Additionally, Wrex's (and to some extent Okeer's) plan are indeed the only lifelines for the Krogan in their current situation. (Genophage cure equalling extinction at the talons/hands of the Turians and Humans, as Mordin said)

I expect failing to keep at least either one of Wrex and Grunt alive through to the end of ME3 will result in a bad epilogue for the Krogan.

[Stanley Woo]

Peridian wrote...

If this is crossing some line (personal or site rules), just say it and I'll drop it but this can be compared to real life Ch*n*

You can say "China," you know. the word isn't one of the ones we filter out. Even if it was, why do you think we would let you use the word even with self-censoring? Kind of silly, in my opinion. So if you want to say China, say China. i will, however, warn against bringing too much real-world politics into a discussion about a fictional condition suffered by a fictional alien race in a fictional setting. Let's try and keep it ME-related, please.

[Peridian]

Stanley Woo wrote...
You can say "China," you know. the word isn't one of the ones we filter out. Even if it was, why do you think we would let you use the word even with self-censoring? Kind of silly, in my opinion. So if you want to say China, say China. i will, however, warn against bringing too much real-world politics into a discussion about a fictional condition suffered by a fictional alien race in a fictional setting. Let's try and keep it ME-related, please.

Better safe then sorry. And I'll try to keep it to a minimum.

[shinyblacklatexkitty]

Yeah you are prob right actually, it could just get too angry and in some cases personal with people that have multiple children etc (though people discussing here I'd say are probably less likely to be part of a high birth rate population group since it tends to be less educated or heavily religious people though not saying you can't be both), but I think it is cool how the writers' fictional world helps getting people to think and seriously talk about things they might not otherwise if it was brought up any other way. There seems to be a lot of that in Mass Effect, like the way quarians are treated like criminals automatically etc, though you can't really argue with profiling vorcha who really *are* very likely to be in crime.

But yeah I hope this kind of thing continues in Mass Effect 3 because it seems a bit like hardly anyone ever talks seriously about the state of the world but it's easier for people to do it when the issues are ones taking place in a fictional one. In a way it kind of reminds me how children's cartoons "soften" historical characters like robin hood etc by making them with a cast of animals - here we have aliens instead. It really does work. I'll shut up now, just keep up the good work Bioware writers.

google.com/products?q=%22soylent+green+dvd%22&scoring=p

youtube.com/watch?v=ICecxOfmFtU&hd=1

youtube.com/watch?v=C97SIdwhATQ&fmt=18 lol

I think I'm going to find a mordin fan group and join it ha.

Modifié par shinyblacklatexkitty, 03 août 2010 - 11:32 .

[Chuvvy]

Peridian wrote...

It's the lesser of two evils.

If this is crossing some line (personal or site rules), just say it and I'll drop it but this can be compared to real life Ch*n*.
I think we all know to what I'm referring but the thing is; the world as it is, is vastly overpopulated. All the worlds resources are being used up (relatively) fast, and the use we get out of the Earth's soil is extensive. I could be misinformed but from what I know we're actually exhausting our land, taking it past it's natural recovery limit. In short that means that we won't be able to get the same amount of product in the future, as we get from the earth right now (theoretically).

While their one child rule is truly terrible for everyone involved, it is greatly benificial for the world in a economical sense, as an already vastly populated country tries to counter it's use of resources.

So I compare that to the genophage. It's terrible, but it had to be done. For the good of all (remember: it was the genophage or suffer extinction for the Krogan).

It's not vastly overpopulated. It will be soon though. Agriculture can only sustain 11 or 12 billion people I believe. Our population is growing at around 74 million a year most of those in develpoing countrys. In 2050 we'll hit 11 billion, in theory. Of course this is assuming we don't blow ourselves up, I maintain that humanity is just smart enough to destroy itself.

Also Genophage was the right call.

[Epic777]

The genophage always rubbed me the wrong way, I do not like the idea of a forced change, its like a clockwork orange.

[brfritos]

Optimystic_X wrote...

brfritos wrote...

BTW, Cerberus is evil for trying to make "shock troops" of thorian creepers, rachni and husks, but the Salarians are good because they did the same thing with the Krogans?
So now we have two measures for the same thing?

Sorry if I missed something.

