440 réponses à ce sujet

[sickserb]

smudboy wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

smudboy wrote...
And we see CutScenePowerToTheMax with a few characters.  See a problem here?

No, actually I don't see a problem. Please explain it to me again. Use smaller words please. 

http://tvtropes.org/...nePowerToTheMax

The narrative (Jack, Thane, Samara, Miranda, Garrus) shows them doing spectacular things in cutscenes.  (Destroying YMIR mechs with ease, going invisible/moving really fast, etc.)  However, in the game they aren't as powerful.  This is an example of a disconnect between what we're shown and told, and what impact that has on the world.  Much like the narrative telling us of ones combat experience or stories, yet not having an effective result (let alone the effects of that result not even making causal sense.)  That is to say, how a team leader of any skill gets someone else killed that's not in their team when their actions had nothing to do with the tech expert, and how Zaeed is the only one who dies as the 2nd team leader, yet we know him to be a survivor in all his 20 years of experience, despite others around him dying.

and yea this bothered me a whole lot, jack was destroying mechs left and right and all of a sudden, the next mission i bring her she runs out of cover constantly and dies a total of 10 times

[smudboy]

sickserb wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

That' wasn't Garrus's fault. Sidonis did betray him.

Right.  And we can apply that same argument to Zaeed, with Vido.

sidnois was the one bad apple in garrus's group. Zaeed's men held him down while vido shot him in the face.

Yes, after Vido bribed six of them.

Sidonis betrayed Garrus.  Vido betrayed Zaeed.  How and why is neither here nor there.

[Fiery Phoenix]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

smudboy wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...
That's exactly it. I really don't see how a good soldier = good leader. No offense, Smud.

I'm curious: what is a good leader?  And how is a good, experienced person in X suddenly not able to act, behave or communicate with others beneath them in X?

Among other things, a good leader is a force multiplier - the team should be greater than the sum of its parts/individual members. To do that, a good leader needs to know the ins-and-outs, the strengths and limits, of each team member, and how to overcome such limits with tactics or even another team member. And also be physically, emotionally and mentally in-tune with his/her teammates during combat to employ such strategies.  

Samara and Zaeed, while having the potential, do not have the capacity for such thinking in Mass Effect 2. Sure, they can lead, but force multipliers they are not. 

This.

By your logic, Smud, any good soldier can make a good leader, which I'm afraid makes zero sense.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 04 août 2010 - 05:43 .

[Mecha Tengu]

Zaeed is more of the lone wolf guy who does his job, but doesnt give a crap about others



I can imagine telling him, Jack and Grunt to go to the kitchen and make a sandwich, and he'll be to only one to come back with a burnt piece of bread and a bloody nose.

[Fiery Phoenix]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

Zaeed is DLC that's why he doesn't work.....

Kasumi does work if you use her as the tech specialist and send her into the vents, though. Or is that because she isn't free like Zaeed?

[Mecha Tengu]

CN is not free, Zaeed is not free

[Fiery Phoenix]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

CN is not free, Zaeed is not free

CN isn't free only if you buy a used copy of ME2. Or am I mistaken?

[Mecha Tengu]

CN cost is includded in the cost when u buy Me2



its like taxes.. healthcare in canada is not free

[MaaZeus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

That' wasn't Garrus's fault. Sidonis did betray him.

Right.  And we can apply that same argument to Zaeed, with Vido.

Vido wasn't the only part where Zaeed had a lot of men die on him, though. Some were legit missions.

Indeed. And Garrus with his team was doing really well, mercs never had a chance. Apparently Sidonis was quite trustworthy too, until fear for his life got the better of him and made him betray Garrus (who had no reason to not trust him so far, so it really was a pure backstab).
Vido was rotten to the core and Zaeed KNEW it and didnt agree with his views, he did say so. And Vido turned majority of his men against him. It wasnt exactly backstabbing a trust from Vidos part as it was just removing a person who he had a quarrel with and who he didnt need anymore. Zaeed simply lost.

