440 réponses à ce sujet

[XBeth]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zaeed doesn't care about the lives of other people. He says so in his damn mission (which is why I'm saving it for post suicide mission so I can kill the bastard) he tells you his mission is to save the refinery people then once we start it's a 180 to kill vido and to let the refinery workers burn so Vido can die. what kind of leader willingly goes against his own mission just to kill someone? Garrus was able to keep one team of people alive for years, Miranda's kept many people (including Jacob) alive for all of he missions prior to wilsons betrayal, and Jacob kept the council alive. nuff said.

Can any of us honestly say what they would do if something they desperately wanted for 20 years was right there, only to reach out? I'm pretty sure most people would reach out. And Zaeed had probably seen worse thing as a merc. I don't think he would sacrifice innocent people on daily basis, but this particular mission was different. Maybe he just lost it, seing Vido so close, but I'm not really surprised, he's just a human after all. And this was one mission. Renegade Shepard had also killed people he could have spared, those who weren't really bad.

[Fiery Phoenix]

smudboy wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

smudboy wrote...



Garrus was betrayed.  Miranda was betrayed.  Zaeed was betrayed.  And Jacob's a nobody.  Not seeing a difference.

And miranda was betrayed twice.By wilson and niket.Doesnt that say something about her knowledge of human nature,
a important thing leaders should have?

Leaders' aren't born; they're made *crosses arms*

I seriously have no idea why you seem to think leadership is a natural skill. Not that I care or will even bother continuing this debate.

[smudboy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zaeed doesn't care about the lives of other people. He says so in his damn mission (which is why I'm saving it for post suicide mission so I can kill the bastard) he tells you his mission is to save the refinery people then once we start it's a 180 to kill vido and to let the refinery workers burn so Vido can die. what kind of leader willingly goes against his own mission just to kill someone? Garrus was able to keep one team of people alive for years, Miranda's kept many people (including Jacob) alive for all of he missions prior to wilsons betrayal, and Jacob kept the council alive. nuff said.

Zaeed's mission was to kill Vido.  How is he going against his own mission when he's not in charge of it, yet only cares about killing Vido?  He has only one goal.  That's what makes him a Renegade.  Are those innocents part of his mission?  No.  Going Paragon fails his goal, yet a successful Paragon makes Zaeed accept being part of a team.

I'm sure Miranda has kept people alive on some missions: we just haven't heard any.  If that's the case, I'm sure she got many people killed, too.  (It's Cerberus.  Zaeed probably killed them.)  Jacob's middle name is "excess baggage."

Garrus was able to keep 10 people alive for around 2 years.  So, Zaeed founding a merc group 20 years ago accounts for what, nothing?  Did the Blue Suns all die?

Survivors from stories:
5 men died in his Verrikan mission. <-- 0/5
Dropped blind into the Krogan DMZ: "...but we lost way too many men." <-- unknown, but we implies survivors
"Me and a buddy got hired to take out this one guy...turns out it was a trap.  Got jumped by two Batarians, a Krogan and a Hanar". No mention of his buddy dying. <-- 1/1.
Grim Angels, small outfit.  Krogan Battlemaster killed half his squad. <-- 1/2d
"Me and some friends got stupid one night...we got all out except my buddy Narkov(sp?)" <-- d-1/d

Zaeed has a body of stories to account for his 20 years of experience as a Renegade.  Garrus has 2 years and 10 dead men in an anti-mercenary mercenary group.

Other interesting Zaeed stories:
"Killing on salary is too easy.  I have to work for every job I get.  Makes me really look at the job.  Makes me care who I'm hunting.  Otherwise it's just another name on a piece of paper."
"Collectors and Protheans, it's all about my pay grade.  I'm more used to putting down rebellions...still, even I know a galaxy shaking revelation when I hear one.  Makes fighting land for pay seem small time."

[SupidSeep]

A good leader have people ready to follow, and fight and put their own lives on the line for him/her, believing that the leader will do his/her utmost to take care of them (or at least don't waste their lives needlessly - spending lives to achieve a sufficently important goal is another matter).

Garrus showed he was a leader when people rallied under him at Omega oppose the gangs of Omega. While he led them, they were unstoppable and a scourge to the Blood Pack, Blue Suns and Eclipse. Garrus' team got torn apart ONLY when the gangs forced Sidonis to lure him away and not be around to command them while they hit his team, knowing they was vulnerable WITHOUT Garrus. He, the leader, made his team awesome. That is why I picked Garrus without hesitation as team leader at the end of ME2.