But they aren't the same thing. Creepers, husks, and rachni (at least, the ones Cerberus was using) are not sapient. Krogan are.

The Krogan could have stopped being jerks and forcing themselves into neighboring colonies. They could have said "Gosh, I bet these aliens really don't like it when we conquer their colonies and kill/enslave their inhabitants." But they didn't. They kept at their barbarism basically because they considered the Salarians, Asari and Turians to be weak. So the Salarians got up and said "we may be weak, but science  > you."

Oh, and more to the point - they got all the conquered Rachni planets for themselves, along with additional colonies besides, as thanks for their assistance. Why wasn't that enough for them? Because they're a race full of arses being lead by arses, that's why.

And I know I will catch flak for this part, but Wrex? What would he have been like without a genophage to give him perspective? I'm pretty sure he'd be just as much of a warmongering brute as the rest of them.

But Rachni ARE sapient creatures!
In ME1 Codex is specified that the other galactic races don't known how to communicate with them, the race responds only to the queens commands and their world were too poisoned, except for the Krogans.

Then you uplift and USE a race as cannon fodder, who believe that a worthy enemy is a dead one, to negotiate peace?
The outcome for this isn't unexpected.

Mordin said that the Krogan could learn to workout aggression with time and I think he's right.

Remember that us humans also believed until WWI that a enemy has to be destroyed to the end. 
This could lead to a worst situation, if you left a nation destroyed and by their own fate.
That's why after the end of WWII Europe and other countries were helped to rebuild, even Germany (among other reasons).

Or imagine if Europe in the middle ages have access to modern weaponry?
Bye, bye Earth.

[brfritos]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Peridian wrote...

If this is crossing some line (personal or site rules), just say it and I'll drop it but this can be compared to real life Ch*n*

You can say "China," you know. the word isn't one of the ones we filter out. Even if it was, why do you think we would let you use the word even with self-censoring? Kind of silly, in my opinion. So if you want to say China, say China. i will, however, warn against bringing too much real-world politics into a discussion about a fictional condition suffered by a fictional alien race in a fictional setting. Let's try and keep it ME-related, please.

Well, there are a lot of situations on the game that remembers real-world politics.
Geth x Quarians, for exemple. 

I think it's unusual we can't comment on that.

[Epic777]

brfritos wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Peridian wrote...

If this is crossing some line (personal or site rules), just say it and I'll drop it but this can be compared to real life Ch*n*

You can say "China," you know. the word isn't one of the ones we filter out. Even if it was, why do you think we would let you use the word even with self-censoring? Kind of silly, in my opinion. So if you want to say China, say China. i will, however, warn against bringing too much real-world politics into a discussion about a fictional condition suffered by a fictional alien race in a fictional setting. Let's try and keep it ME-related, please.

Well, there are a lot of situations on the game that remembers real-world politics.
Geth x Quarians, for exemple. 

I think it's unusual we can't comment on that.

Here is an interesting thought, would a stable, politically modern krogan society be in the council races best interest? A well disciplined and tactical krogan army (okeers krogan lance statements come to mind) combined with a grudge against the council races, this could prove problematic,,,, 

[Whatever42]

Epic777 wrote...
Here is an interesting thought, would a stable, politically modern krogan society be in the council races best interest? A well disciplined and tactical krogan army (okeers krogan lance statements come to mind) combined with a grudge against the council races, this could prove problematic,,,, 

The Krogan are violent and warlike because it was a necessity. With incredibly long life spans and ridiculously high birthrates, it was the only way to control their population. Their whole culture became centered around it.

In a future where children are precious, instead of just more meat for the grinder, they'll be like the rest of us - much more cautious and pragmatic.

I think Okeer is just nuts. His plan makes zero sense.

[PsyrenY]

brfritos wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

But they aren't the same thing. Creepers, husks, and rachni (at least, the ones Cerberus was using) are not sapient. Krogan are.

But Rachni ARE sapient creatures!
In ME1 Codex is specified that the other galactic races don't known how to communicate with them, the race responds only to the queens commands and their world were too poisoned, except for the Krogans.

How did you manage to quote me without reading what I wrote?

I said the Rachni that Cerberus was using aren't sapient. Even the Queen says so on Noveria - the other Rachni were corrupted by a "sour, yellow note," and they had to be destroyed. They're every bit as mindless and not responsible for their actions as husks.

