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[RyuGuitarFreak]

smudboy wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

I think people are confusing Zaeed's *potential* leadership skills with his *actual* leadership skills. Same goes for Samara - arguably, both have the capacity to develop into very effective leaders, but at the time of the suicide mission they're not even in the same league as Garrus.

Garrus?  I was about to say the exact same of Zaeed, and then Samara.

Garrus has at most 2 years as a vigilante, with a merc group.  Garrus sounds more like a rebel or freedom fighter.
Zaeed is a 20 year long mercenary and soldier, arguably the best.  Who also had a merc group.  Zaeed is a professional.
Samara is a 1000 year old spreader of peace, love and justice through death, but will stop her pursuit of justice to save innocents.  Samara sounds like a blue magical force of death and hugs.

Garrus had his career on C-Sec and had partial Specter training too. We don't know what was his status on C-Sec but I really doubt he wasn't on a very high rank.

[Fiery Phoenix]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

It's apparent that Smudboy cannot accept the fact that being experienced in combat, and even being very skilled in it, does not automatically make one a good leader. The idea that combat experience and combat leadership experience (even if the two share a lot of overlap) are not the same clearly confuses him. You might as well talk to a wall.

That's exactly it. I really don't see how a good soldier = good leader. No offense, Smud.

[IoCaster]

Ulicus wrote...

Every story Zaeed tells you about leading others, every single one, be it on the Normandy or outside the weapons stall on the Citadel... involves the entire squad dying but him. 

That's not true. The only anecdote that details the rest of his squad dying is the suicide mission to infiltrate and bring down a Turian warship. Some of the other anecdotes refer to deaths of team members on different missions, but not all of them by any stretch of the imagination.

[Fiery Phoenix]

IoCaster wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Every story Zaeed tells you about leading others, every single one, be it on the Normandy or outside the weapons stall on the Citadel... involves the entire squad dying but him. 

That's not true. The only anecdote that details the rest of his squad dying is the suicide mission to infiltrate and bring down a Turian warship. Some of the other anecdotes refer to deaths of team members on different missions, but not all of them by any stretch of the imagination.

I could swear he mentions his entire squad dying on more than one occasion.

[Kronner]

IoCaster wrote...

....

I personally chose Garrus to lead my second team, but I can easily understand why other people would choose Zaeed.

Miranda's Passive Power is called Cerberus Leader/Tactician. Read the description of the power. Then you can read description when picking the fire team leader.

[IoCaster]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Every story Zaeed tells you about leading others, every single one, be it on the Normandy or outside the weapons stall on the Citadel... involves the entire squad dying but him. 

That's not true. The only anecdote that details the rest of his squad dying is the suicide mission to infiltrate and bring down a Turian warship. Some of the other anecdotes refer to deaths of team members on different missions, but not all of them by any stretch of the imagination.

I could swear he mentions his entire squad dying on more than one occasion.

This is the only other anecdote that comes close:

Citadel, at Rodam Expeditions. After seeing a big gun exhibited in the shop, Zaeed will recall how he and a group of mercenaries once worked to take down a krogan armed with a weapon like this one. The krogan managed to kill most of the mercenaries, leading Zaeed to admire this gun.

Sounds a bit like a free for all. That would be an entertaining mission to watch if presented as a cutscene.  

[Fiery Phoenix]

^ Agreed. lol!

[IoCaster]

Kronner wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

....

I personally chose Garrus to lead my second team, but I can easily understand why other people would choose Zaeed.

Miranda's Passive Power is called Cerberus Leader/Tactician. Read the description of the power. Then you can read description when picking the fire team leader.

So what? Zaeed has a passive titled Mercenary Warlord. Big whoop!

How about some actual detailed history or information about what a successful and experienced combat leader she is instead of some passive power label?

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

smudboy wrote...

Garrus?  I was about to say the exact same of Zaeed, and then Samara.

Garrus has at most 2 years as a vigilante, with a merc group.  Garrus sounds more like a rebel or freedom fighter.
Zaeed is a 20 year long mercenary and soldier, arguably the best.  Who also had a merc group.  Zaeed is a professional.
Samara is a 1000 year old spreader of peace, love and justice through death, but will stop her pursuit of justice to save innocents.  Samara sounds like a blue magical force of death and hugs.