Zaed had 20 years of elite high-paying mercenary work, did he even get one loyal follower? The Blue Suns helped Vido restraint him to get shot!

Garrus was fighting in Omega for less than 2 years, and he had nothing good to offer anyone who would serve under him (it was a futile war against impossible odds, no guaranteed payout, high risk of death), yet people WILLINGLY assembled him to form a team because they believed in him and his cause.  The wife of one of his dead team members said in her email that her husband was PROUD of his work with Garrus.

Modifié par SupidSeep, 04 août 2010 - 10:05 .

[smudboy]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...
I seriously have no idea why you seem to think leadership is a natural skill. Not that I care or will even bother continuing this debate.

I seriously don't either.

[Anezay]

Even if you as the PC like Miranda, the fact remains that the majority of your crew think she's a total ****. They wouldn't like following her orders.

Jacob has no reason to be a fire team leader. It would make about as much sense to put Grunt up there.

Garrus actually makes sense. He managed to lead his team of a dozen individuals to completely ****** off three huge mercenary groups. They only died because Sidonus is a team-killing **********.

Zaeed ought to know a thing or two about suicide missions by now, but then again, so should Mordin, if his stories are to be believed.

[Fiery Phoenix]

smudboy wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...
I seriously have no idea why you seem to think leadership is a natural skill. Not that I care or will even bother continuing this debate.

I seriously don't either.

I realize the bad wording on my part, and I apologize for it. But what I mean should be clear by this point.

[thegreateski]

Shwiggliness wrote...

He had a high ranking position in the Blue Suns, shouldn't he know a thing or two about leading?

In case you didn't notice . . . most of his squad dies in all those missions he mentions while "waxing nostalgic".

Modifié par thegreateski, 04 août 2010 - 10:01 .

[ADLegend21]

smudboy wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zaeed doesn't care about the lives of other people. He says so in his damn mission (which is why I'm saving it for post suicide mission so I can kill the bastard) he tells you his mission is to save the refinery people then once we start it's a 180 to kill vido and to let the refinery workers burn so Vido can die. what kind of leader willingly goes against his own mission just to kill someone? Garrus was able to keep one team of people alive for years, Miranda's kept many people (including Jacob) alive for all of he missions prior to wilsons betrayal, and Jacob kept the council alive. nuff said.

Zaeed's mission was to kill Vido.  How is he going against his own mission when he's not in charge of it, yet only cares about killing Vido?  He has only one goal.  That's what makes him a Renegade.  Are those innocents part of his mission?  No.  Going Paragon fails his goal, yet a successful Paragon makes Zaeed accept being part of a team.

I'm sure Miranda has kept people alive on some missions: we just haven't heard any.  If that's the case, I'm sure she got many people killed, too.  (It's Cerberus.  Zaeed probably killed them.)  Jacob's middle name is "excess baggage."

Garrus was able to keep 10 people alive for around 2 years.  So, Zaeed founding a merc group 20 years ago accounts for what, nothing?  Did the Blue Suns all die?

Survivors from stories:
5 men died in his Verrikan mission. <-- 0/5
Dropped blind into the Krogan DMZ: "...but we lost way too many men." <-- unknown, but we implies survivors
"Me and a buddy got hired to take out this one guy...turns out it was a trap.  Got jumped by two Batarians, a Krogan and a Hanar". No mention of his buddy dying. <-- 1/1.
Grim Angels, small outfit.  Krogan Battlemaster killed half his squad. <-- 1/2d
"Me and some friends got stupid one night...we got all out except my buddy Narkov(sp?)" <-- d-1/d

Zaeed has a body of stories to account for his 20 years of experience as a Renegade.  Garrus has 2 years and 10 dead men in an anti-mercenary mercenary group.

Other interesting Zaeed stories:
"Killing on salary is too easy.  I have to work for every job I get.  Makes me really look at the job.  Makes me care who I'm hunting.  Otherwise it's just another name on a piece of paper."
"Collectors and Protheans, it's all about my pay grade.  I'm more used to putting down rebellions...still, even I know a galaxy shaking revelation when I hear one.  Makes fighting land for pay seem small time."

