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[nightfall2063]

I really never got the impression that Zaeed would be a good leader in any of the dialogue from the game. All of his stories made him seem like a hard-nose soldier, and his dialogue even said he survived because he looked out for himself first.



He may have been a fantastic soldier, but a great soldier does not always make a good leader. He always seemed more of a "give me a target" rather than a "that is your target" kind of character.



Now, Miranda kind of gave me the same impression. It was almost as if she was so confidant in her abilities due to her genetic tailoring, that she thought she would excel at anything, even stuff she had little experience in.



I always choose Garrus as my team leaders because the in game dialogue and quests give the impression that he is the 2nd best squad leader (behind Shepard) do to the game's narrative. I will say this is on the Paragon side of his loyalty quest, I may not have trusted him after he killed Sidonis, which is why I set him straight.



I never... ever was under the impression that anyone but Samara or Jack could hold the barrier up against the swarms. Miranda says anyone biotic could do it "in theory", but Samara is described as an incredibly powerful Biotic with powers that rival a Matriarch (which is odd, cause she technically is one!). And Jack is described as the most powerful Human biotic ever.

[Raxxman]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'll solve this entire thing with one simple statement:

In NONE of Zaeed's stories does it ever state he was the leader of the group he was with. It seems more like they were simply working together on the same job for the money. Zaeed himself never states he lead anyone. They just happen to be working together.

In the frigate story, his first suicide mission, he clearly states he was tasked to lead a 5 man team.

Using losses as a measure of poor command ability is still a bad way to determine a characters ability to lead a fireteam in the game.

Shepard himself has lost several people under his command, more so if he's got the ruthless back story. Garrus lost his whole squad in what was a few months wetwork. Jacob and Mirranda managed to lose an undetermined number of personal under their command on the Lazarus station. All of these characters have the ability to become exceptional squad leaders in the game inspite of those losses.

[smudboy]

Raxxman wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'll solve this entire thing with one simple statement:

In NONE of Zaeed's stories does it ever state he was the leader of the group he was with. It seems more like they were simply working together on the same job for the money. Zaeed himself never states he lead anyone. They just happen to be working together.

In the frigate story, his first suicide mission, he clearly states he was tasked to lead a 5 man team.

Using losses as a measure of poor command ability is still a bad way to determine a characters ability to lead a fireteam in the game.

Shepard himself has lost several people under his command, more so if he's got the ruthless back story. Garrus lost his whole squad in what was a few months wetwork. Jacob and Mirranda managed to lose an undetermined number of personal under their command on the Lazarus station. All of these characters have the ability to become exceptional squad leaders in the game inspite of those losses.

And there's the fundamental problem we run into when we start evaluating these characters to be good leaders: Tali, Miranda, Garrus and Zaeed have all lost people when in command.  There's an argument potentially for Mordin and Samara, since we don't know whom they've lead and the loss of life involved.  (Although Samara does have some stories to surround her treatment of people.  And Jacob is  a complete non-factor as far as I know.)

I would find it odd, that in a military operation, lives are not lost on both sides.  Either the opposition is completely incompetent, unprepared or vasty inferior, or the military leader who strategizes has such a superior position, intel, resources and plans in motion that the opposing force is completely annihilated without much effort put into fighting.  Considering this is a purely boots-to-ground, fighting scenario, Zaeed sounds perfect for a fire team leader.

Compare this to Shepard: is he a bad military leader because he got Ash/Kaidan killed?  Additionally, what does ones Paragon/Renegade status attribute to leadership, if Shepard is a Renegade?

While everyone points to the Verrikan story as a bad thing, look at it like this:
-Lead a team of 5, all were killed
+Survived a suicide mission
+Survived several since

The only other suicide missions I can think of would be Thane's Dantius contract, and Archangel's situation, both self-imposed and both would've ended in the other's death unless Shepard didn't show up.  Zaeed is a veteran survivor, and that's the kind of fellow you want leading men in the very least.

[Badpie]

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

This.  He's a ****** poor leader.  Gets everyone killed.  Could have gone to Sea World with a group of schoolchildren and he'd be the only one to survive.  You don't want him leading a team.  Period.  He works alone.

Same with Samara.  Though she's probably more likely to lead a group better than Zaeed, she still mostly works alone. Not a great option for team leader.

:happy:

[Yana Montana]

Badpie wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

This.  He's a ****** poor leader.  Gets everyone killed.  Could have gone to Sea World with a group of schoolchildren and he'd be the only one to survive.  You don't want him leading a team.  Period.  He works alone.

Same with Samara.  Though she's probably more likely to lead a group better than Zaeed, she still mostly works alone. Not a great option for team leader.

:happy:

True. But same thing can be said about Garrus. <_<

[LiquidGrape]

Yana Montana wrote...

Badpie wrote...

He's a ****** poor leader.  Gets everyone killed.  Could have gone to Sea World with a group of schoolchildren and he'd be the only one to survive.  You don't want him leading a team.  Period.  He works alone.

Same with Samara.  Though she's probably more likely to lead a group better than Zaeed, she still mostly works alone. Not a great option for team leader.

:happy:

True. But same thing can be said about Garrus. <_<

But it's GARRUS, brah! My homie can do no fault!

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 13 août 2010 - 01:44 .

[Badpie]

Yana Montana wrote...

Badpie wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

This.  He's a ****** poor leader.  Gets everyone killed.  Could have gone to Sea World with a group of schoolchildren and he'd be the only one to survive.  You don't want him leading a team.  Period.  He works alone.

Same with Samara.  Though she's probably more likely to lead a group better than Zaeed, she still mostly works alone. Not a great option for team leader.

:happy:

True. But same thing can be said about Garrus. <_<

Also very true.  Guh.  I'm not even bringing in my Garrus issues into this discussion.  lol 

[Yana Montana]

Badpie wrote...

Also very true.  Guh.  I'm not even bringing in my Garrus issues into this discussion.  lol 

LMAO!

I have no issues with Zaeed, I like this English bastard a lot and I was truly surprised to discover he is not available for team leading.

[LiquidGrape]

Badpie wrote...

