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[GodWood]

If the genophage wasn't used humanity would've been wiped out in the middle ages.

[Kid_SixXx]

GodWood wrote...

If the genophage wasn't used humanity would've been wiped out in the middle ages.

I proposed that argument a couple pages back in the thread.

[Whatever42]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
In a future where children are precious, instead of just more meat for the grinder, they'll be like the rest of us - much more cautious and pragmatic.

Their children should be precious now, but Krogan still prefer to fight.  Warfare has been in their culture for millenia and that mentality has caused them to view the genophage as an enemy to be defeated and not a fact of life to be accepted.

The Krogan have already gone the route of using Vorcha to supplement their numbers so that they can continue their culture of warfare.  Even though they are dying out, the Krogan are far from settling down and trading swords for plowshares.

Okeer's plan isn't nuts if you look at it from a Krogan standpoint.  I think he realizes that the Krogan will never accept "cautious and pragmatic" as a cultural mindset and he feels that the best way to preserve Krogan culture is to build a better Krogan and wean the race off of the horde mentality.

In essence, Okeer's dream is that every single Krogan will eventually be like Grunt:  a horde of one.  As I said before, the Krogan mindset causes them to view the genophage as an enemy to be beaten, therefore the Krogan "fight back" against the genophage by continuing to breed.  They do this under the assumption that the genophage is a sterility plague and that they can "defeat" the genophage by increasing their population and trying to find a cure.

Okeer realizes that the genophage cannot be cured and does not affect fertility; rather it artificially adjusts the birthrate to compensate for the Krogan lifespan and durability. 

If it is the fate from here on out for the Krogan to have a low birthrate, then his solution is to make every Krogan life count for something.  By the same token, Okeer realizes that Krogan will always have a cultural disposition leaning towards warfare, so that "something" that every life will count for is battle. 

A Krogan with no will to fight is not a true Krogan so becoming "cautious and pragmatic" is tantamount to conceeding defeat to the Salarians and the Turians. 

They do not want to be like "the rest of us":  they want to be Krogan and struggle is the cornerstone of the Krogan psyche.

With Grunt and his inevitable progeny added to the breeding pool, Krogan will eventually become even tougher to kill than ever before and a shining day will arrive when the Krogan won't need to shy away from armed conflict for fear of losing numbers nor depend on the Vorcha to aid them in combat.

Everyone seems to conclude that Okeer's only desire is to see to it that the Krogan race survives when in actuality he wants them to be feared again.  A desire most likely shared by every other Krogan out there.

I'd agree that you nailed Okeer's motivations. But one perfect Krogan isn't going to breed a race of superior Krogan. Nor is he necessarily going to be a krogan napolean. I know he wants stronger Krogan instead of more Krogan but unless the Krogan undertake widespread genetic engineering, which they won't, it seems pointless to me.

Also, listening to Wrex and some of the Krogan on Tchunka leads me to believe that Okeer is fighting a reargard action. That Krogan who really wanted to meet his child was very unkroganlike, which is why I think that the Krogan are socially evolving. They will always be warlike - its probably genetic, not just cultural - but the Krogan culture of embracing death will wither away. Its hard to value your children and feed them into a meat grinder of war. And valuing life, any life, is the first step to developing empathy.

[Kid_SixXx]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I'd agree that you nailed Okeer's motivations. But one perfect Krogan isn't going to breed a race of superior Krogan. Nor is he necessarily going to be a krogan napolean. I know he wants stronger Krogan instead of more Krogan but unless the Krogan undertake widespread genetic engineering, which they won't, it seems pointless to me.

You're assuming that Okeer's goal is an immediate fix to the issue of Krogan infertility and mortality but it really isn't.  One Krogan super soldier won't make a difference right now.

Okeer's vision looks several millenia down the road after Grunt's DNA heritage proceeds through the bloodlines of future generations of Krogan.

I also tend to think that Okeer really doesn't care whether or not the Krogan survive.  He's already done more than any other Krogan has to ensure the biological improvement of the Krogan race. 

If the Krogan race dies out even after Grunt's introduction into the gene pool, then it's their own damn fault.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And valuing life, any life, is the first step to developing empathy.

Is that a traditional Krogan value?  Not really.

And the way to enforce implimentation of this school of thought and break the Krogan of their culture of violence is the genophage; the Salarian version of "asking" a Krogan to walk a mile in his flippers.

No wonder Okeer is so resentful.  Perhaps it was the development of Krogan "empathy" that inspired Okeer to take the steps he did and begin his research?

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 04 août 2010 - 06:00 .

