201 réponses à ce sujet

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Not really. Being tough is not a right for the krogan to dominate other species and the galaxy, I see Mordin's side perfectly. It was salarian's fault in first place but the genophage is obligating the krogan to unite and evolve. And I don't know, I can't really sympathize with their issue so much.

[Kid_SixXx]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Grunt says his purpose was to "fight and reveal the strongest." I think he was meant to rally the krogan to Okeer's way of thinking socially, not necessarily perpetuate it via his genes.

Keep in mind that they are as long-lived as Asari, and he's what, a week old? He has 1000 years to affect the social change the Krogan need. All the genes and such were to give him the capabilities/mentality of a warlord, so he'd survive long enough to fulfill that legacy.

Oh, I agree that Grunt will have quite a bit of socio-political affect on Krogan society, but I don't think that Okeer went through the trouble of tank-breeding the perfect Krogan using Collector tech just to provide the Krogan with a messiah figure.

What happens when Grunt fights to reveal the strongest and possibly discovers that he's the strongest?  Capitalizing on that would be futile of Okeer had no plans to see to it that Grunt's genetic traits couldn't be passed through to future generations of Krogan, especially if other Krogan warlords see Grunt as less of a leader and more of a rival and decide to try to kill him rather than follow him.

And yeah, Grunt as a genetic wellspring does seem a lot more mystical than bringing Shepard back from the dead.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Grunt says his purpose was to "fight and reveal the strongest." I think he was meant to rally the krogan to Okeer's way of thinking socially, not necessarily perpetuate it via his genes.

Keep in mind that they are as long-lived as Asari, and he's what, a week old? He has 1000 years to affect the social change the Krogan need. All the genes and such were to give him the capabilities/mentality of a warlord, so he'd survive long enough to fulfill that legacy.

This.

I think Okeer's intention with Grunt was to make it a symbol. So they look at him in the past and think "look at what this Grunt did". And he maybe would inspire other krogan scientists to look for krogan perfection instead of strengthening their numbers.

But as said on this thread, I think Grunts's life will be a lot different than what Okeer thought it would be.

[joriandrake]

Question: if humanity would spread out in galaxy, colonizing aggressively, how would you feel if the reaction from other races would be a similar genophage, and most of the children would be born dead or die soon after along with their mothers. What right would they have to decide for the entire race including civilians that what they do is the correct answer?

What the genophage in the game represents is not that different from what ****s planned to do with jews and I can't believe there are people who support the "Logic" behind it

Modifié par joriandrake, 05 août 2010 - 01:16 .

[tmk]

fantasypisces wrote...
I think having the genophage stop 999 out of a 1000 pregnancies was a little extreme.

Okeer says something along the lines of "let a thosand die in a clutch". Which seems to indicate that the krogan do not give live births. More like eggs that never hatch. Funny thing, the krogan get sentimental about that, but don't seem to have a problem with the way it was before salarian "uplifting" (i.e. all those children being born only to die later). I'm not sure if this is sloppy writing or an indication that the krogan only regret not having the numbers to fight other races, not their children dying per se.

Of course according to ME2 all that aggression is actually due to a genetic mutation that could theoretically be eliminated, either by natural selection or some sort of genetic engineering. Then again, the couple thousand years since the Krogan rebellions didn't seem to do much in that regard, but on the other hand Wrex shows capacity for rational thought while still being apparently affected by "blood rage". It's kinda hard to argue about a subject that pretty much contradicts itself. But, well, I'm just going off on a tangetial rambling that has nothing to do with the post I'm replying to, so I'll stop.

fantasypisces wrote...
The funny thing is. Only one in 1000 children survive, yet the Krogan are only "slowly" dying, that shows how fast they could reproduce.

Well, they do live for hundreds of years, and are kinda hard to kill.

Modifié par tmk, 05 août 2010 - 01:33 .

[joriandrake]

So if humanity meets a race that has a lifespan of 4 years will it be justified if they do a genophage on humanity because we don't meet their standards?

[tmk]

joriandrake wrote...What the genophage in the game represents is not that different from what ****s planned to do with jews and I can't believe there are people who support the "Logic" behind it

It is pretty different, both in cause and effect. Trolling needs to be much more subtle to be considered good.

joriandrake wrote...So if humanity meets a race that has a lifespan of 4 years will it be justified if they do a genophage on humanity because we don't meet their standards?

If humanity started taking their colonies one by one, showing no sign of intention to stop (and in fact only getting more aggressive each time) - then yea, we would be essentially asking for a genophage or worse. Because that's essentially "us or them" situation for that race.

