tonnactus wrote...
Throw_this_away wrote...
Zaeed is not a good leader for the mission because of TRUST.
Garrus to Miranda: Half of the team not even trust you.
And he waved his head when miranda suggest to lead the second team.
When looking at the facts in the game itself,all indicates that Miranda is a bad leader. Why bioware should she would
be good at this job is a mystery.
ADLegend21 wrote...
not Quoting wall of text:
Miranda's labeled cerberus leader in Mass effect Galaxy, the same game where JACOB keeps the council alive. Garru's men died because Sidonis revealed the teams secrets after the group remained in tact for nearly 2 years under Garrus's command with countless successful operations against three mercenary companies, nothing mad eup about that. garrus kept 11 people alive for years while battling mercenary companies with vastly supeiror numbers resources and tech, and then held off those same mercenary bands and any freelancers they had BY HIMSELF! it was basically 1 vs 100 and the 1 was winning, if that doesn't YELL leadership I don't know what the hell does. zaeed on the other hand loses men, sacrafics lives, and lets his personal feelings get in the way of the mission being completed. facce it mister "be big guddam hero's" isn't leadership Material, while Miranda (who led the lazerus cell and X amount of other Cerberus operation which are led by a single operator) Garrus and Jacob (who pulled a Shepard and saved the damn council without them knowing it!) do because they get the job done and keep their people alive.
Iphone game must mean something since Jacob mentions it as his proudest achievement. Miranda says "Cerberus never tells me anyhting is impossible, they jsut give me resources and say get it done" she doesn't give a specific number of missions but it must be alot since she's been in cerberus her entire adult life (18+) those weren't garrus's men, they were hostages who were cut up and sick because of Dr. Saleon, garrus hadn't beenin a position of leadership, but he was willing to RISK a few lives, they weren't automatically going to die, but their lives were at stake and it was just to DISABLE the ship, not destroy it. Garrus lost his team, we know that, but not after their nearly 2 year run on Omega running seamless operations and frustrating every merc band that set foot on Omega to no end, he even had a batarian on his squad and you know how unruly they can be. I claimed garrus kept one team alive thorugh several missions, and he did, no disputing that. (jut chose Garrus as my second fire team leader on my insanity run, and I'm going to see everyone that isn't on my personal squad on the other side of those doors because Garrus will know how to keep them alive and do it in style.IoCaster wrote...
ADLegend21 wrote...
not Quoting wall of text:
Miranda's labeled cerberus leader in Mass effect Galaxy, the same game where JACOB keeps the council alive. Garru's men died because Sidonis revealed the teams secrets after the group remained in tact for nearly 2 years under Garrus's command with countless successful operations against three mercenary companies, nothing mad eup about that. garrus kept 11 people alive for years while battling mercenary companies with vastly supeiror numbers resources and tech, and then held off those same mercenary bands and any freelancers they had BY HIMSELF! it was basically 1 vs 100 and the 1 was winning, if that doesn't YELL leadership I don't know what the hell does. zaeed on the other hand loses men, sacrafics lives, and lets his personal feelings get in the way of the mission being completed. facce it mister "be big guddam hero's" isn't leadership Material, while Miranda (who led the lazerus cell and X amount of other Cerberus operation which are led by a single operator) Garrus and Jacob (who pulled a Shepard and saved the damn council without them knowing it!) do because they get the job done and keep their people alive.
What does an iPhone game have to do with ME2?
Let me answer that for you. Absolutely nothing!
You claimed that Garrus hasn't lost any men, but you were wrong. He's a hot head with a history of going renegade from ME to ME2. He was willing to cause civilian casualties on the Citadel in order to shoot down Dr.Saleon's ship in ME.
What are these "X" amount of other Cerberus operations that Miranda was in charge of. Would you be kind enough to share some details? Were they combat operations? Were they the typical Cerberus terrorist atrocities? Did they fail spectacularly like most of their operations?
2342 wrote...
While I was reading a similar thread to this one of the moderators was kind enough to point out that if you talk to Zaeed about his past missions he's lead and you'll realize most of those missions end with Zaeed being the only survivor. I'm just putting that out there.
THANK YOU!2342 wrote...