Also very true.  Guh.  I'm not even bringing in my Garrus issues into this discussion.  lol 

I doubt he'd care anyway...too busy calibrating.

[ADLegend21]

The thing about Garrus was it wasn't his ability to lead that got his people killed, it was his Absence that got them killed Because they were unstoppable under Garrus's command for a Year and some months, not a "few months" of wetwork. Zaeed's biggest leadership task was five, Garrus's was 11 which is more than the fire teams in the suicide mission. So jsut to make sure my point was heard and won't be evade Garrus' men died because he wasn't there to lead them past the ambush, not because he's a bad leader.

[Lord Coake]

Badpie wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

This.  He's a ****** poor leader.  Gets everyone killed.  Could have gone to Sea World with a group of schoolchildren and he'd be the only one to survive.  You don't want him leading a team.  Period.  He works alone.

Same with Samara.  Though she's probably more likely to lead a group better than Zaeed, she still mostly works alone. Not a great option for team leader.

:happy:

In terms of ability, all ingame coding and mechanics aside, Samara would probably be one of the best to choose as a fireteam leader.  She's got an order of magnitude more experience than anyone else on the Normandy -Shep included- has the trust of everyone on the ship, and given her code, is devoted to getting as many people out alive as possible.  However, if sacrifices must be made, she'll do it.  She'd fight tooth and nail to make it not so, but sometimes **** happens.

Were I a Marine, I'd folow someone like Samara.

That said, as I thought about who I would really want as Shep's #2 on the Normandy and in action, I kept coming back to Ashley or Kaiden, despite them not being there.  Hell, had Ash been available, there wouldn't even have been a choice.  She just would have interrupted Shep's line of thought as said "I got team 2."

[IanPolaris]

smudboy wrote...
And there's the fundamental problem we run into when we start evaluating these characters to be good leaders: Tali, Miranda, Garrus and Zaeed have all lost people when in command.  There's an argument potentially for Mordin and Samara, since we don't know whom they've lead and the loss of life involved.  (Although Samara does have some stories to surround her treatment of people.  And Jacob is  a complete non-factor as far as I know.)

Once again you fail to see the forest for the tries.  No one is saying that a good leader never loses men.  That's silly.  However a good leader has a strong regard for his (or her) men, and Zaeed clearly does not.  Let's look crtically at the ones you mention:

Tali:  Tali may have been the "OIC" but it was Kal'Reager that was actually in charge of the Marine Fire teams.  Tali was a mission specialist and the Marine's job was "keep the specialist alive at all costs" and that is actually a reasonably common sort of mission.  At no time does Tali show any short of leadership training or ability (and note in ME2 both times you meet her, it's with a military escort with it's own leader....with troops that answer to that leader and not to Tali).  The fact Tali can't control her escort on freedom's progress is compelling evidence she is not a good leader and that should suprise no one.

As for Miranda, as everyone knows I think the game gets Miranda wrong.  Miranda shows she is a capable administrator but nothing is shown that she is an effective combat leader.  She is the perfect S2, but that does not a combat leader make.

Garrus:  Are you blind?  Garrus kept his 11 man team alive in some of the most hostile circumstances possible (Omega station) for over a YEAR.  As others have already stated, the only reason men died under his command was because Garrus was betrayed/tricked and he wasn't available to LEAD his team when they were ambushed.  Notice also how Garrus takes the loss of his team.  Garrus would take a bullet for any of his team members and that is a characteristic of a good leader.  Basically that alone with the backstory of Garrus stretching back to ME1, Garrus is the obvious leadership choice next to Shepard him(her)self.

Zaeed is simply not a good leader.  The last real leadership position he had was twenty years ago, and leadershipo is a skill and like any other skill has to be constantly practice to remain sharp.  Not only that but Zaeed shows a near perfect disregard for the rest of his squad and consequences of his actions unless it affects him personally.  If anyone thought Zaeed was a good leader, his loyalty mission should have disabused them of that notion.  Zaeed is a terrific soldier, but he is almost a textbook example of a BAD leader.

I would find it odd, that in a military operation, lives are not lost on both sides.  Either the opposition is completely incompetent, unprepared or vasty inferior, or the military leader who strategizes has such a superior position, intel, resources and plans in motion that the opposing force is completely annihilated without much effort put into fighting.  Considering this is a purely boots-to-ground, fighting scenario, Zaeed sounds perfect for a fire team leader.

We've explained this one over and over and over again *sigh*.  Zaeed shows personal disregard for the welfare of his teammates and even the mission when his own personal feelings get in the way.  This is almost textbook bad leadership.  Badass ==/== Leadership no matter what hollywood has to say.

Compare this to Shepard: is he a bad military leader because he got Ash/Kaidan killed?  Additionally, what does ones Paragon/Renegade status attribute to leadership, if Shepard is a Renegade?

The loss of life is not the issue.  It's the axis by which leadership can be evaluated.  Shep takes the death hard and does everything he can to try to save both WITHOUT losing sight of the mission.  However, when it's not possible to save both, he gets the mission done while saving as many as he can.  This IS the characteristic of a good leader.  In short, it's how the leader handles a bad situation decisively with an eye to both his men and the mission....and getting his men to trust him to do so.  In the case of Virmire Ash/Kaiden died KNOWING that Shep did his (or her) best and that their death would mean something.  That's pretty much all any good soldier can ask under those circumstances.  Zaeed throws away lives needlessly.

Big difference.

While everyone points to the Verrikan story as a bad thing, look at it like this:
-Lead a team of 5, all were killed
+Survived a suicide mission
+Survived several since

Which makes him a badass soldier which is NOT the same as a good leader.

The only other suicide missions I can think of would be Thane's Dantius contract, and Archangel's situation, both self-imposed and both would've ended in the other's death unless Shepard didn't show up.  Zaeed is a veteran survivor, and that's the kind of fellow you want leading men in the very least.

No, no, no.  A veteran survivor is not necessarily the man you want leading a fireteam especially if that veteran survival does so at the expense (often without thinking) of his men and his mission.  This really is leadership 101.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lord Coake wrote...

