1092 réponses à ce sujet

[Riloux]

I'm sorry but I have to post this as it really pissed me off.

So the Landsmeet, you have to choose between Loghain and Alistair. My beef with this is how is Loghain even an option? Why would sparing him and making him become a Grey Warden be a punishment? His death should have been a given.

Before I got to this point in the game, I read about how I could get Loghain in my group and I assumed that I would learn some super secret reedeming aspect about him that would make everything he's done not matter anymore. That didn't happen, and the last thing he says to me before I have to choose what to do with him is calling me a traitor.

Why would anyone backstab Alistair like that, not only denying him well deserved vengeance but having Anora sentence him to death? 

The choice is hardly an ultimatum. You have to choose between loyalty to Alistair and what? What does Loghain have that would make me want him?

I do agree that Loghain was not responsible for Cailan's death but he still did a lot of other awful things. If he was really this great courageous general that he was made out to be, why would he place blame on the Wardens? Even at the Landsmeet, he never goes back on what he said about the Wardens. As far as I can tell, choosing to spare him does nothing to change his opinions and he still believes that the Wardens are garbage.

Anyway, my point is Loghain doesn't deserve redemption. He's just a power hungry, bitter, lying piece of **** that did nothing good for anyone and if he was not stopped would have surely been responsible for the complete destruction of Ferelden.

Modifié par Riloux, 04 août 2010 - 09:28 .

[FiliusMartis]

Loghain has never called me a traitor so dialogue options are different no doubt.



You may find the answers you seek here, but be aware the thread is full of spoilers...

http://social.biowar...7/index/3281779

[Last Darkness]

Being a Gray Warden is a Death Sentance, its not all high and noble. First you have to survive the joining, then you fight darkspawn at all times and probably die in battle. If you live for 30 years you die from the taint.



Lemme ask would you just kill the greatest general ferelden has ever known instead of using him to further the Grey Wardens goals? Also you do know theres a ending option to have Alistair and Anora on the Throne and Loghaine to sacrifice himself killing the Archdemon.



Plus what most people dont consider though is Alistair is a terrible choice for King, he only wants to be left alone to do his own thing and enjoy his freedom and kill the man responsible for Duncans death.



Loghaine is a perfect example of what the Grey Wardens stand for. Do anything and everything reguardless of ethics and morality for what you belive is best for your people.

[FiliusMartis]

Being a Grey Warden gives one a lot of influence and is a noble cause. Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it's not an honorable thing. Furthermore if Loghain sacrifices himself his crimes are forgotten and he is hailed as a hero.



The Wardens stand for doing what it takes in order to defeat the Blight while staying politically neutral. This is the exact opposite of what Loghain does. Grey Warden ethics and morality is open to debate. But all this is in that other thread so... why bother with rehashing?

[Tokion]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Being a Grey Warden gives one a lot of influence and is a noble cause. Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it's not an honorable thing. Furthermore if Loghain sacrifices himself his crimes are forgotten and he is hailed as a hero.

The Wardens stand for doing what it takes in order to defeat the Blight while staying politically neutral. This is the exact opposite of what Loghain does. Grey Warden ethics and morality is open to debate. But all this is in that other thread so... why bother with rehashing?

Maybe that is your warden's opinion. Some other wardens may choose to defile the ashes to get the cultist army and slaughter the elves to get the superior werewolves to fight the blight. Grey Warden are not governed by ethics, their ultimate goal is to defeat the blight.

Whats the difference between recruiting Loghain and a thief like the young Duncan? Loghain after all saved Ferelden more than once already.

[FiliusMartis]

Exactly what is my warden's opinion? I just said that ethics and morality were up for debate, but Duncan tells you that the wardens are supposed to remain neutral, if at all possible. To my knowledge, young thieves don't typically disregard the blight or try to destroy the grey warden order, so I don't see your logic in the comparison.



My point was that Loghain ignored the blight for, largely, political reasons. That is not what the wardens stand for, so for someone to say that he is a perfect grey warden example is less than true.



No matter what you do in the meantime, becoming a grey warden means ultimately dying for a greater good- destroying the blight. People will heap honors upon such an action, regardless.

[EccentricSage]

One's character might see it as reckless to waste such a resource as Loghain. Regardless of his crimes, it is more practical to subjugate him and use him in return for the redeeming of his honor. Alistair would make as poor a commander as Cailan had in a time of war, so placing him on the throne is actually also troubling. Mind you I'm not advocating Loghain... his decisions during the blight were ludicrous. But he was once a great warrior and is still useful. Alistair is a fool and a coward for running away. Wouldn't Duncan be ashamed?



Ultimately, it comes down to your character's personality and perspective as to the issue of Loghain. The choices you make in the game have greater meaning with every option you had to choose from.

