440 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonesey2k]

DrAbysmal wrote...

The funny thing with Zaeed as squad leader is that his radio chatter indicates his team does well. They arrive at the door ahead of schedule and don't get pinned down. The person who dies wasn't even part of his squad, it's the tech specialist's own inability to get the door closed that seals their fate.

Quoted for the truth.

[XBeth]

Zaeed is awesome enough that he can simultaneously infiltrate through the vents, lead both fireteams, escort the crew back to the Normandy, hold the line alone while simultaneously blowing up and saving the collector base, and survive while not getting anyone killed

That's just when he's not loyal.

If you complete a game of Mass Effect 2 with Zaeed loyal, you will be unable to import your save into Mass Effect 3 because the reapers have already lost.

[smudboy]

Jigero wrote...
So if you where a Carpenter your entire life, then one day some one told you to be a electrition, that suddenly makes you a great electrition, right?

Let's try this analogy.

If you were an experienced combat specialist known the galaxy over, and someone asks you to lead a combat operation, does that suddenly not make you an effective combat specialist?

and he got the tech expert killed because he could keep up proper supressing fire.

The tech expert dies because they jammed a door all by themselves.  Then they stuck their head out of it.  It had nothing to do with whomever was the fire team leader.

[pvt_java]

Because several of his war stories end with "And I was the only one who made it".

[A.N.A.N]

smudboy wrote...

Jigero wrote...
So if you where a Carpenter your entire life, then one day some one told you to be a electrition, that suddenly makes you a great electrition, right?

Let's try this analogy.

If you were an experienced combat specialist known the galaxy over, and someone asks you to lead a combat operation, does that suddenly not make you an effective combat specialist?

No, just not an effective combat leader

smudboy wrote...

and he got the tech expert killed because he could keep up proper supressing fire.

The tech expert dies because they jammed a door all by themselves.  Then they stuck their head out of it.  It had nothing to do with whomever was the fire team leader.

And because the second fire isn't providing supressing fire, Harbinger gets his Warp-Rocket thing off and kills the techie.

[TheGreyGhost119]

I'm sure someone mentioned this, but I heard that Zaeed was originally intended to be successful as only ONE of the fire team leaders (not sure which, I would assume 2nd) but Bioware decided against it at some point in development.

[smudboy]

A.N.A.N wrote...
No, just not an effective combat leader

And why not?

And because the second fire isn't providing supressing fire, Harbinger gets his Warp-Rocket thing off and kills the techie.

Nonsense.  If it is a successful team leader, the door doesn't get jammed and doesn't have to start pushing the door.

The success or failture of team leader has nothing to do with the ability for the tech expert to close the door.

[Lunatic LK47]

smudboy wrote...
Why not

History of mercs dying under his command and entire organization betraying him= Unlikely to follow his orders

Nonsense.  If it is a successful team leader, the door doesn't get jammed and doesn't have to start pushing the door.

The success or failture of team leader has nothing to do with the ability for the tech expert to close the door.

Uh, ever get involved in a firefight with a military or police escort watching your back? Tell me with a straight face that you can electronically seal doors problem-free without injury while you have a dozen hostile enemies shooting at you and your escort is doing a crappy job protecting you.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 04 août 2010 - 02:11 .

[smudboy]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
History of mercs dying under his command and entire organization betraying him= Unlikely to follow his orders

So, that's like what, Garrus too?

Uh, ever get involved in a firefight with a military or police escort watching your back? Tell me with a straight face that you can electronically seal doors problem-free without injury while you have a dozen hostile enemies shooting at you and your escort is doing a crappy job protecting you.

Except the tech expert isn't getting shot at.  Their escort is doing their job just fine (Shepard.)  But...now you're blaming Shepard?

[DKJaigen]

atheelogos wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

He had a high ranking position in the Blue Suns, shouldn't he know a thing or two about leading?

by all rights he should work just fine.

The question is not if he is a competent leader. No doubt he is. But the question is if he has the same tactical skills of garrus and miranda? very simply put : zaeed is competent but miranda and garrus are just better.

Same goes for the biotic and tech expert. maranda jacob and thane may be gstrong biotics but are they on the level of asari matriarch that jack and morinth/samara? 