While I was reading a similar thread to this one of the moderators was kind enough to point out that if you talk to Zaeed about his past missions he's lead and you'll realize most of those missions end with Zaeed being the only survivor. I'm just putting that out there.
Throw_this_away wrote...
and we will never know that only 20% of the team trust Zaeed.
This argument is silly.
the developers said someone will say they don't trust miranda to throw the player off from one of the sure fire leaders hell if no one's left Miranda might say she doesn't trust herself xDtonnactus wrote...
Throw_this_away wrote...
and we will never know that only 20% of the team trust Zaeed.
This argument is silly.
We will because otherwise someone of the team would mention it like in the case of miranda.
ADLegend21 wrote...
would mention it like in the case of miranda.
the developers said someone will say they don't trust miranda to throw the player off from one of the sure fire leaders hell if no one's left Miranda might say she doesn't trust herself xD
ADLegend21 wrote...
Iphone game must mean something since Jacob mentions it as his proudest achievement. Miranda says "Cerberus never tells me anyhting is impossible, they jsut give me resources and say get it done" she doesn't give a specific number of missions but it must be alot since she's been in cerberus her entire adult life (18+) those weren't garrus's men, they were hostages who were cut up and sick because of Dr. Saleon, garrus hadn't beenin a position of leadership, but he was willing to RISK a few lives, they weren't automatically going to die, but their lives were at stake and it was just to DISABLE the ship, not destroy it. Garrus lost his team, we know that, but not after their nearly 2 year run on Omega running seamless operations and frustrating every merc band that set foot on Omega to no end, he even had a batarian on his squad and you know how unruly they can be. I claimed garrus kept one team alive thorugh several missions, and he did, no disputing that. (jut chose Garrus as my second fire team leader on my insanity run, and I'm going to see everyone that isn't on my personal squad on the other side of those doors because Garrus will know how to keep them alive and do it in style.IoCaster wrote...
ADLegend21 wrote...
not Quoting wall of text:
Miranda's labeled cerberus leader in Mass effect Galaxy, the same game where JACOB keeps the council alive. Garru's men died because Sidonis revealed the teams secrets after the group remained in tact for nearly 2 years under Garrus's command with countless successful operations against three mercenary companies, nothing mad eup about that. garrus kept 11 people alive for years while battling mercenary companies with vastly supeiror numbers resources and tech, and then held off those same mercenary bands and any freelancers they had BY HIMSELF! it was basically 1 vs 100 and the 1 was winning, if that doesn't YELL leadership I don't know what the hell does. zaeed on the other hand loses men, sacrafics lives, and lets his personal feelings get in the way of the mission being completed. facce it mister "be big guddam hero's" isn't leadership Material, while Miranda (who led the lazerus cell and X amount of other Cerberus operation which are led by a single operator) Garrus and Jacob (who pulled a Shepard and saved the damn council without them knowing it!) do because they get the job done and keep their people alive.
What does an iPhone game have to do with ME2?
Let me answer that for you. Absolutely nothing!
You claimed that Garrus hasn't lost any men, but you were wrong. He's a hot head with a history of going renegade from ME to ME2. He was willing to cause civilian casualties on the Citadel in order to shoot down Dr.Saleon's ship in ME.
What are these "X" amount of other Cerberus operations that Miranda was in charge of. Would you be kind enough to share some details? Were they combat operations? Were they the typical Cerberus terrorist atrocities? Did they fail spectacularly like most of their operations?
Raxxman wrote...
2342 wrote...
While I was reading a similar thread to this one of the moderators was kind enough to point out that if you talk to Zaeed about his past missions he's lead and you'll realize most of those missions end with Zaeed being the only survivor. I'm just putting that out there.
Which is fairly meaningless as he's the one who dies in the 2nd fire team if he leads it.
Goes against his entire 'everyone else dies' backstory.
Modifié par IoCaster, 06 août 2010 - 12:02 .
ADLegend21 wrote...