Krogan ARE responsible for their actions. They kept expanding aggressively, and provoked a very military response that they could have prevented had they not been such jerks. As Jack would say: "tough ****."

My Shepard (Paragon) totally disagrees with the genophage, but even he can't think of any other solution that would have stopped the Rebellions without annihilating the Krogan entirely. And to be honest, neither can I.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 04 août 2010 - 02:54 .

[Epic777]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...
Here is an interesting thought, would a stable, politically modern krogan society be in the council races best interest? A well disciplined and tactical krogan army (okeers krogan lance statements come to mind) combined with a grudge against the council races, this could prove problematic,,,, 

The Krogan are violent and warlike because it was a necessity. With incredibly long life spans and ridiculously high birthrates, it was the only way to control their population. Their whole culture became centered around it.

In a future where children are precious, instead of just more meat for the grinder, they'll be like the rest of us - much more cautious and pragmatic.

I think Okeer is just nuts. His plan makes zero sense.

The krogan like the rest of us? Like the salarians who do not declare war, and will use biological weapons?Like the turians who deployed a biological weapons despite  said weapons originally created to be used as a deterrent? Maybe like the humans who colonized regions the batarians had been settling? 

[Whatever42]

Epic777 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...
Here is an interesting thought, would a stable, politically modern krogan society be in the council races best interest? A well disciplined and tactical krogan army (okeers krogan lance statements come to mind) combined with a grudge against the council races, this could prove problematic,,,, 

The Krogan are violent and warlike because it was a necessity. With incredibly long life spans and ridiculously high birthrates, it was the only way to control their population. Their whole culture became centered around it.

In a future where children are precious, instead of just more meat for the grinder, they'll be like the rest of us - much more cautious and pragmatic.

I think Okeer is just nuts. His plan makes zero sense.

The krogan like the rest of us? Like the salarians who do not declare war, and will use biological weapons?Like the turians who deployed a biological weapons despite  said weapons originally created to be used as a deterrent? Maybe like the humans who colonized regions the batarians had been settling? 

The Krogan take land on toxic, heavy gravity worlds that has a 99.9999% chance to kill them to prove their kroganhood. Compared to the krogan, we are the epitome of cautious. Besides, you didn't describe recklessness. Launching a sneak attack or driving a weaker enemy out of star systems isn't reckless; it just isn't very nice.

[Mecha Tengu]

not enough information is given to us about the war



not enough information to decide whether it was necessary, or the Turians just wanted a cheap end to an otherwise lengthly conventional war

[PsyrenY]

Epic777 wrote...

Maybe like the humans who
colonized regions the batarians had been settling? 

Nitpick: The Batarians did not have active settlements on the worlds that the humans colonized in the Verge. They merely wanted the Council to reserve those worlds for their later use indefinitely, by declaring the whole Verge "a zone of Batarian interest." The council rightly replied, if you want to claim a planet, put a settlement on it and stop whining. This caused the Batarians to get butthurt and leave the Citadel.

[Epic777]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Epic777 wrote...
Here is an interesting thought, would a stable, politically modern krogan society be in the council races best interest? A well disciplined and tactical krogan army (okeers krogan lance statements come to mind) combined with a grudge against the council races, this could prove problematic,,,, 

The Krogan are violent and warlike because it was a necessity. With incredibly long life spans and ridiculously high birthrates, it was the only way to control their population. Their whole culture became centered around it.

In a future where children are precious, instead of just more meat for the grinder, they'll be like the rest of us - much more cautious and pragmatic.

I think Okeer is just nuts. His plan makes zero sense.

The krogan like the rest of us? Like the salarians who do not declare war, and will use biological weapons?Like the turians who deployed a biological weapons despite  said weapons originally created to be used as a deterrent? Maybe like the humans who colonized regions the batarians had been settling? 

The Krogan take land on toxic, heavy gravity worlds that has a 99.9999% chance to kill them to prove their kroganhood. Compared to the krogan, we are the epitome of cautious. Besides, you didn't describe recklessness. Launching a sneak attack or driving a weaker enemy out of star systems isn't reckless; it just isn't very nice.

Maybe I should make myself a little clearer, I agree they would be more cautious but I do not believe the krogans become non militaristic as I have pointed most of the races are not exactly pacifist.....

