440 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
The same mercenary who went on numerous missions where he has a big track record of men dying under his command almost every single time? I'm pretty sure the Blue Suns didn't sign up for the company just to walk into death.

Well Shepard certainly doesn't have any problems slaughtering Blue Suns left right and center.  Hmm, maybe if Zaeed was there to teach them...

Did Batman have any military training experience? Does he know how to command infantry, armor, and air assets perfectly? Can Batman end military wars? Last time I checked, he was mostly smart in applications of physical sciences and a decent detective. As far as commanding people goes, he only commanded Robin, Nightwing, and to a lesser extent Batgirl while only partnering up with the rest of the DC universe when the situation calls for it.

...or the entire JLA.

Last time I checked, Shepard did not say "Follow my orders and you get to command a squad." All he said is "Work as part of a team" and nothing else. Is critical thinking really that hard?

What's wrong with working as part of a team if you're the leader, and you have experience on how to be a leader?

Who would want to listen to someone with a track history of getting his people killed?

So because Garrus was betrayed, he suddenly sucks at being a genius infiltrator?
.

A survivor who only escaped by blind luck or was well hidden elsewhere while his minions took the majority of the slugs.

And here we begin the speculation.  Regardless, he's come from those missions alive.  He knows a hell of a lot more about
staying alive, and where to position squadmates in tactical maneuvers than Jacob, Garrus and Miranda combined.

Again, if what you wrote was true, then everyone on the team would've been killed except Zaeed.  Instead?  Zaeed's the only one that dies.  Illogical.

[ADLegend21]

smudboy wrote...

jklinders wrote...
Combat experience=/= leadership experience. This goes goes double for Samara who has spent more than half her life as a recluse. Zaeed was betrayed by his own organization and while he has surviuved his missions the people around him do not. Bioware did not "screw up" the suicide mission. They made their own decisions about who would do well at what. The game would 3 years from release if all the variables you wanted to be shown were accounted for.

If you've had combat experience for next to 1000 years, and you're asked to lead a team in a combat experience, then yes, combat experience is easily applicable to leadership experience.  Samara is very patient and considerate of others, and brutally efficient at other times.  Considering she also has 5000 sutras on how to handle every situation in the galaxy, lethally, I think she can handle keeping herself, and others, alive.

And Garrus was betrayed by his own organization.

BioWare did screw up the suicide mission royally.

Um?  No it wouldn't.  All it would need is clearer explanations as to why characters work, and actually making those characters work, through simple flags (Zaeed and Samara as leaders, Jacob as a biotic bubble, Garrus as a tech expert.)

Garrus was betrayed bya  weak link, Zaeed was betrayed by his entire oragnization the rest of garrus' team fought with garrus but died fighting, Zaeed's just shot him and moved on.

[jklinders]

smudboy wrote...

jklinders wrote...
Oh get over it, seriously. Someone whose social skills do not amount to a sack of snot like Samara would likely see the solution to a combat problem but fail to communicate it to her squad. It takes lots more than being a ggod fighter to be a good leader.

For someone with no social skills, Samara certainly has a lot to say to Shepard when they talk.  Definitely more than Jacob and Garrus...probably combined.

Garrus being betrayed by one of his team is only applicable to his leadership if it happens again, therefore your problem with him as fire team leader is irrelevent unless you think there should have been a betrayal in the game.

Right.  Same argument with Zaeed then.

Garrus is not a "tech expert". He is a sniper who can trigger the odd overload. Likewise, Jacob, Miranda are not Biotic specialists.

I seem to recall him having some rather good tech skills in ME1: Decryption, Damping and Electronics.

His role?  Infiltrator.  As in, infiltrating enemy bases.

You are crying in part because all the failures of the specialists are not custom made for each character, that is more code, more triggers more variables. For more on what that causes please cheack out Alpha Protocol.

It's not more code.  It's ONE FLAG.

In a closed isolated setting. Not in combat Samara seems to talk pretty good. Being chatty does not equal combat communication.

Sure but Zaeed never mentioned being betrayed on any of those missions where all his squaddies died. So Garrus has one up on him there. According to the narrative we are given

See my above post, Garrus can do it, just not fast enough because he is not a specialist. Where do you want your best sniper, crawling through a vent or shooting bad guys? This is a no brainer.

