440 réponses à ce sujet

[Throw_this_away]

Thatguy38 wrote...

Honestly, I think it was just an oversight on Bioware's part. Since Zaeed was a DLC character, not everyone would have access to him, so he isn't as integral to the plot as say, Garrus or Miranda. Basically, he's just a prop that can shoot really well.

Not sure about that... Kasumi is DLC and she can be the tech expert. 

Zaeed is just not a leader most people would trust.  He has no lack of skill.  

[tonnactus]

Throw_this_away wrote...


Zaeed is not a good leader for the mission because of TRUST. 

Garrus to Miranda: Half of the team not even trust you.

And he waved his head when miranda suggest to lead the second team.

When looking at the facts in the game itself,all indicates that Miranda is a bad leader. Why bioware should she would
be good at this job is a mystery.

Modifié par tonnactus, 05 août 2010 - 12:43 .

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

SupidSeep wrote...

Ow, even Zaed's gun died on him!

Seriously, IMO smudboy is either trolling or he's absolutely clueless about what it takes to be a leader.

I keep asking, and I've gotten a few responses.

Zaeed is not a good leader for the mission because of TRUST.  A lack of it that is.  If a team does not TRUST it's leader, they will not perform as well. His background just makes him a hard man for the average "do-gooder" to follow.  Simple. 

However, IN REALITY, Zaeed is a poor team leader because the game writers made it so.  

The only people on the team people trust is Shepard (save Miranda-Jacob.)

As IoCaster pointed out, dealing and organizing a bunch of bad asses in a suicide mission is right up Zaeed's alley.

Also, the writers didn't make Zaeed be a poor team leader, the developers did.

Modifié par smudboy, 05 août 2010 - 11:49 .

[CC-Tron]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

If you want a realistic logical suicide mission without breaking immersion, choose Thane as the vent, Zaeed as both leaders, Samara as the bubble. It doesn't get you the flashy achievement, but it feels right.

If I am reading correctly, you are wondering why everyone won't survive if you put Zaeed as the leader. It should be self-explanatory. Zaeed does work as a fireteam leader... You just lose a person. He always loses people, so it shouldn't be a shock.

As for the diversion team? Leaders get shot too. Makes it that much more meaningful...


edit: Your question would make more sense if you failed the mission if you chose him. You don't... One member dies. In terms of the situation, that is highly successful. Try not to metagame.

I intentionally play the suicide mission in a way that causes 4 casualties. It makes better drama and it seems a bit rediculous that every one survives.  I always choose Tali to lead the distraction team (she has a good death scene), Unloyal Samara for the biotic bubble (Kasumi gets taken by the swarms), Unloyal Samara and unloyal Miranda for the final boss fight. These 4 were chosen based on how often I use them (almost never).

Modifié par CC-Tron, 05 août 2010 - 04:04 .

[Raxxman]

Okay folks, lets get some things straight.



Being a good soldier and good team leader are two seperate, but related field. You need to understand everybodys strenghts and weaknesess and coordinate to maximise effectiveness. Shepard can be a good or bad team leader depending on your play style. It's about putting the best guy for the job.



For instance, when playing Alien Swarm with my friends, theirs this one guy I will not let be the pointman, He's a great shot but he doesn't look behind him, he'll just blaze off leaving the rest of us behind and get hammered, every time. If however you stick him at the back he does an amazing job, sticks with the team. If I'm rocking medic, the escort can't be our best shot. He gets sidetracked and distracted and leaves me to fend for myself. Now I'm not saying I rock up as the best leader in the history of ever, but if they do as I say, they hate it because I shout at them, but we get through with everyone alive. When they decide to do their own thing, we usually end up dead.



As for Zaeed, he was one part of a two part team that created the blue suns and turned them into the best merc group (or one of the top 3 at least) in the galaxy. His role was team leader there. Why they turned on him is simple. They're Mercs, they work for money, who had the purse strings? Zaeed or Vido? Popularity contest are for 16 year old girls.