So yeah, situations between Garrus and Zaeed are not comparable. So what we have left are their missions. Garrus with his team were doing well where Zaeed was more like a survivor. Missions get done but people around him tend to die.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 04 août 2010 - 06:06 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

CN cost is includded in the cost when u buy Me2

its like taxes.. healthcare in canada is not free

Ah, that's what I thought.

[Raizo]

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

Agreed. It's not that he does not have the skill to be a good team leader, I just don't think he really gives a damn about anyone, not enough to lead them into combat and care whether his team mates make it out alive or not. Despite his history as a merc boss Zaeed strikes me as a loner who does not work well with others.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

CN cost is includded in the cost when u buy Me2

its like taxes.. healthcare in canada is not free

cool story bro

And I suppose 30% of how much I spend on a computer game goes to SecuRom as well

[smudboy]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...
By your logic, Smud, any good soldier can make a good leader, which I'm afraid makes zero sense.

What's your definition of a good soldier?

Would one with 2 years experience then be considered good enough to lead other soldiers?

How about 20?

How about 1000?

[tonnactus]

jklinders wrote...

Most of his war stories ended with something like "...and I was the only one who got out alive" People die around him when he is in charge.

You mean like sole survivor shepardt? That zaeed lost a lot people under his guidance doesnt mean necessarily that
he was a bad leader.The missions could be that hard and difficult.

Modifié par tonnactus, 04 août 2010 - 06:24 .

[tonnactus]

jklinders wrote...
 Zaeed was betrayed by his own organization

Miranda got betrayed by wilson and lost a cerberus space station because of it.(as far as the player now/maybee wilson was just a pawn)

Half of the team didnt trust her. And yet she is still a good leader because bioware decide it.

Modifié par tonnactus, 04 août 2010 - 06:27 .

[XBeth]

MaaZeus wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...
That' wasn't Garrus's fault. Sidonis did betray him.

Right.  And we can apply that same argument to Zaeed, with Vido.

Vido wasn't the only part where Zaeed had a lot of men die on him, though. Some were legit missions.

Indeed. And Garrus with his team was doing really well, mercs never had a chance. Apparently Sidonis was quite trustworthy too, until fear for his life got the better of him and made him betray Garrus (who had no reason to not trust him so far, so it really was a pure backstab).
Vido was rotten to the core and Zaeed KNEW it and didnt agree with his views, he did say so. And Vido turned majority of his men against him. It wasnt exactly backstabbing a trust from Vidos part as it was just removing a person who he had a quarrel with and who he didnt need anymore. Zaeed simply lost.

So yeah, situations between Garrus and Zaeed are not comparable. So what we have left are their missions. Garrus with his team were doing well where Zaeed was more like a survivor. Missions get done but people around him tend to die.

Yeah, Zaeed worked with mercs, but it still counts as betrayal if your parther turns on you. And as you said, mercs are entirely different kind of people to the good men fighting with Garrus.
So how does Zaeed being betrayed by mercs mean he's a bad leader? They were just promised more money from Vido.

And over all of the 20 years of being a mercenary (+ his years as soldier before), on how many missions had he been? Certainly not those few he talked about. He only talked about those that were most tough or somehow significant for him. Why would he say he killed some boss on a mission without any difficulties? And we don't even know how many mercs were there with him.. you can't effectively protect 20, as you can 2.

As someone already said, he knows how important and dangerous the mission is. And I bet he's smart enough to realize he wouldn't succeed without others. So it's obvious he wants them to stay alive, even if he mostly cares about himself.

[tonnactus]

jklinders wrote...
This goes goes double for Samara who has spent more than half her life as a recluse.

She worked as a merc for a long before she became a justicar.

[IoCaster]

In the context of the game and the suicide mission what would normally be considered a 'good leader', isn't particularly relevant. We're not talking about a regular army squad, platoon or company. These people haven't trained together as a cohesive combat unit and part of a professional army.