[SaltBot]

A.N.A.N wrote...
No, just not an effective combat leader

smudboy wrote...
And why not?

Because some people are extremely good at their jobs but are just not good leaders.  Conversely, there are those who make really good leaders, but are no better than mediocre on an individual level.  Betrayals aside, it's been a (relatively) long time since Zaeed has been part of anything more than a one-man-show.  Even if he was a good leader in the past, his mission of vengeance has made him rusty to say the least.

Modifié par SaltBot, 04 août 2010 - 02:44 .

[smudboy]

DKJaigen wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

He had a high ranking position in the Blue Suns, shouldn't he know a thing or two about leading?

by all rights he should work just fine.

The question is not if he is a competent leader. No doubt he is. But the question is if he has the same tactical skills of garrus and miranda? very simply put : zaeed is competent but miranda and garrus are just better.

How?  How are Garrus and Miranda and Jacob combined better than Zaeed?

Same goes for the biotic and tech expert. maranda jacob and thane may be gstrong biotics but are they on the level of asari matriarch that jack and morinth/samara? 

Now this I can understand if it's a matter of power output or endurance.  The argument with Jacob being a good bubble barrier person is because well, his loyalty skill is a Barrier.  He's been doing it all game since loyalty.

The problem with the argument is everyone falters/gets tired at exactly the same times and positions, including Samara and Jack, which doesn't make sense.  Yet they can hold on for a few more seconds than everyone else and then explode their bubble, even though they've shown no skill in being able to create a biotic field of that function before.

[Ulicus]

Every story Zaeed tells you about leading others, every single one, be it on the Normandy or outside the weapons stall on the Citadel... involves the entire squad dying but him. While on the surface he's a sensible choice, if you know anything about the character, you know that he's crap in command.

Another thing: people don't mutiny if they trust the captain's leadership.

EDIT: Oh, looks like everyone else has already said this on the first page. How has this thread kept going, in that case? 

Modifié par Ulicus, 04 août 2010 - 02:52 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

SaltBot wrote...

A.N.A.N wrote...
No, just not an effective combat leader

smudboy wrote...
And why not?

Because some people are extremely good at their jobs but are just not good leaders.  Conversely, there are those who make really good leaders, but are no better than mediocre on an individual level.  Betrayals aside, it's been a (relatively) long time since Zaeed has been part of anything more than a one-man-show.  Even if he was a good leader in the past, his mission of vengeance has made him rusty to say the least.

It's apparent that Smudboy cannot accept the fact that being experienced in combat, and even being very skilled in it, does not automatically make one a good leader. The idea that combat experience and combat leadership experience (even if the two share a lot of overlap) are not the same clearly confuses him. You might as well talk to a wall. 

EDIT: As to why Zaeed would not be the ideal fire team leader, leadership is not just about making others do what you want to do - given Shepherd's team it's probably more getting others not to do what they want to do. Zaeed, for example, seems like the type who sees that Legion has GSB and assumes that he can use the Geth as bullet fodder. There's also all that jazz about knowing team member chemistry. Samara and Zaeed, being the recluses that they are, would not do as well as the default choices.

Would either of them know that Jack would probably not work well with Miranda and Jacob?

Re: defaults. Jacob and Garrus are friendly and buddy-buddy to everyone, in addition to combat prowess/experience. Miranda is probably the Batman-paranoid person of the group (and yes, I actually think Batman is a good, albeit atypical, leader). Default choices, explained. Done. 

Samara is too busy meditating - she talks to/knows Shepherd, but she's not being asked to command Shepherd. And Zaeed is just too bad ass to care about anyone else. 

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 04 août 2010 - 03:27 .

[Annihilator27]

Hope hes back for ME3, Hes the ****.

[smudboy]

Ulicus wrote...
Another thing: people don't mutiny if they trust the captain's leadership.

Or they were professional mercs and were paid to.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Shwiggliness wrote...

He had a high ranking position in the Blue Suns, shouldn't he know a thing or two about leading?