[Whatever42]

joriandrake wrote...

Question: if humanity would spread out in galaxy, colonizing aggressively, how would you feel if the reaction from other races would be a similar genophage, and most of the children would be born dead or die soon after along with their mothers. What right would they have to decide for the entire race including civilians that what they do is the correct answer?

What the genophage in the game represents is not that different from what ****s planned to do with jews and I can't believe there are people who support the "Logic" behind it

First, krogan lay eggs. So get past the images of still births. And krogan mothers don't die. They simply lay fertilized eggs that abort.

Second, if human population doubled every 20 years and the only form of population control we would accept was war. And then we unrelentingly waged all out war on every other race, refusing to ever stop or ever surrender, yes, I would not be surprised if the other races forced some form of birth control on us.

We actually have done it to ourselves. China and their one-child policy, for example.

I'm not even going to dignify your second paragraph with a rebuttal. You should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously. What the @%^@^ were you thinking when you wrote that?

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 05 août 2010 - 01:40 .

[PsyrenY]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

What happens when Grunt fights to reveal the strongest and possibly discovers that he's the strongest?  Capitalizing on that would be futile of Okeer had no plans to see to it that Grunt's genetic traits couldn't be passed through to future generations of Krogan, especially if other Krogan warlords see Grunt as less of a leader and more of a rival and decide to try to kill him rather than follow him.

These are krogan we're talking about here. I have no doubt that Okeer is fully expecting many, perhaps even all the Warlords, to oppose Grunt and seek his death.

Remember Okeer's guiding philosophy - survival of the fittest. As far as he's concerned, if his perfect Krogan could be defeated by a bunch of bass-ackwards old warlords, then it wasn't perfect and had no business impacting the future of the Krogan. He is not merely counting on the Krogan to fight Grunt, he wants it to happen - such a trial by fire would make his prototype stronger than ever.

All he did was give Grunt a ton of advantages: A lifetime's worth of tactics and education in days... Prime physique... the memories of the most krogan krogan that ever kroganned... and above all, time. As far as Okeer is concerned, that is all that could be needed; if he fails, then the krogan race will fail, and were meant to. Better to be ground into the dust of history than survive by coddling youngsters and breeding weakness, in his opinion.

[Kid_SixXx]

joriandrake wrote...

Question: if humanity would spread out in galaxy, colonizing aggressively, how would you feel if the reaction from other races would be a similar genophage, and most of the children would be born dead or die soon after along with their mothers. What right would they have to decide for the entire race including civilians that what they do is the correct answer?

What the genophage in the game represents is not that different from what ****s planned to do with jews and I can't believe there are people who support the "Logic" behind it

Humans do colonize aggresively.  Our problem is that we do it in the Terminus systems.

Its a win for the Citadel races because if humanity succeeds then we provide stablity for the areas without the Citadel races having to get involved. 

If we don't succeed, it provides "proof" to our detractors amongt the Citadel races that humanity really wasn't ready to wield all of the influence and authority we aggressively pushed for.

[joriandrake]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Question: if humanity would spread out in galaxy, colonizing aggressively, how would you feel if the reaction from other races would be a similar genophage, and most of the children would be born dead or die soon after along with their mothers. What right would they have to decide for the entire race including civilians that what they do is the correct answer?

What the genophage in the game represents is not that different from what ****s planned to do with jews and I can't believe there are people who support the "Logic" behind it

Humans do colonize aggresively.  Our problem is that we do it in the Terminus systems.

Its a win for the Citadel races because if humanity succeeds then we provide stablity for the areas without the Citadel races having to get involved. 

If we don't succeed, it provides "proof" to our detractors amongt the Citadel races that humanity really wasn't ready to wield all of the influence and authority we aggressively pushed for.

so everything is allowed aslong the purpose and result serves our interests?

[joriandrake]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Question: if humanity would spread out in galaxy, colonizing aggressively, how would you feel if the reaction from other races would be a similar genophage, and most of the children would be born dead or die soon after along with their mothers. What right would they have to decide for the entire race including civilians that what they do is the correct answer?

What the genophage in the game represents is not that different from what ****s planned to do with jews and I can't believe there are people who support the "Logic" behind it

First, krogan lay eggs. So get past the images of still births. And krogan mothers don't die. They simply lay fertilized eggs that abort.

Second, if human population doubled every 20 years and the only form of population control we would accept was war. And then we unrelentingly waged all out war on every other race, refusing to ever stop or ever surrender, yes, I would not be surprised if the other races forced some form of birth control on us.

