440 réponses à ce sujet

[Ogrek]

Personally, I find it funny that, despite some people quoting Zaeed's stories where he almost always loses at least one person who's under his command, that they're surprised if putting Zaeed in charge of a team results in you... losing a squad member. And then arguing that he'd be a great squad leader - he might be okay with running a situation, but he's more the hardass who kills everything and survives to do the next job (until now) rather than being the guy who gets them all out alive AND gets the job done. He's too busy killing the hell out of the enemy in front to worry about the enemy to the left sniping the squad because he forgot to make sure everyone was watching their assigned target zone for hostiles.

Garrus, on the other hand, lost his whole team despite keeping them alive AND accomplishing his mission for two years due to a situation beyond his control - he got led off by Sidonis, and then the squad got killed because he wasn't there to get them to hunker down and watch one another's backs (plus not having one other member there to run cover, on top of having their defenses presumably compromised). He's a hothead, but Shepard at least taught him to keep an eye on the goal and his team. That, and he's still a team player despite being a wanna-be cowboy; that's why he didn't pull a Zaeed and try to clear out Omega himself, but instead built a team which worked together to frustrate the mercs.

Now Miranda's a snotty ****, and I never gave her command after seeing how she went all catty on everyone - Shepard included. She might be listed as a "Cerberus Tactician", and she may be conscientious about organizing things, but her arrogance made her a liability, as the Barrier situation showed. I'm presuming TIM knows all this, which is why he put Shepard in charge of the mission instead of Miranda...

Jacob's trained as a Marine as well - so he knows how to take orders, and how to run with a team. He may not be the most inspired leader, but he at least seems to know how to watch his six and make sure his team's covering each other while they go for the goal. He may not be as special as Shepard, but he's less of a tool than Miranda is.

But I ALWAYS brought Zaeed along for the mission - he's not the best guy for heading a squad, but he's dependable so long as he and you know his job; to kill everything and anything in front of him.

Modifié par Ogrek, 06 août 2010 - 04:47 .

[IanPolaris]

IoCaster wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Looks around furtively.....

OK, here's my two cents being a vet myself. Zaeed IS a bad leader. He's the kind of person that would make a terrific career private or junior non-com in the French Foreign Legion because he's a badass, but he doesn't have the intrinsic ability to get people to do what they need to do under his command without them even realizing it either via example or fear.

This brings us right back around to the fact that these aren't soldiers. These people are essentially freelance operatives. We've got a psychotic biotic, an assassin, a krogan berserker, an ascetic monk archetype that kills without remorse, a cutthroat and cold-blooded Cerberus operative (Miranda) and an STG veteran that engineered a sterilization (final solution) of a species. Throw in a Quarian that's agreeable to the extermination of an AI sentient species and a Turian that's an acknowledged renegade. Two mercs for hire (Zaeed and Kasumi) and a Geth with questionable motives that seems to be obsessed with Shepard-Commander. That leaves us with one quasi-normal individual AKA Jacob.

If you've taken or had any military style leadership training, you'd know that doesn't matter.  There are a few people out there that simply lead others instinctively.  It is a skill and it can (and has) been successfully taught, but the fact remains that a leader is one that can get the most out of his troops whether they or their troops have a military style background or not.  In fact both in OCS and ROTC (and I am sure in the Academy as well since the Academy dictates what is taught in officer leadership) this point is continually reemphasized.  The skills to make a great solder are distinct from those that make a good leader (esp combat leader).

So let's look at them as a TAC-NCO at OCS might look at the various candidates.  Jacob is officer material.  He is raw but makes what he regards as the right decisions for his unit and does so without hesitation and reasonable confidence.  His personal confidence could probably use a bit of a boost, but from what we see of Jacob, he is the passing product of a modern military-style officer training program....and lo and behold...in the game he is an acceptable fire-team leader (both times). [If Loyal]

Garrus is a natural leader and has both the combat experience and most importantly confidence that Jacob lacks.  When you follow Garrus, you know he will look out for you and the whole unit and he inspires others to look out after him (read the letter of the widow from Garrus' unit.....only a natural leader could inspire such a thing under the cicumstances).  Futhermore Garrus by his sheer force of personality put together one of the most effective SWAT teams in the Terminus systems in one of the most inhospitable places for it (Omega) and he and his unit THRIVED until he was betrayed.  Next to Shepard, himself (herself), Garrus is probably the best natural leader in the group.  Naturally he is an acceptable Fire Team leader (both times) [again if Loyal]

Honestly from a TAC-NCO perspective that's it for your list of acceptable leaders or "officer candidates".  Tali doesn't have the force of personality or confidence needed to get people to follow her instinctively.   Jack is a psychotic lunatic that shouldn't some anywhere near a position of leadership.  Moriden is much the same as Tali.  He has more confidence but even less force of personality.  Samara has plenty of personaltiy but as Chambers remarks, she is distant and cold.  She is your prototypical lone wolf and would tend to "do things and solve issues on her own" rather than use her squaddies to their best abilities.....and thus winds up not being a good leader (this is a common failing in OCS Cadets btw).  Miranda doesn't inspire trust in her team members nor does she inspire enough fear to make up for it (and in OCS anyway the Tac-NCOs always point out to the candidates that it's far easier to pull a rope across a river....ie lead from the front...than it is to push it from behind....lead from fear).  This is where the game fails.  Miranda should be a terrible combat leader but isn't.....and I smell plot hook here.  Thane is much the same as Samara actually and Kasumi is just a terrible leader all around (not only is she a lone wolf but doesn't have the skills, training, or temprement to help squaddies out even if she wanted to). 