Since when has Zaeed's career as a soldier ever even been mentioned? Come on, he became bad ass after he became a merc. And Samara is awesome yes, but you have yet to provide a good reason why she would be a good leader.

You keep repeating the same thing - yes, we get it, Zaeed and Samara are the best at how they kill people, and have been doing it since before we were born. Unfortunately for you, killing people while leading others do not fall under the current skill sets of either Zaeed nor Samara.

For example, as bad ass as Zaeed is, he's just as likely to use you as fodder to draw targets out. Yeah, he lives, accomplishes the mission, is bad ass. Perhaps more importantly, unlike Shepherd (or Garrus, or Jacob, or even Miranda), he wouldn't warn people that it's a suicide mission when doing his recruitment drive if he was in charge of the mission. 

As a professional merc (as you put it), Zaeed can't claim that Cerberus pay cheque if he's dead, can he? If it comes down to the fireteam or his pay cheque, what do you think Zaeed is gonna choose? And don't you think everyone on the Normandy knows what he's gonna pick? It's not a bad thing - nobody is blaming him cause he is the best at what he does - but that doesn't make him a good leader and more importantly it wouldn't make people would want him to lead. 

[smudboy]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...
That's exactly it. I really don't see how a good soldier = good leader. No offense, Smud.

I'm curious: what is a good leader?  And how is a good, experienced person in X suddenly not able to act, behave or communicate with others beneath them in X?

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Every story Zaeed tells you about leading others, every single one, be it on the Normandy or outside the weapons stall on the Citadel... involves the entire squad dying but him. 

That's not true. The only anecdote that details the rest of his squad dying is the suicide mission to infiltrate and bring down a Turian warship. Some of the other anecdotes refer to deaths of team members on different missions, but not all of them by any stretch of the imagination.

I could swear he mentions his entire squad dying on more than one occasion.

Nope. A couple of times he mentions "half my squad" dying (including) the Citadel weapons stall anecdote, some with "a lot of men" dying, and even a couple of times when all made out alive. he does not alway mention that he was in command though... But in any case, Zaeed is deninitely more suitble than Miranda for team leading, given the amount of mistrust some companions experience toward her... What was her command record anyway? And there again, even if Zaeed is indeed such a "screw you all, I'm getting outta here alive!" type of warrior, he should be the last candidate to die at Door #2, regardless of his assigned duty...

So, I repeat: all suicide mission "roles" are game play mechanics. They have little to no story relevance or explanation, other than BioWare wanted that some squadmates died on the suicide mission. And to my taste they failed to make it properly (that is to ensure some deaths).

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

IoCaster wrote...

So what? Zaeed has a passive titled Mercenary Warlord. Big whoop!

How about some actual detailed history or information about what a successful and experienced combat leader she is instead of some passive power label?

Miranda is the Batman of the group (if the rest of the group is the Justice League). No, not everyone trusts her, and she's aloof and cold...but she's clearly not evil, highly skilled and knows just about everything. Furthermore, she has the trust of Shepherd (Superman)...and probably Garrus (Wonder Woman).  

She is not a tank, like Grunt. She's not the best shot (Legion, Garrus, Thane). Not the most powerful biotic (Samara)...not the best soldier, not the best etc. So in more ways than one, Miranda is like Batman - she wins by thinking and planning. For the same reason why Batman "leads" the Justice League, Miranda leads Cerberus.

[Kronner]

IoCaster wrote...

So what? Zaeed has a passive titled Mercenary Warlord. Big whoop!

How about some actual detailed history or information about what a successful and experienced combat leader she is instead of some passive power label?

How about you accept the fact that BioWare has the right to their own opinion? You may disagree, but that's about it. The in-game descriptions make it perfectly clear who is and who is not a good leader. Zaeed is a mercenary, a gun for hire. Where is any evidence he is a good leader? There is none, because he is not a good leader. Simple as that.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

smudboy wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...
That's exactly it. I really don't see how a good soldier = good leader. No offense, Smud.

I'm curious: what is a good leader?  And how is a good, experienced person in X suddenly not able to act, behave or communicate with others beneath them in X?

