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[Raxxman]

IanPolaris wrote...

I am not making anything up.  I am pulling this almost directly from the game itself.  Vido was the administrative side and Zaeed tended to stick to the field.  The point is that when the chips were down, Vido had the support of the Blue Suns and Zaeed did not (otherwise the organization would have split).  There is no indication there was a civil war or even internecine strife in the Blue Suns between Vido and Zaeed loyalists (and if Zaeed were the leader you claim there should have been).

No, it's pretty clear (and Zaeed admit it himself) what happened.  Vido pulled what amounted to a coup de tet within the Blue Suns and did so with at least the tacit consent of the officers and NCOs within the Suns. 

Right, but did you ever stop to consider that this is because Zaeed was the field officer and Vido held the purse strings. And that Mercs aren't largely driven by ideoligcal motives, but instead finacial ones? Vido took out Zaeed because he saw him as a threat, which implies he was worried that Zaeed had the ability to organise a coup to oust Vido. Vido never wanted to be the front of the Blue Suns, he's a freaking coward. He only wanted a puppet to run the work while he had a cushy desk job.  This is why he gave the Zaeed role to Solem Dal'serah and went back to working in the shadows.

You wouldn't have to be a good or even great commander to get Mercs to go fight against their paychecks, you'd need to be Shepard (with a buttload of points in Paragon or Renegade).

[This is futher emphasized if you take the renegade path and kill Vido.  Do you see the Blue Suns that are left rallying around Zaeed?  Didn't think so.]

They're probably doing their best to not get shot.  Also Zaeed doesn't really express any interest in running the Merc group again, he clearly dislikes the overarching organsing, but that doesn't mean he's a bad squad commander.

I know how you see Zaeed, and simply put I, disagree, I see him as a grizzled staff sergeant. Knows how to deal with a fight, but doesn't like the admin aspect of leading a merc group. Zaeeds also smarter than I think you give him credit. Take him on the Garrus recruitment mission and he'll pump a blue sun merc for information (notice how this isn't a hostile reaction, which would be if nobody liked Zaeed as you imply) without giving anything away. He also has a good tactical aprasil of the situation, and will reliably follow your commands.

Inspite of his massive reputation, nobody mentions that lots of people die around him. When the mercs see they're going into battle with him, nobody goes 'screw that, Zaeed gets people killed!'. Infact the only person who mentions people die around Zaeed is Zaeed. As he's a merc doing insanely dangerous missions for a living, you have to expect that the mortality rate is high. Zaeed clearly has a low value on life (unlike say Thane) but that doesn't instantly make him a bad leader (Shepard can also have a low value on life with the right background/choices, and s/he's the best commander in the galaxy). He talks about death in a matter of fact manner, but I know doctors who do as well. People who are exposed to it daily have a different outlook on things.

Again, I'm not saying Zaeed is some godlike warleader, because lets face it, if he was THAT good, Cerberus would of just given him the assignment, instead of resurrecting Shepard. Shepard is the best commander in the Galaxy, Humanities finest that's the thrust of both games. All I'm saying is that there's more than enough evidence to suggest that Zaeed would be a good fireteam leader (at least as much as Garrus). Of course he's not in the game for whatever reason.

Zaeed seems to be the black sheep in the sucide mission. Everyone else it's fairly obvious who you take (tech expert is a clear choice, as is biotic bubble, and the fire team leaders imo bar mirranda who's a bit of a doubletake) with the exception of Zaeed, Zaeed slips people up, so I'm not the only one to have this point of view.

Edit:  It takes more than six assuming that Zaeed as Co-Commader of the Suns had a personal staff, bat-man and a couple of body guards.   It seems pretty clear to me (although I'll admit that the game is short on details here) that Vido did have at least the tacit support of the Suns when he pulled his coup. 

Let's face it, if Zaeed had batman on his staff Vido would of never got anywhere need pulling off a coup (yeah I am seriously yanking your chain here)

[scotchtape622]

Why doesn't Tali work as a Fire Team Leader? She led teams on Freedom's Progress and Haestrom! It doesn't matter if they all died, because she has experience!

[Raxxman]

1. Tali has a fire team leader (Prazza) on Freedoms Progress, they ran off and got themselves killed.



2. Tali has a fire team leader (Reega) on Haestrom, you have a whole conversation with him.



So Tali actually has no experience whatsoever at command, additionally her people feel the need to send people with command experience to protect her when she leaves the fleet.



Honestly, if you're going to try to come across as a smartass, you really need to get the smart part down.

[IoCaster]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

Except for the fact that you can persuade him to actually...you know...take orders. You can even persuade him to integrate into your team. So...? Are you willing to concede that all of those "pages of non-persuasive arguments" were bunk? And, oh by the way, he's one of the few squad members that actually have a character arc. You can interact with him and find out that he's aware of the threat that the Collectors and Reapers pose to humanity and the galaxy as a whole. You can even find out that he's apparently fully committed to the mission without reservation.
[/quote]

Actually you can't initiate any conversation with Zaeed at all.  Like Kasumi his conversation arc is extremely limited.  Also following orders after being pistolwhipped by your squad leader is NOT the makings of a good follower.