Then there are those you'd think might be OK leaders because they are superb soldiers but aren't.  These are Grunt, Zaeed, and Legion.  All three suffer from the same thing.  They have no interest in working with others and have no regard (or limited regard) for their squadmates.  In the case of Grunt much of this is simple inexperience (but Wrex would make a bad combat leader too...by his own admission in ME1).  In fact all three remind me a bit of Wrex when he says that Wrex says in ME1, "I don't like having other people rely on me and I certainly don't rely on others."  That can be the trait for a superb solder, esp a survivor, but invariably makes a bad leader.

What qualification or experience does a regular army officer have that enables him/her to compel these operatives to follow his/her lead? The only squad member that has any experience to meet the challenge, other than Shepard, is Zaeed. BioWare created this scenario and they're the ones that have to somehow make sense of it. I'm looking at this objectively and I'm not sure what they were thinking.

You are forgetting Garrus.  Garrus clearly had the Turian equivalent of OCS at least somewhere down the line either in the Turian military itself or as part of C-Sec.  Garrus reported directly to Palin, the Chief of Police of the entire Citidel (think Police Commissioner).  Only Captians or very senior dectectives would have that sort of access which tells me that Garrus was (and is) a commissioned Turian officer.

You are also forgetting Lieutenant Jacob Tylor who clearly had leadership training as part of the Alliance.  That means he's had and successfully passed leadership tests before both for the Alliance and Cerberus under combat conditions.  I am not saying Jacob is the best leader of the bunch (I'd rate him after Shepard and Garrus) but he at least gets a passing grade.

As for the others, there is no evidence that Zaed had leadershipo training other than basic NCO leadership training and certainly (see his loyalty missions and conversations) doesn't act like it.  Zaeed reminds me of a French Foreigh Legion "career" Private (the FFL is one of the few that permit career privates).  Such a private is a superior soldier and one that his officers would lean heavily on for a resource (you need to send a person to take and hold a foxhole under fire.....send Zaeed...he'll find a way to do it), but don't trust any lives to his command....at least not without a good supply of bodybags.  That doesn't make Zaeed a bad person....just a bad leader (and he admits he doesn't like or want to depend on others....a sure sign of a bad leader).  

Grunt is also a natural soldier but lacks experience and patience to be a good leader.  Grunt clearly isn't a natural leader, but leadership is a skill that can be learned, and it's at least remotely possible that Grunt could learn it...but doesn't have it yet.

I've already explained the others.  In addition, what you forget is some people are natural leaders.  That's just a fact and the militaries the world over search their ranks for such people to put them in leadership positions sometimes with ridiculously little formal background, rank, or other experience.  For most of us, Leadership is a skill that can be learned and must be practiced.  For a few (and I think Jack, Samra, Thane, and Zaeed qualify), no amount of training can make them a good leader...their personality/outlook simply precludes it.  This fact is why the French Foreign Legion permits career privates and why until relatively recently most armies (including the US Army) permitted warrent officers and non-leadership senior "specialist" enlisted ranks to get the most from those that simple would not or could not lead but had valuable skills otherwise.

-Polaris

[IoCaster]

-Snip some profoundly stupid sh!t-

Remember kids, don't drink and post. My sincere apology to all.

Modifié par IoCaster, 06 août 2010 - 08:25 .

[IanPolaris]

IoCaster wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
-snip-

-Polaris

I forgot nothing. You haven't made the case that these freelance operatives give a sh!t about Garrus or Jacob. Zaeed has at least been there and done that. Which one of these supposed leaders (Garrus or Jacob) have ever been on a suicide mission?

You can literally lead Garrus about by the nose and that's a fact. Starting from ME:

Shep, "Don't shoot Dr.Saleon, Garrus."
Garrus, "Yes, you're probably right."

ME2:
Shep, "Don't shoot Sidonis, Garrus."
Garrus, "Yes, you're probably right."

This is the guy that's going to be assertive enough to corral a bunch of wacky psychos into following his lead?

How exactly is a straight-laced SOB like Jacob going to command any attention from a bunch of freelancers? He can barely contain himself when Shepard decides to accept Thane as a member of the squad. I'm at a loss to explain why you think that Thane should be concerned with whatever Jacob has to say about anything.

This is a problem with the narrative, this isn't West Point.

Look dude, lose the attitude.

What I said makes perfect sense from a leadership training perspective and I should know having experienced both sides of it.

You are "Cherry Picking" lines.  You have to look at the entire narrative over ME1 and ME2.  When you do, you find that Garrus is a superb leader.

However, you sir have obviously learned everything there is to know.  All I have to do is ask you.

Seriously, try a little humility and a lot more respect.

-Polaris

Edit:  Seriously, let's not forget that in those lines Garrus (and Jacob) are talking to Shepard who (either Paragon or Renegade) probably has the most natural leadership ability and charisma in the known galaxy.  Of course everyone else is goind to sound a little insipid next to that (because it's hard to show that much natural charisma on a video screen).  That's why you had to judge them by interactions OFFSCREEN (when Shepard isn't stealing the show).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 août 2010 - 06:08 .