Zaeed's expaining of his mission was that he was to deal with the capture of the refinery since it's workers were being used for slave labor and how do you deal with slave labor? by freeing the slaves, not killing them to catch up to one man who betrayed you 20 years aog, especially when you knew he would. The suicide mission is about an hours work I'd say and Garrus kept 10 men (the second fire team consits of 8 so Garrus is 2 under his usual body of work so that means he can do more to keep the team alive) Miranda has also led cells of 50 operatives for more than an hours work and besides "live fire excercise for shepard"  at the beginning of the game that's alot better than Zaeed losing an entire squad in a his verrakin mission (which he lost 5 guys) so what makes you think he can lead 8 people? While Zaeed has more experience, Garrus's experience has better quality: hundreds of Geth, Krogan, and Hell three merc bands at the same time with countless freelancers BY HIMSELF!  I'm sorry, but I'm betting that a guy who can stop a small army on his own can vanquish some collectors with 8 highly trained specialist and come out with not even a drop of sweat on a single person.

Yes Zaeed founded the blue suns 20 years ago, got betrayed and VIDO ran the suns for the rest of that 20 year period so that doesn't even count for his leadership experience. Zaeed seems like the kinda guy whod throw his pawns, knights, bishops, and rooks away just to take out his opponents Queen if he were playing chess, while garrus semms like the guy who'd put his pawn out there to set up the queen, then have a bishop take it out before it cn get his pawn and then get them out of harms way. Miranda seems liek the one who'd actually send in a pawn, have it about to be taken, then have the pawn get upgraded toa rook and take out the queen, while Jacob would just send his queen afte the other and take it out. Shepard says so his.herself on the mission "we don't sacrafice lives to complete a mission, there's always another way. Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob don't throw people away to succeed, they succedd and keep people alive while doing it and to quote garrus "stylishly" aswell.

[Anezay]

thegreateski wrote...

Shwiggliness wrote...

He had a high ranking position in the Blue Suns, shouldn't he know a thing or two about leading?

In case you didn't notice . . . most of his squad dies in all those missions he mentions while "waxing nostalgic".

Even Jessie died, eventually.

[Anezay]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Yes Zaeed founded the blue suns 20 years ago, got betrayed and VIDO ran the suns for the rest of that 20 year period so that doesn't even count for his leadership experience. Zaeed seems like the kinda guy whod throw his pawns, knights, bishops, and rooks away just to take out his opponents Queen if he were playing chess, while garrus semms like the guy who'd put his pawn out there to set up the queen, then have a bishop take it out before it cn get his pawn and then get them out of harms way. Miranda seems liek the one who'd actually send in a pawn, have it about to be taken, then have the pawn get upgraded toa rook and take out the queen, while Jacob would just send his queen afte the other and take it out. Shepard says so his.herself on the mission "we don't sacrafice lives to complete a mission, there's always another way. Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob don't throw people away to succeed, they succedd and keep people alive while doing it and to quote garrus "stylishly" aswell.

I'd say that Zaeed would say "screw chess" and shoot the board. Miranda would send her pawns to the death one at a time, cackling all the way. Garrus would play all properly, and therefore, boring, but would kick your ass along the way. And Jacob? Jacob would try to eat the chess pieces or something.

[SupidSeep]

Anezay wrote...

Even Jessie died, eventually.

Ow, even Zaed's gun died on him!

Seriously, IMO smudboy is either trolling or he's absolutely clueless about what it takes to be a leader.

[smudboy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zaeed's expaining of his mission was that he was to deal with the capture of the refinery since it's workers were being used for slave labor and how do you deal with slave labor? by freeing the slaves, not killing them to catch up to one man who betrayed you 20 years aog, especially when you knew he would.

Zaeed: "Seems he recently captured an Eldfell-Ashland refinery on Zorya and is using their workers for slave labor.  The company wants it dealt with."

When you hire Zaeed, to deal with something, things either 1) die, 2) explode, 3) both.  Zaeed gets his man, company gets their problem taken care of.  I'm not seeing a problem here.  He is not some diplomat.  He gets in, blows sh+t up, and gets the job done.

The suicide mission is about an hours work I'd say and Garrus kept 10 men (the second fire team consits of 8 so Garrus is 2 under his usual body of work so that means he can do more to keep the team alive) Miranda has also led cells of 50 operatives for more than an hours work and besides "live fire excercise for shepard"  at the beginning of the game that's alot better than Zaeed losing an entire squad in a his verrakin mission (which he lost 5 guys) so what makes you think he can lead 8 people?

What does the comparison of the Suicide Mission, Garrus keeping 10 men alive for two years, or Miranda leading cells + stuff have to do with Zaeed losing an entire squad on the Verrikan?  How about his work with the Grim Angels?  Or dropping blind in the Krogan DMZ?