In terms of ability, all ingame coding and mechanics aside, Samara would probably be one of the best to choose as a fireteam leader.  She's got an order of magnitude more experience than anyone else on the Normandy -Shep included- has the trust of everyone on the ship, and given her code, is devoted to getting as many people out alive as possible.  However, if sacrifices must be made, she'll do it.  She'd fight tooth and nail to make it not so, but sometimes **** happens.

Were I a Marine, I'd folow someone like Samara.

You might think so at first blush, but it really isn't true and it's something I saw over and over again at OCS. Yes Samara has the moral compass and personal discipline to be a good leader, but she takes way too much responsibility on her own shoulders.  Instead of trusting her squaddies to cover their flanks or providing covering fire when the situation changed, she'd try to handle each new challenge personally in order to protect her team-mates.

This sounds very noble, but it isn't good leadership since no one person can possibly handle all the changes thrown at a squad all at once.  This leads to burnout and the eventual feeling in the followers that their leader doesn't trust them which is also a slow poison.

You need to care and look after you men, but you need to treat them like men and not boys.  Samara doesn't have the background to do that (since she's been a loner for centuries).  Samara is not leadership material and I suspect she'd be the first to say so.

That said, as I thought about who I would really want as Shep's #2 on the Normandy and in action, I kept coming back to Ashley or Kaiden, despite them not being there.  Hell, had Ash been available, there wouldn't even have been a choice.  She just would have interrupted Shep's line of thought as said "I got team 2."

I've never seen any evidence that either were particularly good leaders.  In fact the only person I've seen with good narrative evidence of being a really GOOD combat leader (other than Shepard) is Garrus...although Jacob at least does have military combat leadership training (being an Alliance Marine Lieutenant....equiv of our Army Captain).

-Polaris

[smudboy]

IanPolaris wrote...
Once again you fail to see the forest for the tries.  No one is saying that a good leader never loses men.  That's silly.  However a good leader has a strong regard for his (or her) men, and Zaeed clearly does not.  Let's look crtically at the ones you mention:

1) Then the number of deaths a team leader has incurred is irrelevant.
2) How do you know he does not?

Some stuff...

The point was in every one of those people in charge, people died.

Zaeed is simply not a good leader.  The last real leadership position he had was twenty years ago, and leadershipo is a skill and like any other skill has to be constantly practice to remain sharp.  Not only that but Zaeed shows a near perfect disregard for the rest of his squad and consequences of his actions unless it affects him personally.  If anyone thought Zaeed was a good leader, his loyalty mission should have disabused them of that notion.  Zaeed is a terrific soldier, but he is almost a textbook example of a BAD leader.

No, that was not his last leadership position, unless all his stories occurred more than 20 years ago.

Prove to me Zaeed shows a near perfect disregard for the rest of his squad.

We've explained this one over and over and over again *sigh*.  Zaeed shows personal disregard for the welfare of his teammates and even the mission when his own personal feelings get in the way.  This is almost textbook bad leadership.  Badass ==/== Leadership no matter what hollywood has to say.

Example(s)?

The loss of life is not the issue.  It's the axis by which leadership can be evaluated.  Shep takes the death hard and does everything he can to try to save both WITHOUT losing sight of the mission.  However, when it's not possible to save both, he gets the mission done while saving as many as he can.  This IS the characteristic of a good leader.  In short, it's how the leader handles a bad situation decisively with an eye to both his men and the mission....and getting his men to trust him to do so.  In the case of Virmire Ash/Kaiden died KNOWING that Shep did his (or her) best and that their death would mean something.  That's pretty much all any good soldier can ask under those circumstances.  Zaeed throws away lives needlessly.

Big difference.

So Zaeed surviving his first suicide mission, even though people died, without losing sight of the goal, is okay in your eyes.  Therefore, that IS the characters of Zaeed being a good leader.

Which makes him a badass soldier which is NOT the same as a good leader.

I don't see why it makes him a bad leader.  What do soldiers become after years of experience?  Leaders of other soldiers.

No, no, no.  A veteran survivor is not necessarily the man you want leading a fireteam especially if that veteran survival does so at the expense (often without thinking) of his men and his mission.  This really is leadership 101.
-Polaris

1) Why?
2) How do you know it's at the expense of his men?  Show me where Zaeed puts his men in cannon fodder roles.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Once again you fail to see the forest for the tries.  No one is saying that a good leader never loses men.  That's silly.  However a good leader has a strong regard for his (or her) men, and Zaeed clearly does not.  Let's look crtically at the ones you mention:
[/quote]
1) Then the number of deaths a team leader has incurred is irrelevant.
2) How do you know he does not?
[/quote]

1) Nope.  The deaths have to be judged by the axis of the situation.  I thought you liked complexity. No?
2) Because he shows an utter disregard for the life of his team-mates and his mission during his loyalty mission, and his stories only reinforce that.

[quote]
[quote]
Some stuff...
[/quote]
The point was in every one of those people in charge, people died.
[/quote]

Once again you quote me and then delete everything.  That is extremely rude and shows you don't have a good counter-argument.  The point is NOT the deaths per se, but how and why they happened.

[quote]
[quote]
Zaeed is simply not a good leader.  The last real leadership position he had was twenty years ago, and leadershipo is a skill and like any other skill has to be constantly practice to remain sharp.  Not only that but Zaeed shows a near perfect disregard for the rest of his squad and consequences of his actions unless it affects him personally.  If anyone thought Zaeed was a good leader, his loyalty mission should have disabused them of that notion.  Zaeed is a terrific soldier, but he is almost a textbook example of a BAD leader.
[/quote]
No, that was not his last leadership position, unless all his stories occurred more than 20 years ago.

Prove to me Zaeed shows a near perfect disregard for the rest of his squad.
[/quote]

1. At no time does Zaeed identify himself as the leader in his stories (waxing nostaligic) except for the attack on the Turian frigate...and everyone died on that matter.  Does Zaeed regret that?  NO!  He gloats about how he made out like a bandit because he got the rest of his team killed.   This dovetails with what we observe in 2)

2. Zaeed proves it himself when he acts like an out of control cowboy that won't take direction and puts not only the rest of the team in Jeapordy but his mission as well on Zorya.  Textbook bad leadership.