It is more code, extra cutscene material to make and more money and time. Unlike us in these forums where we all like to complain and nitpick things Bioware is on a budget for both money and time.

It's nice having different opinions isn't it? You are not persuading me and I cannot persuade you. I am offering to agree to disagree with you.

[Lunatic LK47]

smudboy wrote...

Well Shepard certainly doesn't have any problems slaughtering Blue Suns left right and center.  Hmm, maybe if Zaeed was there to teach them...

Your point?

...or the entire JLA.

Can you name an episode or comic that showed Batman commanding the entire JLA? 

What's wrong with working as part of a team if you're the leader, and you have experience on how to be a leader?

Got minions killed. Who would want to listen to Zaeed despite him being a survivor?

So because Garrus was betrayed, he suddenly sucks at being a genius infiltrator?

If you're talking about Garrus dying because of no loyalty, he's ****ing distracted despite his best effort. A soldier with 80% commitment is more likely to die rather than someone with 100% commitment to the mission. It's as stupid as expecting a traumatized veteran soldier to get over losing his friend in five minutes.
.

And here we begin the speculation.  Regardless, he's come from those missions alive.  He knows a hell of a lot more about staying alive, and where to position squadmates in tactical maneuvers than Jacob, Garrus and Miranda combined.

Again, if what you wrote was true, then everyone on the team would've been killed except Zaeed.  Instead?  Zaeed's the only one that dies.  Illogical.

Zaeed's second team more or less left him hanging because they wanted to save their own asses and know better than him? That thought ever crossed your mind? BTW, Garrus had military experience before C-Sec. Miranda's leadership skills, I'll agree on the questionable aspects of it, and I never knew much about Jacob's leadership skills even with the crappy I-Phone game.

[smudboy]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
Your point?

That they'd be better trained?

Can you name an episode or comic that showed Batman commanding the entire JLA? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman
Search "lead".  Seems he founded and lead more than just the JLA.  (I'm not a comic book/Batman guy, but this is really off topic.)

Got minions killed. Who would want to listen to Zaeed despite him being a survivor?

Because he knows how to survive and succeed?

People seem to have this misunderstanding of what leadership is, or how to command troops properly.  I'm sure a military fellow can put more insight into things, if all you're referring to is "giving commands."

Let me put it in a way that I understand:

In psych group dynamics, one on one communication is exactly the same as group communication.  You're still dealing with one person at a time, in regards to giving orders, even if within those orders you form sub-groups.

If you're talking about Garrus dying because of no loyalty, he's ****ing distracted despite his best effort. A soldier with 80% commitment is more likely to die rather than someone with 100% commitment to the mission. It's as stupid as expecting a traumatized veteran soldier to get over losing his friend in five minutes.

I'm not sure what or how we're talking about loyalty relates here.
.

Zaeed's second team more or less left him hanging because they wanted to save their own asses and know better than him? That thought ever crossed your mind? BTW, Garrus had military experience before C-Sec. Miranda's leadership skills, I'll agree on the questionable aspects of it, and I never knew much about Jacob's leadership skills even with the crappy I-Phone game.

We don't know what happened in that 2nd team involvement.  The fact that anyone who's not the "game defined" leader gets the same fate is farcical.

Garrus' experience still can't compare to Zaeed's experience.

[XBeth]

Interesting conversation. I'll add a few points the way I see them.

As for people dying in Zaeed's missions. Remember Torfan for Ruthless Shepard? Yet, people still follow him/her. And we don't know who the people that died around Zaeed were, the might not have been trained enough. Again, he only spoke about some of his missions, probably the toughest ones.. I don't think he would bloat about how he completed a mission without breaking a sweat.