Stop saying i claim they don't lose soldiers when it's obvious the Lazeruz cell workers were eliminated when shepard woke up, garrus's team was betrayed by Sidonis and...well AJcob really didn't lose anyone since his job was to save the council. Point is they know how to keep people alive for LONG periods of time while Zaeed can't keep people alive for a mission. garrus led my first fire team to where the crew was, no casulaties, Miranda led the second fire team to wherethey ahve to hold the line, no casulaties. Nuff said: Jacob/Miranda/Garrus> Zaeed when it comes to leading fire teams. End of story.
hte point of this is saying why Zaeed isn't a good leader and gets people killed. the answer, because it's how he rolls. if it was up to him to lead the mission and not shepard, he'd have the entire crew deead if he could destroy the collector base because of it and probably would have the normandy destroyed too if it would help, hell he might have told joker to run the normandy through the baseIoCaster wrote...
ADLegend21 wrote...
Stop saying i claim they don't lose soldiers when it's obvious the Lazeruz cell workers were eliminated when shepard woke up, garrus's team was betrayed by Sidonis and...well AJcob really didn't lose anyone since his job was to save the council. Point is they know how to keep people alive for LONG periods of time while Zaeed can't keep people alive for a mission. garrus led my first fire team to where the crew was, no casulaties, Miranda led the second fire team to wherethey ahve to hold the line, no casulaties. Nuff said: Jacob/Miranda/Garrus> Zaeed when it comes to leading fire teams. End of story.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you really that dense? Do you even understand the point of this discussion?
. Point is he only cares about his wants his needs or his contract while Miranda, Jacob, and Garrus have been proven eladers who can make their teams last and be successful. what aren't you getting about this?
Modifié par MrDudley, 06 août 2010 - 12:38 .
ADLegend21 wrote...
hte point of this is saying why Zaeed isn't a good leader and gets people killed. the answer, because it's how he rolls. if it was up to him to lead the mission and not shepard, he'd have the entire crew deead if he could destroy the collector base because of it and probably would have the normandy destroyed too if it would help, hell he might have told joker to run the normandy through the base
ADLegend21 wrote...
Point is he only cares about his wants his needs or his contract while Miranda, Jacob, and Garrus have been proven eladers who can make their teams last and be successful. what aren't you getting about this?
he's not a good leader because I say so, he's not a good leader because HE says so. Miranda says so herself "I've recieved the best training and genes money can buy" she surived alone against waves of mech's in D-wing at the station shepard wakes up all while leading the commander to safety, if she can survive and keep someone else alive without being in the same part of a space station I think she's qualified to lead a group of highly trained individuals down a corridor against collectors and not lose a single life. garrus, do I really need to explain this AGAIN garrus has team of 11 he does alot of missions, they're successful, no on dies until team isbetrayed by scared member, teams secrets are exposed and they're taken down except for Garrus, who faces his adversaries MASSIVE military force on his own and stays alive against suicidal odds until Shepard comes and helps him wipe out the massive mercenary forces against them. understand????? Zaeed manages to be the sole survivor in all of his missions, that's not someone I want leading a team of 9 down a long corridor filled with enemies. I feel like a broken record because I ahve to explain this to you over and over and over again. Zaeed fails at leading but wins at being a soldier garrus wins at leading, so does Miranda, hell so does Jacob apparently (I've never selected jacob to lead the first fire team, hellI just picked Garrus for the first time today and he got eeveryone through and sounded pretty commanding saying "Cover them no one gets through that door!" and Miranda sounds the same aswell. Once again. Garrus and Miranda are Proven leaders of highly skilled operations, Zaeed gets everyone but himself killed. understand?IoCaster wrote...
ADLegend21 wrote...
hte point of this is saying why Zaeed isn't a good leader and gets people killed. the answer, because it's how he rolls. if it was up to him to lead the mission and not shepard, he'd have the entire crew deead if he could destroy the collector base because of it and probably would have the normandy destroyed too if it would help, hell he might have told joker to run the normandy through the base
He isn't a good leader because you say he isn't and that's how he rolls? Grow up, seriously.ADLegend21 wrote...
Point is he only cares about his wants his needs or his contract while Miranda, Jacob, and Garrus have been proven eladers who can make their teams last and be successful. what aren't you getting about this?
"What are you not getting about" the contention that the narrative doesn't support the claim that Miranda is a "proven combat leader" and that Zaeed isn't a "proven combat leader"? We all know how BioWare designed the suicide mission and some of us aren't satisfied that an adequate case was made to exclude Zaeed from the roster of qualified 2nd team leaders.
hiTeknology wrote...
there are many valid points to both sides of this argument, but i think the point is that Zaeed is essentially a merc or bounty hunter, loyal usually to his next paycheck. He works alone and is mostly concerned about himself, as seen in his loyalty mission.
