201 réponses à ce sujet

[joriandrake]

Optimystic_X wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

if a person can be mixed up using genes to have the best traits of various leaders/heroes/soldiers I am sure Okeer also made it sure that Grunt doesn't have genetic mutations, irregularities, or failures

Mindset isn't a genetic trait though. This is abundantly clear because Grunt did not share Okeer's views  on many things; he doesn't care about many of the things Okeer cared about. Like any rebellious son and father.

(I'll overlook the implications of what you consider to be "genetic failures.")

how genes work are not known even today entirelly, a father and a son can have as example the same habits despite never meeting each other, like the way they walk, fiddle with their hands, or pick their noses, there are many such things that prove that genes even hold such information, and this points to the possibility that everything may be encoded into genes, not just physical appearance

also, I don't know what you mean by implying anything to be genetic failure

Roamingmachine wrote...

The Krogan were set to overrun the
galaxy with sheer numbers.Couple that with their bloody mindedness and
the genophage ends up as the KINDEST way to end the war.Other
alternative would have been to nuke them from orbit, just to be
sure.

couldn't they come up then with better methods,
like, teach them the use of condoms perhaps? or atleast lowering total birthrate or
increasing time to mature for individuals instead of having misbirths
and such to avoid a species-wide horror?

It could have been done as in the one episode of Stargate where in an alternate future aliens fiddled with human birthrate atleast

Modifié par joriandrake, 05 août 2010 - 02:28 .

[PsyrenY]

JBean wrote...

monkeycamoran wrote...

No, it's a game.

btw i hate when ppl use this excuse.  movies and television can make ppl feel emotional, etc.  why would games be any diff. especially considering how fast they've evolved.  saying 'it's just a game' belittles games in general.  if gamers dont take it seriously as form of entertainment on the lvl of movies, etc, then honestly how can we expect anyone else (like Roger Ebert) to take it seriously?

I agree with your post completely (though Roger Ebert can still take a flying leap.)

SirVincealot wrote...

It's best not to think about it too much, really. At least for me. Most of MASS EFFECT is so . . . pedestrian.

The fact that we're embroiled in a 7-page argument over a fictional disease belies your argument.

[Kid_SixXx]

Optimystic_X wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

if a person can be mixed up using genes to have the best traits of various leaders/heroes/soldiers I am sure Okeer also made it sure that Grunt doesn't have genetic mutations, irregularities, or failures

Mindset isn't a genetic trait though. This is abundantly clear because Grunt did not share Okeer's views  on many things; he doesn't care about many of the things Okeer cared about. Like any rebellious son and father.

(I'll overlook the implications of what you consider to be "genetic failures.")

We're not talking about mindset so much as we're talking about behavioral traits like sexual orientation and research is ongoing today figuring out if those tendencies are genetically disposed.

Grunt could come to his own conclusions about how he felt about Okeer but in a game where science can literally bring man a man back from the dead (and it's not even the science of the most advanced race out there), I don't find it difficult to believe that Okeer coudn't have used Collector tech to "breed" Grunt in such a way to be pre-disposed to heterosexual behavior.

The Krogan libedo being what it is, yeah, there's no way to really predict who Grunt would be attracted to but again, he's tank-bred and created by tech from a race that excels in genetic science.  Okeer could've tinkered Grunt to favor Krogan females over all else, but we don't know that for sure.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 05 août 2010 - 02:35 .

[joriandrake]

Heck, in this sci-fi and timeframe, it may be even possible to predetermine if Grunt's favorite color is red or blue

[PsyrenY]

I'm not going to open the can of worms of whether or not homosexuality is genetic, or whether it can be "cured" in ME's hypothetical future. Suffice it to say that neither current science nor Mass Effect has concluded that it is, therefore Okeer was making a considerable gamble if the genetic improvement angle was truly his goal, rather than the socio-political one.



Even if he is straight, Grunt seems to care little about anything beyond fighting, including breeding. Perhaps that mindset will change in 100 years or so, but given that he can die long before fathering any children it is still a risk. Yet he's already had a political impact - convincing Uvenk (and Wrex) that tank-bred Krogan are not the abominations they are stigmatized as. So it makes more sense to me that Okeer would have been pursuing the latter, rather than the former.