[Itkovian]

Concerning Loghain not being responsible for Cailan's death, I find that highly dubious. Loghain's logic and excuse for his betrayal is that the battle was suicide, and he was better off betraying his king.

Fact is, neither Loghain nor anyone else knows what would have happened had Loghain attacked as planned.
Even if the battle would have been lost, VERY FEW battles actually end with an army being obliterated. Being the tactical genius that he is, Loghain would certainly have planned for a tactical retreat for Cailan should the battle turn against them, which would have at least preserved some of the army. Indeed, Ostagar alone would be perfect for fighting a rear guard action while the remains of the army retreated.

Consider what comes later, with a full blown civil war in Ferelden (with Loghain warring against the Bannorn), it is very difficult to tell if Ferelden would have been in a worse shape if his army had gone in and suffered a defeat (and then retreated, naturally). Ferelden would remain united (even if Cailan might have died, Loghain wouldn't have betrayed him), some Grey Wardens would likely have survived, and overall Ferelden would still be focused on the Blight instead of sinking into civil war.

Also, consider what came BEFORE the battle of Ostagar. We know for a FACT that Loghain had already planned to betray Cailan and see to his death before the battle even occured. The Human Noble origin proves that without a doubt. The only reason Howe was able to make is move was to eliminate competition for Loghain (since Bryce Cousland was the only ancestral Teyrn in Ferelden aside from the King, and could have easily rallied Ferelden against Loghain), AND because he knew that Cailan was not going to be able to stop him (remember how incredulous Cailan was when he heard the news?).

This is clear evidence that Loghain's betrayal was planned before the battle of Ostagar, before Loghain could even know it would be a hopeless battle (especially since they won the earlier battle, and he didn't even thing it was a real Blight anyway).

When taken all together, the real reason for the betrayal emerges: Loghain could not tolerate Cailan inviting the Orlaisians to send an army to help against the Darkspawn, and when he realized Cailan would permit it he began planning his betrayal (which includes removing those who could oppose his rule, such as the Couslands and Arl Eamon).

So, yeah, when you examine the evidence, it's clear that Loghain's claim that he retreated at Ostagar because the battle was suicide is actually false. Even if it was suicide, it wasn't why he did it, since his betrayal was already set in motion (remember, once Howe made his move against the Couslands, there was no turning back) before he could know the tactical situation would be.

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Gilsa]

I spared him on my first game (while in an Alistair romance, to boot) because I thought if I killed Ferelden's greatest general, I would lose his troops and Anora's cooperation. For some reason, I thought I'd gain his army in addition to the troops from the three treaties. I was more focused on ending the Blight first and figured that Loghain's crimes could be dealt with at a later point. I knew there was more to what Riordian was letting on and I wanted to see what he had to say so sparing Loghain was a matter of keeping my options open. Obviously, at the end of all that, you gain one man, not an army, but there you have the reasons for sparing Loghain.

Modifié par Gilsa, 04 août 2010 - 02:59 .

[LobselVith8]

Considering there's a post called Childish Alistair because of his refusal to work with the man responsible for abandoning his brother, his surrogate father, the army, the Wardens, and the Warden with Alistair to the darkspawn, not to mention blaming them for the deed and selling elves as slaves, I guess some people have no issue with recruiting Loghain.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 04 août 2010 - 03:01 .

[Addai]

Riloux wrote...

I'm sorry but I have to post this as it really pissed me off.

So the Landsmeet, you have to choose between Loghain and Alistair. My beef with this is how is Loghain even an option? Why would sparing him and making him become a Grey Warden be a punishment? His death should have been a given.

I feel the same way, OP.  I've never been able to find a compelling reason to conscript him.  It's the weakest point of the story IMO, because there is simply no choice as I see it.  Many other points in the game have made me think hard about what to do, but not this one.

Others view it differently, of course.  They see it as a pragmatic decision to end the Blight and not waste a general, or don't want to execute a man who has yielded in a duel.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 août 2010 - 03:07 .

[Khalara]

Riloux wrote...

I'm sorry but I have to post this as it really pissed me off.

So the Landsmeet, you have to choose between Loghain and Alistair. My beef with this is how is Loghain even an option? Why would sparing him and making him become a Grey Warden be a punishment? His death should have been a given.

Before I got to this point in the game, I read about how I could get Loghain in my group and I assumed that I would learn some super secret reedeming aspect about him that would make everything he's done not matter anymore. That didn't happen, and the last thing he says to me before I have to choose what to do with him is calling me a traitor.

Why would anyone backstab Alistair like that, not only denying him well deserved vengeance but having Anora sentence him to death? 