[quote]
[quote]
We've explained this one over and over and over again *sigh*.  Zaeed shows personal disregard for the welfare of his teammates and even the mission when his own personal feelings get in the way.  This is almost textbook bad leadership.  Badass ==/== Leadership no matter what hollywood has to say.
[/quote]
Example(s)?
[/quote]

Read the last freaking 7 pages.  We've (not just me but many others) have given example after example.  One has even copy-pasted every Zaeed text in the game and it all shows this.  You don't want to accept the facts at this point.

[quote]
[quote]
The loss of life is not the issue.  It's the axis by which leadership can be evaluated.  Shep takes the death hard and does everything he can to try to save both WITHOUT losing sight of the mission.  However, when it's not possible to save both, he gets the mission done while saving as many as he can.  This IS the characteristic of a good leader.  In short, it's how the leader handles a bad situation decisively with an eye to both his men and the mission....and getting his men to trust him to do so.  In the case of Virmire Ash/Kaiden died KNOWING that Shep did his (or her) best and that their death would mean something.  That's pretty much all any good soldier can ask under those circumstances.  Zaeed throws away lives needlessly.

Big difference.
[/quote]
So Zaeed surviving his first suicide mission, even though people died, without losing sight of the goal, is okay in your eyes.  Therefore, that IS the characters of Zaeed being a good leader.
[/quote]

That DEPENDS.  The problem with Zaeed is he makes a habit out of losing team-mates, and when you correlate this information with his despicable actions on Zorya and THEN look at the frigate, you get an entirely different impression....especially when he gloats that he made out like a bandit because the rest of his team died.  He shows no remorse and no regard for his team....just himself.  Again textbook bad leadership.

[quote]
[quote]
Which makes him a badass soldier which is NOT the same as a good leader.
[/quote]
I don't see why it makes him a bad leader.  What do soldiers become after years of experience?  Leaders of other soldiers.
[/quote]

That's not precisely true.  Most armies in today's world do have an up or out policy, but mercs do not.  It's also true (a point you continually forget) that leadership is a learnable skill and in an organized army, as you go up in rank you practice it on a daily basis and the best armies in the world also teach you leadership formally either as an officer or NCO.  In addition to that, promotion beyond the rank of E-5 in almost all modern armies is almost entirely due to leadership skills.  Good soldiers get medals.  Good leaders get promoted.  A good soldier who is NOT a good leader will get shunted aside and either discharged because of the up-or-out policies or shunted into a position where his poor leadership skills matter less.

In short, simple experience as a soldier does NOT automatically make you a good leader, and Zaeed clearly is not a good leader.

[quote]
[quote]
No, no, no.  A veteran survivor is not necessarily the man you want leading a fireteam especially if that veteran survival does so at the expense (often without thinking) of his men and his mission.  This really is leadership 101.
-Polaris[/quote]
1) Why?
2) How do you know it's at the expense of his men?  Show me where Zaeed puts his men in cannon fodder roles.
[/quote]

1) There is no answer that you are going to accept.  I an only point out the precepts of leadership as taught by virtually every officer leadership program in the world.    Survivors get medals.  Leaders get promoted.  HOW you survive may show great and untapped leadship potential (such as Audie Murphy), but it does NOT ipso facto make you a good leader.  The only thing being a survivor shows is that you are personally hard to kill.  That can be (and is in the case of Zaeed) because you throw everyone else to the wolves.  That is not leadership.

2)  We've shown you for pages and pages now how Zaeed puts himself over the regard of his teammates pretty much every time.  You are unable or unwilling to accept the evidence.

-Polaris

[didymos1120]

5 days ago:

didymos1120 wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I can't believe this debate is still going, when the reason for Zaeed not working has been mentioned many times already.

I can. Smudboy's in it, and it impinges on his larger "ME2's story sucks" thesis. This thing could go for days more.

I write things...and they happen! Fear me, lesser creatures!

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 août 2010 - 05:45 .

[nightfall2063]

smudboy wrote...

1) Then the number of deaths a team leader has incurred is irrelevant.
2) How do you know he does not?

Out of all the stories he tells, the only one I can remember him having any remorse for actions his teams had made was the one about strapping the explosives to the girl.  None of the actual men and women he had served with over the years.

If the narrative is to be believed it was Shepard that used his almost supernatural ability to inspire his men that turned over the new leaf in Zaeed.  Perhaps now he can begin to earn the trust of the rest of the team to lead him on dangerous missions.  However, you never really get the impression that the crew respects Zaeed as anything other than a hard nosed merc.

No, that was not his last leadership position, unless all his stories occurred more than 20 years ago.

Prove to me Zaeed shows a near perfect disregard for the rest of his squad.

The story about the Turian frigate.  He does not lament at the loss of the men on the mission, only that it blew up really nice.

We've explained this one over and over and over again *sigh*.  Zaeed shows personal disregard for the welfare of his teammates and even the mission when his own personal feelings get in the way.  This is almost textbook bad leadership.  Badass ==/== Leadership no matter what hollywood has to say.

Example(s)?

So Zaeed surviving his first suicide mission, even though people died, without losing sight of the goal, is okay in your eyes.  Therefore, that IS the characters of Zaeed being a good leader.

From the way they present the character of Zaeed, in the narrative it could be possible that he left the men there to get away when the bombs were going off.  We have no idea what happened on that frigate, but we do know from how he is presented it is "I watch my back, and no time to watch others."

That is the point he is trying to make.  A good leader has to put the lives of his men above his own, and when necessary put the mission above them all... but never never, waste the lives of his men, but to spend them wisely.

I don't see why it makes him a bad leader.  What do soldiers become after years of experience?  Leaders of other soldiers.

Not necessarily true.  A soldier could spent twenty years in active service and never go above the rank of Sergeant, and even that is a promotion is given due to time accrued rather than leadership experience and ability.  Some people just make better soldiers, they lack the ability to see the big picture that is required to be a leader.

Can Zaeed lead a squad?  Sure.