Because he's not a good leader as much as he's a good soldier. If you take the time and hear his "stories", the majority of them are like "I and my team attacked this one ship. It was one hell of a fight; everyone died but me." or "I fought a gang of krogan that day. Lost all my men, but it paid off because I killed the enemy leader."

What can you expect from someone like that?

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 04 août 2010 - 03:10 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

I think people are confusing Zaeed's *potential* leadership skills with his *actual* leadership skills. Same goes for Samara - arguably, both have the capacity to develop into very effective leaders, but at the time of the suicide mission they're not even in the same league as Garrus.

[Zulu_DFA]

Actually, Zaeed's stories about his missions often resulting in heavy casualties tell more about the nature of the mercs' job. It's inherently risky. When you're on the offensive facing a worthy opposition, you're bound to get stung a little, no matter what magnitude of tactical ingenuity you possess.



And Zaeed was stripped of his "right fireteam leader" role (Ecael testifies he had been planned for it at some point), because, hey, it's all contrived gameplay mechanics! Just like thermal ammo, ray-blocking barriers, and paragon/renegade score! Just deal with it!



Why, for example, a "tech expert" can be any better than anyone else at hacking the Door #1? It's an unknown alien technology, with which Tali and Legion have the same zero familiarity as Jacob or Thane! Storywise, it's actually EDI that hacks the door (cyber-warfare and anti-Reaper protocols are her thing, remember?) You heard it here first.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why, for example, a "tech expert" can be any better than anyone else at hacking the Door #1? It's an unknown alien technology, with which Tali and Legion have the same zero familiarity as Jacob or Thane! Storywise, it's actually EDI that hacks the door (cyber-warfare and anti-Reaper protocols are her thing, remember?) You heard it here first.

That's a pretty dumb argument. I know jack all about Mac OSX, but I can probably re-format a Mac faster than my grandma. Tech experts, like Kasumi, almost certainly have tons of experience hacking things from every alien race out there.

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 04 août 2010 - 03:32 .

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
It's apparent that Smudboy cannot accept the fact that being experienced in combat, and even being very skilled in it, does not automatically make one a good leader. The idea that combat experience and combat leadership experience (even if the two share a lot of overlap) are not the same clearly confuses him. You might as well talk to a wall. 

If I have a company and there's a guy there who's been working for over 5, 10, 20 years, you're damn right I'm putting him in charge of the type of work he's working on.

As to why Zaeed would not be the ideal fire team leader, leadership is not just about making others do what you want to do. It's about knowing the rest of your team as well - knowing what each member can and cannot do. There's also all that jazz about knowing team member chemistry. Samara and Zaeed, being the recluses that they are, would not do as well as the default choices.

Zaeed (and especially Kasumi) seem to be more cognizant of the people and events on the story and side stories than Jacob, Miranda and Garrus (he comments on Garrus, Jack, Jacob, on the Thresher Maw in Grunt's mission, even Joker after the abduction.)  Although Jacob does make comments on peoples lack of loyalty status.

Would either of them know that Jack would probably not work well with Miranda and Jacob?

Considering he's killed 50 or so Cerberus operatives before?

He's fully aware that the "destructive little ****" probably wouldn't work well with others.  Hell, Kelly's aware of that.

Re: defaults. Jacob and Garrus are friendly and buddy-buddy to everyone, in addition to combat prowess/experience. Miranda is probably the Batman-paranoid person of the group (and yes, I actually think Batman is a good, albeit atypical, leader). Default choices, explained. Done. 

If Jack gets killed and it's choose a leader time, even Garrus refers to Miranda " "I don't want you leading the second team. Half of us don't even trust you."  This is probably because she's Cerberus.  This is directly applicable to Jacob.

Regardless of picking the right or wrong squadmate, how the tech expert gets killed is not relatead, and how the leader gets killed and not everyone else is completely inapplicable to Zaeed's stories and experience (if he's the only one who survives save others, how is he the only one who doesn't, yet everyone else does?)

Samara is too busy meditating - she talks to/knows Shepherd, but she's not being asked to command Shepherd. And Zaeed is just too bad ass to care about anyone else. 

