I never said no one likes Loghain, but without the Couslands and with the King dead, why do you think Anora wouldn't have a claim to the throne? She was the Queen. The only alternative would be a Teyrn - her father Loghain, since the Couslands were murdered. There's no contender to the throne that Anora has to concern herself with during the first Landsmeet that Loghain calls. Regarding the Landsmeet the Warden participates in, the reason Anora needs the Warden's support is because Alistair's claim to the throne is stronger than hers - he's a direct descendant of Calenhad.
You've got to be kidding me..
Débuté par
Riloux
, août 04 2010 09:26
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#227
Posté 07 août 2010 - 06:51
Sarah1281
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Alistair's claim isn't stronger regardless of what Eamon says. It's politics. I never said that without Eamon getting involved or Loghain declaring himself regent Anora couldn't have become the ruling Queen, just that in the game she remains Cailan's consort that is still called the Queen by virtue of no one else being on the throne and Loghain taking the title of regent.LobselVith8 wrote...
I never said no one likes Loghain, but without the Couslands and with the King dead, why do you think Anora wouldn't have a claim to the throne? She was the Queen. The only alternative would be a Teyrn - her father Loghain, since the Couslands were murdered. There's no contender to the throne that Anora has to concern herself with during the first Landsmeet that Loghain calls. Regarding the Landsmeet the Warden participates in, the reason Anora needs the Warden's support is because Alistair's claim to the throne is stronger than hers - he's a direct descendant of Calenhad.
#228
Posté 07 août 2010 - 06:53
CakesOnAPlane
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By that time I always have to kill him. I mean he's been trying to kill me the whole game, it's only fair I return the favor.
Besides I'm not giving him the chance to screw things up again.
Besides I'm not giving him the chance to screw things up again.
#229
Posté 07 août 2010 - 07:33
LobselVith8
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Sarah1281 wrote...
Alistair's claim isn't stronger regardless of what Eamon says. It's politics. I never said that without Eamon getting involved or Loghain declaring himself regent Anora couldn't have become the ruling Queen, just that in the game she remains Cailan's consort that is still called the Queen by virtue of no one else being on the throne and Loghain taking the title of regent.LobselVith8 wrote...
I never said no one likes Loghain, but without the Couslands and with the King dead, why do you think Anora wouldn't have a claim to the throne? She was the Queen. The only alternative would be a Teyrn - her father Loghain, since the Couslands were murdered. There's no contender to the throne that Anora has to concern herself with during the first Landsmeet that Loghain calls. Regarding the Landsmeet the Warden participates in, the reason Anora needs the Warden's support is because Alistair's claim to the throne is stronger than hers - he's a direct descendant of Calenhad.
I don't see why you think she wasn't really the Queen. If you read the codex, it specifically states:
In the end, Anora was deposed, and Alistair was given the throne.
#230
Posté 07 août 2010 - 07:40
ArawnNox
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
Alistair's claim isn't stronger regardless of what Eamon says. It's politics. I never said that without Eamon getting involved or Loghain declaring himself regent Anora couldn't have become the ruling Queen, just that in the game she remains Cailan's consort that is still called the Queen by virtue of no one else being on the throne and Loghain taking the title of regent.LobselVith8 wrote...
I never said no one likes Loghain, but without the Couslands and with the King dead, why do you think Anora wouldn't have a claim to the throne? She was the Queen. The only alternative would be a Teyrn - her father Loghain, since the Couslands were murdered. There's no contender to the throne that Anora has to concern herself with during the first Landsmeet that Loghain calls. Regarding the Landsmeet the Warden participates in, the reason Anora needs the Warden's support is because Alistair's claim to the throne is stronger than hers - he's a direct descendant of Calenhad.
I don't see why you think she wasn't really the Queen. If you read the codex, it specifically states:In the end, Anora was deposed, and Alistair was given the throne.
The whole thing is kindof a big political mess, really. I can see how one can get confused digging through the mire of titles.