Simply put the evidence suggests that Zaeed is a great team leader, pulling off countless suicide missions as team leader. Sure he lost men, but Shepard lost a man in ME1, and you can potentiually loose nearly your entire team in ME2.



As for Samara, I feel the difference here is she isn't a proven squad leader, hardcore fighter, yeah, very very tough, but she works alone, same with Thane.



Jacob I wouldn't pick as a squad leader, he strikes me as a great solider, will do what he's told and keep stuck in, but he never really gave off the command vibe to me. Merranda is clearly a leader, but a combat leader? Well she remains cool under pressure, knows the squad better than they know themselves, as has been previously commented, the only thing is if people trust her. However you would hope that the people under her charge remain proffessional enough to put aside personal differences while assaulting an alien starbase filled with thousands of very nasty, very hostile bees.

[Peridian]

Perhaps people don't trust Miranda to lead the fire team especially since she said "I'll lead the second fire team" (or something along those lines), but they do trust Shepard. So when Shepard agrees to give the job to Miranda, they shut up and defer to Shepards judgment.

Modifié par Peridian, 05 août 2010 - 02:24 .

[tonnactus]

Peridian wrote...

Perhaps people don't trust Miranda to lead the fire team especially since she said "I'll lead the second fire team" (or something along those lines), but they do trust Shepard.

So they could trust everyone else,including zaeed. Where miranda prooved any combat competence in the story?
Even the lazarus project was near to became a disaster.(dont claim that miranda guided shepardt/most of the time
shepardt and jacob have to fight their way on their own)

Modifié par tonnactus, 05 août 2010 - 02:30 .

[smudboy]

Raxxman wrote...

Okay folks, lets get some things straight.

Being a good soldier and good team leader are two seperate, but related field. You need to understand everybodys strenghts and weaknesess and coordinate to maximise effectiveness. Shepard can be a good or bad team leader depending on your play style. It's about putting the best guy for the job.

So how do we argue anyone can be a good team leader if they don't know everyone's strenghts or weaknesses?  Kasumi, Zaeed, Joker and Kelly are the only ones that talk about the other crew mates.  In fact, Zaeed is the one who makes comments on how Joker handles himself in his situation, the kind of powers Jack has and can be used for, how you dealt with a thresher maw.

Garrus?  Jacob?  Miranda?

For instance, when playing Alien Swarm with my friends, theirs this one guy I will not let be the pointman, He's a great shot but he doesn't look behind him, he'll just blaze off leaving the rest of us behind and get hammered, every time. If however you stick him at the back he does an amazing job, sticks with the team. If I'm rocking medic, the escort can't be our best shot. He gets sidetracked and distracted and leaves me to fend for myself. Now I'm not saying I rock up as the best leader in the history of ever, but if they do as I say, they hate it because I shout at them, but we get through with everyone alive. When they decide to do their own thing, we usually end up dead.

I know this is just your example, so that's fine.  But, what if that guy has been playing that game for 20 years?  Do you think he'd pick up a few tactics, play a few different roles, etc?

As for Zaeed, he was one part of a two part team that created the blue suns and turned them into the best merc group (or one of the top 3 at least) in the galaxy. His role was team leader there. Why they turned on him is simple. They're Mercs, they work for money, who had the purse strings? Zaeed or Vido? Popularity contest are for 16 year old girls.

Exactly.

Simply put the evidence suggests that Zaeed is a great team leader, pulling off countless suicide missions as team leader. Sure he lost men, but Shepard lost a man in ME1, and you can potentiually loose nearly your entire team in ME2.

The illogic of the results of the suicide mission, based on the roles you choose, pretty much tells us the developers either couldn't create situations that made sense, all because of some contrived loyalty stat.

As for Samara, I feel the difference here is she isn't a proven squad leader, hardcore fighter, yeah, very very tough, but she works alone, same with Thane.

And what your friend played your game for...1000 years?

In most respects, I find your analysis accurate.