[Kid_SixXx]

I also have to re-emphasize the importance of the lesson's learned at Virmire. 

The genophage is an enemy that the Krogan cannot defeat on their own.

The only way to "beat" the genophage in the immediacy is by the complete overhaul of the Krogan gene pool on a racial scale, but the Krogan don't have the finances nor the collective will to implement that strategy.

The Krogan angst over the genophage coupled with their horde mentality makes them vulnurable to manipulation by anyone that promises a immmediate cure... even though the genophage cannot be cured...

The legacy of the genophage is something that the Krogan should not just accept on the terms dictated to them by the Salarians, or so Okeer seems to believe.

That is where Grunt comes in.  He represents the Krogan accepting the genophage as part of their existance and accepting it on Krogan terms.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 04 août 2010 - 05:06 .

[biomag]

Mordin explained the reasons. Who doesn't understand his arguments won't listen to anyone. Its a perfectly reasonable choice to deal with the situation at hand. It has the highest probability to prevent a war leads without killing krogans. It was a plan to repair the damage of giving the krogans better tech before their race was ready for that. Their own bloodlust makes it a problem. Their race wouldn't be dying if they would seek battle. And if you argue now its their nature and they should be able to do it without leading into a slow genocide, then please explain what makes the life of those they kill in those wars worth less than those of the krogans? If they stop waging mindless wars and start listen to Wrex they will rebuild and have a strong and safe future.

[Whatever42]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I'd agree that you nailed Okeer's motivations. But one perfect Krogan isn't going to breed a race of superior Krogan. Nor is he necessarily going to be a krogan napolean. I know he wants stronger Krogan instead of more Krogan but unless the Krogan undertake widespread genetic engineering, which they won't, it seems pointless to me.

You're assuming that Okeer's goal is an immediate fix to the issue of Krogan infertility and mortality but it really isn't.  One Krogan super soldier won't make a difference right now.

Okeer's vision looks several millenia down the road after Grunt's DNA heritage proceeds through the bloodlines of future generations of Krogan.

I also tend to think that Okeer really doesn't care whether or not the Krogan survive.  He's already done more than any other Krogan has to ensure the biological improvement of the Krogan race. 

If the Krogan race dies out even after Grunt's introduction into the gene pool, then it's their own damn fault.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And valuing life, any life, is the first step to developing empathy.

Is that a traditional Krogan value?  Not really.

And the way to enforce implimentation of this school of thought and break the Krogan of their culture of violence is the genophage; the Salarian way to force the Krogan to walk a mile in their flippers.

No wonder Okeer is so resentful.  Perhaps it was the development of Krogan "empathy" that inspired Okeer to take the steps he did and begin his research?

Nope, I'm not assuming the goal is to fix infertility. Okeer is clear about that. But one krogan among billions is not going to siginficantly evolve the krogan into a more perfect specsis. That's why I said that there would have be far more widespread genetic tinkering.

And I agree totally with your last part. The genophage is forcing this change in Krogan culture. Wrex sees it as necessary to preserve and advance the krogan. I also agree that Okeer resented that philosphy, fearing that it would weaken the krogan because the weak wouldn't be culled. And genetic engineering could replace natural selection (as natural as unrelenting war can be). However, I still think it pointless because Grunt's genes will be so dispersed in a few generations that it will make no difference.

He's one little Krogan in a very big gene pool.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 04 août 2010 - 06:04 .

[Epic777]

biomag wrote...

Mordin explained the reasons. Who doesn't understand his arguments won't listen to anyone. Its a perfectly reasonable choice to deal with the situation at hand. It has the highest probability to prevent a war leads without killing krogans. It was a plan to repair the damage of giving the krogans better tech before their race was ready for that. Their own bloodlust makes it a problem. Their race wouldn't be dying if they would seek battle. And if you argue now its their nature and they should be able to do it without leading into a slow genocide, then please explain what makes the life of those they kill in those wars worth less than those of the krogans? If they stop waging mindless wars and start listen to Wrex they will rebuild and have a strong and safe future.

Hold up, so anyone that disagrees with the genophage is fat out wrong now? Anyone listen to Maelon? The genophage was extreme solution, the atomic bomb beign dropped in Japan was a one time deal, the genophage is one going for hundreds of years. The council is a nutshell used the krogan as meatshields, and from what I understand did not so much to change the social structure of the krogans. Even the US helped Japan after WII. Honestly its the modified genophage that rubs me the wrong way

[Kid_SixXx]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Nope, I'm not assuming the goal is to fix infertility. Okeer is clear about that. But one krogan among billions is not going to siginficantly evolve the krogan into a more perfect specsis. That's why I said that there would have be far more widespread genetic tinkering.

