440 réponses à ce sujet

[Shwiggliness]

He had a high ranking position in the Blue Suns, shouldn't he know a thing or two about leading?

[Hk47sPappy]

Because the Blue Suns turned on him. He apparently wasn't a good leader. Also, if you listen to his stories he usually ends them by saying he was the only one to come out alive. Reminds me of Elliot Reed.

[jklinders]

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

[Bluko]

Yea I never got that either, he really should be another canidate for Fire Team Leader. Now some will say Garrus, Jacob, and Miranda are better cause they don't get people killed. I will remind them that Garrus got his entire vigilante group killed, Jacob has never been an Officer really, and while Miranda makes sense, Cerberus folk don't exactly value their personnel a whole lot. I'm mean sure Zaeed's a cold hearted bastard but I'm sure he's still a capable squad leader. Zaeed might be uncaring but he's not going to kill his own squad if he can help it, I mean it doesn't make any sense.

But I guess Bioware thought Zaeed was just too much of grumpy old bastard. Either that or they only want 3 max for choosable postions.

[Shwiggliness]

That' wasn't Garrus's fault. Sidonis did betray him.

[TruYuri]

Bluko wrote...
I will remind them that Garrus got his entire vigilante group killed

And that's where you'd be wrong. They were betrayed, the betrayal led to their deaths.

[MrVincent]

Because Bioware didn't program the suicide mission that way.

[smudboy]

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

To me that's a reason for being great at being a fire team leader.  His own Suicide Mission he came out alive.  As with every other mission.

It's arguable, but no one, save from Samara, has more experience than Zaeed.

Zaeed gets a characters arc, if solved Paragon style, teaches him to be part of a team.

And how him being the fire team leader, gets the tech expert killed = completely illogical.

If he's chosen for the 2nd team leader, he dies?  Even though he's Mr. Survival?  Illogical.

Simple answer: BioWare botched the Suicide Mission.  (Same argument for Samara, Garrus as tech expert, Jacob as biotic bubble, etc.)

[smudboy]

Shwiggliness wrote...

That' wasn't Garrus's fault. Sidonis did betray him.

Right.  And we can apply that same argument to Zaeed, with Vido.

[Lunatic LK47]

smudboy wrote...

To me that's a reason for being great at being a fire team leader.  His own Suicide Mission he came out alive.  As with every other mission.

Uh, no one in their right mind would trust someone who has a track history of team members dying under his command. Why did Captain Herbert Sobel get removed from tactical command during World War II despite having a semi-harsh military regimen? He was just not fit for the real battles. Zaeed is more or less the same.

It's arguable, but no one, save from Samara, has more experience than Zaeed.

Samara worked alone for centuries. It's as stupid as expecting Batman to command the U.S. military.

Zaeed gets a characters arc, if solved Paragon style, teaches him to be part of a team.

He doesn't have much leadership skills at all. He may have been a founder of Blue Suns, but the mercs must have turned on him for good reason besides the "more credits" thing..

And how him being the fire team leader, gets the tech expert killed = completely illogical.

Who would want to listen to someone with a track history of getting his people killed?

If he's chosen for the 2nd team leader, he dies?  Even though he's Mr. Survival?  Illogical.

I don't think half of Zaeed's earlier missions included him acting as a bullet sponge.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 03 août 2010 - 11:18 .

[jklinders]

smudboy wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

To me that's a reason for being great at being a fire team leader.  His own Suicide Mission he came out alive.  As with every other mission.

It's arguable, but no one, save from Samara, has more experience than Zaeed.

Zaeed gets a characters arc, if solved Paragon style, teaches him to be part of a team.

And how him being the fire team leader, gets the tech expert killed = completely illogical.

If he's chosen for the 2nd team leader, he dies?  Even though he's Mr. Survival?  Illogical.

Simple answer: BioWare botched the Suicide Mission.  (Same argument for Samara, Garrus as tech expert, Jacob as biotic bubble, etc.)