Among other things, a good leader is a force multiplier - the team should be greater than the sum of its parts/individual members. To do that, a good leader needs to know the ins-and-outs, the strengths and limits, of each team member, and how to overcome such limits with tactics or even another team member. And also be physically, emotionally and mentally in-tune with his/her teammates during combat to employ such strategies.  

Samara and Zaeed, while having the potential, do not have the capacity for such thinking in Mass Effect 2. Sure, they can lead, but force multipliers they are not. 

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 04 août 2010 - 04:40 .

[IoCaster]

Kronner wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

So what? Zaeed has a passive titled Mercenary Warlord. Big whoop!

How about some actual detailed history or information about what a successful and experienced combat leader she is instead of some passive power label?

How about you accept the fact that BioWare has the right to their own opinion? You may disagree, but that's about it. The in-game descriptions make it perfectly clear who is and who is not a good leader. Zaeed is a mercenary, a gun for hire. Where is any evidence he is a good leader? There is none, because he is not a good leader. Simple as that.

How about you accept the fact that I, as the player, want a coherent narrative. How about you accept the fact that I, as a consumer, have every right to be critical of the story, plot and/or any other element of the game.

What seems perfectly clear to you evidently wasn't very clear to a number of other players. There have been quite a few of these threads asking the same question about Zaeed. So unless you're making the claim that all of those players were too dumb to see the obvious and conclude that Zaeed sucks as a leader, then I'm not sure how it's perfectly clear. It's...you know...simple as that.

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
Since when has Zaeed's career as a soldier ever even been mentioned? Come on, he became bad ass after he became a merc. And Samara is awesome yes, but you have yet to provide a good reason why she would be a good leader.

"Mercenary soldier."  Did I get that wrong?

Miranda says so, twice.
1. Once before "you need someone who can command loyalty through experience" (loyalty = experience)  The more experience you've got, the more loyalty.
2. After choosing her, Miranda pretty much pats you on the back for doing so.

"As a maiden I served as a mercenary, I fought tyrants and pirates.  I experienced everything the galaxy has to offer." <-- this is before she was a Justicar, and worked with others.
"As a Justicar, I saw parts of Asari space few knows about." <-- she knows more than most.
"I destroyed villages and saved cities.  I even fought a Spectre." <-- she saved entire cities.  (Arguably her definition could also be through destroying such cities.)
"The Code compelled me to save the innocent, and he escaped." <-- Her Code compelled her to saved people over her desire to fight.
"One raid was called off when the pirates were able to verify that I was aboard." <-- pirates respect her on title alone.
(as a mercenary) "Until the day my troop was hired to guard a mysterious shipment on its way to some clandestine dropoff area.  I discovered the shipment was slaves to be traded to Collectors for advanced technology...I demanded that we turn around.  My mates disagreed.  After they were dead, I brought the ship around.  The Collector craft was just arriving" <-- Well, I bet those mates wished they listened?
(What did you do with the slaves?) "I lectured them on the virtues of strength and defending oneself.  Then I distributed the armor, weapons and credits of my dead colleagues, and released the captives on the Citadel." <-- taught others, helped them, gave them freedom.  Sounds kind of freedom fighterish.
"You've assembled a powerful group, but we are fighting an unknown.  I am ready for whatever comes, but I do not fool ourselves about our chances." <-- seems she's pretty cognizant of what's going on with the team and the mission.

You keep repeating the same thing - yes, we get it, Zaeed and Samara are the best at how they kill people, and have been doing it since before we were born. Unfortunately for you, killing people while leading others do not fall under the current skill sets of either Zaeed nor Samara.

Current?

For example, as bad ass as Zaeed is, he's just as likely to use you as fodder to draw targets out. Yeah, he lives, accomplishes the mission, is bad ass. Perhaps more importantly, unlike Shepherd (or Garrus, or Jacob, or even Miranda), he wouldn't warn people that it's a suicide mission when doing his recruitment drive if he was in charge of the mission. 

Where is there an example he'd use a squadmate as a fodder?

Perhaps?  Now you're making stuff up?