Yet she's teaching and instructing others in her stories.  In Miranda's comment of Samara as fire team leader is "Disciplined and skilled, excellent choice."  This is before her statement of "This isn't a populartiy contest.  Shepard, you need someone who can command loyalty through experience."  So it doesn't (shouldn't) matter how much everyone else likes the leader.  And Samara has the most experience.

[Zulu_DFA]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why, for example, a "tech expert" can be any better than anyone else at hacking the Door #1? It's an unknown alien technology, with which Tali and Legion have the same zero familiarity as Jacob or Thane! Storywise, it's actually EDI that hacks the door (cyber-warfare and anti-Reaper protocols are her thing, remember?) You heard it here first.

That's a pretty dumb argument. I know jack all about Mac OSX, but I can probably re-format a Mac faster than my grandma. Tech experts, like Kasumi, almost certainly have tons of experience hacking things from every alien race out there.

That's a pretty dumb argument. You can re-format Mac at all because you were shown / read somewhere how to do it. Sir Isaac Newton wouldn't be able to format Mac any faster than Sir Francis Drake.

No one in your ME2 squad had ever seen a Collector/Reaper code before. And anyway, EDI would do it faster. So the function of the person in the pipes is: to carry some device that would serve as an interface between EDI and the Door, so that she could hook up and hack it (she is a Reaper herself a little bit, so that's quite plausible, that she can do it in a reasonable amount of time.).

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

I think people are confusing Zaeed's *potential* leadership skills with his *actual* leadership skills. Same goes for Samara - arguably, both have the capacity to develop into very effective leaders, but at the time of the suicide mission they're not even in the same league as Garrus.

Garrus?  I was about to say the exact same of Zaeed, and then Samara.

Garrus has at most 2 years as a vigilante, with a merc group.  Garrus sounds more like a rebel or freedom fighter.
Zaeed is a 20 year long mercenary and soldier, arguably the best.  Who also had a merc group.  Zaeed is a professional.
Samara is a 1000 year old spreader of peace, love and justice through death, but will stop her pursuit of justice to save innocents.  Samara sounds like a blue magical force of death and hugs.

[IoCaster]

DKJaigen wrote...

The question is not if he is a competent leader. No doubt he is. But the question is if he has the same tactical skills of garrus and miranda? very simply put : zaeed is competent but miranda and garrus are just better.

If we rely on just the narrative and events in the game then what evidence is presented that Miranda is an experienced combat leader? 

Do we get a detailed dossier listing her many or any, successful combat missions, with or without casualties?

Does she have some war stories or anecdotes to relate to Shepard in her dialogue?

As far as we're aware she directed/managed the Lazarus Project and some other undefined and unrelated Cerberus operations. No details are ever given about these operations. Are they combat related? If they were combat related, what's her success rate and casualties suffered by her squad?

There's also the small matter of her interaction with the rest of the squad. At the suicide mission planning session, Jack objects to taking orders from Miranda. If Jack isn't there, Garrus will speak up and say that nobody trusts Miranda. That's some damning evidence that her leadership qualities aren't particularly inspiring to the troops.

From my perspective as the player it's not a difficult choice between Zaeed and Miranda.

Zaeed - Twenty years of combat experience. If you paragon his loyalty mission you get a commitment to put aside the past and be a team player. After Horizon and the Collector ship missions he'll tell you straight out that he realizes the scope of the mission. The Collectors are a real danger to humanity and the galaxy and he'll admit that. Plus he'll flat out state defiantly that, "They ain't doing that sh!t to us", on the Collector ship. All indications are that he's motivated and committed to the mission.

Miranda - There's no question that she's motivated and committed to the mission. What's missing is the in game evidence of her qualifications as a combat leader. There's also the problem that many squad members don't trust her.

That's one of the many problems with the narrative. We're supposed to assume that Miranda is a better choice than Zaeed, but we're never really given the evidence to support that contention. All we get are some anecdotes from Zaeed that are intended to convince us that he's gonna suck as a squad leader. Unfortunately, they didn't give me any supporting evidence to conclude that Miranda has any detailed qualification to be an effective combat leader.

I personally chose Garrus to lead my second team, but I can easily understand why other people would choose Zaeed.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Yeah, he could be a good fire team leader. No good reason not to be. Bioware mess up basically.