[Roamingmachine]

couldn't they come up then with better methods,
like, teach them the use of condoms perhaps? or atleast lowering total birthrate or
increasing time to mature for individuals instead of having misbirths
and such to avoid a species-wide horror?

It could have been done as in the one episode of Stargate where in an alternate future aliens fiddled with human birthrate atleast

It was war and the situation was desperate.In those circumstances you use the weapons you know will work.Krogan were lucky that the council had the genophage option instead of just mass-driver bombardment.

[Kid_SixXx]

Optimystic_X wrote...
I'm not going to open the can of worms of whether or not homosexuality is genetic, or whether it can be "cured" in ME's hypothetical future..

Why not?  It is a resonable rebuttle if kept free of the usual political or ideological claptrap.  I don't think I've made any insulting or inflamatory comments.

My argument is that Grunt was built to last in more ways than one and that includes passing along his genetic traits to future generation of Krogan.  Okeer being able to blueprint this "Frankenstein" as he saw fit and with the assistance of Collector tech is the cornerstone of my argument.

Sci-fantasy withstanding, I think I have made a reasonable case even if some of the points are drawn from complete hypothesis based on tech which is liable never to exist ever outside of a sci-fi game.

Optimystic_X wrote...

Therefore Okeer was making a considerable gamble if the genetic improvement angle was truly his goal, rather than the socio-political one.

For someone who was gambling, Okeer seemed to hedge his bets very well and he was very calculating.  I don't think that he took as many chances as you think he did.

I think the only thing that took him off guard was Jedore's ego.

Optimystic_X wrote...
Even if he is straight, Grunt seems to care little about anything beyond fighting, including breeding.

He is barely a few days old and got dropped in the middle of an armed conflict.  Give him some time. 

We'll see how he fares once those "breeding requests" that EDI mentions after his loyalty mission start rolling in. 

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 05 août 2010 - 02:51 .

[joriandrake]

Roamingmachine wrote...

couldn't they come up then with better methods,
like, teach them the use of condoms perhaps? or atleast lowering total birthrate or
increasing time to mature for individuals instead of having misbirths
and such to avoid a species-wide horror?

It could have been done as in the one episode of Stargate where in an alternate future aliens fiddled with human birthrate atleast

It was war and the situation was desperate.In those circumstances you use the weapons you know will work.Krogan were lucky that the council had the genophage option instead of just mass-driver bombardment.

Well that is a good point in their defense atleast, still doesn't make me agree with it, the psychologic factor from seeing that happen to their race is probably more horrid than to nuke away 80% of their population, among other reasons because it is an ongoing "event" thus it can't just be forgotten and every single generation goes through its terrors so they can't even forget it with the passing generations

[joriandrake]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Therefore Okeer was making a considerable gamble if the genetic improvement angle was truly his goal, rather than the socio-political one.

For someone who was gambling, Okeer seemed to hedge his bets very well and he was very calculating.  I don't think that he took as many chances as you think he did.

I think the only thing that took him off guard was Jedore's ego.

For me the actions of Okeer look as something that can result in a Krogan variant of Andromeda's Nietzscheans

[PsyrenY]

joriandrake wrote...

Heck, in this sci-fi and timeframe, it may be even possible to predetermine if Grunt's favorite color is red or blue

Somehow I doubt that, as (a) there are real-world genetic diseases that still exist in the future (e.g. Vrolik Syndrome: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteogenesis_imperfecta) and ( there are new ones that remain unsolvable (e.g. Thane's disease, the Quarian immune system etc.)

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Therefore Okeer was making a considerable gamble if the genetic improvement angle was truly his goal, rather than the socio-political one.

For someone who was gambling, Okeer seemed to hedge his bets very well and he was very calculating.  I don't think that he took as many chances as you think he did.

I think the only thing that took him off guard was Jedore's ego.

Optimystic_X wrote...
Even if he is straight, Grunt seems to care little about anything beyond fighting, including breeding.

He is barely a few days old and got dropped in the middle of an armed conflict.  Give him some time. 

We'll see how he fares once those "breeding requests" that EDI mentions after his loyalty mission start rolling in. 