[Raxxman]

Thing is, she doesn't panic under fire. And she knows the strenght of each character in the team.



As a fireteam leader they're two important traits.

[Raxxman]

smudboy wrote...

So how do we argue anyone can be a good team leader if they don't know everyone's strenghts or weaknesses?  Kasumi, Zaeed, Joker and Kelly are the only ones that talk about the other crew mates.  In fact, Zaeed is the one who makes comments on how Joker handles himself in his situation, the kind of powers Jack has and can be used for, how you dealt with a thresher maw.

Garrus?  Jacob?  Miranda?

Yeah, I wasn't dissing Zaeed here, I was just mearly setting out the critieria I would say are fair to judge leadership abilities.

I know this is just your example, so that's fine.  But, what if that guy has been playing that game for 20 years?  Do you think he'd pick up a few tactics, play a few different roles, etc?

Things I've been playing games with these guys for nearly 15 years now. I know their gaming personalities and skill sets. The guy who charges ahead, does so in every game, so it's best not have him lead. The guy who gets distracted does so everygame so never leave him to guard something important. Sure with training we could iron those issues out, but we're here to have fun largely. We can do any role, but if it was life and death, it just makes sense to put the player in his best position. This is similar to sport, you wouldn't put the best striker in the world in the leftback position if you desperately needed a goal. It's just common sense. And the last part was to basically show that if we run as a team of individuals we generally end up dead, showing that we do actually need leadership of a sort to get us through the game. Anyhow don't read too much to it.

Exactly.

Nuff said.

As for Samara, I feel the difference here is she isn't a proven squad leader, hardcore fighter, yeah, very very tough, but she works alone, same with Thane.

And what your friend played your game for...1000 years?

I'd expect him to be very good at it. But if he played it solo for 1000 years I wouldn't expect him to play as a team player, infact I'd expect him to be the one who steps out of line most as he'd be so used to doing it his way without help.

Again I'm not saying Samara might be a great leader, she certainly has battlefield experience. However compared to Zaeed, she clearly works alone a lot more than he does. Thing is, there's no real reason to assume she's a bad leader, but again theirs not a lot of reason to expect that she's a great one either. She never speaks of commanding forces. Another worry would be her forgetting that, while she has 1000's of years of experiance, the people surrounding don't match her combat ability.

Per example, Maradona might well of been the greatest player to ever kick a ball around. Alex Ferguson by all accounts was fairly terrible defender, and Jose Mourinho never played the game proffessionally. This doesn't mean that Maradona is automatically the better manager. In respect, I'm not really disagreeing, just saying that there's more evidence that Zaeed is good squad leader than there is for Samara.

In most respects, I find your analysis accurate.

Ta.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Just a slight correction to Raxxman's earlier statement: Shepard actually lost two men in ME1; Jenkins and Kaidan/Ashley.

[Fiery Phoenix]

tonnactus wrote...

Peridian wrote...

Perhaps people don't trust Miranda to lead the fire team especially since she said "I'll lead the second fire team" (or something along those lines), but they do trust Shepard.

So they could trust everyone else,including zaeed. Where miranda prooved any combat competence in the story?
Even the lazarus project was near to became a disaster.(dont claim that miranda guided shepardt/most of the time
shepardt and jacob have to fight their way on their own)

I have to admit, there ARE some inconsistencies to all this.

[SupidSeep]

tonnactus wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

Zaeed is not a good leader for the mission because of TRUST. 

Garrus to Miranda: Half of the team not even trust you.

And he waved his head when miranda suggest to lead the second team.

When did Garrus EVER openly question Miranda's ability to lead?

You said he shook his head as a negative response to Miranda's offer to lead.  However, he shook his head as Jack derogatively called Miranda a 'cheerleader'.  I would say Garrus (military trained as a Turian to follow orders) shook his head as a negative response to Jack's comment, which reeks of insolence and possibly insubordination, which most professional soldiers would look down upon.