Its just that Garrus and Jacob are given a history of leading squads in the descriptions.  Garrus after leading a squad of vigilantes on a station the size of a large city successfully for a year, completely thwarting everyone that was trying to kill them until he was betrayed.  And Jacob was an officer in the Alliance Navy serving serving as special operations as a corsair on off the books missions.

We are never shown in the narrative that Zaeed was an effective leader.

1) Why?
2) How do you know it's at the expense of his men?  Show me where Zaeed puts his men in cannon fodder roles.

Because if he puts his live first he will cut and run to save his own skin.  That is what the loyalty quest was about.  Shepard took some of the galaxies most bad@ss soldiers and gained their loyalty where no one else ever could.

Shepard was the one who taught Zaeed that there is something to being in a team.  Up until that point he looked out for number one first.

His dialogue, the narrative.  He is usually one of the only men to survive, he shows no remorse for the loss of men in the field, he even says that he only looks out for himself because that is how he stayed alive for all of those years.

Someone on here even posted a picture of the quote as subtitles. 

That is what the loyalty mission was about.  A hard nosed, ruthless mercenary who spent 20 years pursuing a mission of vengeance, leaving a bloody swath through the Terminus Systems mostly alone being shown the errors of his ways and throwing aside that anger to fight for a better cause.

That is the narrative that shows why Shepard is "supposed" to be the greatest leader Miranda or the Illusive Man has ever seen.

He inspires.

he inspired Zaeed, up until that point he had no reason to be part of a team.

[Yana Montana]

Lord Coake wrote...

That said, as I thought about who I would really want as Shep's #2 on the Normandy and in action, I kept coming back to Ashley or Kaidan, despite them not being there.  Hell, had Ash been available, there wouldn't even have been a choice.  She just would have interrupted Shep's line of thought as said "I got team 2."

OMG, we think the same! I so want Ash back! She would have been an awesome leader. 

[Raxxman]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Once again you fail to see the forest for the tries.  No one is saying that a good leader never loses men.  That's silly.  However a good leader has a strong regard for his (or her) men, and Zaeed clearly does not.  Let's look crtically at the ones you mention:

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The issue I have here is that I don't believe you actually have an open and shut case that Zaeed clearly doesn't care for the people you put under his charge. I'm generally seeing a pattern of the evidence being a rather vague generalisation lacking any substance, such as quotes in reference to situations. Most of this comes across as subjective spin.

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Tali:  Tali may have been the "OIC" but it was Kal'Reager that was actually in charge of the Marine Fire teams.  Tali was a mission specialist and the Marine's job was "keep the specialist alive at all costs" and that is actually a reasonably common sort of mission.  At no time does Tali show any short of leadership training or ability (and note in ME2 both times you meet her, it's with a military escort with it's own leader....with troops that answer to that leader and not to Tali).  The fact Tali can't control her escort on freedom's progress is compelling evidence she is not a good leader and that should suprise no one.
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Clearly

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As for Miranda, as everyone knows I think the game gets Miranda wrong.  Miranda shows she is a capable administrator but nothing is shown that she is an effective combat leader.  She is the perfect S2, but that does not a combat leader make.
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The game labels her as fearless and a tactical genius in the suicide brief. You're basically making a judgment call based on people who you asociate with Miranda (who aren't genetically enhanced) , with zero experience of her as a combat commander, against the evidence game presents to you. Miranada is smarter than anybody you know, physically more capable than any athlete.

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Garrus:  Are you blind?  Garrus kept his 11 man team alive in some of the most hostile circumstances possible (Omega station) for over a YEAR.  As others have already stated, the only reason men died under his command was because Garrus was betrayed/tricked and he wasn't available to LEAD his team when they were ambushed.  Notice also how Garrus takes the loss of his team.  Garrus would take a bullet for any of his team members and that is a characteristic of a good leader.  Basically that alone with the backstory of Garrus stretching back to ME1, Garrus is the obvious leadership choice next to Shepard him(her)self.
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Here's where it gets a bit hazy. 1 the over a year thing, in the last playthrough I got the impression that it was less than a year and more in the region of months Garrus was on Omega have you actually got any time frame here or are you just speculating? He needed time to build up a squad and start being a vigilantee. He also needed time to get the situation really hotted up where the 3 merc groups started cooperating before it got really dangerous. And by all accounts when that happened things went south very quickly for him. Leaving your squad to die because you got dupped isn't the sign of a good leader either. Garrus himself questions his leadership descisions here, he's not perfect, and he needs Shepard to put him back on his path (again).

Nobody here has a problem with Garrus being a good squad leader as long as you sort out his personal problems.

[quote]
Zaeed is simply not a good leader.  The last real leadership position he had was twenty years ago, and leadershipo is a skill and like any other skill has to be constantly practice to remain sharp.  Not only that but Zaeed shows a near perfect disregard for the rest of his squad and consequences of his actions unless it affects him personally.  If anyone thought Zaeed was a good leader, his loyalty mission should have disabused them of that notion.  Zaeed is a terrific soldier, but he is almost a textbook example of a BAD leader.
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Why is leading suicide missions suddenly now not considered a real leadership role? I mean you've suddenly made something up in your first sentence to support your second one. Also near perfect disregard seems to actuallly be one time during extremely special circumstances.

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I would find it odd, that in a military operation, lives are not lost on both sides.  Either the opposition is completely incompetent, unprepared or vasty inferior, or the military leader who strategizes has such a superior position, intel, resources and plans in motion that the opposing force is completely annihilated without much effort put into fighting.  Considering this is a purely boots-to-ground, fighting scenario, Zaeed sounds perfect for a fire team leader.
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We've explained this one over and over and over again *sigh*.  Zaeed shows personal disregard for the welfare of his teammates and even the mission when his own personal feelings get in the way.  This is almost textbook bad leadership.  Badass ==/== Leadership no matter what hollywood has to say.
[/quote]

Nope. No matter how high you value your opinion, it's not a fact. When you're asked to provide facts to back up your opinions your silence speaks volumes.

Also, final statment? WTF? seriously, you're saying a hollywood inspired space epic can't take notes from Hollywood? Seriously?