His only reaction to those was to laugh at the one Shepard received.

And the issue here IS a mindset issue. Strengthening the Krogan genetically does nothing to wean them off the "horde" mentality that made them a target for genocidal responses in the first place. Changing their mindset does.

[Maestro975]

There is something called the carrying capacity. It is hubris to suggest that sentient species are exempt from it. If a civilization stubbornly refuses to use birth control for some backward reason, then the genophage serves them right.

If someone multiplies like rabbits on fertility drugs, resulting in such severe overpopulation that resources that should have lasted for 200 years are dried up in 50, prompting them to pretty much invade another area and repeat the process, there is only one thing in the animal kingom that does this: a virus. 

Krogan brought the genophage on themselves, all they had to do was use some BC. Their refusal to do so was backward.

[PsyrenY]

In fairness to the Krogan, they already had natural birth control - i.e. Tuchanka itself. They were conditioned towards high breeding rates because of the natural mortality of their homeworld.



It was the comparatively carebear colony worlds they ended up on, that resulted in their conditioned response becoming overkill. I agree they should have taken a step back and stopped there, but again, the Salarians are not entirely blameless in what happened.

[Maestro975]

Optimystic_X wrote...

In fairness to the Krogan, they already had natural birth control - i.e. Tuchanka itself. They were conditioned towards high breeding rates because of the natural mortality of their homeworld.

It was the comparatively carebear colony worlds they ended up on, that resulted in their conditioned response becoming overkill. I agree they should have taken a step back and stopped there, but again, the Salarians are not entirely blameless in what happened.

But the salarians and asari intended a relatively small deployment, just to give the krogan a wakeup call, but without doing permanent genetic damage to the species as a whole. It was the turians (new to both the Council and the war), with their victory by attrition mentality, that decided to use it on the entire species.

[joriandrake]

Maestro975 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

In fairness to the Krogan, they already had natural birth control - i.e. Tuchanka itself. They were conditioned towards high breeding rates because of the natural mortality of their homeworld.

It was the comparatively carebear colony worlds they ended up on, that resulted in their conditioned response becoming overkill. I agree they should have taken a step back and stopped there, but again, the Salarians are not entirely blameless in what happened.

But the salarians and asari intended a relatively small deployment, just to give the krogan a wakeup call, but without doing permanent genetic damage to the species as a whole. It was the turians (new to both the Council and the war), with their victory by attrition mentality, that decided to use it on the entire species.

Which could be compared to a scenario where the USA in WW2 wouldn't just drop 2 nukes on Japan, but nuke every single city wih a population of 1 million+

[Kid_SixXx]

Optimystic_X wrote...
His only reaction to those was to laugh at the one Shepard received.

So why does Grunt laugh?

Is he assuming that Shepard is "not Krogan" enough to handle a Krogan female?

Or is he laughing because he realizes that maybe Shep is perhaps a bit more Krogan than Shep thinks he is?

Optimystic_X wrote...
Strengthening the Krogan genetically does nothing to wean them off the "horde" mentality that made them a target for genocidal responses in the first place.

Yes it does.  Grunt represents the idea that breeding cannot "defeat" the genophage but the evolution of the Krogan as a species can help future generations endure it.

The genophage has hammered the Krogan collective psyche for a long time.  Krogan being what they are, it will take more than waxing philosophically to convince the Krogan that breeding for the sake of boosting numbers solves nothing.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 05 août 2010 - 03:43 .

[PsyrenY]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Strengthening the Krogan genetically does nothing to wean them off the "horde" mentality that made them a target for genocidal responses in the first place.

Yes it does.  Grunt represents the idea that breeding cannot "defeat" the genophage but the evolution of the Krogan as a species can help future generations endure it.

The genophage has hammered the Krogan collective psyche for a long time.  Krogan being what they are, it will take more than waxing philosophically to convince the Krogan that breeding for the sake of boosting numbers solves nothing.

It will also take more than simply creating a stud krogan, even if he dedicates every waking hour to sex to ensure that more than one of his thousand pregnancies is viable.