If Shepard chooses Garrus to lead, Miranda doesn't argue the point, acknowledging that Garrus "knows what he's doing."

Rebutted by smudboy

I would admit that I'm surprised Jacob was considered a good squadleader however, as his dossier didn't suggest it.  Unless one suggests that he personally make it a duty to get to know and bond with individual members, earning their trust in the process (Jacob was the guy to ask about the combat readiness of the team).

Modifié par SupidSeep, 05 août 2010 - 06:01 .

[SupidSeep]

Raxxman wrote...

Now I'm not saying I rock up as the best leader in the history of ever, but if they do as I say, they hate it because I shout at them, but we get through with everyone alive. When they decide to do their own thing, we usually end up dead.

You just gave a example that a proper leader works to keep his team together. 

Simply put the evidence suggests that Zaeed is a great team leader, pulling off countless suicide missions as team leader. Sure he lost men, but Shepard lost a man in ME1, and you can potentiually loose nearly your entire team in ME2.

Shepard's 2 losses were plot-driven - there is nothing that can be done to save them, he/she can only select who to save at the end.

And I will like to bring back a point what I feel serves as proof that Garrus is a good leader while Zaeed isn't.

Garrus was fighting the gangs of Omega for less than 2 years.  The job (if one calls its that) benefits were horrible, poor pay, marked for death, blah blah blah.  But Garrus showed he knew what he was doing, and he drew recruits to his fold, motivated not by profit but drawn to the same cause and his ability to get things done.

Under Garrus, his team kicked butt across Omega and made 3 gangs mad at them.  To destroy Garrus' team, the gangs had to cooere Sidonis to lure Garrus away so that the team was left weak without him around to lead them, showing how crucial his leadership was to their survival and that even his ENEMIES acknowledged his leadership skills (they realised they had no way to crush his team while he led them).  And Garrus likely commanded their loyalty - the wife of one team member proclaimed her husband was proud to serve under Garrus.

After splitting with the Blue Suns, Zaeed was around for 20 years.  Did her ever
1) command the loyalty of a group of soldiers (he was given command of hired guns paid by the hirer, but did troops follow him of their own will?)
2) consistantly keep the group alive while they served under him?
3) use the group to deadly effect that drew attention of others.
All accounts show he was a badass soldier, but no evidence of any leadership skills.  Zaeed shows himself more of a lone wolf.

Garrus did in less that 2 years what Zaeed didn't in 20 years.  If Zaeed had leadership skills, I bet he would have easily formed a NEW merc group and hunted Vido down long ago.  Vido was 1 gang leader and commanded 1 gang; Garrus had his team ****** off 3 gangs and earned the personal vendetta of its 3 leaders (Shepard can hear from them first-hand how much they hated Arch-Angel)!  You do the comparison.

[smudboy]

SupidSeep wrote...

When did Garrus EVER openly question Miranda's ability to lead?

You said he shook his head as a negative response to Miranda's offer to lead.  However, he shook his head as Jack derogatively called Miranda a 'cheerleader'.  I would say Garrus (military trained as a Turian to follow orders) shook his head as a negative response to Jack's comment, which reeks of insolence and possibly insubordination, which most professional soldiers would look down upon.

If Shepard chooses Garrus to lead, Miranda doesn't argue the point, acknowledging that Garrus "knows what he's doing."

I would admit that I'm surprised Jacob was considered a good squadleader however, as his dossier didn't suggest it.  Unless one suggests that he personally make it a duty to get to know and bond with individual members, earning their trust in the process (Jacob was the guy to ask about the combat readiness of the team).

You're wrong.

If Jack is dead, Garrus in her place says ""I don't want you leading the second team! Half of us don't even trust you."

Miranda says the exact same thing if you choose Garrus or Zaeed.

As for Samara...

Oh hell just watch my videos.

[SupidSeep]

smudboy wrote...



You're wrong.

If Jack is dead, Garrus in her place says ""I don't want you leading the second team! Half of us don't even trust you."