These people are not soldiers, they're freelance operatives. This is a pick-up team of supposed specialists. They could almost be categorized as a ragtag group of mercenaries. That's the way the narrative unfolds and Shepard is stuck with the unenviable task of essentially 'herding a group of cats'. All of those recruitment and loyalty missions are required precisely because this isn't a professional Spec Ops unit. There's no instilled discipline or organizational cohesiveness for a supposed 'good leader' to rely on. If anything this is the exact type of unit structure that Zaeed has the most experience with.

[sickserb]

IoCaster wrote...

In the context of the game and the suicide mission what would normally be considered a 'good leader', isn't particularly relevant. We're not talking about a regular army squad, platoon or company. These people haven't trained together as a cohesive combat unit and part of a professional army.


These people are not soldiers, they're freelance operatives. This is a pick-up team of supposed specialists. They could almost be categorized as a ragtag group of mercenaries. That's the way the narrative unfolds and Shepard is stuck with the unenviable task of essentially 'herding a group of cats'. All of those recruitment and loyalty missions are required precisely because this isn't a professional Spec Ops unit. There's no instilled discipline or organizational cohesiveness for a supposed 'good leader' to rely on. If anything this is the exact type of unit structure that Zaeed has the most experience with.

agreed, but you still gota see that zaeed's a merc who kills for the highest bidder

he did it for the money

[SaltBot]

smudboy wrote...

What's your definition of a good soldier?

Would one with 2 years experience then be considered good enough to lead other soldiers?

How about 20?

How about 1000?

The definition of a good soldier is one who can complete all tasks required of his position to a high degree of proficiency while minimising costs.  It's no different than an employee in any other kind of public or private organisation, the only real difference is the kinds of tasks soldiers wind up doing.

Trust me when I say this: soldier skills and leadership skills are two different categories of skills; there is some overlap, but I think you'd be surprised by how little.  Some people make really, really good soldiers, but really, really crappy leaders.  Conversely, some people make very mediocre soldiers but turn out to be superb leaders.  When you talk about experience, don't just measure it in years.  You have to look at what kind of experience it is: as a soldier or as a leader?

[Peridian]

Zaeed was a mercenary leader two decades ago, and since then he's been more concerned about his own life then that of others. I don't think that both of those factors wouldn't have sharpened his leading skills.

Garrus' squad was annihilated because they were betrayed, not because he was a bad leader (if you disagree then listen the things Sidonis said if you follow the Paragon path). Sidonis just snapped at the future of getting tortured and/or killed. Turning on you comrades for money or for fear of your life are two different things.

Then there's the instinctive reaction to hearing something and reacting to it. Regardless of their feelings toward the Mirand, Garrus or Jacob, as long as they say the right thing at the right time, I wouldn't rule it out that even Jack would act accordingly.

Then there the attitude Zaeed seem to have toward his jobs. Zaeed doesn't seem to care what happens as long as he survives and gets paid. That's not an attitude you need when lives are at stake (he is paid to get the job done, not to make sure the team survives).

Also to smud: being a good soldier is not the same as being a good leader.
Are you a good leader if you know how to follow your orders well? And if you can survive well? Ask anyone who knows a bit about management, and they'll tell you that the leading and following are not the same.

Modifié par Peridian, 04 août 2010 - 06:57 .

[tonnactus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Why, for example, a "tech expert" can be any better than anyone else at hacking the Door #1? It's an unknown alien technology, with which Tali and Legion have the same zero familiarity as Jacob or Thane! .

Aehm no.Legion at least stated that the geth encrypted the datefile structure of reaper software for example.So the geth
platform is the best for this job.(should be)

[freeman2008]

Except that Zaeed only cares about himself and his own agenda, which is self survival and collecting his check. He's a good soldier but a bad leader. He doesn't care about the outcome. He showed that when he sacrificed an entire mining facility for revenge against Vido. Can't expect anyone to survive his leadership.

[IoCaster]

sickserb wrote...

agreed, but you still gota see that zaeed's a merc who kills for the highest bidder

he did it for the money

Cerberus is apparently paying him a large amount of credits to help Shepard "Stop the Collectors", so everything should be cool.