Everyone can see it but you.  The fact that Shepard is FORCED IN COMBAT to persuade Zaeed to follow perfectly reasonable orders BY FORCE shows just how unsuitable a combat leader Zaeed is.  Seriously I wonder what sort of leadership training you had in the service because this is about as basic as it gets.[/quote]

You go to his cabin and click. Zaeed talks about stuff. You take him on missions and he talks about stuff. The only difference is that you rarely get a dialogue wheel with him. He still commits to the mission and to follow orders. As far as leadership is concerned, I'm not holding a video game character to some real world military standard.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
This particular conceit that he's not "leadership material" is based on what exactly? You've already admitted that you're not persuaded that Miranda fits that criteria but that BioWare chose differently. How can you then assume that you're the definitive authority to choose which character is or is not suitable? Here's a hint, it's a video game and the devs make choices that are not consistent with your preconceived notions. It's weird how that works, eh?
[/quote]

I have had and been involved in leadership training.  Independantly of what Bioware has to say, I can tell in the game that Zaeed is simply not leadership material.  In fact it's not that hard.  As for Miranda, Cereberus did not exactly choose differently.   By Miranda's own admission she's not generally been involved with the 'military side' of Cerberus.  Most of Miranda's leadership involves administering technical and scientific programs....a position for which she is excellently suited (she's almost the perfect S2).

As for the Devs not going with my "preconceived notions", horsefeathers.  I am willing to discuss in a reasonable way with others about Miranda as a combat leader and am willing to aknowledge good points in her favor (neither of which you seem willing to do with me).  However, the notion that Miranda is a better leader than anyone else in the group (save Shepard) is clearly ridiculous.......yet Miranda and only Miranda can survive the fireteam leader assignment (second one) without being loyal....and thus I smell plot hook.[/quote]


Well it's a video game and Miranda apparently has to survive until the last segment because she has unique dialogue. She gets plot armor and great combat leadership skills. There's nothing real world about any of it. Why should I hold Zaeed to a real world standard and turn around and give her a pass?

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
According to you. You keep saying that and proclaiming that, like my perspective doesn't matter because you're the ultimate authority. If you bothered to take the full narrative into account you might well have a different perspective. That's the way it worked for me. Do you not understand that to my eyes the narrative failed to make the case that Zaeed is the ultimate suck at leading combat teams? Especially when I have to concede that Miranda is the better choice. What part of that narrative specific, cognitive dissonance isn't slapping you stupid?
[/quote]

Not according to me.  According to pretty much everyone that posts here except you.  I normally don't appeal to vox populari, but when everyone is saying that Zaeed is a poor combat leader but you, you really need to rethink and reassess your position.  The majority isn't always right, but if you find you are a minority of one, the odds of you being right and everyone else being wrong is....well...slim at best.

As for "your eyes", I guess you listen and hear to what you want.  I have told you and shown you multiple examples within the Narrative why Zaeed is the third or fourth best combat leader at best (and I wouldn't rate him that high).  His stories, actions on his loyalty mission, the fact he cares ultimately only for the care and feeding of Zaeed, all point to a lack of fundamental leadership skills.

At this point you are choosing to ignore the evidence the game gives you, and af that point I can't help you (no one can).[/quote]


I don't deny that the devs chose to exclude him as a team leader. I'm stating that there's enough evidence presented in the game to persuade me that he could lead a combat team on a suicide mission. None of that has anything to do with whether or not the character has the skills, traits or character to serve in a real world professional service. I'm looking at it from a video game perspective. As far as any type of consensus on the forum is concerned, so what? We don't have any idea how many people chose Zaeed to lead the 2nd team, but it's a common enough mistake.


[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
Are you seriously giving any credence to the loyalty 'flag' contrivance as a "morale, focus or concentration" barometer? I don't know how to respond to that level of credulity. You can't possibly be serious. It's a simple software check to determine whether or not a specific character survives a checkpoint or not. Sheesh!
[/quote]

What part of SHORTHAND did you miss?  Of course on a meta level, it's a software flag.  Gee, a LOT of things that make the characters and story interesting are composed of interlocking software flags.

When we PLAY THE GAME and immerse ourselves in the word, we interpret what those flags mean as they are presented by the game!  That's the freaking POINT of playing a CRPG!  The loyalty flag is a way of showing that the follower is functioning at 100% effectiveness which is shorthand for a lot of things which the game actually does explain and show.[/quote]

That's the point. Things happen in the game based on the choices that the devs made. Some of those choices don't make a whole lot of sense, but that's beyond the players control. So we have Miranda surviving in situations that kill other squad members and she gets a combat leader role instead of Zaeed. It certainly broke immersion from my perspective.


[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
Bolluxs? Morale effects? I don't even...how do...? I'm not even sure that I want to explain this to you. Eh, whatever.
[/quote]

Are you saying in real life that troop morale doesn't matter?  I hope not because that would be about the silliest thing you would have said yet.  The software flags are SHORTHAND for this!  What's not to get?[/quote]

The idea that a 'loyalty flag' translates into anything in the real world. If it were consistently applied and Miranda actually died as a non-loyal 2nd team leader, then I could see the validity of that argument.