7 at most.  He can lead them because he's good at Suicide Missions.  Garrus and Miranda are not.  Because he has 20 years worth more experience?  Because not all of his stories end up in death, as I've listed before?

While Zaeed has more experience, Garrus's experience has better quality: hundreds of Geth, Krogan, and Hell three merc bands at the same time with countless freelancers BY HIMSELF!

BY HIMSELF?  YOU MEAN LIKE ZAEED IS BY HIMSELF?

So because Garrus has two years of experience...of...one operation...and Zaeed has 20 years worth of multiple operations...it's less quality?  Right.

"Get a knife stuck in the right way, and you can pull that plate right off a Krogan's head."  <-- Does Garrus know how to get a Krogan to talk, or how to threaten them?
"My first impossible mission as an independent contractor.  There's been many since."  <-- I mentioned this before, but apparently you didn't read it.   Zaeed's gone on multiple suicide missions.  Quality of Zaeed missions > Garrus's ONE mission.
"Two Batarians a Krogan and a Hanar." <-- met anyone who's survived an attack by a Hanar?
"I remember Jessie's first kill...I ran through miles of filth and rust to hunt him down.  When I finally cornered him that gun was caked in two inches of the foulest sludge you can imagine...two shots and he died right there." <-- Zaeed will hunt you down and you will die.
"I was trying to remember how many Cerberus operatives I've killed.  Lost track around 50." <-- This is hardly an achievement.  We can assume this number to be in the hundreds.
"I killed my way across the Terminus System with that gun...I owe half my reputation to that gun right there." <-- Did Garrus ever kill across a sector of the galaxy before?  With one gun?  Did his one gun ever make him famous enough to be the best mercenary solider and bounty hunter in said galaxy?
"I was hunting down this Batarian slaver.  Carved my way through a 100 Batarian mooks...So I smashed his face in with the butt of the gun." <-- Did Garrus kill a hundred Batarians in one mission?  Oh wait, he might have...after two years.
"I used to do a little scorched earth work here and there."  <-- I remember Shepard sabotaging one mech on Garrus's mission.  Garrus can fire a gun and step on people's necks.  Zaeed nukes planets on weekends.
"(Gizzark) Used to run the Blood Pack out of Omega about 17 years ago.  Wasn't even a job. The guy just thought he'd hijack a freighter I was hitchhiking on.  Big mistake. I goated Gizzark in a 1 on 1 combat, took out his legs, grabbed his gun, and killed every Blook Pack bastard in the room.  That was the most beaten Krogan I've ever seen.  Kept the helmet to remind me of that pained expression." <--  Zaeed can take on a mercenary band for the hell of it.
"Salarian infiltration specialist.  Guy could disable a stations security with a few taps on an omni tool.  He went to work with Eclipse a few years back.  Had to kill him for a job.  Your Mordin Solus reminds me of him."  <-- Mmm.  Infiltration experts.
"Collectors and Protheans.  It's all about my pay grade.  I'm more used to putting down rebellions, tracking down bastards who didn't pay their gambling debts...makes fighting land wars for pay seem small time." <-- Zaeed fights land wars for pay.  In between taking down rebellions after lunch.  If those merc groups going after Garrus hired Zaeed = one dead Turian, for dessert.
"You smoke Shepard?  Don't." <-- Winners don't do drugs.  Losers throw butts into crates of explosives.  Zaeed knows.
"Ever been to a Batarian prison?...In there you've got two optiosn.  Bash your head open on the wall, or kill everyone between you and the exit." <-- Guess which one Zaeed did?
"I haven't been to a dog fight in ages.  I don't like it...There's just a terminal.  You lose the human element...slow dogs always fight harder." <-- Zaeed knows dogs.  Zaeed doesn't like terminals: he doesn't like the plight of the disposessed.  What does Garrus do all day?  Stare at a terminal and calibrate.  I think Garrus needs some therapy.
"Joker handled himself well.  Should've come back here and got him a real weapon...Pretty sure I'd be laid up in bed if I were him." <-- Even Zaeed is aware of the awesome that is Joker.

I'm sorry, but I'm betting that a guy who can stop a small army on his own can vanquish some collectors with 8 highly trained specialist and come out with not even a drop of sweat on a single person.

Maybe.

Zaeed would do that every other month.

Yes Zaeed founded the blue suns 20 years ago, got betrayed and VIDO ran the suns for the rest of that 20 year period so that doesn't even count for his leadership experience.