[IanPolaris]

IoCaster wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
-snip-

-Polaris

I forgot nothing. You haven't made the case that these freelance operatives give a sh!t about Garrus or Jacob. Zaeed has at least been there and done that. Which one of these supposed leaders (Garrus or Jacob) have ever been on a suicide mission?

Garrus has been, twice at this point (I consider trying to clean up Omega with a squad to be a suicide mission) and don't forget Illos.

Edit:  Actually at least three times since apparently when a member of the Turian Military, he helped raid a Batarian Pirate fleet that was also considered little more than a suicide mission.  He mentions this after his loyalty mission.  I am sure there are more.

Also "been there/done that" does not make you a good leader and anyone that's had any military leadershipo training knows it.  It DOES make you a valuable resource, but leadership is a skill.  It's a skill that makes others care about the team's goals and mission even when you might be a total stranger.

Military discipline is more than enough in barracks, but when the lead flies around you, all the military discipline in the world won't keep your squad alive.  Their training and your ability to lead them and use that training is what makes the difference.

If you pay attention to what the various NPCs do and have done on and off screen (even from comments by others), it's clear that Garrus and Jacob have it (leadership ability) and Zaeed doesn't.  You simply refuse to listen to any evidence that contradicts your own preconceived notions which means futher conversation with you is likely pointless.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 août 2010 - 06:22 .

[IoCaster]

-Snip some profoundly stupid sh!t-

Remember kids, don't drink and post. My sincere apology to all.

Modifié par IoCaster, 06 août 2010 - 08:26 .

[SupidSeep]

@IoCaster

Why don't you just admit you don't have any solid arguement to countor IanPolaris' detailed and well thought-out arguement.

[IanPolaris]

IoCaster wrote...

No personal disrespect was intended. I'm looking at it from a detached perspective and trying to fit everything within the narrative. I can certainly imagine all kinds of ways to manipulate the story into making sense or otherwise make sh!t up to fill in the gaps. That's not my job though. I prefer to rely on the devs and writers to provide a coherent storyline.

Personal disrespect was taken and apology not accepted.  You made a point of quoting my point and then snipping all of it.  That is beyond rude.  It shows you have no regard for the arguments I have made.  In fact it shows (as evidenced by your reply) that you never bothered to read them.

If you did, you'll find that I AGREED with you that the Devs fouled it up.  Where they fouled up was not Zaeed but Miranda.  I served with people like Zaeed both in the service and seen them as mercs.  They are NOT leadership material.  They often ARE terrific soldiers, however (or in one case a terrific bodyguard).

What you persistantly fail to realize is what the rest of us have been trying to tell you for pages now and what militaries all over the world have known for thousands of years.  Leadership is a distinct skill.  It can be trained, but being a badass soldier is not enough to make you a good leader.  In fact it's not all that necessary.

As far as your gratuitous demand that I, "lose the attitude", I have nothing but disdain for your attempt to characterize my response as somehow insulting to you personally. Just as I have little to no regard for your claim to have experience with "leadership training", as if it's some kind of unique accomplishment. Been there, done that.

Clearly you haven't or you'd know that I am right on this.  Leadership is a skill that can be taught and taught well, but also is something that some people have a naturally high aptitude for and some don't.  Most that don't can be trained to be at least decent leaders, but there are a few that will always be hopeless in a leadership position no matter what.

I'll leave it to everyone else, but the way you responded (especially by quoting and snipping all my material and then responding with your own theme) was most definately a personal insult.

-Polaris

[RiouHotaru]

I'd also like to add to Polaris' argument that Zaeed did pretty much all his jobs for the money. He is after all one of the best MERCENARY/BOUNTY HUNTERS in the Terminus Systems. In any of the jobs he waxes goddamn nostalgic about, he's usually working with a different group of people each time, and it's never made clear if he was even the leader in those groups. I'd even argue that the only reason he's working with a group of people in the first place is specifically for the money, not out of any sense of being comrades or friends.



His loyalty mission is a clear indicator of this. Shepard basically has to slap (punch really, best Paragon interrupt ever next to Overlord's!) the fact that if you're going to be on a team you have to be a TEAM PLAYER. The fact Shepard has to give the speech at all proves that Zaeed doesn't usually play for the team, he plays for himself.



Garrus has all the necessary credentials and experience. If you want to call his C-Sec experience into question, note that Executor Pallin says Garrus is one of his BEST agents (I think) or at the very least, is a VERY good investigator, but that's he a bit idealistic, beleving the law shouldn't get in the way of justice. Anyone you talk to regarding Garrus/Archangel (from each game respectively) admits to his considerable skill and/or charisma.



Miranda's credentials are a bit suspect due to the fact that apparently people don't especially trust her, but her management and combat skills are well-documented. The Illusive Man has had her work on a fair number of projects before being appointed Head Director of the Lazarus Cell, and the fact she's the Head Director at all shows that TIM at least sees her as quite capable at leading, and getting people to follow. Likely what happens during the Suicide Mission is sure, the team headed by Miranda is a bit leery, but she quickly proves herself with capable combat abilities and her potent application of tactics.