[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
No, you're clearly taken with the idea that your perspective is the only correct and unassailable measure of the character. You don't ever refer to what influence his character arc might have or how it might be taken into account as a part of your assessment. It's all either anecdotes or loyalty mission, but ignoring the actual interaction that you have with the character throughout the bulk of the game. It's a total blind spot that you've failed to acknowledge, but keep digging.
[/quote]

Zaeed (like Kasumi) doesn't change once you have done their loyalty missions.  Seriously.  You can not interact with them in any meaningful way with them whatsoever.  All you hear are converstation arcs.  That means that YES, Zaeed's behavior on his loyalty mission is the prime evidence and it's really the only evidence you need to see.  For him to lose his temper and jeapordize not only the mission but everyone else's life as well for pride and revenge shows just how poor a leader he is.  Again, this stuff is taught to Specialists who want to become Sergeants.  It's that basic.  Zaeed fails fundamental tests of leadership not once but repeatedly and his stories indicate the same mentality.[/quote]

He speaks and I actually listen to what he has to say. Whether it's in his cabin on the ship or during whatever mission we're on. He talks about the Collector and the suicide mission. He makes a convincing case that he's committed to the task. The majority of the squad members in the game aren't soldiers and they're not presented as anything other than a group of freelancers. Zaeed fits right in with the rest of the squad and has more combat experience that most. You work with what you're given in the game and he's a logical choice to lead a team. It has nothing to do with any real world qualifications because it's a video game.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

How does any of that OCS nonsense prepare an officer to deal with a gang of freelance operatives or mercs? Your answer was a bunch of self-serving bunk with no relevance to the initial question. Let me state my question clearly enough that it can't be misunderstood. Why would any of the ragtag bunch of freelance mercs/operatives be impressed with Jacob, Garrus or Miranda, as opposed to Zaeed?
[/quote]

You clearly haven't experienced OCS then.  OCS and officer leadership in general is specifically DESIGNED to help you deal with others in highly dangerous and stressful situations often under less than ideal conditions.  That's a HUGE part of what combat officer leadership training is all about.

Garrus and Jacob clearly show such training in the game.  Zaeed does not.[/quote]

Other than Garrus leading a team of mercs on Omega and the roles they're given on the suicide mission, what events happen in the game that demonstrate this training?


[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...
Here's an analogy to chew on. Let us suppose that you get one candidate each from Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Pakistan, Indonesia and Iran. Are they supposed to be impressed with some OCS or academy drone? The odds are that an actual badass with twenty years of experience in the field would have more credibility.
[/quote]

I have seen situations just as you describe and you'd be surpised.  Naturally they'd respect a person with 20 years of experience who is a badass, but as I've said before (and as anyone that's had leadership experience knows) just being a badass isn't enough.   It may give you some initial "cred" to start with, but if you become known for being a "cowboy" who puts his own skin ahead of the lives of others, you won't last long...and it might not be from an enemy weapon.  Bullets tend not to care which uniform the target is wearing.  Funny that.[/quote]

Being a badass in the game with more combat experience than most is sufficient to the task. This is a one off. You gather these folks for a single mission. He's certainly qualified to lead a team from point A to B and meet you on the other end. It's not a particularly complicated job. There's not a lot of opportunity or incentive to go "cowboy" on such a short run.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

That would be true other than the exclusion of Shepard and Zaeed.[/quote]

Shepard isn't part of this conversation for what should be obvious reasons.  Zaeed shows no signs of being a good combat leader.  None.  Zero.  Seriously.  He's a superior soldier, but he's no leader.  He doesn't have anything close to the right mentality.[/quote]

From my perspective as the player he's an obvious choice. Garrus is an obvious choice. Jacob doesn't demonstrate any remarkable abilities or aptitude as a combat leader that I've noticed. Most of the comments from other players that I've seen refer to Jacob as a virtual nonentity.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...Nope. It actually was for the most part irrelevant. You can give yourself airs about how patient you are to try and explain things to a ****** like me, but you're running on empty.
[/quote]

I've explained very patiently why it's relevant as have others.  You simply know what you know and to heck with the facts.[/quote]

Or I examine it from the perspective that it's a video game and I don't try to shoehorn too many real world standards into the story.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

And gave her plot armor and whatever. You're supremely impressed with yourself and I look forward to continuing this debate, because I'm motivated to strip you down to your jock strap and bending you over. So keep it coming honcho. I'll be here waiting.
[/quote]

You talk a big game.  To bad your rhetorical skills aren't up to your bluster.  So far, all you've shown is you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to how to judge who is and isn't a good combat leader.  The fact you gratutiously insult me rather than respond to my points is proof positive that your arguments aren't as good as you think they are.  Enough said.

-Polaris[/quote]

I agree that this belligerence was uncalled for and I do offer an apology for that. No excuses and it was juvenile behavior. I shouldn't have gone out of my way to insult you and I intend to keep things civil from this point going forward.

As far as my ability to judge a video game character as a good combat leader is concerned, I stand by my contention that Zaeed as presented in the game is capable of leading the 2nd team.

Modifié par IoCaster, 06 août 2010 - 04:13 .

[ADLegend21]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Why doesn't Tali work as a Fire Team Leader? She led teams on Freedom's Progress and Haestrom! It doesn't matter if they all died, because she has experience!

Because she's a better tech expert.

[IoCaster]

IanPolaris wrote...

I am not making anything up.  I am pulling this almost directly from the game itself.  Vido was the administrative side and Zaeed tended to stick to the field.  The point is that when the chips were down, Vido had the support of the Blue Suns and Zaeed did not (otherwise the organization would have split).  There is no indication there was a civil war or even internecine strife in the Blue Suns between Vido and Zaeed loyalists (and if Zaeed were the leader you claim there should have been).

No, it's pretty clear (and Zaeed admit it himself) what happened.  Vido pulled what amounted to a coup de tet within the Blue Suns and did so with at least the tacit consent of the officers and NCOs within the Suns. 

[This is futher emphasized if you take the renegade path and kill Vido.  Do you see the Blue Suns that are left rallying around Zaeed?  Didn't think so.]