I've come to realize that I'm not arguing with your point of view, not really - I recognize that Grunt represents both genetic and social advancement of the krogan. The breakdown between the two approaches isn't as important, so long as we agree that both are needed.

EDIT: My point in referencing Grunt's laugh, is that he showed no sign of interest in taking up one of his own offers - add that to Kelly's assessment of him, and he doesn't seem to have much sex drive at the moment. His opinion of Shepard's offer, while funny, wasn't relevant to my point. (Noteworthy however, is that FemShep gets the same breeding request as well.)

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 05 août 2010 - 03:47 .

[joriandrake]

Kid_SixXx wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
His only reaction to those was to laugh at the one Shepard received.

So why does Grunt laugh?

Is he assuming that Shepard is "not Krogan" enough to handle a Krogan female?

Or is he laughing because he realizes that maybe Shep is perhaps a bit more Krogan than Shep thinks he is?

Probably because he imagines Shepard being squished by a krogan girl

[Kid_SixXx]

Optimystic_X wrote...
I've come to realize that I'm not arguing with your point of view, not really - I recognize that Grunt represents both genetic and social advancement of the krogan. The breakdown between the two approaches isn't as important, so long as we agree that both are needed.

I didn't think we were arguing at all. Merely stating the merits and detriments of our own points of view. 

I didn't even see where we really disagreed with the other person's ultimate opinion.  We both more or less came to the same conclusion (Krogan thinking needs to change) but only differed in our view of Grunt's role as facilitator of that change.

I think we both realize that the true solution is somewhere in the middle of our views on the issue.

I like this thread.  I would much rather discuss the pseudo-science rather than sift through the dozens of love interest or "does my armor make my butt look fat?" threads on this board.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 05 août 2010 - 04:50 .

[PsyrenY]

Agreed - though epic threads (like Grunt's "poop vent") can still arise out of the more inane premises

What I'm curious about, is how Okeer got his hands on DNA strands from the top Warlords. Did the Collectors have a drawer-full of toenail clippings/bloodstains on file, or did Okeer go gathering those materials up himself? Or did they "eyeball it" and sort of guess what kinds of traits were shared by Shiagur etc, and backed into the genetics required to duplicate those traits?

[PsyrenY]

kzzrn wrote...

Krogan have very long lifespans, and considering how much genetic material is shed by an organic in just one year I would imagine samples would be easy to find.

While that is true, we're not talking about just picking up skin cells from random krogan here. He got samples from a number of very specific and famous individuals (e.g. Shiagur.) That stretches the bounds of credulity.

[MerrickShep]

-Delete Post-

Modifié par MerrickShep, 06 août 2010 - 10:14 .

[joriandrake]

Optimystic_X wrote...

kzzrn wrote...

Krogan have very long lifespans, and considering how much genetic material is shed by an organic in just one year I would imagine samples would be easy to find.

While that is true, we're not talking about just picking up skin cells from random krogan here. He got samples from a number of very specific and famous individuals (e.g. Shiagur.) That stretches the bounds of credulity.

Drago Museveni

[Kid_SixXx]

joriandrake wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

kzzrn wrote...

Krogan have very long lifespans, and considering how much genetic material is shed by an organic in just one year I would imagine samples would be easy to find.

While that is true, we're not talking about just picking up skin cells from random krogan here. He got samples from a number of very specific and famous individuals (e.g. Shiagur.) That stretches the bounds of credulity.

Drago Museveni

That's a bit different.  The Nietzschean race was bio-engineered while the Krogan were not. 

Krogan may not be as genetically diverse as humans or even "present day" Nietzscheans, but it would still take a lot of geneological study and effort for Okeer to get samples of DNA from the most celebrated Krogan warlords and battlemasters. 

Even more difficult if Okeer was doing most of the heavy lifting himself.  I think the only aid the Blue Suns were providing was financial support.

It was comparably easier for Tyr to more or less accomplish the same feat as Okeer because Tyr only needed one primary sample of DNA (ie. Drago's).
Probably the closes analogy to Okeer creating Grunt is... COBRA's creation of Serpentor, maybe.

Now we're really talking GEEK!

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 06 août 2010 - 12:57 .

[PsyrenY]

Cerberus actually gives me a strong Cobra vibe