#231
Posté 07 août 2010 - 07:41
Sarah1281
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Yes, and you can have the line 'but we're planning on deposing her.' I still don't agree that's what you're doing, though. I'm not saying she's 'not really the Queen', just that she was never the ruling Queen. If Cailan, while alive, had given in to Eamon and set Anora aside to marry a younger woman, would that be deposing her? Of course not. No matter how much unofficial power she may have had, Cailan was the one with the final authority as ruling King and so he was the only one of the pair who, if removed from his position, would be considered deposed.LobselVith8 wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
Alistair's claim isn't stronger regardless of what Eamon says. It's politics. I never said that without Eamon getting involved or Loghain declaring himself regent Anora couldn't have become the ruling Queen, just that in the game she remains Cailan's consort that is still called the Queen by virtue of no one else being on the throne and Loghain taking the title of regent.LobselVith8 wrote...
I never said no one likes Loghain, but without the Couslands and with the King dead, why do you think Anora wouldn't have a claim to the throne? She was the Queen. The only alternative would be a Teyrn - her father Loghain, since the Couslands were murdered. There's no contender to the throne that Anora has to concern herself with during the first Landsmeet that Loghain calls. Regarding the Landsmeet the Warden participates in, the reason Anora needs the Warden's support is because Alistair's claim to the throne is stronger than hers - he's a direct descendant of Calenhad.
I don't see why you think she wasn't really the Queen. If you read the codex, it specifically states:In the end, Anora was deposed, and Alistair was given the throne.
The way Ferelden succession works is that the Landsmeet has to meet and confirm every new King or Queen before they can take the throne even if there's no question of whether they'll be confirmed. As Bryce made it clear he wasn't interested, everyone knew Cailan would succeed his father. He still wasn't automatically the ruling King and needed the Landsmeet to confirm it before he was. Anora did not have the Landmseet confirm her as a ruling Queen and, if they met, all they did was listen to Loghain announce himself as regent.
I don't believe it is possible to depose a consort. Anora is a consort until the Landsmeet at the end of the game when she's either a former consort or a ruling Queen. Thus, no matter that the game calls it being deposed, I refuse to believe that's what actually happened. She's not being removed from power as, officially, she has none. It's not treason to plan on removing someone who is not actually a ruler from the throne they've yet to vacate after their ruling husband died.
#232
Posté 07 août 2010 - 07:53
LobselVith8
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Sarah1281 wrote...
Yes, and you can have the line 'but we're planning on deposing her.' I still don't agree that's what you're doing, though. I'm not saying she's 'not really the Queen', just that she was never the ruling Queen. If Cailan, while alive, had given in to Eamon and set Anora aside to marry a younger woman, would that be deposing her? Of course not. No matter how much unofficial power she may have had, Cailan was the one with the final authority as ruling King and so he was the only one of the pair who, if removed from his position, would be considered deposed.LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see why you think she wasn't really the Queen. If you read the codex, it specifically states:In the end, Anora was deposed, and Alistair was given the throne.
The way Ferelden succession works is that the Landsmeet has to meet and confirm every new King or Queen before they can take the throne even if there's no question of whether they'll be confirmed. As Bryce made it clear he wasn't interested, everyone knew Cailan would succeed his father. He still wasn't automatically the ruling King and needed the Landsmeet to confirm it before he was. Anora did not have the Landmseet confirm her as a ruling Queen and, if they met, all they did was listen to Loghain announce himself as regent.
The problem there is that there was a Landsmeet, and we don't know if they confirmed Anora as Queen because it only focused on Loghain, but everyone from Alistair to Eamon to Loghain all refer to her as the Queen, not Queen-Consort. Even Bann Teegan refers to Anora as "your Majesty" during the Landsmeet and Arl Eamon never contradicts the idea of deposing her when the Warden brings the topic up.
Sarah1281 wrote...