Miranda says the exact same thing if you choose Garrus or Zaeed.

Right, I stand corrected.

I never knew because from my very first playthrough I kept my FULL team alive without checking for hints on what to do, no one died under my Shepard's command.

Modifié par SupidSeep, 05 août 2010 - 05:57 .

[Raxxman]

SupidSeep wrote...

Shepard's 2 losses were plot-driven - there is nothing that can be done to save them, he/she can only select who to save at the end.

come on, all of Zaeeds losses are plot driven (if you're going to play that game).

And I will like to bring back a point what I feel serves as proof that Garrus is a good leader while Zaeed isn't.

Just going to quip in, I never said Garrus isn't a good leader, they both can be good leaders.

Garrus was fighting the gangs of Omega for less than 2 years.  The job (if one calls its that) benefits were horrible, poor pay, marked for death, blah blah blah.  But Garrus showed he knew what he was doing, and he drew recruits to his fold, motivated not by profit but drawn to the same cause and his ability to get things done.

Under Garrus, his team kicked butt across Omega and made 3 gangs mad at them.  To destroy Garrus' team, the gangs had to cooere Sidonis to lure Garrus away so that the team was left weak without him around to lead them, showing how crucial his leadership was to their survival and that even his ENEMIES acknowledged his leadership skills (they realised they had no way to crush his team while he led them).  And Garrus likely commanded their loyalty - the wife of one team member proclaimed her husband was proud to serve under Garrus.

You're definining loyalty of his members. That's fine, but being loved doesn't immediately equal a tactical accumen to lead in a combat situation. You don't need to be loved in command, just respected. Zaeed clearly commands a huge amount of respect, TIM brings him into the fold on the mission because he's known as the best merc in the galaxy.

Loyalty is fairly irrelivent in this, nobody is on the Normandy because of Garrus or Zaeed, they hold no specific loyalty to either. Just because Garrus was able to build and lead a squad of people loyal to him doesn't suddenly mean he can command randoms with increadible efficency. Garrus also withdraws inside a shell while on the Normandy 2, heck he hardly speaks to Shepard throughout the whole game.

After splitting with the Blue Suns, Zaeed was around for 20 years.  Did her ever
1) command the loyalty of a group of soldiers (he was given command of hired guns paid by the hirer, but did troops follow him of their own will?)
2) consistantly keep the group alive while they served under him?
3) use the group to deadly effect that drew attention of others.
All accounts show he was a badass soldier, but no evidence of any leadership skills.  Zaeed shows himself more of a lone wolf.

Zaeed pulled off the impossible a suicide mission on a Turian warship. Garrus took on gangs, disorganised thugs who took two years to get clued in and pull their fingers out, whereby he did get beaten down fairly heavily.

Garrus did in less that 2 years what Zaeed didn't in 20 years.  If Zaeed had leadership skills, I bet he would have easily formed a NEW merc group and hunted Vido down long ago.  Vido was 1 gang leader and commanded 1 gang; Garrus had his team ****** off 3 gangs and earned the personal vendetta of its 3 leaders (Shepard can hear from them first-hand how much they hated Arch-Angel)!  You do the comparison.

Leaders? na, they're just punk Lieutenants with delusions of grandeure. Section commanders at best, but they don't run the whole show. Garrus pissed off a subsection of vast gangs, and ultimately acheived very little. Zaeeds accomplishment can be seen throughout the galaxy, the blue suns are everywhere.

Zaeed had reasons why he didn't form a new band merc band, but the fact still remains that being the combat leader of the blue suns he was able to propel them up to one of the top 3 merc bands in the galaxy. You just don't get that far in life by sucking at your job.