-Polaris

Edit:  It takes more than six assuming that Zaeed as Co-Commader of the Suns had a personal staff, bat-man and a couple of body guards.   It seems pretty clear to me (although I'll admit that the game is short on details here) that Vido did have at least the tacit support of the Suns when he pulled his coup. 

Zaeed was ambushed, held down, shot in the head and left for dead. Vido could make up whatever story he wanted after the fact. I seriously doubt that the rest of the Blue Suns shed any tears or tried to investigate. Vido then hired a bunch of Batarians and gave one of them a leadership role. Solem Dal'Serah became the titular head and public face of the Blue Suns. Vido faded into the background and ran things behind the scenes. The history of the founding of the Blue Suns has been rewritten and it's generally believed that it's a Batarian organization.

I'm not sure why you would expect any of the current day Blue Suns to "rally around Zaeed".

[SaltBot]

IoCaster wrote...

Or I examine it from the perspective that it's a video game and I don't try to shoehorn too many real world standards into the story.

Nobody's trying to shoehorn real-world standards into a game, we're all just interpreting the game through the filter that our individual lives have given us.  Admittedly none of us are Intergalactic Spec Ops Officers (not yet, anyways), but there are a number of people in this thread with the Time and Experience to be fairly good judges of who is and isn't a good leader from a 21st Century Earth perspective telling you that Zaeed really doesn't come across as a very good leader based on what they saw/heard in the game.

We can only hope that Bioware, when developing the game, is working under the (correct) assumption that we will view this larger-than-life story through the eyes of a Human on 21st Century Earth, so when they put things into the dialogue they know that the audience will react to it in a certain way based on present pre-conceived notions of...stuff.

When Tali has the bombshell dropped on her by the Admiralty Board, we're still not entirely sure how Quarian family units work, or what value their society places on blood relations, or all the ins-and-outs of subtle social interaction between Quarians in times of this, that, or the other thing.  None of us are Quarians, so nobody should profess to be an expert on how Tali should have or could have reacted to that news.  Heck, we can't even see her face to read her reaction!  But we can (almost) all empathise with her because, through the filter of 21st Century Earth Humans, we understand how crappy it would feel to find out your father was dead and the people you considered trusted confidantes were trying to strip you of your good name.

Similarly, nobody knows the ins-and-outs of the Blue Suns, or how space travel has affected the conduct of PMCs, or what radical changes to the racial zeitgeist Humanity has undergone since being exposed to the greater Galactic community, because none of us has experienced it first hand.  We can only tell you how we view things through the filter of our own lives, and a lot of people who have filters that would be considered, by your own standards of Time and Experience, to be a pretty good judge of this stuff, have said that they think it's pretty obvious Zaeed makes for a bad team leader.

If you don't give a ****, that's fine.  Just don't expect us to give a **** about your rebuttals.

[IoCaster]

SaltBot wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Or I examine it from the perspective that it's a video game and I don't try to shoehorn too many real world standards into the story.

Nobody's trying to shoehorn real-world standards into a game, we're all just interpreting the game through the filter that our individual lives have given us.  Admittedly none of us are Intergalactic Spec Ops Officers (not yet, anyways), but there are a number of people in this thread with the Time and Experience to be fairly good judges of who is and isn't a good leader from a 21st Century Earth perspective telling you that Zaeed really doesn't come across as a very good leader based on what they saw/heard in the game.

We can only hope that Bioware, when developing the game, is working under the (correct) assumption that we will view this larger-than-life story through the eyes of a Human on 21st Century Earth, so when they put things into the dialogue they know that the audience will react to it in a certain way based on present pre-conceived notions of...stuff.

When Tali has the bombshell dropped on her by the Admiralty Board, we're still not entirely sure how Quarian family units work, or what value their society places on blood relations, or all the ins-and-outs of subtle social interaction between Quarians in times of this, that, or the other thing.  None of us are Quarians, so nobody should profess to be an expert on how Tali should have or could have reacted to that news.  Heck, we can't even see her face to read her reaction!  But we can (almost) all empathise with her because, through the filter of 21st Century Earth Humans, we understand how crappy it would feel to find out your father was dead and the people you considered trusted confidantes were trying to strip you of your good name.

Similarly, nobody knows the ins-and-outs of the Blue Suns, or how space travel has affected the conduct of PMCs, or what radical changes to the racial zeitgeist Humanity has undergone since being exposed to the greater Galactic community, because none of us has experienced it first hand.  We can only tell you how we view things through the filter of our own lives, and a lot of people who have filters that would be considered, by your own standards of Time and Experience, to be a pretty good judge of this stuff, have said that they think it's pretty obvious Zaeed makes for a bad team leader.

If you don't give a ****, that's fine.  Just don't expect us to give a **** about your rebuttals.

I understand that, but I'm going by what I'm given to work with in the game. I'm looking at this from that perspective. I'm not applying any real world logic because it doesn't fit. We're talking about a game where the protagonist is miraculously brought back from death in the first fifteen minutes.

The whole story as it's written is an inconsistent mess. Miranda works as a team leader, Zaeed doesn't. Garrus is a hot head and renegade when he beats up Harkin and shoots him in the leg. He assassinates Sidonis in his revenge themed loyalty mission.

Jacob is ready to jump into the Omega-4 relay regardless of the status of the team or volunteers to do a job he's not qualified for or points a gun at his fathers head.

None of these characters are particularly stable individuals. I personally wouldn't hire any of them to do something as mundane as operate a stall at the local flea market.