Jacob was a surprise for me, as I wasn't expecting him to be considered as a good Fire Team leader. His profile during the selection screen doesn't make it obvious, but the fact that he's the guy you talk to about the readiness of your group, as well as his considerable amount of Alliance training is a subtle (perhaps too subtle) clue as to his capability as a leader.



Also, note that the game gives you at least 3 good choices for each of the major positions (Tech expert, Fire Team Leader, Biotic Bubble is the exception of course, and Crew Escort fits anyone who's loyal), so who the people most qualified for the position has to make sense.

[IoCaster]

 
-Snip some profoundly stupid sh!t-

Remember kids, don't drink and post. My sincere apology to all.

Modifié par IoCaster, 06 août 2010 - 08:27 .

[IanPolaris]

IoCaster wrote...

I'll grant you the Turian mission against the Batarians, although I don't recall that conversation. The Omega stuff was hardly a suicide mission and I didn't bother to bring him with me to Ilos. Half the time I didn't even recruit him in ME. You can obviously get invested in the story to whatever extent you feel is appropriate, but I fail to see how I'm somehow bound to agree with your interpretation of events. I'm also under no obligation to accept your characterization of Garrus as a "superb leader".

Talk with Garrus after his loyalty mission and get him talking about your chances and suicide missions.  If he's loyal, he'll open up about that mission.

As for Illos,. the "default" (i.e. ME2 with no prior save) is that Garrus did indeed accompany you to Illos and was part of your squad and IIRC most people take him.  So Illos counts (and in the same conversaion, you even say, "You should be used to suicide missions by now" and then mention Illos.

As for Omega, you seriously are trying to tell me that setting up a do-gooder vigelante squad ON OMEGA that manages to make mortal enemies of not one, not two, but all three major merc gangs in Omega isn't a suicide mission?!?  Yet Garrus had the loyalty and devotion of his entire squad anyway (as the widow's letter makes clear as do third party accedotal accounds including Aria's).

As for "accepting Garrus" as a superb leader, you aren't even obligated to accept the sky is blue.  However, for those that want to look at the game evidence objectively, I think it's fairly safe to say that Garrus is in fact a superb leader.  He's not as good as Shepard, but then again who is?

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Also, note that the game gives you at least 3 good choices for each of the major positions (Tech expert, Fire Team Leader, Biotic Bubble is the exception of course, and Crew Escort fits anyone who's loyal), so who the people most qualified for the position has to make sense.

I think they wanted three good choices for all of them with a full squad but you're right about the biotic bubble.  Only a loyal Jack and/or loyal Samara/Morinth fit the bill there (although Miranda is arrogant enough to think otherwise).  Likewise originally there were only two tech experts.  Kasumi is a late addition.  However, the fact that Kasumi is a valid tech expert should nix any idea that Zaeed is not a valid fire-team leader just because he's a DLC character.

Honestly there should only be two good fire-team leaders.  Jacob and Garrus.  However, like I said before, I smell a strong sense of plot immunity surrounding Miranda and I strongly suspect she will play a critical role in ME3 one way or the other.  Near as I can tell, the ONLY way that even a non-loyal MIranda can die is if she is non-loyal and accompanies you for the final encounter.  In such a case Shepard also dies and the game is no longer valid for an ME3 continuation.  Thus I think Mirada was written the way she was in order to keep her alive for ME3.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  From all the info I get in the game, Mirada is an absolutely stellar organizer and adminstrator.  She's exactly the sort of person you'd want running an Army or Air Force Base (for example).  She's the perfect S2 and serves that function on the Normandy (Operations Officer), but nothing I've seen shows that she's a natural or even good leader.  Again I smell plot hook.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 août 2010 - 07:03 .

[RiouHotaru]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think they wanted three good choices for all of them with a full squad but you're right about the biotic bubble.  Only a loyal Jack and/or loyal Samara/Morinth fit the bill there (although Miranda is arrogant enough to think otherwise).  Likewise originally there were only two tech experts.  Kasumi is a late addition.  However, the fact that Kasumi is a valid tech expert should nix any idea that Zaeed is not a valid fire-team leader just because he's a DLC character.

Honestly there should only be two good fire-team leaders.  Jacob and Garrus.  However, like I said before, I smell a strong sense of plot immunity surrounding Miranda and I strongly suspect she will play a critical role in ME3 one way or the other.  Near as I can tell, the ONLY way that even a non-loyal MIranda can die is if she is non-loyal and accompanies you for the final encounter.  In such a case Shepard also dies and the game is no longer valid for an ME3 continuation.  Thus I think Mirada was written the way she was in order to keep her alive for ME3.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  From all the info I get in the game, Mirada is an absolutely stellar organizer and adminstrator.  She's exactly the sort of person you'd want running an Army or Air Force Base (for example).  She's the perfect S2 and serves that function on the Normandy (Operations Officer), but nothing I've seen shows that she's a natural or even good leader.  Again I smell plot hook.

I'd argue that her organization and administrative skills would make her a good leader.  After all, if you're in a position of management, you have be good at leading people, or at least getting them to fall in line.  Applying for any management position in today's market requires that you learn/pick up/acquire some level of leadership.  While you're right in that the game doesn't make her ability as a leader as obvious as it does Garrus or Jacob (and even with Jacob it's remarkably soft-spoken), I'd make the claim that her ability to head the many successful Cerberus projects that TIM assigned her too, speak volumes for potential leadership skills.  From what we know, the only UNsuccessful operation was the Lazurus Project, and the only "failure" was Wilson compromising the station, which she apparently predicted or anticipated anyway.