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Compare this to Shepard: is he a bad military leader because he got Ash/Kaidan killed?  Additionally, what does ones Paragon/Renegade status attribute to leadership, if Shepard is a Renegade?
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The loss of life is not the issue.  It's the axis by which leadership can be evaluated.  Shep takes the death hard and does everything he can to try to save both WITHOUT losing sight of the mission.  However, when it's not possible to save both, he gets the mission done while saving as many as he can.  This IS the characteristic of a good leader.  In short, it's how the leader handles a bad situation decisively with an eye to both his men and the mission....and getting his men to trust him to do so.  In the case of Virmire Ash/Kaiden died KNOWING that Shep did his (or her) best and that their death would mean something.  That's pretty much all any good soldier can ask under those circumstances.  Zaeed throws away lives needlessly.

Big difference.
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So, we just need your slew of evidence to support your claim that Zaeed throws away lives needlessly.

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The only other suicide missions I can think of would be Thane's Dantius contract, and Archangel's situation, both self-imposed and both would've ended in the other's death unless Shepard didn't show up.  Zaeed is a veteran survivor, and that's the kind of fellow you want leading men in the very least.
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No, no, no.  A veteran survivor is not necessarily the man you want leading a fireteam especially if that veteran survival does so at the expense (often without thinking) of his men and his mission.  This really is leadership 101.

-Polaris[/quote]

That's an opinion again pouted like it was a fact.

I mean it's absolutely clear you've made your mind up.

[smudboy]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]smudboy wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Once again you fail to see the forest for the tries.  No one is saying that a good leader never loses men.  That's silly.  However a good leader has a strong regard for his (or her) men, and Zaeed clearly does not.  Let's look crtically at the ones you mention:
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1) Then the number of deaths a team leader has incurred is irrelevant.
2) How do you know he does not?
[/quote]

1) Nope.  The deaths have to be judged by the axis of the situation.  I thought you liked complexity. No?
2) Because he shows an utter disregard for the life of his team-mates and his mission during his loyalty mission, and his stories only reinforce that.
[/quote]
1) Miranda lost an entire station.  Garrus lost 10 men.  Zaeed lost 5.
2) Example and quote, if you please.

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1. At no time does Zaeed identify himself as the leader in his stories (waxing nostaligic) except for the attack on the Turian frigate...and everyone died on that matter.  Does Zaeed regret that?  NO!  He gloats about how he made out like a bandit because he got the rest of his team killed.   This dovetails with what we observe in 2)
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Why would he regret it?  He's a verteran telling you a story he enjoyed.

[quote]
2. Zaeed proves it himself when he acts like an out of control cowboy that won't take direction and puts not only the rest of the team in Jeapordy but his mission as well on Zorya.  Textbook bad leadership.
[/quote]
How does he put the team in jeopardy?
How does he put the mission in jeopardy?


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Read the last freaking 7 pages.  We've (not just me but many others) have given example after example.  One has even copy-pasted every Zaeed text in the game and it all shows this.  You don't want to accept the facts at this point.
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I also copy-pasted every Zaeed text (I could find) and it shows the opposite.

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So Zaeed surviving his first suicide mission, even though people died, without losing sight of the goal, is okay in your eyes.  Therefore, that IS the characters of Zaeed being a good leader.
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That DEPENDS.  The problem with Zaeed is he makes a habit out of losing team-mates, and when you correlate this information with his despicable actions on Zorya and THEN look at the frigate, you get an entirely different impression....especially when he gloats that he made out like a bandit because the rest of his team died.  He shows no remorse and no regard for his team....just himself.  Again textbook bad leadership.
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Oh so your own point you made depends, provided Zaeed is the target of it.  Right.

Why would he show remorse over a story he enjoyed telling.

"It was so sweet Shepard.  I'm going to go cry in the corner now."

He's a Renegade.  Last I recall, Renegade's don't whine, cry or feel remorse.  Renegade's do not also make bad leaders, or default Renegade Shepard would be a bad leader, unless TIM, Miranda and Jacob are making stuff up.

[quote]
In short, simple experience as a soldier does NOT automatically make you a good leader, and Zaeed clearly is not a good leader.
[/quote]
How about 2 years worth?
How about 20 years worth?
How about 1000?

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[quote]
1) Why?
2) How do you know it's at the expense of his men?  Show me where Zaeed puts his men in cannon fodder roles.
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1) There is no answer that you are going to accept.  I an only point out the precepts of leadership as taught by virtually every officer leadership program in the world.    Survivors get medals.  Leaders get promoted.  HOW you survive may show great and untapped leadship potential (such as Audie Murphy), but it does NOT ipso facto make you a good leader.  The only thing being a survivor shows is that you are personally hard to kill.  That can be (and is in the case of Zaeed) because you throw everyone else to the wolves.  That is not leadership.

2)  We've shown you for pages and pages now how Zaeed puts himself over the regard of his teammates pretty much every time.  You are unable or unwilling to accept the evidence.

-Polaris[/quote]
1) Show me where Zaeed throws someone to the wolves.
2) Show me an example where Zaeed puts himself over the regard of his teammates.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Smud, during Zaeed's loyalty mission, when he blows up the gas pipe just to get a shot at killing Vido, isn't that unnecessarily risking the lives of Shepard and the third squadmate? I don't think any good leader would do something like that. It seems to me as if Zaeed didn't care about the team; he only cared about making sure Vido doesn't get away.

[smudboy]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, during Zaeed's loyalty mission, when he blows up the gas pipe just to get a shot at killing Vido, isn't that unnecessarily risking the lives of Shepard and the third squadmate? I don't think any good leader would do something like that. It seems to me as if Zaeed didn't care about the team; he only cared about making sure Vido doesn't get away.

As you wrote, he bIows the gas pipe.  I don't believe he was trying to get a shot at killing Vido.

How is this action risking the lives of Shepard and co?  If that's the case, wouldn't Shepard have been risking the lives of everyone in the squad in Mordin's mission, when they do the exact same thing?