On the suicide mission I take a look at my options and choose a specialist that's qualified for the task. Everyone should be on equal footing, as fas as motivation is concerned, because it's do or die. The whole concept of 'loyalty' or focus don't really make much sense in that setting. I've already stated that I chose Garrus for the 2nd team lead, but I'm arguing that choosing Zaeed isn't some incomprehensibly stupid decision.

[IanPolaris]

Iocaster,



What I and many others are patiently trying to tell you is your stnadards for leadership seem to be seriously off. There is PLENTY of evidence presented in the game that Zaeed is not a good combat leader. He does indeed "know his stuff". He will indeed "get it done", but you can not say that he makes the best use of his personelle resources (people) to do so.



Your comparison to him as a grizzled staff sergeant is actually a pretty good one with the emphasis on STAFF sergeant. In the US Army that's what badass soldiers who simply aren't leadership material tend to top out at (that or Master Sergeant). In Canada they tend to top out at Warrent Officer (which in Canada is an NCO rather than a commissioned officer rank).



You simply don't accept it; have a preconceived notion that Zaeed should be this wonderful badass combat leader and then compleain when BW disagrees with you.



This conversaion (at least with you) is over. You obviously are unable and unwilling to even consider any point of view that contradicts your own.



-Polaris

[SaltBot]

IoCaster wrote...

The whole story as it's written is an inconsistent mess.

Honestly, I'm 85% in agreement with you on that one.

IoCaster wrote...

Garrus is a hot head and renegade when he beats up Harkin and shoots him
in the leg. He assassinates Sidonis in his revenge themed loyalty
mission.

Zaeed did the same thing to a random Batarian when you first met him.  The difference, in my eyes anyways, is that Garrus had what could almost qualify as justification when he did it.  Honestly, as opposed to the revenge theme of Zaeed's loyalty mission, I got a vibe of salvation/damnation from Garrus' loyalty mission.  It's more about whether Garrus takes the shot or not, rather than who is on the receiving end.

IoCaster wrote...

None of these characters are particularly stable individuals. I
personally wouldn't hire any of them to do something as mundane as
operate a stall at the local flea market.

But wouldn't it be one heck of a badass stall?  "My ship made it through the Omega 4 Relay and all I got was this lousy t-shirt".  Tell me you wouldn't buy one of those!

IoCaster wrote...

On the suicide mission I take a look at my options and choose a specialist that's qualified for the task.

Aye, there's the rub.  Zaeed is more than qualified for it, which probably has a lot to do with people continuously making the "mistake" of selecting him to lead the fire team.  It's just that, through all of his dialogue and anecdotes and actions we get the distinct impression that he will not do a better than average job.  The fact that Zaeed himself or the Tech Expert gets killed, when by all logic it should be one or more members of his fire team that eats it when he's leading, is just a game-ism that we have to fight through and constructively criticise later so that, going back to that first point of yours that I quoted, we can keep these mistakes from happening again in the next game.

IoCaster wrote...

Everyone should be on equal footing, as far as motivation is concerned,
because it's do or die. The whole concept of 'loyalty' or focus don't
really make much sense in that setting.

You'd be surprised how much "focus" and "loyalty" and those other vague terms the characters use to describe a software flag really do affect performance, even in the direst of circumstances.  Napolean said it better than I ever could: "In war, the moral is to the physical as three is to one."

IoCaster wrote...

I'm arguing that choosing Zaeed isn't some incomprehensibly stupid decision.

I agree completely with you there.  I'm arguing that people shouldn't be so damn surprised when, in hindsight, it doesn't work out too well.

[IoCaster]

IanPolaris wrote...

Iocaster,

What I and many others are patiently trying to tell you is your stnadards for leadership seem to be seriously off. There is PLENTY of evidence presented in the game that Zaeed is not a good combat leader. He does indeed "know his stuff". He will indeed "get it done", but you can not say that he makes the best use of his personelle resources (people) to do so.

Your comparison to him as a grizzled staff sergeant is actually a pretty good one with the emphasis on STAFF sergeant. In the US Army that's what badass soldiers who simply aren't leadership material tend to top out at (that or Master Sergeant). In Canada they tend to top out at Warrent Officer (which in Canada is an NCO rather than a commissioned officer rank).

You simply don't accept it; have a preconceived notion that Zaeed should be this wonderful badass combat leader and then compleain when BW disagrees with you.

This conversaion (at least with you) is over. You obviously are unable and unwilling to even consider any point of view that contradicts your own.

-Polaris

Fair enough. I'll take this opportunity to again offer an apology for my behavior last night. It was uncalled for and I embarrassed myself by acting like an unmitigated ass. Peace.

[IanPolaris]

Raxxman wrote...

They're probably doing their best to not get shot.  Also Zaeed doesn't really express any interest in running the Merc group again, he clearly dislikes the overarching organsing, but that doesn't mean he's a bad squad commander.

Actually in a way it does.  The way it does (and I will grant this is a minor point, but a real one) is that your superior leaders never feel that a leadership challenge is too much for them.  You ask even a brand new butter bar (2LT for you non-military types or the rawest officer out there) he thinks he can "handle a company or even a battalian for a little while" and any good leader (no matter how raw) will leap at the opporunity.  Those that waffle never get promoted again (outside time of service automatic promotions) nor should they.