He handled the men.  He taught them everything they knew.  Vido was just a guy who did the books.  It took 6 ZAEED TRAINED BADASSES to HOLD HIM DOWN, then put a bullet to the head to stop him.  He's still alive.  Did he need cybernetic enhancement?  Was there a doctor around?  What was his anesthetic?

RAGE.

Zaeed seems like the kinda guy whod throw his pawns, knights, bishops, and rooks away just to take out his opponents Queen if he were playing chess, while garrus semms like the guy who'd put his pawn out there to set up the queen, then have a bishop take it out before it cn get his pawn and then get them out of harms way.

Your chess analogy is so confusing it's dumb.

Zaeed wouldn't play chess.  He'd be too busy destroying the planet your'e on from orbit.

Miranda seems liek the one who'd actually send in a pawn, have it about to be taken, then have the pawn get upgraded toa rook and take out the queen, while Jacob would just send his queen afte the other and take it out. Shepard says so his.herself on the mission "we don't sacrafice lives to complete a mission, there's always another way. Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob don't throw people away to succeed, they succedd and keep people alive while doing it and to quote garrus "stylishly" aswell.

That makes perfect sense.

[smudboy]

SupidSeep wrote...

Anezay wrote...

Even Jessie died, eventually.

Ow, even Zaed's gun died on him!

Seriously, IMO smudboy is either trolling or he's absolutely clueless about what it takes to be a leader.

I keep asking, and I've gotten a few responses.

[IoCaster]

ADLegend21 wrote...
Zaeed's expaining of his mission was that he was to deal with the capture of the refinery since it's workers were being used for slave labor and how do you deal with slave labor? by freeing the slaves, not killing them to catch up to one man who betrayed you 20 years aog, especially when you knew he would. The suicide mission is about an hours work I'd say and Garrus kept 10 men (the second fire team consits of 8 so Garrus is 2 under his usual body of work so that means he can do more to keep the team alive) Miranda has also led cells of 50 operatives for more than an hours work and besides "live fire excercise for shepard"  at the beginning of the game that's alot better than Zaeed losing an entire squad in a his verrakin mission (which he lost 5 guys) so what makes you think he can lead 8 people? While Zaeed has more experience, Garrus's experience has better quality: hundreds of Geth, Krogan, and Hell three merc bands at the same time with countless freelancers BY HIMSELF!  I'm sorry, but I'm betting that a guy who can stop a small army on his own can vanquish some collectors with 8 highly trained specialist and come out with not even a drop of sweat on a single person.

Stop making sh!t up. That's the most d-bag tactic ever, in the history of **** ever. Zaeed was in charge of that mission, period. Just like every single one of the other squad critters called the shots on theirs.

Miranda said, "Hey we're here to get my sister. If that means flying into the war zone as bait, so be it."

Garrus said, "We're here to kill Sidonis, period."

Samara said, "We're here to stop Morinth, period."

Jack said, "We're here to blow this place up, period."

Thane said, "We're here to stop my son from assassinating the Turian scumbag, period."

Zaeed said, "We're here to kill Vido, period."

Are you detecting a pattern here? These loyalty missions are for the squad member to decide what action they prefer to take. Shepard can actually interfere and decide to muscle in on the process. That's you're prerogative as a player, but that's not required or even appropriate in the eyes of someone like me. It's a legitimate choice for me, as the player, to let my companion call the shots on his/her loyalty mission. Do you deny this?

Now let me ask you to present some evidence that Miranda has actually "led cells of 50 operatives for more than an hours work". Where's this mysterious dialogue that I missed? Where's the evidence presented, in the game, that Miranda has actually accomplished anything other than manage the Lazarus Project? If you even try to throw some iPhone game bullsh!t in here, then stop it before you embarrass yourself. There's no prerequisite for anyone to play the iPhone game before they play ME2. It's either in the game I played or it doesn't mean sh!t to me. Are we clear on that?

As far as Garrus is concerned, I don't have a problem with him leading my 2nd squad. His actions in ME and on Omega are sufficient. Beside the fact that I'm inclined to give an old ME companion the benefit of the doubt.

ADLegend21 wrote...
Yes Zaeed founded the blue suns 20 years ago, got betrayed and VIDO ran the suns for the rest of that 20 year period so that doesn't even count for his leadership experience. Zaeed seems like the kinda guy whod throw his pawns, knights, bishops, and rooks away just to take out his opponents Queen if he were playing chess, while garrus semms like the guy who'd put his pawn out there to set up the queen, then have a bishop take it out before it cn get his pawn and then get them out of harms way. Miranda seems liek the one who'd actually send in a pawn, have it about to be taken, then have the pawn get upgraded toa rook and take out the queen, while Jacob would just send his queen afte the other and take it out. Shepard says so his.herself on the mission "we don't sacrafice lives to complete a mission, there's always another way. Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob don't throw people away to succeed, they succedd and keep people alive while doing it and to quote garrus "stylishly" aswell.