Vido: "Zaeed Massani.  You finally tracked me down."
Zaeed: "Vido..."  Zaeed grabs his assault rifle and holds it on his back.
Vido: "Don't be stupid Zaeed.  I have a whole company of bloodthirsty bastards behind me..."
Zaeed looks around to the circular pipe valve.
Vido: "...ready to kill or be killed on my command.  Actually take your shot.  Give my men a reason to put you down like the mad dog you are.  Again."
Zaeed pulls out his assault rifle, running to the pipe valve, shooting the pipe above Vido's head.  Gas is heard hissing out from the pipe.
Vido: "What was that?  Gone nearsighted, old friend?"
Zaeed: "Burn you son of a ****!"
Zaeed fires again at the same location, as the hissing of gas is heard.  A spark of flame starts up, and then the pipe explodes, causing Vido and his men to scatter.  Sheprad and co run to a nearby chest high wall and take cover.  Zaeed smirks and looks toward Shepard.
Vido: "You just signed your death warrant, Massani!"
Vido's previously scattered men come back and start opening fire on Zaeed, but he's well hidden behind the pipe he ran to.  Zaeed starts banging on the circular pipe with the end of his assault rifle.  This causes the vale it's connected to do lose pressure, as gusts of gas shoot out from it.
Shepard: "What the hell are you doing?"
And even greater explosion erupts from the where the previous one was, as one of Vido's men gets blasted off the platform he was on.
Zaeed: "Opening the gate."
...
*Shepard: Warn me next time.
Shepard: "Next time you're going to blow something up, I want to know about it first."
Zaeed: "Vido was confident.  Had a lot of men.  Now he's lost the home field advantage.  If we keep up the pressure, no way he's getting out of here alive.
Shepard: "You don't make a move unless I know about it first."
Zaeed: "This is MY mission.  Remember that.  I came here to kill Vido Santiago.  You want help on your mission, you better make damn sure that man dies today."
*Shepard: If that's what you need.
Shepard: "You want him dead?  Then he dies."
Zaeed: "I don't care what else happens.  As long as Vido swallows a bullet."
...
*Shepard: That was unnecessary.
Shepard: "We don't sacrifice lives for the mission. There's always a better way."
Zaeed: "Like what?  Wandering around in the jungle for hours, looking for another way in?  You want to waste time out here, go ahead. I'm going to kill Vido."
etc.

In the "opening the gate" scenario and the Paragaon and Renegade style responses, I don't see where he's endangering Shepard and the other squadmate.  Renegade Shepard doesn't seem to care about the innocents along the way, and in no way are the slaves part of "liberating the refinery." I'd argue Zaeed's reasoning is sound: he has a strategy to get passed the gate of men, and he's already throught of how to stop Vido, obviously in a very destructive way.  That sounds like efficient leadership to me.

[IoCaster]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, during Zaeed's loyalty mission, when he blows up the gas pipe just to get a shot at killing Vido, isn't that unnecessarily risking the lives of Shepard and the third squadmate? I don't think any good leader would do something like that. It seems to me as if Zaeed didn't care about the team; he only cared about making sure Vido doesn't get away.

Sure you could look at it that way. Another way to look at it is that Zaeed was in command of his mission. He recognized that his squad was outnumbered by Vido and his thugs. Vido also had the tactical advantage on an elevated platform. Zaeed sized up the situation, realized that his squad was in an untenable position and took the initiative. Vido was wounded and his thugs were killed or driven off. Zaeed essentially saved the squad and created an opening to advance into the refinery. When Shep questions him about it he explains this and the mission continues.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Raxxman wrote...

The issue I have here is that I don't believe you actually have an open and shut case that Zaeed clearly doesn't care for the people you put under his charge. I'm generally seeing a pattern of the evidence being a rather vague generalisation lacking any substance, such as quotes in reference to situations. Most of this comes across as subjective spin.
[/quote]

Only to you and Smudboy.  To pretty much everyone else including the Bioware Devs who have commented on Zaeed, it's crystal clear.  Zaeed DOESN'T care about his team-mates and all his stories do involve team-mates dying.  It's a disturbing pattern that his loyalty mission makes crystal clear.

Only you think it's spin (and maybe Smudboy).

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As for Miranda, as everyone knows I think the game gets Miranda wrong.  Miranda shows she is a capable administrator but nothing is shown that she is an effective combat leader.  She is the perfect S2, but that does not a combat leader make.
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The game labels her as fearless and a tactical genius in the suicide brief. You're basically making a judgment call based on people who you asociate with Miranda (who aren't genetically enhanced) , with zero experience of her as a combat commander, against the evidence game presents to you. Miranada is smarter than anybody you know, physically more capable than any athlete.
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To paraphrase Gen Clauswitz, just because you wear the Lampassen as a Staff Officer and can plan brilliantly does NOT make you a good leader.  I don't care how smart Miranda is.  Being smart and genetically enahanced is not enough.  Being highly intelligence helps you learn leadership skills more quickly (and it's one important reason why modern armies select for intelligence in officer candidates), but being intelligent is not a sign of a good leader.  That should be obvious.  Look at Mordin and Tali who are probably smarter (or at least as smart) as Miranda and obviously don't make good leaders.  Again as I've said before, I smell plot device with Miranda.

I have professional experience with good and bad leaders.  I do have a basis to judge.

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Garrus:  Are you blind?  Garrus kept his 11 man team alive in some of the most hostile circumstances possible (Omega station) for over a YEAR.  As others have already stated, the only reason men died under his command was because Garrus was betrayed/tricked and he wasn't available to LEAD his team when they were ambushed.  Notice also how Garrus takes the loss of his team.  Garrus would take a bullet for any of his team members and that is a characteristic of a good leader.  Basically that alone with the backstory of Garrus stretching back to ME1, Garrus is the obvious leadership choice next to Shepard him(her)self.
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Here's where it gets a bit hazy. 1 the over a year thing, in the last playthrough I got the impression that it was less than a year and more in the region of months Garrus was on Omega have you actually got any time frame here or are you just speculating? He needed time to build up a squad and start being a vigilantee. He also needed time to get the situation really hotted up where the 3 merc groups started cooperating before it got really dangerous. And by all accounts when that happened things went south very quickly for him. Leaving your squad to die because you got dupped isn't the sign of a good leader either. Garrus himself questions his leadership descisions here, he's not perfect, and he needs Shepard to put him back on his path (again).
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Garrus did NOT leave his squad to die.  He was betrayed and tricked and that's something even the best leaders can fall prey to.  As for questioning his leadership skills, good leaders frequently do (and one characteristic of a bad leader is they never question their leadership ability even in the face of evidence of bad leadership).