The choice is hardly an ultimatum. You have to choose between loyalty to Alistair and what? What does Loghain have that would make me want him?

I do agree that Loghain was not responsible for Cailan's death but he still did a lot of other awful things. If he was really this great courageous general that he was made out to be, why would he place blame on the Wardens? Even at the Landsmeet, he never goes back on what he said about the Wardens. As far as I can tell, choosing to spare him does nothing to change his opinions and he still believes that the Wardens are garbage.

Anyway, my point is Loghain doesn't deserve redemption. He's just a power hungry, bitter, lying piece of **** that did nothing good for anyone and if he was not stopped would have surely been responsible for the complete destruction of Ferelden.

You really need to read "The Calling"  if you haven't.   Otherwise, it's just a matter of how you play your character.  In my opinion, Duncan himself would have spared him.

[Addai]

Khalara wrote...

You really need to read "The Calling"  if you haven't.   Otherwise, it's just a matter of how you play your character.  In my opinion, Duncan himself would have spared him.

Just pointing out that I've read both books and it only strengthened my opinion about Loghain.  It made him a more tragic figure, but not any less destructive or culpable.

[Itkovian]

jln.francisco wrote...

Riloux wrote...
The choice is hardly an ultimatum. You have to choose between loyalty to Alistair and what? What does Loghain have that would make me want him?

It depends. How do you feel about Edward Cullen?

*blink*

Somewhere in the world, a man named Simon Templeman just felt searing gut pains.

Itkovian

[FiliusMartis]

As I stated in the other thread, I would be more tempted to conscript him if I could force a confession from him first. As for what Duncan would do, it would hardly be the same issue. If Duncan were alive then Alistair would not have his death to blame on Loghain; it's likely Duncan could talk Alistair down from leaving the wardens as well.



Alistair may be a fool or coward for running, but Loghain ran earlier, and for more devious reasons. Therefore, to me, it boiled down between two people who show faults, one has been loyal to me and my cause or one who has done everything to destroy me, sabotage my cause, and a slew of other offenses.



I understand the arguments for recruiting Loghain from either a pragmatic or a merciful perspective, I really do, and I've recruited him. I do not understand any attempts to exonerate him or use him as a heroic example.

[Itkovian]

Khalara wrote...

You really need to read "The Calling"  if you haven't.   Otherwise, it's just a matter of how you play your character.  In my opinion, Duncan himself would have spared him.

Well, that's hardly fair. Duncan actually knows about the whole archdemon-must-be-killed-by-a-grey-warden deal. He would understand the practical aspect. And naturally, if Duncan was there to let him live, Alistair would too.

That said, I think that if Duncan was in the same situation Alistair is in, not knowing about the archdemon thing, he would likely kill him without hesitation. Indeed, we already know how quick Duncan is to kill people who go astray.

Not to mention Loghain is clear-shaven. He would have no chance at all.

Itkovian

Modifié par Itkovian, 04 août 2010 - 03:32 .

[balmung03]

Even though I kill him off in most of my games, the dialogue with Ser Cauthrien before entering the Landsmeet gives a lot of background information on why Loghain did what he did. Yes, he blew lots of things out of proportion, but his fear of another Orlesian occupation should he accept their help (driven by his past experiences in battle) was fresh in his mind. Allowing the elves in the alienage to be sold into slavery is definitely abhorrent, but considering how the rest of the populace views and treats elves, most of them can't really take the moral high ground there. It's fairly easy for me to see that his actions were performed with the intention of protecting his country and people, but he was also blind to another event that was putting such things at risk (namely, the Blight). From an ethical standpoint, allowing Loghain the chance to redeem himself is the correct path, but roleplaying factors can really throw that off, especially if playing an elf and/or a templar.

[Marcy3655]

Riloux wrote...

I'm sorry but I have to post this as it really pissed me off.

So the Landsmeet, you have to choose between Loghain and Alistair. My beef with this is how is Loghain even an option? Why would sparing him and making him become a Grey Warden be a punishment? His death should have been a given.

Before I got to this point in the game, I read about how I could get Loghain in my group and I assumed that I would learn some super secret reedeming aspect about him that would make everything he's done not matter anymore. That didn't happen, and the last thing he says to me before I have to choose what to do with him is calling me a traitor.

Why would anyone backstab Alistair like that, not only denying him well deserved vengeance but having Anora sentence him to death? 

The choice is hardly an ultimatum. You have to choose between loyalty to Alistair and what? What does Loghain have that would make me want him?

I do agree that Loghain was not responsible for Cailan's death but he still did a lot of other awful things. If he was really this great courageous general that he was made out to be, why would he place blame on the Wardens? Even at the Landsmeet, he never goes back on what he said about the Wardens. As far as I can tell, choosing to spare him does nothing to change his opinions and he still believes that the Wardens are garbage.