As a professional merc (as you put it), Zaeed can't claim that Cerberus pay cheque if he's dead, can he? If it comes down to the fireteam or his pay cheque, what do you think Zaeed is gonna choose? And don't you think everyone on the Normandy knows what he's gonna pick? It's not a bad thing - nobody is blaming him cause he is the best at what he does - but that doesn't make him a good leader and more importantly it wouldn't make people would want him to lead. 

Because he's a professional, all he cares about is his paycheck?  This could be said pre-loyalty, but not during it's successful end, not post, and definitely not after the Collector Ship Mission.

He makes a comment about Ronald Taylor after seeing the female camp "any CO who does this to his crew deserves a knife in his spine."

[IoCaster]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

So what? Zaeed has a passive titled Mercenary Warlord. Big whoop!

How about some actual detailed history or information about what a successful and experienced combat leader she is instead of some passive power label?

Miranda is the Batman of the group (if the rest of the group is the Justice League). No, not everyone trusts her, and she's aloof and cold...but she's clearly not evil, highly skilled and knows just about everything. Furthermore, she has the trust of Shepherd (Superman)...and probably Garrus (Wonder Woman).  

She is not a tank, like Grunt. She's not the best shot (Legion, Garrus, Thane). Not the most powerful biotic (Samara)...not the best soldier, not the best etc. So in more ways than one, Miranda is like Batman - she wins by thinking and planning. For the same reason why Batman "leads" the Justice League, Miranda leads Cerberus.

I really have no idea what any of that means. I have to assume that it's comic book related, but I haven't read a comic book in ages. I have stated a few times that the characters do remind me of 'comic book heroes' because of the costumes and some of their cutscene exploits.

I think that this issue, and many others, is mostly reliant on perspective. How deeply any one single player gets immersed in the story and how much suspension of disbelief he or she is willing to invest. I think that I'm pretty tolerant but there were times when I played the game where it just stretched credulity too far for me. Like I said it's a personal thing. *shrug*

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

spudboy says...

Whatever man. You clearly take every single word in the game as gospel - I mean, Miranda's "loyalty through experience" speech...really? That's Miranda talking, not Bioware.

People bs all the time - Miranda also says that she can crush a mech's skull with her biotics from 100 yards away. But! Oh noes! She can't! Your world just imploded didn't it?

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 04 août 2010 - 04:58 .

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...
Among other things, a good leader is a force multiplier - the team should be greater than the sum of its parts/individual members. To do that, a good leader needs to know the ins-and-outs, the strengths and limits, of each team member, and how to overcome such limits with tactics or even another team member. And also be physically, emotionally and mentally in-tune with his/her teammates during combat to employ such strategies.  

Samara and Zaeed, while having the potential, do not have the capacity for such thinking in Mass Effect 2. Sure, they can lead, but force multipliers they are not. 

Says who?

Just you?

Cause Miranda said it was "You need someone who can command loyalty through experience."  Number one pick?  Samara.

To me a leader is someone who gives orders.  A good leader is someone who gives good orders.  A good leader who also have to know the business they're in in order to make said good orders.

Zaeed has more comments about the crew, aside from Kasumi, then any other character on the team, except...Kelly.  How is he not cognizant of the team?

I have no idea wtf a force multiplier is, or how it relates to being a leader.

I bet a military leader would laugh at your "physically, emotionally and mentally" in tune comment, but maybe I don't hang out with enough people who've been in the military and talk about their stories.  You follow orders, or you die: it's that simple.

(Let's not forget even my understanding of wtf kind of squad the 2nd fire team leader was leading.  It sounds like everyone minus 5 (the 2nd team leader, Shepard, tech expert/bubble person, 2 Shepard squadmates)).  So they're leading up to 7 people around, which involves, in ME2, as far as I know, 1) Running for cover, 2) Shooting things, 3) Biotic/teching things. 4) knowing when to advance.  If it was such a complex role, then Shepard should've done it.  I would imagine having more people would allow for less tactics to be employed, then having to guess how everyone not in the team would react.

Which still doesn't make sense the effects of said outcome: a person not in their team dying (tech expert), and they themselves dying.

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

smudboy wrote...

Says who?

Just you?

Cause Miranda said it was "You need someone who can command loyalty through experience."  Number one pick?  Samara.