We actually have done it to ourselves. China and their one-child policy, for example.

I'm not even going to dignify your second paragraph with a rebuttal. You should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously. What the @%^@^ were you thinking when you wrote that?

that both of these things are terrible and shouldn't be supported by anyone

[Peridian]

Perhaps the genophage was not just meant to function as a means to limit the Krogans ability to reproduce but also to help them mature the way they were meant to without the influence of the Salarians.

[Kid_SixXx]

Optimystic_X wrote...
All he did was give Grunt a ton of advantages: A lifetime's worth of tactics and education in days... Prime physique... the memories of the most krogan krogan that ever kroganned... and above all, time. As far as Okeer is concerned, that is all that could be needed; if he fails, then the krogan race will fail, and were meant to. Better to be ground into the dust of history than survive by coddling youngsters and breeding weakness, in his opinion.

I realize this.  I just feel that the "legacy" that Okeer wanted to leave behind by creating Grunt stretches far past the obvious socio-political reasons.

The dude was a geneticist after all.  When Okeer mentions that to Shep before the fight with Jedore that Grunt has to be allowed to llve, I don't think he was just waxing philosphically.

[PsyrenY]

joriandrake wrote...

so everything is allowed aslong the purpose and result serves our interests?

Humans colonize empty worlds. The Krogan Rebellions involved taking over ones that were already settled. Difference.

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
All he
did was give Grunt a ton of advantages: A lifetime's worth of tactics
and education in days... Prime physique... the memories of the most
krogan krogan that ever kroganned... and above all, time. As far as
Okeer is concerned, that is all that could be needed; if he fails, then
the krogan race will fail, and were meant to. Better to be ground into
the dust of history than survive by coddling youngsters and breeding
weakness, in his opinion.

I realize this.  I just
feel that the "legacy" that Okeer wanted to leave behind by creating
Grunt stretches far past the obvious socio-political reasons.

The
dude was a geneticist after all.  When Okeer mentions that to Shep
before the fight with Jedore that Grunt has to be allowed to llve, I
don't think he was just waxing philosphically.

I'm not
saying it's impossible that Grunt was meant to be a genetic catalyst for
future generations of Krogan. I just think the primary purpose behind
the genes was to give him a free pass to Warlord status.

I mean,
for all Okeer knew Grunt could end up having an Asari fetish (like
Charr) and never settled down with his own race. Or even more
hilariously, he could've ended up gay. The genetic change angle is too dicey.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 05 août 2010 - 02:05 .

[joriandrake]

Peridian wrote...

Perhaps the genophage was not just meant to function as a means to limit the Krogans ability to reproduce but also to help them mature the way they were meant to without the influence of the Salarians.

Well, if other races start toi meddle with humans to "help mature us" then I would say thanks but no thanks

[joriandrake]

Optimystic_X wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

so everything is allowed aslong the purpose and result serves our interests?

Humans colonize empty worlds. The Krogan Rebellions involved taking over ones that were already settled. Difference.

atleast that is what is claimed, but as far we know it was more like they were a minority and then their minorities grew to become the majority there peacefully

[Kid_SixXx]

joriandrake wrote...

Kid_SixXx wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Question: if humanity would spread out in galaxy, colonizing aggressively, how would you feel if the reaction from other races would be a similar genophage, and most of the children would be born dead or die soon after along with their mothers. What right would they have to decide for the entire race including civilians that what they do is the correct answer?

What the genophage in the game represents is not that different from what ****s planned to do with jews and I can't believe there are people who support the "Logic" behind it

Humans do colonize aggresively.  Our problem is that we do it in the Terminus systems.

Its a win for the Citadel races because if humanity succeeds then we provide stablity for the areas without the Citadel races having to get involved. 

If we don't succeed, it provides "proof" to our detractors amongt the Citadel races that humanity really wasn't ready to wield all of the influence and authority we aggressively pushed for.

so everything is allowed aslong the purpose and result serves our interests?

1. Humans colonizing the Terminus systems isn't all that great of a deal for us even though it grants us the autonomy we desire.

2. Humans were never involved in the events that led up to the genophage so it really doesn't serve human interests.  Theoretically it may have saved our collective butts because it stopped Krogan expansionism before it got going.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 05 août 2010 - 02:06 .

[joriandrake]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Kid_SixXx wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Question: if humanity would spread out in galaxy, colonizing aggressively, how would you feel if the reaction from other races would be a similar genophage, and most of the children would be born dead or die soon after along with their mothers. What right would they have to decide for the entire race including civilians that what they do is the correct answer?