Besides, Zaeed probably knows you can't really trust fellow mercs, because they can easily turn on you, so I think it's more everyone for himself in the end (more money for the survivors if they don't have to share them with others). But, the team on Normandy aren't mercenaries. Zaeed'd know he has to keep them alive and that it would be in no way beneficial for him if any of them died. So, yeah, he might be an ass sometimes, and mainly looking out for himself (although there have been exceptions, apparently), but he gets the job done. (I think Joker was right when he said Zaeed is like Shepard.. a Renegade one, yeah, but I can see the similarities)

About the betrayal. Mercs betrayed him for more credits. I would compare them to pirates. They don't care how many people are killed if they get the money - the more the better. And I dare say Zaeed is kind of an exception. So you can't really compare to Garrus' betrayal, his team stuck with him because they were fighting for a good thing, they were probably brave and dedicated people, not mercs.

In conclusion, I think Zaeed would make a great team leader. But maybe BioWare didn't choose him because they though the squad still wouldn't trust him? I don't know, but what about Renegade Shepard then?

Modifié par XBeth, 04 août 2010 - 12:42 .

[ADLegend21]

the problem with Zaeed not being a leader is that somehow men always die on his watch. the blue suns turned on him, he lost some guys in that bar fight, etc. Garrus had his team messing with mercs and blowing up there stuff for years and only los them because Sidonis sold them out and revealed their secrets, that's why Garrus is a vaild team leader, because he knows how to keep people alive, instead of just fight.

[Bluko]

TruYuri wrote...

Bluko wrote...
I will remind them that Garrus got his entire vigilante group killed

And that's where you'd be wrong. They were betrayed, the betrayal led to their deaths.

Yeah, but they still got killed. And they got killed because he pissed off the Mercs to begin with. Was it entirely his fault? No. But they still ended up dying under his leadership. Though to be frank Sole Survivor Shepard isn't really any better with what happened on Akuze and neither is Ruthless Shepard. I'm just saying it seems odd that Zaeed wouldn't know how to lead a squad properly in combat.

I love Garrus and I honestly think of him as my true XO, but I'd be afraid to see him run even a pickle stand. He just tends to fail a lot in life is all I'm saying. He's a good follower, but not exactly a great leader ya know?

[krasnoarmeets]

Probably because he's generally only concerned for his own safety being a bounty hunter, therefore when he's put in charge of a group, he's distracted.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Probably because he's generally only concerned for his own safety being a bounty hunter, therefore when he's put in charge of a group, he's distracted.

This is true.

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...


Uh, no one in their right mind would trust someone who has a track history of team members dying under his command. Why did Captain Herbert Sobel get removed from tactical command during World War II despite having a semi-harsh military regimen? He was just not fit for the real battles. Zaeed is more or less the same.

I wonder why people think the Butcher of Torfan is a good leader. Makes no sense.

Despite the losses, the Butcher of Torfan apparently got the job done. I would say there are both avoidable and unavoidable losses.

[cachx]

There is evidence on in-game files that Zaeed was meant to be a "leader" character at some point, but that idea was discarded later on. (if I had to guess, it probably was to avoid the over-complication of the "who lives and dies" algorithm for the suicide mission).

[Bom_diggidy_Wrex]

Because He kept getting distracted by miranda's snarky comments!



Zaeeed: cover your flank jacob!

Miranda:Are you really going to listen to a man who lost half his brain to a bullet?



(jacob gets shot down)



Zaeed: somebody go get help him up damnit!

Miranda: Oh what was plan was plan B leave him to die? Amatuer!

Zaeed: listen here you! (zaeed gets a rocket to the face)

Miranda:well done shepard! I told you i should have lead team B!

[Throw_this_away]

Shwiggliness wrote...

He had a high ranking position in the Blue Suns, shouldn't he know a thing or two about leading?

trust.  Or a lack of it.  He is a merc.  He is a bad leader not because lack of skill/experience... but because the rest of the squad would be less likley to trust him. 

One could argue the same for Miranda... but we can also assume that the squad has bought into the Cerberus idea by that point. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 04 août 2010 - 04:46 .

[SaltBot]

As to the point about it making no sense that Zaeed as a fire-team leader gets either himself or the tech expert killed, it can only be accepted as a game-ism where BW is clearly trying to set up a choice-consequence scenario while still restricted to keeping things formulaic enough to work in dozens of variations of playthroughs.  Whether your suspension of disbelief holds up under this pressure or not is a personal issue.