[IoCaster]

-Snip some profoundly stupid sh!t-

Remember kids, don't drink and post. My sincere apology to all.

Modifié par IoCaster, 06 août 2010 - 08:27 .

[IoCaster]

-Snip some profoundly stupid sh!t-

Remember kids, don't drink and post. My sincere apology to all.

Modifié par IoCaster, 06 août 2010 - 08:28 .

[The Grey Ranger]

He never has been and never will be a squad lead for me, not because of his stories, but because, he will put his personal feelings above the mission.  This is proven by his loyalty mission.  When you recruit him he explains that he was hired to retake the refinery on Zorya, not blow it up in a quest for personal revenge.    He puts killing Vido in revenge for something that happened 20 years ago over getting the job done.  Epic fail for a leader.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
Here's my two cents being a vet myself. Zaeed is a mercenary and qualified to lead a bunch of mercenaries in the game. So...?
[/quote]

His actions on his loyalty mission prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he's NOT leadership material.  One of the first things you learn in leadership is how to take orders as well as give them, and how to function as part of a team.  Zaeed fails spectacularly at both.  We've been telling you this for pages now.

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
What does this [refering to military leadership training] have to do with a video game and specifically ME2? Seriously, I'm asking you what does it have to do with the game and the narrative as presented?
[/quote]

Because it EXPLAINS the narrative.  Zaeed is not a good leader.  The game makes that perfectly clear if you'd bother to listen to the narrative.


[quote]A game dependent loyalty 'flag' and nothing to do with reality. What does any of this have to do with a video game?
[/quote]

A game dependant loyalty flag is shorthand for the follower's overall morale and ability to concentrate on the mission.  In real situations, that can be a vital concern.  You are being far too literal.  The loyalty flag as the game explains (if you'd bother to listen) indicates how dedicated the follower is to the mission and/or how distracted they are.


[quote]A game dependent loyalty 'flag' and nothing to do with reality. I don't understand why you're trying to dress this up with real life military training and/or experience. You do realize this is a game, right?
[/quote]

Bolluxs.  A game "Loyalty Flag" is game shorthand for a lot of different morale effects and problems that we don't have time to play out (and wouldn't want to even if we had the time).  Troop morale is important and the "loyalty flag" is simple shorthand for this.

[quote]I understand what you're trying to do, but it's not really relevant. What the discussion is about is whether or not there's sufficient information contained within the game to conclude that Zaeed is qualified to lead a combat team in the game. There isn't anyone that I can think of that's trying to make the case that Zaeed is a capable "real world combat leader". So really, what's your point?
[/quote]

You clearly do NOT know what I am trying to do.  I am trying to show you that the narrative (with the exception of Miranda) does make sense when you put real life leadership criteria by the fictional characters.  At some point however, you have to aknowledge that this is a game.  To wit, is there enough information to indicate that Zaeed would be sub-par as a combat leader.

YES and I explain IN GAME (as have others) how you can reasonably draw that conclusion before you have to choose.  Zaeed in his loyalty mission does not play well with others.  That's enough to disqualify him right there.  He also cares only about being paid, doesn't care much whether his mates survive or note (and even in the case of the Turian cruiser he bagged, bragged that he got a massive reward because is team-mates did NOT survive).  All in all Zaeed is a terrific soldier who ultimately cares about one thing:  the care and feeding of Zaeed, and that makes him a lousy leader....and the game does make that perfectly clear.


[quote]Geeze, why are you equating a fictional Turian OCS with a real world example? Where in the real world do we have a bunch of comic book hero types strutting around doing this insane sh!t? WTF?!?
[/quote]

You asked a question about qualifications in the game world, so I gave you Garrus' military leadership qualifications in the same game world.  Turians are the most respected and dominate military force in Citidel Space.  That means that Turian OCS (or whatever) would be at least as good as our own (probably better actually since Garrus flat out states that Turians have fewer personelle restrictions within their military....which means more leadership headaches).

Don't ask a question and then get upset if the answer isn't what you expected!


[quote]Again I ask you why are you trying to equate a fictional character to real life? What's the point?
[/quote]

The POINT is to show that within the world/game, we had every reason to believe that both Garrus and Jacob had more than sufficient background, training, experience, and aptitude to be good combat fireteam leaders.  The same can not be said of anyone else.

   [quote]
The reason I initially snipped all of this content is that it was mostly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
[/quote]

As others have been patiently trying to explain to you, it is VERY relevant since it forms our background understanding as to how each NPC would fare in a leadership role.


[quote]You can shove it. That wasn't an apology and you haven't earned one.
[/quote]

Touchy, touchy.  Free advice:  Don't ask leading questions unless you really know the answers to them.  The fact is I called you to the carpet correctly both for your response and tone.  Quoting and snipping all content is very rude.  Either don't quote it, or at least read it, and respond.


[quote]Oh, you got your feelings hurt on a message board. I'm done with your supercilious twerp ass. Seriously, trying to exert your absolute and oh so unique military experience on my veteran ass is beyond pathetic. It's a freaking game and either it adheres to the narrative or it doesn't. Your unbounded admiration for Garrus and Jacob don't mean squat. Or perhaps you're trying to persuade people that BioWare actually took into account that:
[/quote]

You just can't accept the fact that I made a valid point and perhaps (at least regarding Zaeed), BW might have actually gotten this right.