I don't believe it is possible to depose a consort. Anora is a consort until the Landsmeet at the end of the game when she's either a former consort or a ruling Queen. Thus, no matter that the game calls it being deposed, I refuse to believe that's what actually happened. She's not being removed from power as, officially, she has none. It's not treason to plan on removing someone who is not actually a ruler from the throne they've yet to vacate after their ruling husband died.
But the player also refers to the act as being deposed as well in dialogue. If you don't replace her, the codex states:
In the end, Anora kept her throne, with The Warden now her king-consort, and Alistair was taken away to be executed.
#233
Posté 07 août 2010 - 08:00
maxernst
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Does anybody else wish there were a "let the Landsmeet decide" option both for Loghain's fate and who the monarch should be? I find it irritating (Obsidian did the same thing with the trial in NWN2) that you go through all these hoops to "win" the Landsmeet, and it doesn't make any real difference whether you win or not, you still have to fight.
By the way, former consorts were still sometimes referred to as Queens particularly if the King wasn't married.
By the way, former consorts were still sometimes referred to as Queens particularly if the King wasn't married.
#234
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 07 août 2010 - 08:05
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maxernst wrote...
Does anybody else wish there were a "let the Landsmeet decide" option both for Loghain's fate and who the monarch should be? I find it irritating (Obsidian did the same thing with the trial in NWN2) that you go through all these hoops to "win" the Landsmeet, and it doesn't make any real difference whether you win or not, you still have to fight.
It would have been very much appreciated. They set this grand stage where you must muster your allies before the nobles of Fereldan and convince them only you can stop the Blight. Then they tell you all your work = zilch so here, have this pointless duel with a 60 year old man.
Not saying I didn't appreciate getting to kick Loghain into the ground, I just don't understand why we even had a Landsmeet if a duel would have sufficed. Hell I would've taken Morrigan up on her advice and killed him ages ago then.
#235
Posté 07 août 2010 - 08:15
ArawnNox
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As plausible as I think it would be to storm the castle (because, lets face it, you go through far far greater threats than Denerim's guards on your way to making the Landsmeet happen), up and assassinating/killing Loghain really would have made the situation much worse for the player.jln.francisco wrote...
maxernst wrote...
Does anybody else wish there were a "let the Landsmeet decide" option both for Loghain's fate and who the monarch should be? I find it irritating (Obsidian did the same thing with the trial in NWN2) that you go through all these hoops to "win" the Landsmeet, and it doesn't make any real difference whether you win or not, you still have to fight.
It would have been very much appreciated. They set this grand stage where you must muster your allies before the nobles of Fereldan and convince them only you can stop the Blight. Then they tell you all your work = zilch so here, have this pointless duel with a 60 year old man.
Not saying I didn't appreciate getting to kick Loghain into the ground, I just don't understand why we even had a Landsmeet if a duel would have sufficed. Hell I would've taken Morrigan up on her advice and killed him ages ago then.
#236
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 07 août 2010 - 09:23
Guest_jln.francisco_*
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ArawnNox wrote...
As plausible as I think it would be to storm the castle (because, lets face it, you go through far far greater threats than Denerim's guards on your way to making the Landsmeet happen), up and assassinating/killing Loghain really would have made the situation much worse for the player.jln.francisco wrote...
maxernst wrote...
Does anybody else wish there were a "let the Landsmeet decide" option both for Loghain's fate and who the monarch should be? I find it irritating (Obsidian did the same thing with the trial in NWN2) that you go through all these hoops to "win" the Landsmeet, and it doesn't make any real difference whether you win or not, you still have to fight.
It would have been very much appreciated. They set this grand stage where you must muster your allies before the nobles of Fereldan and convince them only you can stop the Blight. Then they tell you all your work = zilch so here, have this pointless duel with a 60 year old man.
Not saying I didn't appreciate getting to kick Loghain into the ground, I just don't understand why we even had a Landsmeet if a duel would have sufficed. Hell I would've taken Morrigan up on her advice and killed him ages ago then.
True but confronting him early on may have been enough to prevent the whole civil war. Who knows? Maybe he would have seen reason after you beat his face into the ground? Might even be able to convince Alistair not to kill him as the feelings of hate won't have time to really grow and blossom in the couple of years spent ducking assassination attempts and reliving the deaths of all his comrades.