Anyway, my point is Loghain doesn't deserve redemption. He's just a power hungry, bitter, lying piece of **** that did nothing good for anyone and if he was not stopped would have surely been responsible for the complete destruction of Ferelden.

which is why I simply cut his lying throat....   right in front of everybody....    my warden was a bit brutal but I hardened both Alistair and lileana so I wasn't worrying about it too much....   hehe

 

M

[Zjarcal]

Yay! Another Loghain thread! Can't go a week without one...

Alright, joking aside (I realize the OP maybe new so he/she may have missed other debates), I'll just point out a few reasons why sparing Loghain is an option, though obviously there are also plenty of compelling reasons to execute him. It's just a matter of how you play your Warden.

Loghain is a hero. A fallen hero that is, one who has let paranoia get to his head, but he is the reason why Ferelden gained freedom from Orlais. Sparing him for the sake of one last chance at redemption is something to consider.

Killing a man in front of his own daughter is not exactly something everyone wants to do, regardless of what you think of him or his daughter.

Loghain yields in the duel. The duel was "until one party yields", not till death.

Riordan is a senior Warden and his opinion should be of value (of course, the game should've given you an option to ask him why there were "compelling reasons to have as many Wardens as possible"). And as Riordan points out, the Wardens recruit anyone, regardless of whatever dark past they might have, into their ranks.

"Loyalty to Alistair" as you point out, may not be a concern to other players. While Alistair's desire to execute Loghain is understandable, some players prefer to make a decision that isn't clouded by thoughts of revenge. Not to mention some players don't care about Alistair at all.

None of those reasons may be enough to convince you that his life should be spared, but different players have different mindsets. Also, Alistair doesn't have to be sentenced to death, you can talk Anora into just letting him go. Or you could even get them married and spare Loghain (if Alistair is hardened) thus getting the best possible ending for everyone (hypothetically speaking of course).

Finally, if you spare Loghain and he survives the final battle, he does tell you that he has come to respect you.

 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 04 août 2010 - 04:01 .

[Marcy3655]

he pulled his army out and let the wardens get slaughtered... isn't that enough reason to kill him?

I thought it was.. the lying treacherous b*stard!! lol

I did it for that reason alone... didn't really care what alistair or any of the others thought about it... my warden was a pretty brutal character, but that's what I loved about her the most....    beautiful and deadly, an utterly enticing combination...   hehe

M

Modifié par Marcy3655, 04 août 2010 - 04:37 .

[errant_knight]

Last Darkness wrote...

Being a Gray Warden is a Death Sentance, its not all high and noble. First you have to survive the joining, then you fight darkspawn at all times and probably die in battle. If you live for 30 years you die from the taint.

Lemme ask would you just kill the greatest general ferelden has ever known instead of using him to further the Grey Wardens goals? Also you do know theres a ending option to have Alistair and Anora on the Throne and Loghaine to sacrifice himself killing the Archdemon.

Plus what most people dont consider though is Alistair is a terrible choice for King, he only wants to be left alone to do his own thing and enjoy his freedom and kill the man responsible for Duncans death.

Loghaine is a perfect example of what the Grey Wardens stand for. Do anything and everything reguardless of ethics and morality for what you belive is best for your people.

I couldn''t disagree more in every way possible. For one thing, you're assuming that your way to play the game is the only way. Once it's been suggested to Alistair that he stand up for what he wants, he says it's the only way he'll ever really be happy, and decides that he actually wants to be king. He also says that Anora isn't an option. So your way of viewing it is one way, with certain choices, but it's certainly not the only way. Loghain may be an example of what you see the Warden's standing for, but his behavior shows him to be a very poor choice of someone to rule over actual people, in my opinion. I've not made Alistair king--disturbing, that--the moment when he renounced the throne felt very wrong--and I've made him king. One thing I will never do is spare a man who took a truly massive army from the field, abandoning the people who expected his help, and which was his own plan, allowed a lacky to slaughter a noble family, poisoned the head of another, and sold people to finance his bid to control the country. Loghain always dies.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 août 2010 - 05:14 .

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...

One thing I will never do is spare a man who took a truly massive army from the field, abandoning the people who expected his help, and which was his own plan, allowed a lacky to slaughter a noble family, poisoned the head of another, and sold people to finance his bid to control the country. Loghain always dies.

I assume you refer to Howe, right? Hasn't it already been made clear that Loghain had nothing to do with the murder of the Couslands?

Modifié par Zjarcal, 04 août 2010 - 05:58 .

[Marcy3655]

anyone who is that much of a deceiver dies, and Maker help me, I grin with satisfaction as I do the cutting....



M