[quote][quote]
"...militaries the world over search their ranks for such people to put them in leadership positions sometimes with ridiculously little formal background, rank, or other experience.  For most of us, Leadership is a skill that can be learned and must be practiced.  For a few (and I think Jack, Samra, Thane, and Zaeed qualify), no amount of training can make them a good leader...their personality/outlook simply precludes it.  This fact is why the French Foreign Legion permits career privates and why until relatively recently most armies (including the US Army) permitted warrent officers and non-leadership senior "specialist" enlisted ranks to get the most from those that simple would not or could not lead but had valuable skills otherwise."[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to make the case that any of that was an integral part of the design process in the game? Because if that's not the case then what the hell are you talking about? You're simply trying to play the "I'm a military expert and I can assure you that Zaeed sucks in real life and sucks in the game too". Like I said before, you can take that crap and peddle it on mainstreet.
[/quote]

Considering you can "win" the game (i.e. have a valid ME3 save) with no one surviving but you and the two you took with you to the final confrontration, I don't think that ANY of the evaluations of who is or isn't suited to any particular role in the suicide mission played a particularly important part in ME2 (other than who will live for ME3).  However, I DO in fact think they took leadership ability of all the major characters (as well as biotic and tech abilities) into account when the made the suicide mission and I DO think that for the most part BW decided correctly.....again I dissent with many posters here about Miranda, but again I strongly suspect that for a valid ME3 game, BW decided early on that Miranda HAD to survive the suicide mission (and this was the easy way to do it....by making her the best fire-team leader).

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 août 2010 - 08:28 .

[IanPolaris]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'd argue that her organization and administrative skills would make her a good leader.  After all, if you're in a position of management, you have be good at leading people, or at least getting them to fall in line.  Applying for any management position in today's market requires that you learn/pick up/acquire some level of leadership.  While you're right in that the game doesn't make her ability as a leader as obvious as it does Garrus or Jacob (and even with Jacob it's remarkably soft-spoken), I'd make the claim that her ability to head the many successful Cerberus projects that TIM assigned her too, speak volumes for potential leadership skills.  From what we know, the only UNsuccessful operation was the Lazurus Project, and the only "failure" was Wilson compromising the station, which she apparently predicted or anticipated anyway.

I take your point.  However, in most cases a manager (while they certainly do need leadership skills!) is a different breed of cat than a combat leader.  After all, as a manager, you have the authority of the organization/company behind you (which should be used judiciously but it's there).  While techncially military law is there in the field, if you need to point to the bars on your collar to get a subordinate to follow orders in combat, you've just shown EPIC FAIL as a leader (even if you survive it).

In short, I don't really see Miranda as inspiring enough (either from dedication or failing that dread) to really be sure of getting her people to instinctively follow her lead when the hot lead is flying.  She's a much closer case than the others I admit because you're right...she is a suberb manager.  Miranda would be my choice as a Base Commander or S2 pretty much everytime and that does take some leadership potential.

Even so, I am still not convinced that Miranda is even as good a leader as Jacob (let alone Garrus) let alone so overwhelming stellar that she can suvive as both Fire Team leaders even if she is not Loyal (she is the only one that can survive in that slot if not loyal).  That tells me that Bioware has given Miranda plot immunity since IMHO she clearly is not a better leader than Jacob let alone Garrus in combat.

-Polaris

[PsyrenY]

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

This. Poor leader is poor.

[Super ._. Shepard]

yeh he did lead a merc gruop for years

[IanPolaris]

Super ._. Shepard wrote...

yeh he did lead a merc gruop for years

Not exactly.  He founded (or more accurately co-founded) a merc group and it's never made clear just how long Zaeed was in command of the unit.  Again there is a difference between being an administrator and combat commander, and it's also a fact that his Merc unit essentially "fragged" Zaeed.  Yes, Vido was the instigator, but Vido had the full support of the troops that Zaeed was supposedly the commander of.

Frankly for all his vile nature, Vido is a better leader than Zaeed.

-Polaris

[IoCaster]

-Snip some profoundly stupid sh!t-

Remember kids, don't drink and post. My sincere apology to all.

Modifié par IoCaster, 06 août 2010 - 08:28 .

[IoCaster]

IanPolaris wrote...

Super ._. Shepard wrote...

yeh he did lead a merc gruop for years

Not exactly.  He founded (or more accurately co-founded) a merc group and it's never made clear just how long Zaeed was in command of the unit.  Again there is a difference between being an administrator and combat commander, and it's also a fact that his Merc unit essentially "fragged" Zaeed.  Yes, Vido was the instigator, but Vido had the full support of the troops that Zaeed was supposedly the commander of.

Frankly for all his vile nature, Vido is a better leader than Zaeed.

-Polaris

Just rely on the facts, you don't have to make sh!t up. 

Vido wanted to recruit Batarians and Zaeed disagreed because he considered them to be a bunch of terrorist scum. Vido got some cronies to help him take down Zaeed. It was something like "Hey guys, we can make some serious bank if we recruit some Batarians. I'll cut you a big share if you help me take out Zaeed." I don't imagine he had any trouble finding a few accomplices. I don't know where you got this idea that Vido had the full support of the troops. He got six scumbags to help him take out Zaeed. It was not a popular revolt by any stretch. Vido wasn't a leader he was a ward heeler.