[ADLegend21]

IoCaster wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

yes Commander shepard agreed to:
Stop Kolyat from killing joram, but has the option to kill joram his.herself
Stop Morinth from continuing, but can actually recruit morinth and kill samara
confront Sidonis, but can spare his life or let him die
agreed to help Jack blow up the teltin place but can have her spare of kill Aresh
agreed to help Miranda's sister escape eclipse mercenaries.

the pattern I see is that while the squadmates give the guidlines, Shepard has final say on EVERYTHING in the mission. Also Shepard agree to FREE the facility from blue suns control, not kill the refinery workers and Vido Santiago. you forget that shepards word is law to his squad and their missions. Shepard is in charge, not Zaeed, not Miranda, Garrus, Tali, samara, Thane, Kasumi, etc. that's the pattern I see.

Nope. It's their mission and they're asking Shepard for help. BioWare gives the player the option to impose his/her morality on the squad member. Zaeed is contracted to get rid of the Blue Suns that have taken control of the refinery. It's his contract and Shepard is there for support. If you want to save the refinery workers you can choose to do so, but it's not necessary. If you want to stop Garrus from killing Sidonis or Miranda from killing Niket you can, but it's not necessary. All you're doing is imposing your will on your squad member for whatever reason you've contrived. I personally don't give a sh!t about Niket, Aresh, Sidonis, the refinery workers, etc,..

I'm just there to help my squad member so that I can obtain their loyalty. Nothing more, nothing less. It's their mission and I have no interest in babysitting them or making their choices for them.

you can dance aroud it if you want, but the fact of the matter is that Zaeed doens't care if anyone but him lives or dies, that's why he's not a good fire team leader, because he can't keep people alive or he throws people away to ensure his survival Hell we might as well have recruited Vido since they're basically the same person. Why would you follow someone who has a track record of having heavy losses  on multiple missions?

[Raxxman]

ADLegend21 wrote...

you can dance aroud it if you want, but the fact of the matter is that Zaeed doens't care if anyone but him lives or dies, that's why he's not a good fire team leader, because he can't keep people alive or he throws people away to ensure his survival Hell we might as well have recruited Vido since they're basically the same person. Why would you follow someone who has a track record of having heavy losses  on multiple missions?

Vido wasn't the military muscle of the outfit. He was the bean counter and a coward. You'd follow a yellow bellied administrator over a combat veteren into a battle?

Good luck with that.

[ADLegend21]

Raxxman wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

you can dance aroud it if you want, but the fact of the matter is that Zaeed doens't care if anyone but him lives or dies, that's why he's not a good fire team leader, because he can't keep people alive or he throws people away to ensure his survival Hell we might as well have recruited Vido since they're basically the same person. Why would you follow someone who has a track record of having heavy losses  on multiple missions?

Vido wasn't the military muscle of the outfit. He was the bean counter and a coward. You'd follow a yellow bellied administrator over a combat veteren into a battle?

Good luck with that.

never said I'd follow vido, but it seems Brains are better than Brawn in this case since Zaeed got the short oend of the stick and bullet in the head, so much for him being a badass when he chases some guy for 20 years and then probably doesn't succedd because he gets too caught up in the mission. I guess Is houldn't worry on him leading my fire team because I'm not recruiting him until AFTER Ic omplete it so I can leave him to die on Zorya like the heartless waste of space and dialogue he is.

personal opinion aside, I can see why Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob are great fire team leaders and why Zaeed isn't, as I've said before, they know how to keep people alive and get the job done, which is why no one dies under their command, especially Miranda's since she was labeled as "cerberus leader" in ME: Galaxy.

[IoCaster]

ADLegend21 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Nope. It's their mission and they're asking Shepard for help. BioWare gives the player the option to impose his/her morality on the squad member. Zaeed is contracted to get rid of the Blue Suns that have taken control of the refinery. It's his contract and Shepard is there for support. If you want to save the refinery workers you can choose to do so, but it's not necessary. If you want to stop Garrus from killing Sidonis or Miranda from killing Niket you can, but it's not necessary. All you're doing is imposing your will on your squad member for whatever reason you've contrived. I personally don't give a sh!t about Niket, Aresh, Sidonis, the refinery workers, etc,..