What in the world does this contrived chess analogy have to do with anything? Zaeed has twenty years of experience fighting on almost every possible type of battlefield, against insurmountable odds, with non-acknowledged and/or non-existent logistical support and been successful in staying alive.

Miranda has no existing history that compares to that. If she does, then provide a source and let's get started comparing the two. Give us something to work with other than some imaginary BS that you conjured up to buttress your argument. Where's the proof?

Modifié par IoCaster, 04 août 2010 - 11:36 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Anezay wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Yes Zaeed founded the blue suns 20 years ago, got betrayed and VIDO ran the suns for the rest of that 20 year period so that doesn't even count for his leadership experience. Zaeed seems like the kinda guy whod throw his pawns, knights, bishops, and rooks away just to take out his opponents Queen if he were playing chess, while garrus semms like the guy who'd put his pawn out there to set up the queen, then have a bishop take it out before it cn get his pawn and then get them out of harms way. Miranda seems liek the one who'd actually send in a pawn, have it about to be taken, then have the pawn get upgraded toa rook and take out the queen, while Jacob would just send his queen afte the other and take it out. Shepard says so his.herself on the mission "we don't sacrafice lives to complete a mission, there's always another way. Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob don't throw people away to succeed, they succedd and keep people alive while doing it and to quote garrus "stylishly" aswell.

I'd say that Zaeed would say "screw chess" and shoot the board. Miranda would send her pawns to the death one at a time, cackling all the way. Garrus would play all properly, and therefore, boring, but would kick your ass along the way. And Jacob? Jacob would try to eat the chess pieces or something.

Legend had it right, Jacob would use his big guns by sending the queen out into the fray. It would be a heavy risk...

IoCaster wrote...

What in the world does this contrived chess analogy have to do with anything? Zaeed has twenty years of experience fighting on almost every possible type of battlefield, against insurmountable odds, with non-acknowledged and/or non-existent logistical support and been successful in staying alive.

Miranda has no existing history that compares to that. If she does, then provide a source and let's get started comparing the two. Give us something to work with other than some imaginary BS that you conjured up to buttress your argument. Where's the proof?

Having 20 years of experience doesn't make him any better of a leader though. Yes he can get the job done, and the cost of the lives of his squadmates. Every story that Zaeed tells always end with most if not all of his squad killed and him as the only survivor. The fact that it's a reoccuring theme that if Zaeed is in charge, someone will die, it shouldn't even be a surprise that, wait for, SOMEONE DIES.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 05 août 2010 - 12:46 .

[smudboy]

PrinceLionheart wrote...
Having 20 years of experience doesn't make him any better of a leader though.

Why?

Yes he can get the job done, and the cost of the lives of his squadmates. Every story that Zaeed tells always end with most if not all of his squad killed and him as the only survivor.

Nope.  In one of his stories 5 people die (everyone in his team.)  In his other stories, half, and one dies.

The fact that it's a reoccuring theme that if Zaeed is in charge, someone will die, it shouldn't even be a surprise that, wait for, SOMEONE DIES.

Then why does the tech expert die regardless, and why does everyone survive except Zaeed, when he's put in the leadership role?

[SaltBot]

smudboy wrote...
Why?

I'm only speaking from personal experience here, but I have seen people walk into a new job and on day one they are already a rock star, while some people have been doing the same thing for 20 years and still couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag.  Yes, the people with experience often benefit from that experience, but I've seen nature beat nurture almost every time when it comes to good leaders v. bad ones.

Modifié par SaltBot, 05 août 2010 - 01:53 .

[smudboy]

SaltBot wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Why?

I'm only speaking from personal experience here, but I have seen people walk into a new job and on day one they are already a rock star, while some people have been doing the same thing for 20 years and still couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag.  Yes, the people with experience often benefit from that experience, but I've seen nature beat nurture almost every time when it comes to good leaders v. bad ones.

Although I can understand the idea of "naturals", that is, people with high aptitude toward things, like, social skills, those skills have to be developed in order to be effective.  For example, children competing in sports, math tests, chess tournaments, all exhibit a natural tendency toward certain activities over others.