More to the point, this one point is not what disqualifies Zaeed.  Look at his behavior the entire loyalty mission.  He is willing to put the lives of his team in danger, and is willing to completely scotch the mission based on his own personal feelings of anger and revenge.  It takes physical force to get him to follow REASONABLE ORDERS.  If the game permitted it (this was before the suicide mission), i'd have left his sorry ass on the planet.  Failing that, he's be in the stockade for the rest of the mission.

This was bad leadership and his further "waxing nostalgic" missions confirm it.  Zaeed cares about one thing:  The care and feeding of Zaeed without regard for the rest of his team.  That may (and in his case does) make him a superlative soldier but a bad combat leader.

I know how you see Zaeed, and simply put I, disagree, I see him as a grizzled staff sergeant. Knows how to deal with a fight, but doesn't like the admin aspect of leading a merc group. Zaeeds also smarter than I think you give him credit. Take him on the Garrus recruitment mission and he'll pump a blue sun merc for information (notice how this isn't a hostile reaction, which would be if nobody liked Zaeed as you imply) without giving anything away. He also has a good tactical aprasil of the situation, and will reliably follow your commands.

Different case.  In the case you're talking about, it's a fair bet the Merc doesn't even know who Zaeed is (at least as it applies to the Blue Suns).  The point is that most people DON'T particularly like Zaeed....and within certain limits that's OK.  Having a good tactical appraisal of the sitution also doesn't make him a good combat leader.  It DOES make him an excellent and experienced soldier but that isn't in question.

Inspite of his massive reputation, nobody mentions that lots of people die around him. When the mercs see they're going into battle with him, nobody goes 'screw that, Zaeed gets people killed!'. Infact the only person who mentions people die around Zaeed is Zaeed. As he's a merc doing insanely dangerous missions for a living, you have to expect that the mortality rate is high. Zaeed clearly has a low value on life (unlike say Thane) but that doesn't instantly make him a bad leader (Shepard can also have a low value on life with the right background/choices, and s/he's the best commander in the galaxy). He talks about death in a matter of fact manner, but I know doctors who do as well. People who are exposed to it daily have a different outlook on things.

Actually Zaeed gets most of his reputation for doing jobs and thus gets much of his rep from his employers.  It's not even clear in most of his reminisces if he's even the fire team leader......  I suspect (I'll agree the game is fairly silent) that his reputation for getting his buddies killed is very well known in merc circles which is WHY he almost always works alone.  Honestly in some ways Zaeed reminds me of Wrex in ME1 and Wrex flat out admits he doesn't have the skills to be an organized army combat leader.....and doesn't want them.   

Again, I'm not saying Zaeed is some godlike warleader, because lets face it, if he was THAT good, Cerberus would of just given him the assignment, instead of resurrecting Shepard. Shepard is the best commander in the Galaxy, Humanities finest that's the thrust of both games. All I'm saying is that there's more than enough evidence to suggest that Zaeed would be a good fireteam leader (at least as much as Garrus). Of course he's not in the game for whatever reason.

There is plenty of evidence that he isn't.  The evidence you cite shows he's a badass soldier but that's different from being an effective combat leader.  People hire Zaeed generally solo to get a particular nearly impossible task done (usually hard target bounties).  This is not the background of a good combat leader nor do his jobs seem to require it.

Zaeed seems to be the black sheep in the sucide mission. Everyone else it's fairly obvious who you take (tech expert is a clear choice, as is biotic bubble, and the fire team leaders imo bar mirranda who's a bit of a doubletake) with the exception of Zaeed, Zaeed slips people up, so I'm not the only one to have this point of view.

Baring Miranda (which I've commented as well is a double-take) the other choices ARE clear:

Garrus and Jacob both have combat leadership training not only formally (via the Turian and Alliance military respectively) but also with in field small unit experience.  Garrus in particular is an obvious choice for a small unit officer.

Tali, Legion, and Kasumi have clearly defined and clearly honed "Tech" or "System Cracking" skills for different but extremely obvious and very well detailed reasons.

Samara/Morinth and Jack are the two most powerful biotics in the group (Miranda's pride notwithstanding).  This is also made painfully clear at various parts in the game.

Grunt, Zaeed, and Garrus make the best "Grunts" or "Hold the Line" soldiers and you generally need at least two of them alive and loyal to hold the door at the end.  It's also clear that they all are the best in this capacity.

Sorry, but the only real mistake I see in the whole group is Miranda and the fact that she and only she can survive the second team fire leader position even when not loyal is a dead giveaway that there is some plothood shenaningans going on here.  Again near as I can tell, even when she gets others killed, near as I can tell on the suicide mission the only way Miranda can die is if she isn't loyal and you take her with you....but in that case Shepard dies too and there is no valid ME3 save.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Iocaster,



Apology accepted. We simply aren't going to agree. Bottom line.



-Polaris

[Raxxman]

I'm sorry, but it is my understanding that Staff Sergeants are the fire team leaders, while officers are expected to get down and dirty when it comes to it, it's not always expected of them, as they have officery things to do. I'd never expect Zaeed to be a good general, but you don't need to be a good general to be able to lead men into a firefight.



In many ways, TIM is the General, Shepard the Captain, and Zaeed would be one of his Lefties.



Also, just because Zaeed doesn't immediately try and take control of the Blue Suns doesn't mean he wont try, there are several good reasons why Zaeed wouldn't immediately attempt a coup.



1. He signed a contract with TIM, he's getting a lot of money and to sod off and do his own thing is actually out of character with him. A merc who doesn't keep is word and honor his contracts is a poor merc.