Modifié par IoCaster, 06 août 2010 - 10:37 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

Except for the fact that you can persuade him to actually...you know...take orders. You can even persuade him to integrate into your team. So...? Are you willing to concede that all of those "pages of non-persuasive arguments" were bunk? And, oh by the way, he's one of the few squad members that actually have a character arc. You can interact with him and find out that he's aware of the threat that the Collectors and Reapers pose to humanity and the galaxy as a whole. You can even find out that he's apparently fully committed to the mission without reservation.
[/quote]

Actually you can't initiate any conversation with Zaeed at all.  Like Kasumi his conversation arc is extremely limited.  Also following orders after being pistolwhipped by your squad leader is NOT the makings of a good follower.

Everyone can see it but you.  The fact that Shepard is FORCED IN COMBAT to persuade Zaeed to follow perfectly reasonable orders BY FORCE shows just how unsuitable a combat leader Zaeed is.  Seriously I wonder what sort of leadership training you had in the service because this is about as basic as it gets.

[quote]
This particular conceit that he's not "leadership material" is based on what exactly? You've already admitted that you're not persuaded that Miranda fits that criteria but that BioWare chose differently. How can you then assume that you're the definitive authority to choose which character is or is not suitable? Here's a hint, it's a video game and the devs make choices that are not consistent with your preconceived notions. It's weird how that works, eh?
[/quote]

I have had and been involved in leadership training.  Independantly of what Bioware has to say, I can tell in the game that Zaeed is simply not leadership material.  In fact it's not that hard.  As for Miranda, Cereberus did not exactly choose differently.   By Miranda's own admission she's not generally been involved with the 'military side' of Cerberus.  Most of Miranda's leadership involves administering technical and scientific programs....a position for which she is excellently suited (she's almost the perfect S2).

As for the Devs not going with my "preconceived notions", horsefeathers.  I am willing to discuss in a reasonable way with others about Miranda as a combat leader and am willing to aknowledge good points in her favor (neither of which you seem willing to do with me).  However, the notion that Miranda is a better leader than anyone else in the group (save Shepard) is clearly ridiculous.......yet Miranda and only Miranda can survive the fireteam leader assignment (second one) without being loyal....and thus I smell plot hook.

[quote]
According to you. You keep saying that and proclaiming that, like my perspective doesn't matter because you're the ultimate authority. If you bothered to take the full narrative into account you might well have a different perspective. That's the way it worked for me. Do you not understand that to my eyes the narrative failed to make the case that Zaeed is the ultimate suck at leading combat teams? Especially when I have to concede that Miranda is the better choice. What part of that narrative specific, cognitive dissonance isn't slapping you stupid?
[/quote]

Not according to me.  According to pretty much everyone that posts here except you.  I normally don't appeal to vox populari, but when everyone is saying that Zaeed is a poor combat leader but you, you really need to rethink and reassess your position.  The majority isn't always right, but if you find you are a minority of one, the odds of you being right and everyone else being wrong is....well...slim at best.

As for "your eyes", I guess you listen and hear to what you want.  I have told you and shown you multiple examples within the Narrative why Zaeed is the third or fourth best combat leader at best (and I wouldn't rate him that high).  His stories, actions on his loyalty mission, the fact he cares ultimately only for the care and feeding of Zaeed, all point to a lack of fundamental leadership skills.

At this point you are choosing to ignore the evidence the game gives you, and af that point I can't help you (no one can).

[quote]
Are you seriously giving any credence to the loyalty 'flag' contrivance as a "morale, focus or concentration" barometer? I don't know how to respond to that level of credulity. You can't possibly be serious. It's a simple software check to determine whether or not a specific character survives a checkpoint or not. Sheesh!
[/quote]

What part of SHORTHAND did you miss?  Of course on a meta level, it's a software flag.  Gee, a LOT of things that make the characters and story interesting are composed of interlocking software flags.

When we PLAY THE GAME and immerse ourselves in the word, we interpret what those flags mean as they are presented by the game!  That's the freaking POINT of playing a CRPG!  The loyalty flag is a way of showing that the follower is functioning at 100% effectiveness which is shorthand for a lot of things which the game actually does explain and show.


[quote]
Bolluxs? Morale effects? I don't even...how do...? I'm not even sure that I want to explain this to you. Eh, whatever.
[/quote]

Are you saying in real life that troop morale doesn't matter?  I hope not because that would be about the silliest thing you would have said yet.  The software flags are SHORTHAND for this!  What's not to get?



[quote]No, you're clearly taken with the idea that your perspective is the only correct and unassailable measure of the character. You don't ever refer to what influence his character arc might have or how it might be taken into account as a part of your assessment. It's all either anecdotes or loyalty mission, but ignoring the actual interaction that you have with the character throughout the bulk of the game. It's a total blind spot that you've failed to acknowledge, but keep digging.
[/quote]

Zaeed (like Kasumi) doesn't change once you have done their loyalty missions.  Seriously.  You can not interact with them in any meaningful way with them whatsoever.  All you hear are converstation arcs.  That means that YES, Zaeed's behavior on his loyalty mission is the prime evidence and it's really the only evidence you need to see.  For him to lose his temper and jeapordize not only the mission but everyone else's life as well for pride and revenge shows just how poor a leader he is.  Again, this stuff is taught to Specialists who want to become Sergeants.  It's that basic.  Zaeed fails fundamental tests of leadership not once but repeatedly and his stories indicate the same mentality.