Combat experience=/= leadership experience. This goes goes double for Samara who has spent more than half her life as a recluse. Zaeed was betrayed by his own organization and while he has surviuved his missions the people around him do not. Bioware did not "screw up" the suicide mission. They made their own decisions about who would do well at what. The game would 3 years from release if all the variables you wanted to be shown were accounted for.

[Docbrown777]

Because he's a selfish feminine hygiene product.



I wish I could compact him into a cube and blow him out the airlock.

[smudboy]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, no one in their right mind would trust someone who has a track history of team members dying under his command. Why did Captain Herbert Sobel get removed from tactical command during World War II despite having a semi-harsh military regimen? He was just not fit for the real battles. Zaeed is more or less the same.

And we only heard of a few of his stories.  How many of his tories don't involve people dying under his command?

I'll take a 20 year vet with a burning revenge over a 2 year long mercenary, a genetically enhanced ice queen, and a random gun for hire.

Samara worked alone for centuries. It's as stupid as expecting Batman to command the U.S. military.

And both have insane amounts of experience.  I find it ridiculous to say that Samara, knowing how to be alive in dangerous, combat situations all this time, wouldn't know how to help or prevent others from dying if she was in charge of them.

As for a Batman argument?  Batman is considered the smartest man on earth.  A master of every martial art.  Being able to Xanatos Gambit the crap out of everyone: including his entire team.  It's a bad analogy you've made, but you want Batman to be President becuase he'll end up controlling the President anyway out of his insane urge to control things.

He doesn't have much leadership skills at all. He may have been a founder of Blue Suns, but the mercs must have turned on him for good reason besides the "more credits" thing..

I just told you he gets a character arc to be part of a team.  What you've written doesn't follow that.

If Zaeed gets paid to do a job, he does it the way Shepard tells him to do it.  The Paragon arc should've solidified that.  BioWare thought otherwise.

Who would want to listen to someone with a track history of getting his people killed?

So because Garrus was betrayed, he suddenly sucks at being a genius infiltrator?

I don't think half of Zaeed's earlier missions included him acting as a bullet sponge.

Exactly.  He's a survivor.  If what you were saying about Zaeed is true, then everyone around Zaeed would've died, and not him.

[smudboy]

jklinders wrote...
Combat experience=/= leadership experience. This goes goes double for Samara who has spent more than half her life as a recluse. Zaeed was betrayed by his own organization and while he has surviuved his missions the people around him do not. Bioware did not "screw up" the suicide mission. They made their own decisions about who would do well at what. The game would 3 years from release if all the variables you wanted to be shown were accounted for.

If you've had combat experience for next to 1000 years, and you're asked to lead a team in a combat experience, then yes, combat experience is easily applicable to leadership experience.  Samara is very patient and considerate of others, and brutally efficient at other times.  Considering she also has 5000 sutras on how to handle every situation in the galaxy, lethally, I think she can handle keeping herself, and others, alive.

And Garrus was betrayed by his own organization.

BioWare did screw up the suicide mission royally.

Um?  No it wouldn't.  All it would need is clearer explanations as to why characters work, and actually making those characters work, through simple flags (Zaeed and Samara as leaders, Jacob as a biotic bubble, Garrus as a tech expert.)

[Dave of Canada]

smudboy wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

That' wasn't Garrus's fault. Sidonis did betray him.

Right.  And we can apply that same argument to Zaeed, with Vido.

Vido wasn't the only part where Zaeed had a lot of men die on him, though. Some were legit missions.

[Lunatic LK47]

smudboy wrote...
If you've had combat experience for next to 1000 years, and you're asked to lead a team in a combat experience, then yes, combat experience is easily applicable to leadership experience.  Samara is very patient and considerate of others, and brutally efficient at other times.  Considering she also has 5000 sutras on how to handle every situation in the galaxy, lethally, I think she can handle keeping herself, and others, alive.