And I agree totally with your last part. The genophage is forcing this change in Krogan culture. Wrex sees it as necessary to preserve and advance the krogan. I also agree that Okeer resented that philosphy, fearing that it would weaken the krogan because the weak wouldn't be culled. And genetic engineering could replace natural selection (as natural as unrelenting war can be). However, I still think it pointless because Grunt's genes will be so dispersed in a few generations that it will make no difference.

He's one little Krogan in a very big gene pool.

True enough but Grunt isn't just a Krogan super soldier: he is also a product of Collector technology.

Therefore, I don't think that it is unreasonable to speculate that Okeer wouldn't have created Grunt in the first place if he didn't believe that Grunt's genetic traits would carry through to future generations of Krogan.

This somewhat explains why the other Krogan tank bred were deemed "imperfect."  They either lacked the mental stability or the physical criteria or perhaps Okeer knew through testing that their superior genetic attributes would dillute over generations of breeding.
Yeah, it is far fetched, but it's also science fiction.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 04 août 2010 - 06:21 .

[Whatever42]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Nope, I'm not assuming the goal is to fix infertility. Okeer is clear about that. But one krogan among billions is not going to siginficantly evolve the krogan into a more perfect specsis. That's why I said that there would have be far more widespread genetic tinkering.

And I agree totally with your last part. The genophage is forcing this change in Krogan culture. Wrex sees it as necessary to preserve and advance the krogan. I also agree that Okeer resented that philosphy, fearing that it would weaken the krogan because the weak wouldn't be culled. And genetic engineering could replace natural selection (as natural as unrelenting war can be). However, I still think it pointless because Grunt's genes will be so dispersed in a few generations that it will make no difference.

He's one little Krogan in a very big gene pool.

True enough but Grunt isn't just a Krogan super soldier: he is also a product of Collector technology.

Therefore, I don't think that it is unreasonable to speculate that Okeer wouldn't have created Grunt in the first place if he didn't believe that Grunt's genetic traits would carry through to future generations of Krogan.
Yeah, it is far fetched, but it's also science fiction.

That would be more mystical than Shepard's resurrection. Such genes would have to rewrite the mother's DNA in the egg. And with the genophage, even if Grunt and all his decendents procreated aggressively, then it would still take several thousand years for them to achieve a noticeable impact.

Humanity can achieve a far better result in a single generation by simply promoting DNA recombination and cybernetic implants.

I still don't think Okeer was very bright.

[PsyrenY]

Grunt says his purpose was to "fight and reveal the strongest." I think he was meant to rally the krogan to Okeer's way of thinking socially, not necessarily perpetuate it via his genes.

Keep in mind that they are as long-lived as Asari, and he's what, a week old? He has 1000 years to affect the social change the Krogan need. All the genes and such were to give him the capabilities/mentality of a warlord, so he'd survive long enough to fulfill that legacy.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 04 août 2010 - 06:35 .

[Whatever42]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Grunt says his purpose was to "fight and reveal the strongest." I think he was meant to rally the krogan to Okeer's way of thinking socially, not necessarily perpetuate it via his genes.

Keep in mind that they are as long-lived as Asari, and he's what, a week old? He has 1000 years to affect the social change the Krogan need. All the genes and such were to give him the capabilities/mentality of a warlord, so he'd survive long enough to fulfill that legacy.

That makes more practical sense. He was supposed to be the Khan Singh of Krogan. Okeer was simply procreating and wanted to leave behind a legacy of the perfect son. However, he did a poor job of imprinting on Grunt and I suspect his son will be more influenced by Shepard and Wrex than his education in the tank.

[OasisForever1991]

Thanks for all the posts guys. Good to have more (blank) on this.

[Destroy Raiden_]

The Korgans started the war because they lacked a sense of boundries. Just because they could take over a planet doesn't mean they had to.



They took it over killed alot of people and made others flee now those people are displaced and so on the genopahge was bad it killed and continues to kill lots of Krogan but sometimes extreme measures must be taken on a society that will not reason with others I'm sure they gave the Krogan amble room to back down or opt out before resorting to the genophage.



With the Krogans unwillingness to, in their minds surrender they dropped the genophage on them to save more lives.

[biomag]

Epic777 wrote...

biomag wrote...