IoCaster wrote...
There's enough information available in the game to allow the player to have a reasonable expectation that he (Zaeed) could do the job. From the players perspective we can interact with Zaeed and legitimately conclude that he's a nifty choice to kick ass and lead combat teams.
Zaeed leads a team of five other mercs to board and take down a Turian Frigate. I seriously doubt that they all boarded the ship and went their separate ways without any concern about watching each others backs. Six men working independently, without any cooperation or coordination, wouldn't last very long in that setting. That gives us some indication that he’s fully capable of integrating into a team and leading them on a seemingly impossible mission. They overcome what seem to be insurmountable odds and succeed. In the course of events the rest of the team gets killed. That's what we know and without any more specific details we can't decisively conclude that their deaths were the result of any misjudgment or a deficiency in his leadership ability. A legitimate opinion can be formed on either side of the issue.
If you do his loyalty mission you get his commitment to integrate into the team and put his past behind him. That takes care of the loyalty ‘gimmick’. He's on equal footing with the rest of the loyal squad members. As far as the player is aware, the loyalty ‘flag’ is set for success.
If you take Zaeed with you on the Garrus recruitment mission you can split your squad and leave him with Garrus. “Hey Zaeed, stay with Garrus and keep him alive.” “Roger That.” Here he commits to safeguarding a stranger and watching his back without reservation. There's no indication that he resents having to play bodyguard. He understands that he’s part of the effort. He's showing that he can be a team player. It's no different from any other character you bring along. Except perhaps Jacob who questions the decision.
After Horizon he'll admit that he understands the scope of the assignment. This isn't some small time bounty hunter job for chump change. Stopping the Collectors is a big deal and he realizes that.
If you take him with you to the Collector Ship he'll comment when you examine the dead collector drone. “They ain't doing that sh!t to us!” Now he’s got a personal stake in stopping the Collectors. He fully realizes the threat and becomes even more committed to the mission.
As I play the game I'm witnessing the progression of this character first hand. I can start to appreciate his skills and experience and give them some weight in my decision making.
When we assault the Collector Base and it's time to choose a squad leader it's eminently reasonable to expect that he'd be a viable choice. It's not as one-sided as you claim.
He's got a wealth of combat experience on a wide range of battlefields. Ground assault, infiltration, boarding ships under fire and repelling pirates/hijackers, etc,.. We can justifiably expect that he would be as good, if not better, than any other choice to adapt to combat on an atypical battlefield such as the Collector Base.
This is all straight from the narrative and part of the game itself. All indications are that he’s committed, prepared and capable of getting the job done.
We now know that he’s not a legitimate choice for the role of squad leader on the suicide mission.
My opinion is that there's enough evidence presented in the course of playing the game to counterbalance the impressions formed if you judged him solely on the basis of his anecdotes.
This is why, some new players that haven't spoiled themselves on the game, are still making that mistake. I can understand why they would be confused and come to this forum and post things like “Hey, what's the deal? He was loyal and Tali/Legion ate a rocket. WTF?!?”
ADLegend21 wrote...
Just because he says he'll fall in line and yada yada yada doesn't mean he can lead! Samara takes an OATH a binding oath yet she isn't a good fire team leaderand she's got more combat experience and 5 of Zaeeds life times. Thane has trained to be a skilled assasin since he was SIX, Grunt has a ton of Krogan knowledge, strategy, battle tactics and techniques in his head, Legion has 1,183 programs un hus ehad and can think at the speed of light, which is amazing for astrategy and tactics, mordin was part of the STG for crying out loud. combat experience is different from being able to lead. in the words of Miranda "that fire that makes people want to follow you" People may not like Miranda, but she can get the job Done, Garrus is likeable and he gets the Job done as well. that's why they keep everyone alvie when they lead the fire teams.
IanPolaris wrote...
Looks around furtively.....
OK, here's my two cents being a vet myself. Zaeed IS a bad leader. He's the kind of person that would make a terrific career private or junior non-com in the French Foreign Legion because he's a badass, but he doesn't have the intrinsic ability to get people to do what they need to do under his command without them even realizing it either via example or fear.
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