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Nobody here has a problem with Garrus being a good squad leader as long as you sort out his personal problems.
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You clearly do or you would have ceded the point.

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Zaeed is simply not a good leader.  The last real leadership position he had was twenty years ago, and leadershipo is a skill and like any other skill has to be constantly practice to remain sharp.  Not only that but Zaeed shows a near perfect disregard for the rest of his squad and consequences of his actions unless it affects him personally.  If anyone thought Zaeed was a good leader, his loyalty mission should have disabused them of that notion.  Zaeed is a terrific soldier, but he is almost a textbook example of a BAD leader.
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Why is leading suicide missions suddenly now not considered a real leadership role? I mean you've suddenly made something up in your first sentence to support your second one. Also near perfect disregard seems to actuallly be one time during extremely special circumstances.
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OK, I will stand corrected on the Turian military frigate, but listen to Zaeed.  Other than that mission, Zaeed never claims to be the leader.  Also in that one mission where he is the clear leader not only does his whole squad die, but he shows NO REGARD for their lives other than the fact he got a bigger share.

The facts are against you.


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I would find it odd, that in a military operation, lives are not lost on both sides.  Either the opposition is completely incompetent, unprepared or vasty inferior, or the military leader who strategizes has such a superior position, intel, resources and plans in motion that the opposing force is completely annihilated without much effort put into fighting.  Considering this is a purely boots-to-ground, fighting scenario, Zaeed sounds perfect for a fire team leader.
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We've explained this one over and over and over again *sigh*.  Zaeed shows personal disregard for the welfare of his teammates and even the mission when his own personal feelings get in the way.  This is almost textbook bad leadership.  Badass ==/== Leadership no matter what hollywood has to say.
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Nope. No matter how high you value your opinion, it's not a fact. When you're asked to provide facts to back up your opinions your silence speaks volumes.
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Go take and pass OCS, SR NCO Academy, Four Years in a military academy, or even the last two years of ROTC.  What does and does not make a good combat leader is generally known, and being a badass is not it.  You simply don't want to listen to the facts.  That's your problem, not mine.

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Also, final statment? WTF? seriously, you're saying a hollywood inspired space epic can't take notes from Hollywood? Seriously?
[/quote]

I am saying that just because it's holywood inspired space epic does NOT mean that Bioware has to use holywood style of leadership and clearly they do not.  The designers of the damn game have come out and pretty much said everything I have.  At this point I am talking to a concrete wall.


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The loss of life is not the issue.  It's the axis by which leadership can be evaluated.  Shep takes the death hard and does everything he can to try to save both WITHOUT losing sight of the mission.  However, when it's not possible to save both, he gets the mission done while saving as many as he can.  This IS the characteristic of a good leader.  In short, it's how the leader handles a bad situation decisively with an eye to both his men and the mission....and getting his men to trust him to do so.  In the case of Virmire Ash/Kaiden died KNOWING that Shep did his (or her) best and that their death would mean something.  That's pretty much all any good soldier can ask under those circumstances.  Zaeed throws away lives needlessly.

Big difference.
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So, we just need your slew of evidence to support your claim that Zaeed throws away lives needlessly.
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Hardly.  It's WHY the lives had to be lost and under what circumstance that makes the difference.  In the case of Shepard, he did everything in his power to take care of his team AND fulfill the mission.  When it became clear that someone had to die in order to fulfill the mission, he made the tough call and did so without hesitation.  He STILL agonized over it afterword and wished there had been another way.  The point is (and the person you sacrifice aknowledges it) when Shepard had to sacrifice a life, he did so when there was no other way and did so to accomplish the mission.  It was a life well spent which ultimately when things go bad is the best a soldier can ask for.

Zaeed clearly wastes lives and doesn't care.  Not the sign of a good leader because it doesn't inspire loyalty in his troops (and fear only goes so far......in the heat of combat it's amazing how many bad leader that use fear wind up catching friendly fire).


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The only other suicide missions I can think of would be Thane's Dantius contract, and Archangel's situation, both self-imposed and both would've ended in the other's death unless Shepard didn't show up.  Zaeed is a veteran survivor, and that's the kind of fellow you want leading men in the very least.
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No, no, no.  A veteran survivor is not necessarily the man you want leading a fireteam especially if that veteran survival does so at the expense (often without thinking) of his men and his mission.  This really is leadership 101.

-Polaris[/quote]

That's an opinion again pouted like it was a fact.

I mean it's absolutely clear you've made your mind up.

[/quote]

You have as well.  However, I have military professional standard of leadership backing what I am saying about leadership.  You do not.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 août 2010 - 08:16 .

[IanPolaris]

IoCaster wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, during Zaeed's loyalty mission, when he blows up the gas pipe just to get a shot at killing Vido, isn't that unnecessarily risking the lives of Shepard and the third squadmate? I don't think any good leader would do something like that. It seems to me as if Zaeed didn't care about the team; he only cared about making sure Vido doesn't get away.

Sure you could look at it that way. Another way to look at it is that Zaeed was in command of his mission. He recognized that his squad was outnumbered by Vido and his thugs. Vido also had the tactical advantage on an elevated platform. Zaeed sized up the situation, realized that his squad was in an untenable position and took the initiative. Vido was wounded and his thugs were killed or driven off. Zaeed essentially saved the squad and created an opening to advance into the refinery. When Shep questions him about it he explains this and the mission continues.

Zaeed was never in charge of the mission.  He only takes command when if Shepard goes renegade.  The mission was clear:  Save the refinery.  Zaeed by his actions endangered the lives of his teammates (blowing up the gate in a refinery!) and doesn't show any regard for his mission as well.

It may be Zaeed's mission,. but Shepard is in charge.

-Polaris