Uh, did Samara have any partners or side-kicks in her Justicar duties? As far as we can tell, none. She did specifically say "I worked alone for centuries." On top of that, she doesn't have the command experience to have underlings listen to her orders. It's just as insipid as expecting a socially awkward soldier with no leadership experience to succeed in commanding multiple soldiers under his command despite having a decent combat record. Lack of communication skills= dead soldiers due to SNAFUs that could have been rectified by better communication.

[chapa3]

smudboy wrote...


Simple answer: BioWare botched the Suicide Mission.  (Same argument for Samara, Garrus as tech expert, Jacob as biotic bubble, etc.)

Well Jacob does not seem to be such an adept biotic (yes, his specialty skill is barrier, but it only works for him), and if you mean Samara as squad leader, she has experience but has displayed neither leadership nor squad tactical abilities. I do agree on Garrus and Zaeed in their expected roles as infiltrator and squad leader respectively. I can also weakly argue that Thane could also be a candidate for the vents (he must have considerable hacking expertise from his skill in navigating through entire wards and skyscrapers, I highly doubt he climbed through ventilation shafts throughout 'every' assassination).

[jklinders]

smudboy wrote...

jklinders wrote...
Combat experience=/= leadership experience. This goes goes double for Samara who has spent more than half her life as a recluse. Zaeed was betrayed by his own organization and while he has surviuved his missions the people around him do not. Bioware did not "screw up" the suicide mission. They made their own decisions about who would do well at what. The game would 3 years from release if all the variables you wanted to be shown were accounted for.

If you've had combat experience for next to 1000 years, and you're asked to lead a team in a combat experience, then yes, combat experience is easily applicable to leadership experience.  Samara is very patient and considerate of others, and brutally efficient at other times.  Considering she also has 5000 sutras on how to handle every situation in the galaxy, lethally, I think she can handle keeping herself, and others, alive.

And Garrus was betrayed by his own organization.

BioWare did screw up the suicide mission royally.

Um?  No it wouldn't.  All it would need is clearer explanations as to why characters work, and actually making those characters work, through simple flags (Zaeed and Samara as leaders, Jacob as a biotic bubble, Garrus as a tech expert.)

Oh get over it, seriously. Someone whose social skills do not amount to a sack of snot like Samara would likely see the solution to a combat problem but fail to communicate it to her squad. It takes lots more than being a ggod fighter to be a good leader.

Garrus being betrayed by one of his team is only applicable to his leadership if it happens again, therefore your problem with him as fire team leader is irrelevent unless you think there should have been a betrayal in the game.

Garrus is not a "tech expert". He is a sniper who can trigger the odd overload. Likewise, Jacob, Miranda are not Biotic specialists.

You are crying in part because all the failures of the specialists are not custom made for each character, that is more code, more triggers more variables. For more on what that causes please cheack out Alpha Protocol.

[chapa3]

"Garrus is not a "tech expert"."

He was in ME1, in fact, many people used him as their decrypter when cracking open safes and containers. I doubt he would lose his talents over a span of 2 years.

Basically, this is how a lot of ME1 players got Garrus killed in the suicide mission.

Modifié par chapa3, 03 août 2010 - 11:46 .

[Dave of Canada]

chapa3 wrote...

"Garrus is not a "tech expert"."

He was in ME1, in fact, many people used him as their decrypter when cracking open safes and containers. I doubt he would lose his talents over a span of 2 years.

There's a difference between knowing some tech and being able to open Collector base doors. I can probably hack into most computers quite easily but give me the task of hacking anything with a competent security? No dice.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 août 2010 - 11:47 .

[Lunatic LK47]

smudboy wrote...

And we only heard of a few of his stories.  How many of his tories don't involve people dying under his command?

I'll take a 20 year vet with a burning revenge over a 2 year long mercenary, a genetically enhanced ice queen, and a random gun for hire.