Mordin explained the reasons. Who doesn't understand his arguments won't listen to anyone. Its a perfectly reasonable choice to deal with the situation at hand. It has the highest probability to prevent a war leads without killing krogans. It was a plan to repair the damage of giving the krogans better tech before their race was ready for that. Their own bloodlust makes it a problem. Their race wouldn't be dying if they would seek battle. And if you argue now its their nature and they should be able to do it without leading into a slow genocide, then please explain what makes the life of those they kill in those wars worth less than those of the krogans? If they stop waging mindless wars and start listen to Wrex they will rebuild and have a strong and safe future.

Hold up, so anyone that disagrees with the genophage is fat out wrong now? Anyone listen to Maelon? The genophage was extreme solution, the atomic bomb beign dropped in Japan was a one time deal, the genophage is one going for hundreds of years. The council is a nutshell used the krogan as meatshields, and from what I understand did not so much to change the social structure of the krogans. Even the US helped Japan after WII. Honestly its the modified genophage that rubs me the wrong way

Its not the genophage that was wrong, its just a shortcut to bring the krogans to their next evolutionary step. The wrong the krogan suffered was the rachni war. They got pushed by getting technology they never would be able to develop themselves back then and that lead to their race to outgrow their planet. Normally they would first have to deal (in a biological sense) with their reproduction rate by evolving to have less children before they were able to colonize space to overcome the room-issue. Their high aggression rate and spare rescources would lead to many dead krogans on their homeworld before they could develop ships and weapons to conquer new worlds. As their own world couldn't supply such numbers their reproduction rate would have become lower by natural evolution anyhow.

The genophage just reduced their reproduction numbers to solve the problem of needing more resources than they could get without getting into conflict with other races which just leads to high casualty numbers. The renewed genophage just prevented that the first atempt ended in vain.

It was never about punishing or exterminating krogans. They could have been eliminated like the rachni, but Mordin found a solution that was harder to develop and to keep working just to preserve them from the same fate. Ignoring his work to keep the krogan situation stable and peaceful preventing a war with other council races is simply doing Mordin and the genophage wrong.

[brfritos]

Optimystic_X wrote...

brfritos wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

But they aren't the same thing. Creepers, husks, and rachni (at least, the ones Cerberus was using) are not sapient. Krogan are.

But Rachni ARE sapient creatures!
In ME1 Codex is specified that the other galactic races don't known how to communicate with them, the race responds only to the queens commands and their world were too poisoned, except for the Krogans.

How did you manage to quote me without reading what I wrote?

I said the Rachni that Cerberus was using aren't sapient. Even the Queen says so on Noveria - the other Rachni were corrupted by a "sour, yellow note," and they had to be destroyed. They're every bit as mindless and not responsible for their actions as husks.

Krogan ARE responsible for their actions. They kept expanding aggressively, and provoked a very military response that they could have prevented had they not been such jerks. As Jack would say: "tough ****."

My Shepard (Paragon) totally disagrees with the genophage, but even he can't think of any other solution that would have stopped the Rebellions without annihilating the Krogan entirely. And to be honest, neither can I.

Yes, but this Rachni become mindless because of Cerberus, NOT because they born this way.
If you train a dog to become an assassin this means that the entire race of his is a race of killers?

Also, I'm not saying that the Krogan are not responsible for their actions.
Every sapient and consciousness being is and evolution means you have to adapt to whatever circusntances are posed in front of you, otherwise you go extinct.

What is strange is that there's a a high prejudice against the Krogans, but not the Salarians.
It was them who unlished the Rachni and uplifted the Krogan, turning them capable of traveling the galaxy..
I'm less prejudice against the Turians, like the first game try me to think, than the Salarians.

It's interesting that the Turian couselour always respond with force, attacking you; the Asari try to be diplomatic and find solutions to avoid confrotation; but the Salarian have always an attitude like "what the hell I'm doing here, wasting my time discussing with them?".

In the end I blame the Salarians, not the Krogan for what happened.

[Anezay]

The krogan were breeding like rabbits on crack. If they stop killing each other for five seconds, their population should still grow at a reasonable rate. At their previous rate, they would breed too fast to be healthy even for themselves.

[Canned Bullets]

While I don't want the Krogan to die out I don't want them to wage war on the Galaxy either. Its best to keep a genophage cure though just in case.

[PsyrenY]

brfritos wrote...

Yes, but this Rachni become mindless because of Cerberus, NOT because they born this way.
If you train a dog to become an assassin this means that the entire race of his is a race of killers?

Incorrect: the Rachni in the Wars (which happened long before Cerberus ever existed) were being controlled - it is heavily implied, by the Reapers. Take a paragon Shepard to Ilium for proof. Therefore, the Rachni that fought in the wars were already mindless, and the ones up on Peak 15 were just more of those - the ship Binary Helix found and experimented on dated from the war.

brfritos wrote...