I'm just there to help my squad member so that I can obtain their loyalty. Nothing more, nothing less. It's their mission and I have no interest in babysitting them or making their choices for them.

you can dance aroud it if you want, but the fact of the matter is that Zaeed doens't care if anyone but him lives or dies, that's why he's not a good fire team leader, because he can't keep people alive or he throws people away to ensure his survival Hell we might as well have recruited Vido since they're basically the same person. Why would you follow someone who has a track record of having heavy losses  on multiple missions?

That's kind of an odd reply to my quoted comment. How exactly am I dancing around?

[ADLegend21]

IoCaster wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Nope. It's their mission and they're asking Shepard for help. BioWare gives the player the option to impose his/her morality on the squad member. Zaeed is contracted to get rid of the Blue Suns that have taken control of the refinery. It's his contract and Shepard is there for support. If you want to save the refinery workers you can choose to do so, but it's not necessary. If you want to stop Garrus from killing Sidonis or Miranda from killing Niket you can, but it's not necessary. All you're doing is imposing your will on your squad member for whatever reason you've contrived. I personally don't give a sh!t about Niket, Aresh, Sidonis, the refinery workers, etc,..

I'm just there to help my squad member so that I can obtain their loyalty. Nothing more, nothing less. It's their mission and I have no interest in babysitting them or making their choices for them.

you can dance aroud it if you want, but the fact of the matter is that Zaeed doens't care if anyone but him lives or dies, that's why he's not a good fire team leader, because he can't keep people alive or he throws people away to ensure his survival Hell we might as well have recruited Vido since they're basically the same person. Why would you follow someone who has a track record of having heavy losses  on multiple missions?

That's kind of an odd reply to my quoted comment. How exactly am I dancing around?

avoiding the point that zaeed cna't complete a mission without most of his squad dying, which is why he isn't a good fire team leader.

[IoCaster]

ADLegend21 wrote...

personal opinion aside, I can see why Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob are great fire team leaders and why Zaeed isn't, as I've said before, they know how to keep people alive and get the job done, which is why no one dies under their command, especially Miranda's since she was labeled as "cerberus leader" in ME: Galaxy.

ADLegend21 wrote...personal opinion aside

???

What specific details about her exploits as a combat leader are present in dialogue or codex entry?

Are you saying that because her passive talent is Cerberus Leader, that's sufficient proof? How about Zaeed and his passive talent as a Mercenary Warlord?

Main Entry: war·lord
Pronunciation: \\ˈwȯr-ˌlȯrd\\
Function: noun
Date: 1856

1 : a supreme military leader
2 : a military commander exercising civil power by force usually in a limited area

I can understand that you're fully invested in the story to the extent that you believe that Miranda is a great leader, but there's no evidence presented in the game to back it up.

Garrus has credibility - Former Turian military, C-Sec officer and leader of mercs on Omega. This information is available in the game.

Jacob has some history as an Alliance officer, fought on Eden Prime and served as a Corsair. This information is available in the game.

Apparently the writers forgot to give us the same type of background information about Miranda. All we've got is "Cerberus Leader". That may be sufficient proof for you, but I'm definitely underwhelmed.

[IoCaster]

ADLegend21 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Nope. It's their mission and they're asking Shepard for help. BioWare gives the player the option to impose his/her morality on the squad member. Zaeed is contracted to get rid of the Blue Suns that have taken control of the refinery. It's his contract and Shepard is there for support. If you want to save the refinery workers you can choose to do so, but it's not necessary. If you want to stop Garrus from killing Sidonis or Miranda from killing Niket you can, but it's not necessary. All you're doing is imposing your will on your squad member for whatever reason you've contrived. I personally don't give a sh!t about Niket, Aresh, Sidonis, the refinery workers, etc,..