As to the point of why Zaeed (and to a lesser extent, Samara) is not a good fire team leader, I will make the same argument that I made in a similar thread months ago...

I don't see anyone upset that Thane is no good as a fire team leader.  He has many of the qualities you would want in a team leader, doesn't he?  He's eloquent, extremely skilled in combat, cool under pressure and just a little bit of mysterious-charismatic.  He clearly knows how to think outside the box (or inside the vent, depending on your point of view), and it's shown through his flashbacks and dialogue that he has a heart and is not just a cold-blooded killer, giving him a bit of that idealism, that certain something that makes people want to follow.  So why does everyone seem to agree that he's no good as a fire team leader?

Throughout the game, in cutscenes and dialogue and the way people talk about him and react to him, it is made clear to we the player that Thane does not play well with others.  Zaeed (and Samara) are presented in much the same way: they work better on their own, and have spent many years (or centuries) looking out for #1 in a single-minded quest to bring a single person to task in the ways that worked best for them and them alone.  It's not necessarily about skill or experience, but the conditions under which the skill and experience is gained.  Miranda and Jacob were working in teams before they even met each other, and have been working in nothing but team settings since.  Garrus, up until the unfortunate and recent betrayal by Sidonis, was never caught working outside of a team (C-Sec, then Shepard, then back to C-Sec, then his vigilante crew).  All three were working in teams to achieve objectives in the pursuit of higher goals.  Zaeed and Samara, on the other hand, have been flying solo for the better part of half their respective lives seeking one, and only one, elusive target.

That is not to say that Zaeed and Samara (and Thane) are incapable of working in a team setting when required, but some people lead a team, while some people just show up and bring their A-game in support of the team.

[DrAbysmal]

The funny thing with Zaeed as squad leader is that his radio chatter indicates his team does well. They arrive at the door ahead of schedule and don't get pinned down. The person who dies wasn't even part of his squad, it's the tech specialist's own inability to get the door closed that seals their fate.

[Jigero]

smudboy wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

To me that's a reason for being great at being a fire team leader.  His own Suicide Mission he came out alive.  As with every other mission.

It's arguable, but no one, save from Samara, has more experience than Zaeed.

Zaeed gets a characters arc, if solved Paragon style, teaches him to be part of a team.

And how him being the fire team leader, gets the tech expert killed = completely illogical.

If he's chosen for the 2nd team leader, he dies?  Even though he's Mr. Survival?  Illogical.

Simple answer: BioWare botched the Suicide Mission.  (Same argument for Samara, Garrus as tech expert, Jacob as biotic bubble, etc.)

So if you where a Carpenter your entire life, then one day some one told you to be a electrition, that suddenly makes you a great electrition, right?

Also Samara has 100s of years of experiance not being a fire team leader, and some one who trusts no one. Neither does she command very much authority beyond Justicar fear tactics.

and he got the tech expert killed because he could keep up proper supressing fire.

[CosmicTourist]

I actually like that Zaeed and Samara die as fire team leader. It allows Shep to make logical choices and still have deaths on the mission.

So while I agree Zaeed should have been effective, I like that he dies because it lets me have squad deaths while not making stupid choices (like Jacob as biotic shield), and consequently, lets me have a more exciting and compelling story. The same holds for Garrus and Thane in the vents.

Modifié par CosmicTourist, 04 août 2010 - 07:34 .

[NuclearBuddha]

[lovgreno]

Well basicaly Zaeed is a maniac that get people killed. His reputation makes the others distrust him.

[Massadonious1]

While were at it, lets make Jack and Grunt fire team leaders. One's a pyschopath, the other is a walking tank. They can just scare people into following their combat commands.



You can make cases for pretty much everyone that they could lead, or that people like Mordin and Jacob (because he volunteers for it) could be tech experts, and Miranda (because she pretty much volunteers for it) could be the biotic shield. But, if BioWare followed every.....logical....inference, the entire mechanic would be pretty much moot. Why even bother doing their loyatly missions at that point.

[MonkeyKaboom]

You all are taking this way too seriously. He's not a good leader because....he was DLC content and they were lazy in programming.....



Simplest solution is usually the best