Dreaming of course but it's fun to do sometimes.
#237
Posté 07 août 2010 - 09:26
Sarah1281
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It's not a couple years. The whole game takes more than a year and less than two, probably 18-months is an accurate estimation.
#238
Posté 07 août 2010 - 10:34
CalJones
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Yeah, it can be fun to dream. I do wonder what would have had happened if I could have confronted him early in the game...perhaps he might have seen reason even without the beating.
Something along the lines of "hey there big fella, I have these nice warden treaties and can help replace the armies lost at Ostagar, but they only work if I'm alive. So stop trying to kill me and perhaps we can come to an arrangement."
Paranoid as he is, I can't imagine a man as pragmatic as Loghain would turn down the offer of free armies.
Were I the Warden, this is most likely what I would have done, instead of messing about chasing after mythical artifacts to cure sick arls and playing at politics. Of course, there is a risk of death if he doesn't see reason, but then there's a risk of death if you go chasing the Ashes or anything else, for that matter. It'd be a much shorter and less dramatic game that way, though...which is why I suspect you don't get this option.
Something along the lines of "hey there big fella, I have these nice warden treaties and can help replace the armies lost at Ostagar, but they only work if I'm alive. So stop trying to kill me and perhaps we can come to an arrangement."
Paranoid as he is, I can't imagine a man as pragmatic as Loghain would turn down the offer of free armies.
Were I the Warden, this is most likely what I would have done, instead of messing about chasing after mythical artifacts to cure sick arls and playing at politics. Of course, there is a risk of death if he doesn't see reason, but then there's a risk of death if you go chasing the Ashes or anything else, for that matter. It'd be a much shorter and less dramatic game that way, though...which is why I suspect you don't get this option.
#239
Posté 07 août 2010 - 10:40
ArawnNox
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Yeah, but by the time you got there, he'd have already blamed the wardens for Cailen's death, which would mean exposing his lie (or half-truth, depending on your point of view) if he accepted your help.
I think if you confronted Loghain in the begining, he'd just arrest you or if you took Morrigan's advice and killed him, then it would only make you look terrible in the eyes of the Bannorn, since you just killed the hero of River Dane and no evidence to show his treachery. So, no, I don't think its a very good idea.
Thinking about it now, though, it would have been nice to have a few character witnesses from the various factions to back you up, but then, I'm not sure the nobles would care what the other factions had to say.
I think if you confronted Loghain in the begining, he'd just arrest you or if you took Morrigan's advice and killed him, then it would only make you look terrible in the eyes of the Bannorn, since you just killed the hero of River Dane and no evidence to show his treachery. So, no, I don't think its a very good idea.
Thinking about it now, though, it would have been nice to have a few character witnesses from the various factions to back you up, but then, I'm not sure the nobles would care what the other factions had to say.
#240
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 07 août 2010 - 10:47
Guest_jln.francisco_*
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Definitely. How much more awesome would the Landsmeet had each of the factions you recuited/helped marched in as Anora starts feeding everyone her bs story and pledged their loyalty to the Warden's and to ending the Blight whatever it cost their people? Or Cautherien coming in and publicly denouncing Loghain, oh god... That would have been epic!
#241
Posté 07 août 2010 - 11:01
ArawnNox
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Yeah, but I think the banns would have a collective heart attack if you walked in with werewolves behind you. Just sayin;. 
#242
Posté 07 août 2010 - 11:02
FiliusMartis
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ArawnNox wrote...
Yeah, but I think the banns would have a collective heart attack if you walked in with werewolves behind you. Just sayin;.
Yes, and it would have been completely worth it. :happy:
#243
Posté 07 août 2010 - 11:06
Giggles_Manically
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Warden: I am a good guy! Here to save Fereldan!
<Banns all see Werewolves and Golems>
Warden:Ignore the army behind me!