Before anyone achieves a "masterful" or "experienced" status, the rule of thumb is 10 years.  10 years for Mozart, 10 years for Da Vinci, etc.

So sorry if I don't believe you and your "natural vs. nuture" experiences of less experienced military leaders being better than more experienced ones.

[ADLegend21]

IoCaster wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Zaeed's expaining of his mission was that he was to deal with the capture of the refinery since it's workers were being used for slave labor and how do you deal with slave labor? by freeing the slaves, not killing them to catch up to one man who betrayed you 20 years aog, especially when you knew he would. The suicide mission is about an hours work I'd say and Garrus kept 10 men (the second fire team consits of 8 so Garrus is 2 under his usual body of work so that means he can do more to keep the team alive) Miranda has also led cells of 50 operatives for more than an hours work and besides "live fire excercise for shepard"  at the beginning of the game that's alot better than Zaeed losing an entire squad in a his verrakin mission (which he lost 5 guys) so what makes you think he can lead 8 people? While Zaeed has more experience, Garrus's experience has better quality: hundreds of Geth, Krogan, and Hell three merc bands at the same time with countless freelancers BY HIMSELF!  I'm sorry, but I'm betting that a guy who can stop a small army on his own can vanquish some collectors with 8 highly trained specialist and come out with not even a drop of sweat on a single person.

Stop making sh!t up. That's the most d-bag tactic ever, in the history of **** ever. Zaeed was in charge of that mission, period. Just like every single one of the other squad critters called the shots on theirs.

Miranda said, "Hey we're here to get my sister. If that means flying into the war zone as bait, so be it."

Garrus said, "We're here to kill Sidonis, period."

Samara said, "We're here to stop Morinth, period."

Jack said, "We're here to blow this place up, period."

Thane said, "We're here to stop my son from assassinating the Turian scumbag, period."

Zaeed said, "We're here to kill Vido, period."

Are you detecting a pattern here? These loyalty missions are for the squad member to decide what action they prefer to take. Shepard can actually interfere and decide to muscle in on the process. That's you're prerogative as a player, but that's not required or even appropriate in the eyes of someone like me. It's a legitimate choice for me, as the player, to let my companion call the shots on his/her loyalty mission. Do you deny this?

Now let me ask you to present some evidence that Miranda has actually "led cells of 50 operatives for more than an hours work". Where's this mysterious dialogue that I missed? Where's the evidence presented, in the game, that Miranda has actually accomplished anything other than manage the Lazarus Project? If you even try to throw some iPhone game bullsh!t in here, then stop it before you embarrass yourself. There's no prerequisite for anyone to play the iPhone game before they play ME2. It's either in the game I played or it doesn't mean sh!t to me. Are we clear on that?

As far as Garrus is concerned, I don't have a problem with him leading my 2nd squad. His actions in ME and on Omega are sufficient. Beside the fact that I'm inclined to give an old ME companion the benefit of the doubt.

ADLegend21 wrote...
Yes Zaeed founded the blue suns 20 years ago, got betrayed and VIDO ran the suns for the rest of that 20 year period so that doesn't even count for his leadership experience. Zaeed seems like the kinda guy whod throw his pawns, knights, bishops, and rooks away just to take out his opponents Queen if he were playing chess, while garrus semms like the guy who'd put his pawn out there to set up the queen, then have a bishop take it out before it cn get his pawn and then get them out of harms way. Miranda seems liek the one who'd actually send in a pawn, have it about to be taken, then have the pawn get upgraded toa rook and take out the queen, while Jacob would just send his queen afte the other and take it out. Shepard says so his.herself on the mission "we don't sacrafice lives to complete a mission, there's always another way. Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob don't throw people away to succeed, they succedd and keep people alive while doing it and to quote garrus "stylishly" aswell.

What in the world does this contrived chess analogy have to do with anything? Zaeed has twenty years of experience fighting on almost every possible type of battlefield, against insurmountable odds, with non-acknowledged and/or non-existent logistical support and been successful in staying alive.

Miranda has no existing history that compares to that. If she does, then provide a source and let's get started comparing the two. Give us something to work with other than some imaginary BS that you conjured up to buttress your argument. Where's the proof?

yes Commander shepard agreed to:
Stop Kolyat from killing joram, but has the option to kill joram his.herself
Stop Morinth from continuing, but can actually recruit morinth and kill samara
confront Sidonis, but can spare his life or let him die
agreed to help Jack blow up the teltin place but can have her spare of kill Aresh
agreed to help Miranda's sister escape eclipse mercenaries.

the pattern I see is that while the squadmates give the guidlines, Shepard has final say on EVERYTHING in the mission. Also Shepard agree to FREE the facility from blue suns control, not kill the refinery workers and Vido Santiago. you forget that shepards word is law to his squad and their missions. Shepard is in charge, not Zaeed, not Miranda, Garrus, Tali, samara, Thane, Kasumi, etc. that's the pattern I see.