[quote]
This is the question that I asked:

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
What qualification or experience does a regular army officer have that enables him/her to compel these operatives to follow his/her lead? The only squad member that has any experience to meet the challenge, other than Shepard, is Zaeed. BioWare created this scenario and they're the ones that have to somehow make sense of it. I'm looking at this objectively and I'm not sure what they were thinking.[/quote]

How does any of that OCS nonsense prepare an officer to deal with a gang of freelance operatives or mercs? Your answer was a bunch of self-serving bunk with no relevance to the initial question. Let me state my question clearly enough that it can't be misunderstood. Why would any of the ragtag bunch of freelance mercs/operatives be impressed with Jacob, Garrus or Miranda, as opposed to Zaeed?
[/quote]

You clearly haven't experienced OCS then.  OCS and officer leadership in general is specifically DESIGNED to help you deal with others in highly dangerous and stressful situations often under less than ideal conditions.  That's a HUGE part of what combat officer leadership training is all about.

Garrus and Jacob clearly show such training in the game.  Zaeed does not.

[quote]
Here's an analogy to chew on. Let us suppose that you get one candidate each from Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Pakistan, Indonesia and Iran. Are they supposed to be impressed with some OCS or academy drone? The odds are that an actual badass with twenty years of experience in the field would have more credibility.
[/quote]

I have seen situations just as you describe and you'd be surpised.  Naturally they'd respect a person with 20 years of experience who is a badass, but as I've said before (and as anyone that's had leadership experience knows) just being a badass isn't enough.   It may give you some initial "cred" to start with, but if you become known for being a "cowboy" who puts his own skin ahead of the lives of others, you won't last long...and it might not be from an enemy weapon.  Bullets tend not to care which uniform the target is wearing.  Funny that.

[quote][quote]
The POINT is to show that within the world/game, we had every reason to believe that both Garrus and Jacob had more than sufficient background, training, experience, and aptitude to be good combat fireteam leaders.  The same can not be said of anyone else.[/quote]

That would be true other than the exclusion of Shepard and Zaeed.[/quote]

Shepard isn't part of this conversation for what should be obvious reasons.  Zaeed shows no signs of being a good combat leader.  None.  Zero.  Seriously.  He's a superior soldier, but he's no leader.  He doesn't have anything close to the right mentality.

[quote]Nope. It actually was for the most part irrelevant. You can give yourself airs about how patient you are to try and explain things to a ****** like me, but you're running on empty.
[/quote]

I've explained very patiently why it's relevant as have others.  You simply know what you know and to heck with the facts.

[quote]
Don't cry about rudeness and snipping content that's irrelevant. Do you have a claim to some special treatment or something?
[/quote]

Bull.  Now you are trying to change things ex post facto.  You quoted and snipped ALL the information content and then wrote in what you pleased.  That is rude.  Nothing but.


[SNIP]

[quote]And gave her plot armor and whatever. You're supremely impressed with yourself and I look forward to continuing this debate, because I'm motivated to strip you down to your jock strap and bending you over. So keep it coming honcho. I'll be here waiting.
[/quote]

You talk a big game.  To bad your rhetorical skills aren't up to your bluster.  So far, all you've shown is you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to how to judge who is and isn't a good combat leader.  The fact you gratutiously insult me rather than respond to my points is proof positive that your arguments aren't as good as you think they are.  Enough said.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

IoCaster wrote...

Just rely on the facts, you don't have to make sh!t up. 

Vido wanted to recruit Batarians and Zaeed disagreed because he considered them to be a bunch of terrorist scum. Vido got some cronies to help him take down Zaeed. It was something like "Hey guys, we can make some serious bank if we recruit some Batarians. I'll cut you a big share if you help me take out Zaeed." I don't imagine he had any trouble finding a few accomplices. I don't know where you got this idea that Vido had the full support of the troops. He got six scumbags to help him take out Zaeed. It was not a popular revolt by any stretch. Vido wasn't a leader he was a ward heeler.

I am not making anything up.  I am pulling this almost directly from the game itself.  Vido was the administrative side and Zaeed tended to stick to the field.  The point is that when the chips were down, Vido had the support of the Blue Suns and Zaeed did not (otherwise the organization would have split).  There is no indication there was a civil war or even internecine strife in the Blue Suns between Vido and Zaeed loyalists (and if Zaeed were the leader you claim there should have been).

No, it's pretty clear (and Zaeed admit it himself) what happened.  Vido pulled what amounted to a coup de tet within the Blue Suns and did so with at least the tacit consent of the officers and NCOs within the Suns. 

[This is futher emphasized if you take the renegade path and kill Vido.  Do you see the Blue Suns that are left rallying around Zaeed?  Didn't think so.]

-Polaris

Edit:  It takes more than six assuming that Zaeed as Co-Commader of the Suns had a personal staff, bat-man and a couple of body guards.   It seems pretty clear to me (although I'll admit that the game is short on details here) that Vido did have at least the tacit support of the Suns when he pulled his coup. 

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 août 2010 - 11:17 .