Also, I'm not saying that the Krogan are not responsible for their actions.
Every sapient and consciousness being is and evolution means you have to adapt to whatever circusntances are posed in front of you, otherwise you go extinct.

What is strange is that there's a a high prejudice against the Krogans, but not the Salarians.
It was them who unlished the Rachni and uplifted the Krogan, turning them capable of traveling the galaxy..
I'm less prejudice against the Turians, like the first game try me to think, than the Salarians.

It's interesting that the Turian couselour always respond with force, attacking you; the Asari try to be diplomatic and find solutions to avoid confrotation; but the Salarian have always an attitude like "what the hell I'm doing here, wasting my time discussing with them?".

In the end I blame the Salarians, not the Krogan for what happened.

I agree that the Salarians are not without fault in what happened to the Krogan. They did give them technology before they were ready to use it responsibly. But nobody - not the Salarians, not the Rachni, not even the Reapers - held a gun to every Krogan's head and said "you'd better go out there and be a jerk to every other race! And breed like crazy while you're at it!"

[brfritos]

[quote]brfritos wrote...

Also, I'm not saying that the Krogan are not responsible for their actions.
Every sapient and consciousness being is and evolution means you have to adapt to whatever circusntances are posed in front of you, otherwise you go extinct.

What is strange is that there's a a high prejudice against the Krogans, but not the Salarians.
It was them who unlished the Rachni and uplifted the Krogan, turning them capable of traveling the galaxy..
I'm less prejudice against the Turians, like the first game try me to think, than the Salarians.

It's interesting that the Turian couselour always respond with force, attacking you; the Asari try to be diplomatic and find solutions to avoid confrotation; but the Salarian have always an attitude like "what the hell I'm doing here, wasting my time discussing with them?".

In the end I blame the Salarians, not the Krogan for what happened.[/quote]

I agree that the Salarians are not without fault in what happened to the Krogan. They did give them technology before they were ready to use it responsibly. But nobody - not the Salarians, not the Rachni, not even the Reapers - held a gun to every Krogan's head and said "you'd better go out there and be a jerk to every other race! And breed like crazy while you're at it!"

[/quote]

I'm not trying to look childish, but do you remember the scorpion and the frog tale?
That's exactly the case regarding the uplift of the Krogans.

It's like Mordin said, giving nuclear weapons to cave man.

Wrex said that the Krogan need to restart again and what they did to him?
Tried to kill him.
That's the Krogan nature.

We cannot expect every race or nation to act like ours, the Salarians should think about it before uplifting the Krogan.
I'm pissed by the genophage because of that, not beacuse I have pity of the Krogans, THEY ARE dangerous.

But the fault is not entirelly theirs, they don't deserve all that hatred exclusevelly, that's my point.

[Bluko]

Not really.

While to some degree I think the genophage is wrong, it's better then the alternative.

Essentially if the Genophage hadn't been used by the Turians either the Krogans would have all been killed by some other means or all the other council races would have been killed by the Krogan. True the genophage does cripple the Krogan population, but at least they're still alive.

The real problem is the Krogan aren't exactly responsible enough yet to integrate with the rest of galactic society. Until the Krogan are capable of showing some self control over their species I don't think it would be a good idea to cure them. While I have some hope Wrex might be capable of responsibly leading his people, I'm not entirely sure they're ready for a cure yet. However the Reaper threat may require that we let the Krogan breed freely again in return for their help in which case we just have to hope it won't be a repeat  of the Rachni Wars.

[fantasypisces]

I think having the genophage stop 999 out of a 1000 pregnancies was a little extreme.

I do believe something like the genophage needs to be in place though, because the korgan can reproduce very quickly, live a long time, and are not the smartest sentient beings in the galaxy (all they want is blood, and murder, and war, and credits).



I told Mordin to keep the geno information so that he could maybe modify it, make it so more successful births are achieved, but still limited.



The funny thing is. Only one in 1000 children survive, yet the Krogan are only "slowly" dying, that shows how fast they could reproduce.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Kid_SixXx wrote...
If the genophage wasn't used humanity would've been wiped out in the middle ages.

Hmm. The thought of knights in full plate mail fighting krogan is amuzing.

[atheelogos]

The genophage was horrible but necessary.

[Vanguard Alpha]

Not in the slightest, why would I feel bad? I'ts understandable, they have 2 options, make the krogen extinct or control there population numbers...