To me a leader is someone who gives orders.  A good leader is someone who gives good orders.  A good leader who also have to know the business they're in in order to make said good orders.

Zaeed has more comments about the crew, aside from Kasumi, then any other character on the team, except...Kelly.  How is he not cognizant of the team?

I have no idea wtf a force multiplier is, or how it relates to being a leader.

I bet a military leader would laugh at your "physically, emotionally and mentally" in tune comment, but maybe I don't hang out with enough people who've been in the military and talk about their stories.  You follow orders, or you die: it's that simple.

(Let's not forget even my understanding of wtf kind of squad the 2nd fire team leader was leading.  It sounds like everyone minus 5 (the 2nd team leader, Shepard, tech expert/bubble person, 2 Shepard squadmates)).  So they're leading up to 7 people around, which involves, in ME2, as far as I know, 1) Running for cover, 2) Shooting things, 3) Biotic/teching things. 4) knowing when to advance.  If it was such a complex role, then Shepard should've done it.  I would imagine having more people would allow for less tactics to be employed, then having to guess how everyone not in the team would react.

Which still doesn't make sense the effects of said outcome: a person not in their team dying (tech expert), and they themselves dying.

That's fantastic bro. Glad we talked. 

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

Whatever man. You clearly take every single word in the game as gospel - I mean, Miranda's "loyalty through experience" speech...really? That's Miranda talking, not Bioware.

Yeah.  Really.

Whatever man?  It's the narrative.  Anything said in the narrative belongs Bioware.

People bs all the time - Miranda also says that she can crush a mech's skull with her biotics from 100 yards away. But! Oh noes! She can't! Your world just imploded didn't it?

And we see CutScenePowerToTheMax with a few characters.  See a problem here?

Oh so Tali's really a good team leader, then despite Miranda's objections?  Oh wait she isn't.

If the narrtive says and shows me one thing, whose effects do not reflect what was said, there is a disconnect between narrative and proposed reality.  So if we can't believe the narrative, it's anyone's guess.

Which means every argument you have about the narrative is also bs.

Modifié par smudboy, 04 août 2010 - 04:59 .

[V0luS_R0cKs7aR]

smudboy wrote...
And we see CutScenePowerToTheMax with a few characters.  See a problem here?

No, actually I don't see a problem. Please explain it to me again. Use smaller words please - nothing more than 4-letters ok?

Modifié par V0luS_R0cKs7aR, 04 août 2010 - 05:02 .

[smudboy]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

smudboy wrote...
And we see CutScenePowerToTheMax with a few characters.  See a problem here?

No, actually I don't see a problem. Please explain it to me again. Use smaller words please. 

http://tvtropes.org/...nePowerToTheMax

The narrative (Jack, Thane, Samara, Miranda, Garrus) shows them doing spectacular things in cutscenes.  (Destroying YMIR mechs with ease, going invisible/moving really fast, etc.)  However, in the game they aren't as powerful.  This is an example of a disconnect between what we're shown and told, and what impact that has on the world.  Much like the narrative telling us of ones combat experience or stories, yet not having an effective result (let alone the effects of that result not even making causal sense.)  That is to say, how a team leader of any skill gets someone else killed that's not in their team when their actions had nothing to do with the tech expert, and how Zaeed is the only one who dies as the 2nd team leader, yet we know him to be a survivor in all his 20 years of experience, despite others around him dying.

[sickserb]

smudboy wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

That' wasn't Garrus's fault. Sidonis did betray him.

Right.  And we can apply that same argument to Zaeed, with Vido.

sidnois was the one bad apple in garrus's group. Zaeed's men held him down while vido shot him in the face.

[Pedrak]

Some points:

1) Zaeed has been a bounty hunter for a while, working alone, so he might be "out of shape" as a leader.

2) He is a ruthless, cruel man whom people like Jacob, Thane, Garrus might not trust or respect;

3) From his background, attitude and anecdotes, he strikes me as the kind of leader who might get the job done, but not care excessively about whether his followers survive or not. He really does not seem to value other people's life - is it so hard to imagine him using squad members as "cannon fodder" if this allows him to achieve a task?