2. We've already established that Solem is the defacto leader of the Blue Suns currently, and for Zaeed to make a coup he'd need to dethrone him in addition to Vido. Refer to 1. as to why he doesn't do that.



Anyhow we've all clearly reached an impasse, and it's obvious we're not going to reach a consensus. Oh how I hear the Geth smirking in the background.

[IoCaster]

[quote]SaltBot wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

The whole story as it's written is an inconsistent mess.

[/quote]

Honestly, I'm 85% in agreement with you on that one.[/quote]

*hand shake*

[quote]SaltBot wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

Garrus is a hot head and renegade when he beats up Harkin and shoots him
in the leg. He assassinates Sidonis in his revenge themed loyalty
mission.

[/quote]

Zaeed did the same thing to a random Batarian when you first met him.  The difference, in my eyes anyways, is that Garrus had what could almost qualify as justification when he did it.  Honestly, as opposed to the revenge theme of Zaeed's loyalty mission, I got a vibe of salvation/damnation from Garrus' loyalty mission.  It's more about whether Garrus takes the shot or not, rather than who is on the receiving end.[/quote]

I'm honestly not trying to equate the two, it's just that there's a history of Garrus being a hot head going back to ME. He makes a good partner for a renegade Shep and he'll even advocate keeping the Collector Base.

[quote]SaltBot wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

None of these characters are particularly stable individuals. I
personally wouldn't hire any of them to do something as mundane as
operate a stall at the local flea market.

[/quote]

But wouldn't it be one heck of a badass stall?  "My ship made it through the Omega 4 Relay and all I got was this lousy t-shirt".  Tell me you wouldn't buy one of those![/quote]

It's all a question of how long the stall or for that matter the entire flea market would remain intact. A bull in a china shop comes to mind when I think of Grunt trying to hawk t-shirts.

[quote]SaltBot wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

On the suicide mission I take a look at my options and choose a specialist that's qualified for the task.

[/quote]

Aye, there's the rub.  Zaeed is more than qualified for it, which probably has a lot to do with people continuously making the "mistake" of selecting him to lead the fire team.  It's just that, through all of his dialogue and anecdotes and actions we get the distinct impression that he will not do a better than average job.  The fact that Zaeed himself or the Tech Expert gets killed, when by all logic it should be one or more members of his fire team that eats it when he's leading, is just a game-ism that we have to fight through and constructively criticise later so that, going back to that first point of yours that I quoted, we can keep these mistakes from happening again in the next game.[/quote]

I know that I've stated it before in this thread, but I'm going to repeat it here. I understand that BioWare was using the anecdotes to drive the point that Zaeed was not a suitable choice. There's a post from one of the devs on another thread that makes that clear. The point that I'm trying to make is that there's enough other dialogue from Zaeed during the course of the game that serves to weaken the impression that he's only out for himself. I don't recall that I've ever claimed that he is the best choice in the game or that BioWare doesn't have the right to make him ineligible for the job. Only that they left enough room for doubt and I can easily understand why some people have chosen him to lead the 2nd team.

[quote]SaltBot wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

Everyone should be on equal footing, as far as motivation is concerned,
because it's do or die. The whole concept of 'loyalty' or focus don't
really make much sense in that setting.

[/quote]

You'd be surprised how much "focus" and "loyalty" and those other vague terms the characters use to describe a software flag really do affect performance, even in the direst of circumstances.  Napolean said it better than I ever could: "In war, the moral is to the physical as three is to one."[/quote]

I can understand that, but I'm mostly referring to the way it's implemented in the game. I should have made that clear. It was applied inconsistently and doesn't really make sense to me. The 2nd team gets to the rendezvous and the tech opens the door for Shep. The door jams and and the tech gets killed. Why is that death attributed to the 2nd team leader? He or she did the job and got the team to the rendezvous. Shepard is on the scene and should be held accountable for all subsequent events. If the suppressing fire wasn't sufficient then why not blame Shepard for not directing the squad at this point? I'm not even going to get started on Miranda and her impenetrable plot armor.




[quote]SaltBot wrote...

[quote]IoCaster wrote...

I'm arguing that choosing Zaeed isn't some incomprehensibly stupid decision.

[/quote]

I agree completely with you there.  I'm arguing that people shouldn't be so damn surprised when, in hindsight, it doesn't work out too well.
[/quote]

I think most people figure it out eventually. BioWare was trying to be vague and a bit misleading about some of these decisions. Miranda tries to steer you toward bad choices a few times on the mission.

[IanPolaris]

Raxxman wrote...

I'm sorry, but it is my understanding that Staff Sergeants are the fire team leaders, while officers are expected to get down and dirty when it comes to it, it's not always expected of them, as they have officery things to do. I'd never expect Zaeed to be a good general, but you don't need to be a good general to be able to lead men into a firefight.

You are confusing rank with position.  Yes fire-team leaders tend to be Sergeants or Staff-Seargents (except in special forces where the rank often can be much higher...even commissioned officer...and formal rank has little importance anyway), but the truely effective fire-team leader/combat leader in most armies GETS PROMOTED (usually to his level of incompetance or so the joke goes).

The best and youngest fire-team leaders in the regular army (at least US army) tend to be hot-shot E5s.  It's from this pool of young enlisted hot-shots that armies the world over look to offer commissioned slots to (and in the case of the Isaeli Army, it's the primary way they find officers).