[SaltBot]

smudboy wrote...

So sorry if I don't believe you and your "natural vs. nuture" experiences of less experienced military leaders being better than more experienced ones.

No apology necessary, though if you had told me at the beginning that you weren't going to take me at my word I'd have been glad to shut up and leave you alone about 4 pages ago. 

[SupidSeep]

I'm not a leader, so I can't guess at what a leader would think. I have an above average talent in, say maths. In the time most people would look at a math problem and consider a solution, I likely would have jumped past and think of things they never considered or are slowly spinning in their minds and arrived at the solution a lot faster than them. And there are people who are really talented in maths and would see what I did as child's play.

A person middling in maths might practise more questions to try to improve himself. With extensive practice (experience) the said person would likely be better. Better than me, maybe, maybe not. He may have seen 10 times the maths problems I've faced, but he could still be mentally 'stuck' solving the math problem the 'slow' way, never seeing the 'fast' way I do it. Experience alone is not always enough, if not matched with talent. I knew a fellow student who is only a fair hand at maths, but practises extensively, and in routine work, he surpassed me easily. Still, now and then there would be something I saw that he did not, but it's rare. So for him, his far greater experience backed with fair talent has more or less superseded my superior talent and limited experience.

Similarly, a soldier may have seen decades of combat and is a grizzled veteran, but is not a leader. A leader thinks ABOVE the level of a soldier. A soldier sees himself, his enemy and considers how best to defeat his enemy. A leader (I'm guessing here) would think not just himself and his enemies, but also his men (not just combat readiness, like each man's abilities/strengths/weaknesses, in which role they would shine, and which role they will crumble), group position (cover, flanking, tactics +++) and likely, the overall goal of the engagement (defeat enemy, holding action, etc.). Likely a lot more than I can guess at, because I know I'm not a leader.

[IoCaster]

ADLegend21 wrote...

yes Commander shepard agreed to:
Stop Kolyat from killing joram, but has the option to kill joram his.herself
Stop Morinth from continuing, but can actually recruit morinth and kill samara
confront Sidonis, but can spare his life or let him die
agreed to help Jack blow up the teltin place but can have her spare of kill Aresh
agreed to help Miranda's sister escape eclipse mercenaries.

the pattern I see is that while the squadmates give the guidlines, Shepard has final say on EVERYTHING in the mission. Also Shepard agree to FREE the facility from blue suns control, not kill the refinery workers and Vido Santiago. you forget that shepards word is law to his squad and their missions. Shepard is in charge, not Zaeed, not Miranda, Garrus, Tali, samara, Thane, Kasumi, etc. that's the pattern I see.

Nope. It's their mission and they're asking Shepard for help. BioWare gives the player the option to impose his/her morality on the squad member. Zaeed is contracted to get rid of the Blue Suns that have taken control of the refinery. It's his contract and Shepard is there for support. If you want to save the refinery workers you can choose to do so, but it's not necessary. If you want to stop Garrus from killing Sidonis or Miranda from killing Niket you can, but it's not necessary. All you're doing is imposing your will on your squad member for whatever reason you've contrived. I personally don't give a sh!t about Niket, Aresh, Sidonis, the refinery workers, etc,..

I'm just there to help my squad member so that I can obtain their loyalty. Nothing more, nothing less. It's their mission and I have no interest in babysitting them or making their choices for them.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

SupidSeep wrote...

Ow, even Zaed's gun died on him!

Seriously, IMO smudboy is either trolling or he's absolutely clueless about what it takes to be a leader.

I keep asking, and I've gotten a few responses.

Zaeed is not a good leader for the mission because of TRUST.  A lack of it that is.  If a team does not TRUST it's leader, they will not perform as well. His background just makes him a hard man for the average "do-gooder" to follow.  Simple. 

However, IN REALITY, Zaeed is a poor team leader because the game writers made it so.  

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 05 août 2010 - 05:40 .

[Thatguy38]

Honestly, I think it was just an oversight on Bioware's part. Since Zaeed was a DLC character, not everyone would have access to him, so he isn't as integral to the plot as say, Garrus or Miranda. Basically, he's just a prop that can shoot really well.