What the genophage in the game represents is not that different from what ****s planned to do with jews and I can't believe there are people who support the "Logic" behind it

Humans do colonize aggresively.  Our problem is that we do it in the Terminus systems.

Its a win for the Citadel races because if humanity succeeds then we provide stablity for the areas without the Citadel races having to get involved. 

If we don't succeed, it provides "proof" to our detractors amongt the Citadel races that humanity really wasn't ready to wield all of the influence and authority we aggressively pushed for.

so everything is allowed aslong the purpose and result serves our interests?

1. Humans colonizing the Terminus systems isn't all that great of a deal for us even though it grants us the autonomy we desire.

2. Humans were never involved in the events that led up to the genophage so it really doesn't serve human interests..

I meant "our" as in Citadel

[PsyrenY]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

All he did was give Grunt a ton of advantages: A lifetime's worth of tactics and education in days... Prime physique... the memories of the most krogan krogan that ever kroganned... and above all, time. As far as Okeer is concerned, that is all that could be needed; if he fails, then the krogan race will fail, and were meant to. Better to be ground into the dust of history than survive by coddling youngsters and breeding weakness, in his opinion.

I realize this. I just feel that the "legacy" that Okeer wanted to leave behind by creating Grunt stretches far past the obvious socio-political reasons.



The dude was a geneticist after all. When Okeer mentions that to Shep before the fight with Jedore that Grunt has to be allowed to llve, I don't think he was just waxing philosphically.

I'm not saying it's impossible that Grunt was meant to be a genetic catalyst for future generations of Krogan. I just think the primary purpose behind the genes was to give him a free pass to Warlord status.



I mean, for all Okeer knew Grunt could end up having an Asari fetish (like Charr) and never settled down with his own race. Or even more hilariously, he could've ended up gay. The genetic change angle is too dicey.

[joriandrake]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
All he did was give Grunt a ton of advantages: A lifetime's worth of tactics and education in days... Prime physique... the memories of the most krogan krogan that ever kroganned... and above all, time. As far as Okeer is concerned, that is all that could be needed; if he fails, then the krogan race will fail, and were meant to. Better to be ground into the dust of history than survive by coddling youngsters and breeding weakness, in his opinion.

I realize this. I just feel that the "legacy" that Okeer wanted to leave behind by creating Grunt stretches far past the obvious socio-political reasons.

The dude was a geneticist after all. When Okeer mentions that to Shep before the fight with Jedore that Grunt has to be allowed to llve, I don't think he was just waxing philosphically.

I'm not saying it's impossible that Grunt was meant to be a genetic catalyst for future generations of Krogan. I just think the primary purpose behind the genes was to give him a free pass to Warlord status.

I mean, for all Okeer knew Grunt could end up having an Asari fetish (like Charr) and never settled down with his own race. Or even more hilariously, he could've ended up gay. The genetic change angle is too dicey.

if a person can be mixed up using genes to have the best traits of various leaders/heroes/soldiers I am sure Okeer also made it sure that Grunt doesn't have genetic mutations, irregularities, or failures

[Kid_SixXx]

Optimystic_X wrote...
I mean,  for all Okeer knew Grunt could end up having an Asari fetish (like Charr) and never settled down with his own race. Or even more hilariously, he could've ended up gay. The genetic change angle is too dicey.

Rana's training program taught the tank-bred all they needed to know and from the conversation with the tank-bred Krogan you meet, it seems like they are definitely pre-disposed towards certain types of behavior and arguably it is by design.

I don't think you're giving Okeer or the Collectors the credit they may be due as far as their scientific specializations and research go.

[PsyrenY]

joriandrake wrote...

if a person can be mixed up using genes to have the best traits of various leaders/heroes/soldiers I am sure Okeer also made it sure that Grunt doesn't have genetic mutations, irregularities, or failures

Mindset isn't a genetic trait though. This is abundantly clear because Grunt did not share Okeer's views  on many things; he doesn't care about many of the things Okeer cared about. Like any rebellious son and father.

(I'll overlook the implications of what you consider to be "genetic failures.")

[Roamingmachine]

The Krogan were set to overrun the galaxy with sheer numbers.Couple that with their bloody mindedness and the genophage ends up as the KINDEST way to end the war.Other alternative would have been to nuke them from orbit, just to be sure.

[Kid_SixXx]

joriandrake wrote...

so everything is allowed aslong the purpose and result serves our interests?

I meant "our" as in Citadel

EDIT: What the poster above me said.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 05 août 2010 - 02:24 .