The same mercenary who went on numerous missions where he has a big track record of men dying under his command almost every single time? I'm pretty sure the Blue Suns didn't sign up for the company just to walk into death.

As for a Batman argument?  Batman is considered the smartest man on earth.  A master of every martial art.  Being able to Xanatos Gambit the crap out of everyone: including his entire team.  It's a bad analogy you've made, but you want Batman to be President becuase he'll end up controlling the President anyway out of his insane urge to control things.

Did Batman have any military training experience? Does he know how to command infantry, armor, and air assets perfectly? Can Batman end military wars? Last time I checked, he was mostly smart in applications of physical sciences and a decent detective. As far as commanding people goes, he only commanded Robin, Nightwing, and to a lesser extent Batgirl while only partnering up with the rest of the DC universe when the situation calls for it.

I just told you he gets a character arc to be part of a team.  What you've written doesn't follow that.

If Zaeed gets paid to do a job, he does it the way Shepard tells him to do it.  The Paragon arc should've solidified that.  BioWare thought otherwise.

Last time I checked, Shepard did not say "Follow my orders and you get to command a squad." All he said is "Work as part of a team" and nothing else. Is critical thinking really that hard?

Who would want to listen to someone with a track history of getting his people killed?

So because Garrus was betrayed, he suddenly sucks at being a genius infiltrator?
.

Exactly.  He's a survivor.  If what you were saying about Zaeed is true, then everyone around Zaeed would've died, and not him.

A survivor who only escaped by blind luck or was well hidden elsewhere while his minions took the majority of the slugs.

[jklinders]

chapa3 wrote...

"Garrus is not a "tech expert"."

He was in ME1, in fact, many people used him as their decrypter when cracking open safes and containers. I doubt he would lose his talents over a span of 2 years.

Basically, this is how a lot of ME1 players got Garrus killed in the suicide mission.

He was an infiltrator, just like in ME2. Opening a crate is not the same as opening highly secure security doors under pressure. He has the ability but gets a rocket in the face because he is not fast enough.

[smudboy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

That' wasn't Garrus's fault. Sidonis did betray him.

Right.  And we can apply that same argument to Zaeed, with Vido.

Vido wasn't the only part where Zaeed had a lot of men die on him, though. Some were legit missions.

Of course.  We don't know what happened on those missions.  Where Zaeed would give a command and get his squad killed?  Those guys could've been morons.  The enemy could've overpowered them.  Luck.  Lots of things happened.

The point is Zaeed has 20 years worth of experience of those possible events, and would know how to deal with them.  He wouldn't have survived if he didn't.

And if he just uses his team as cannon fodder, how come he gets himself killed at being a 2nd squad team leader?  Doesn't make sense.

[smudboy]

jklinders wrote...
Oh get over it, seriously. Someone whose social skills do not amount to a sack of snot like Samara would likely see the solution to a combat problem but fail to communicate it to her squad. It takes lots more than being a ggod fighter to be a good leader.

For someone with no social skills, Samara certainly has a lot to say to Shepard when they talk.  Definitely more than Jacob and Garrus...probably combined.

Garrus being betrayed by one of his team is only applicable to his leadership if it happens again, therefore your problem with him as fire team leader is irrelevent unless you think there should have been a betrayal in the game.

Right.  Same argument with Zaeed then.

Garrus is not a "tech expert". He is a sniper who can trigger the odd overload. Likewise, Jacob, Miranda are not Biotic specialists.

I seem to recall him having some rather good tech skills in ME1: Decryption, Damping and Electronics.

His role?  Infiltrator.  As in, infiltrating enemy bases.

You are crying in part because all the failures of the specialists are not custom made for each character, that is more code, more triggers more variables. For more on what that causes please cheack out Alpha Protocol.

It's not more code.  It's ONE FLAG.

[atheelogos]

Shwiggliness wrote...

He had a high ranking position in the Blue Suns, shouldn't he know a thing or two about leading?

by all rights he should work just fine.