Thats my whole deal, the krogan previously relied hugely on horde tactics (large, inflexible formation), hell even the gear wasn't so good. In the scenario I mentioned this what mean, imagine a krogan force launching a sneak attack or driving a weaker enemy out of star systems. Do I think is said scenario a modern, reformed poltically united krogan population would start war left right and center but with a modern army with modern tactics could prove a thorn for the citadel council like US/USSR cold war.

[Kid_SixXx]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
In a future where children are precious, instead of just more meat for the grinder, they'll be like the rest of us - much more cautious and pragmatic.

Their children should be precious now, but Krogan still prefer to fight.  Warfare has been in their culture for millenia and that mentality has caused them to view the genophage as an enemy to be defeated and not a fact of life to be accepted.

The Krogan have already gone the route of using Vorcha to supplement their numbers so that they can continue their culture of warfare.  Even though they are dying out, the Krogan are far from settling down and trading swords for plowshares.

Okeer's plan isn't nuts if you look at it from a Krogan standpoint.  I think he realizes that the Krogan will never accept "cautious and pragmatic" as a cultural mindset and he feels that the best way to preserve Krogan culture is to build a better Krogan and wean the race off of the horde mentality.

In essence, Okeer's dream is that every single Krogan will eventually be like Grunt:  a horde of one.  As I said before, the Krogan mindset causes them to view the genophage as an enemy to be beaten, therefore the Krogan "fight back" against the genophage by continuing to breed.  They do this under the assumption that the genophage is a sterility plague and that they can "defeat" the genophage by increasing their population and trying to find a cure.

Okeer realizes that the genophage cannot be cured and does not affect fertility; rather it artificially adjusts the birthrate to compensate for the Krogan lifespan and durability. 

If it is the fate from here on out for the Krogan to have a low birthrate, then his solution is to make every Krogan life count for something.  By the same token, Okeer realizes that Krogan will always have a cultural disposition leaning towards warfare, so that "something" that every life will count for is battle. 

A Krogan with no will to fight is not a true Krogan so becoming "cautious and pragmatic" is tantamount to conceeding defeat to the Salarians and the Turians. 

They do not want to be like "the rest of us":  they want to be Krogan and struggle is the cornerstone of the Krogan psyche.

With Grunt and his inevitable progeny added to the breeding pool, Krogan will eventually become even tougher to kill than ever before and a shining day will arrive when the Krogan won't need to shy away from armed conflict for fear of losing numbers nor depend on the Vorcha to aid them in combat.

Everyone seems to conclude that Okeer's only desire is to see to it that the Krogan race survives when in actuality he wants them to be feared again.  A desire most likely shared by every other Krogan out there.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 04 août 2010 - 03:08 .

[PsyrenY]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
In a future where children are precious, instead of just more meat for the grinder, they'll be like the rest of us - much more cautious and pragmatic.

Their children should be precious now, but Krogan still prefer to fight.  Warfare has been in their culture for millenia and that mentality has caused them to view the genophage as an enemy to be defeated and not a fact of life to be accepted.

The Krogan have already gone the route of using Vorcha to supplement their numbers so that they can continue their culture of warfare.  Even though they are dying out, the Krogan are far from settling down and trading swords for plowshares.

Okeer's plan isn't nuts if you look at it from a Krogan standpoint.  I think he realizes that the Krogan will never accept "cautious and pragmatic" as a cultural mindset and he feels that the best way to preserve Krogan culture is to build a better Krogan and wean the race off of the horde mentality.

Everyone seems to conclude that Okeer's only desire is to see to it that the Krogan race survives when in actuality he wants them to be feared again.  A desire most likely shared by every other Krogan out there.

This is perhaps the best explanation of Okeer's mentality I've read to date.

[Kid_SixXx]

Also, the big take-away from Virmire is that anyone that can show that they are able to reverse the effects of the genophage can potentially command the immediate and unconditional loyalty of the entire Krogan race. 

Grunt doesn't only represent Krogan evolution, he also represents a return to Krogan self-determination.  

A Krogan race that is able to cope with the genophage removes the threat of the Krogan becoming pawns to whomever is best able to use the genophage as leverage against them.

As I said before, Okeer's plan is not nuts. It is actually well thought out if harsh and draconian.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 04 août 2010 - 03:42 .