However, the grizzled timer with no real leadership ability that doesn't leave the army will eventually "top out" at E-6 or E-7 which in US Army parlance is a "grizzled staff sergeant", i.e. one with over a decade of experience.  They have a LOT of experience and instant cred with their men, but often aren't particularly good leaders.  I also point that that for most people leadership is a skill that can be taught and in an organized national army, the army will take the time to TEACH such badassed soldiers enough leadership to do the job......so in an organized army older badassed soldiers are at least competant small unit leaders....mostly (and those that aren't get booted).

This goes out the airlock when talking about Merc (both in game and RL).  As a Merc you aren't required to hone or practice (or even learn) leadership and it's clear that whatever leadership skills Zaeed learned in the alliance have long since withered away.

In short, in a well led organized national army (or the equivalent), a long standing badassed veteran will have been FORCED to learn enough leadership to be competant.  (The French Foreign Legion being the exception).  If said soldier (no matter how badassed) simply can not or will not learn leadership skills, they are mustered out (again the French Foreign Legion is a noted exception).  Zaeed wouldn't make it in a well led national army, and his loyalty mission shows why in spades.  No military officer would put up with it even once no matter how "badassed" Zaeed is.

-Polaris

[Raxxman]

I guess the issue I have with this is (and I wasn't getting confused with rank/position, I was using a generalisation) is while Zaeed may not of been promoted up through the Alliance, he branched out and became part of a double act that turned a merc group into one of the most successful in the galaxy. His roll in that was team leader, and I just can't see how the Blue Suns would of got anywhere into an already competitive market (all evidence suggests that both the blood pack and eclipse were already well established) with one of their leaders (arguably the key one) being irrevocably bad at his job. Now you could argue that the Blue Suns didn't get well established until after Zaeed left, but I feel this is unlikely as they kept the name, I feel the reputation was already established.



Actually I'll tell you another thing, I see a lot of Canderous Ordo in Zaeed. He went on to become Mandalore in Kotor2.

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...
 Near as I can tell, the ONLY way that even a non-loyal MIranda can die is if she is non-loyal and accompanies you for the final encounter.  In such a case Shepard also dies .

That is wrong. Plain and simple. I always let miranda die in my playthroughs and this never happened.

[IanPolaris]

tonnactus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
 Near as I can tell, the ONLY way that even a non-loyal MIranda can die is if she is non-loyal and accompanies you for the final encounter.  In such a case Shepard also dies .

That is wrong. Plain and simple. I always let miranda die in my playthroughs and this never happened.

I am willing to learn new things.  Please explain.  It is my understanding that if either of your companions die during the final confrontation with the larva Reaper, Shepard can not make it back on the Normandy (meaning he dies) and those that aren't loyal during that confrontation die automatically (and those that are live).

To my knowledge, this is the only way that Miranda can die.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Looking through the Omega-4 guide, there is a way that Miranda can die that I hadn't thought of.  You can send a non-loyal Miranda back via escort and she dies.  OK then, I guess that her survival isn't absolutely guaranteed then, but BW makes Miranda incredibly difficult to kill in the suicide missionj.....suspiciously so in fact.  I still smell ME3 plot hook.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 août 2010 - 07:48 .

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...


His actions on his loyalty mission prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he's NOT leadership material.  One of the first things you learn in leadership is how to take orders as well as give them, and how to function as part of a team.  Zaeed fails spectacularly at both.

That was something personal. It was his mission like he said it.It was a extreme situation that wasnt comparable
with the other missions in the game where he alsways follow orders.Like to protect garrus for example.

[IanPolaris]

tonnactus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


His actions on his loyalty mission prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he's NOT leadership material.  One of the first things you learn in leadership is how to take orders as well as give them, and how to function as part of a team.  Zaeed fails spectacularly at both.

That was something personal. It was his mission like he said it.It was a extreme situation that wasnt comparable
with the other missions in the game where he alsways follow orders.Like to protect garrus for example.

All the more reason that Zaeed is EPIC FAIL as a combat leader.  A combat leader need to do the mission and keep his head ESPECIALLY when it's personal.

-Polaris

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...


All the more reason that Zaeed is EPIC FAIL as a combat leader.  A combat leader need to do the mission and keep his head ESPECIALLY when it's personal.

-Polaris

Zaeeds did the mission to liberate Edfeld-Eshland just fine.The purpose of the missions wasnt the liberation/saving of the workers and with his idea(blow up the gas) he took out a lot of blue sun mercs.So whats the problem? And yes,he was right.It was his mission.

[jklinders]

IanPolaris has thoroughly explained and articulated what I was clumsily trying to allude to in the first couple pages of this thread. i cannot disagree with anything he has written here.

[jklinders]

tonnactus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


All the more reason that Zaeed is EPIC FAIL as a combat leader.  A combat leader need to do the mission and keep his head ESPECIALLY when it's personal.

-Polaris

Zaeeds did the mission to liberate Edfeld-Eshland just fine.The purpose of the missions wasnt the liberation/saving of the workers and with his idea(blow up the gas) he took out a lot of blue sun mercs.So whats the problem? And yes,he was right.It was his mission.

The problem was he was supposed to save the plant and nearly blew the damn thing up, probably does blow it up if you go renegade and let the workers die. He completely lost the plot in favor of revenge further proving Polaris' point.

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...


I am willing to learn new things.  Please explain.  It is my understanding that if either of your companions die during the final confrontation with the larva Reaper, Shepard can not make it back on the Normandy (meaning he dies) and those that aren't loyal during that confrontation die automatically (and those that are live).

Thats wrong.Only the ones that arent loyal died.Another surviving person(worked with legion,morinth and samara) is enough.