I'm just there to help my squad member so that I can obtain their loyalty. Nothing more, nothing less. It's their mission and I have no interest in babysitting them or making their choices for them.

you can dance aroud it if you want, but the fact of the matter is that Zaeed doens't care if anyone but him lives or dies, that's why he's not a good fire team leader, because he can't keep people alive or he throws people away to ensure his survival Hell we might as well have recruited Vido since they're basically the same person. Why would you follow someone who has a track record of having heavy losses  on multiple missions?

That's kind of an odd reply to my quoted comment. How exactly am I dancing around?

avoiding the point that zaeed cna't complete a mission without most of his squad dying, which is why he isn't a good fire team leader.

Why do you keep making this crap up? You've got less than a dozen anecdotes, spanning a twenty year career. In only one of those anecdotes was he the sole survivor of a suicide mission.

According to Zaeed, his first "suicide mission" was to lead a squad of five other men to take down a turian frigate, the Verrikan, from the inside, their equipment being whatever they brought themselves. Zaeed says that the mission was a success, though every other member in the squad died, he himself being the only survivor. He notes it was all worth it just to watch the ship crash down to the planet's surface. - Six men to infiltrate and take down a warship. It's a wonder they succeeded and anyone made it out of there alive.

Omega, at the bar in Afterlife Club: Zaeed will recall how one of his friends was once killed in a bar fight. He believes that all bars are dangerous and violent places. - Not a combat mission. Bar brawl.

Citadel, at Rodam Expeditions. After seeing a big gun exhibited in the shop, Zaeed will recall how he and a group of mercenaries once worked to take down a krogan armed with a weapon like this one. The krogan managed to kill most of the mercenaries, leading Zaeed to admire this gun. - No detail about whether he was leading the squad or if it was just a loose association of mercs with the same goal. Sounds like a free for all.

Zaeed tells the Commander that he and a group of mercenaries once had to take out a gun nest. One group member had the "crazy idea" of kidnapping a local girl, strapping grenades to her and letting her seduce the gun nest crew. She got in, the shooting stopped, but the grenades never went off. Zaeed's group managed to sneak past, but they never learned what had happened to the girl. - No casualties listed

Not much there to claim that over the course of twenty years as a merc he "can't complete a mission without most of his squad dying".

Now where are the anecdotes that prove Miranda is a great combat leader? That's your claim isn't it?

ADLegend21 wrote...
I can see why Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob are great fire team leaders and why Zaeed isn't, as I've said before, they know how to keep people alive and get the job done, which is why no one dies under their command, especially Miranda's since she was labeled as "cerberus leader"

Where's the proof?

ADLegend21 wrote...
Garrus...and Jacob are great fire team leaders...which is why no one dies under their command

Making stuff up again? How many men did Garrus lose? Do you know if Jacob lost any men on Eden Prime? Did he lose any men with the Corsairs?

EDIT: Here's an added bonus question. How many men did Miranda lose on Lazarus station? You could even hold Jacob accountable for some of the losses, since he was in charge of security. If you look up "incompetence" in the galactic dictionary you'll find a picture of the Cerberus logo.

Modifié par IoCaster, 05 août 2010 - 10:07 .

[ADLegend21]

not Quoting wall of text:



Miranda's labeled cerberus leader in Mass effect Galaxy, the same game where JACOB keeps the council alive. Garru's men died because Sidonis revealed the teams secrets after the group remained in tact for nearly 2 years under Garrus's command with countless successful operations against three mercenary companies, nothing mad eup about that. garrus kept 11 people alive for years while battling mercenary companies with vastly supeiror numbers resources and tech, and then held off those same mercenary bands and any freelancers they had BY HIMSELF! it was basically 1 vs 100 and the 1 was winning, if that doesn't YELL leadership I don't know what the hell does. zaeed on the other hand loses men, sacrafics lives, and lets his personal feelings get in the way of the mission being completed. facce it mister "be big guddam hero's" isn't leadership Material, while Miranda (who led the lazerus cell and X amount of other Cerberus operation which are led by a single operator) Garrus and Jacob (who pulled a Shepard and saved the damn council without them knowing it!) do because they get the job done and keep their people alive.