<Banns all see Werewolves and Golems>
Warden:Ignore the army behind me!
#244
Posté 07 août 2010 - 11:08
Avilia
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Giggles_Manically wrote...
Warden: I am a good guy! Here to save Fereldan!
Warden:Ignore the army behind me!
He/she fed them a cookie and they just started following ;-)
#245
Posté 08 août 2010 - 12:30
maxernst
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CalJones wrote...
Paranoid as he is, I can't imagine a man as pragmatic as Loghain would turn down the offer of free armies.
Were I the Warden, this is most likely what I would have done, instead of messing about chasing after mythical artifacts to cure sick arls and playing at politics.
But he already has turned down free armies from the Wardens and from Orlais. And by the time the Landsmeet arrives, he's certainly aware that you have the treaty armies and Eamon at your back...which you don't actually have earlier in the game. Yet he still makes no effort to reach an agreement. Nor does he ever appear to make any effort to negotiate with any of the Banns opposing him, all of whom could add to his army. I don't think he has any interest in diplomacy.
Anora is pragmatic. I don't see any evidence that Loghain is a pragmatist at all.
Modifié par maxernst, 08 août 2010 - 12:31 .
#246
Posté 08 août 2010 - 01:48
Ianthia
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ArawnNox wrote...
Yeah, but I think the banns would have a collective heart attack if you walked in with werewolves behind you. Just sayin;.
That would be the funniest thing ever lol. I chose to side with the werewolves once - the satisfaction being the end of Camen
Everyone plays their warden differently - I play each of my characters differently.
One of my HNF wardens saved Loghain because she had alway been in love with him... yes, you read that right.
She married Ali off to Anora because she thought he would be a lousy king on his own.
She chose Loghain because of his experience as a general in battle - something she felt Alistair didn't have.
Now - I don't play ALL my characters like that. For the most part I really enjoy watching my warden or Ali kill Loghain.
I just like to roleplay different scenarios
:innocent:
Modifié par Ianthia, 08 août 2010 - 01:49 .
#247
Posté 08 août 2010 - 05:18
Bahlgan
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CakesOnAPlane wrote...
By that time I always have to kill him. I mean he's been trying to kill me the whole game, it's only fair I return the favor.
Besides I'm not giving him the chance to screw things up again.
That is another way to look at it; some people just don't trust others. At first I blatantly didn't trust Loghain, and still to this day hold your same feelings in my heart. After all, if I spared him just to have his blade in my heart while sleeping in the throne room, think of how stupid it would sound. All for what? A pragmatism to utilize a former war hero who had gone bad? I don't think so.
But he already has turned down free armies from the Wardens and from Orlais. And by the time the Landsmeet arrives, he's certainly aware that you have the treaty armies and Eamon at your back...which you don't actually have earlier in the game. Yet he still makes no effort to reach an agreement. Nor does he ever appear to make any effort to negotiate with any of the Banns opposing him, all of whom could add to his army. I don't think he has any interest in diplomacy.
To advocate this conclusion, I'd like to draw, once again, the lives starved from the Bannorn. Loghain hanged those who fought him to answer to the public. He even TURNS down the Warden if asked to join him at the Arl of Redcliffe's Estate.
Modifié par Bahlgan, 08 août 2010 - 05:22 .
#248
Posté 08 août 2010 - 05:24
Bahlgan
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Ianthia wrote...
That would be the funniest thing ever lol. I chose to side with the werewolves once - the satisfaction being the end of Camen
Everyone plays their warden differently - I play each of my characters differently.
One of my HNF wardens saved Loghain because she had alway been in love with him... yes, you read that right.
She married Ali off to Anora because she thought he would be a lousy king on his own.
She chose Loghain because of his experience as a general in battle - something she felt Alistair didn't have.
Now - I don't play ALL my characters like that. For the most part I really enjoy watching my warden or Ali kill Loghain.
I just like to roleplay different scenarios
Sorry for the double post guys, but still...
Just checking, this is on a PC version right?
#249
Posté 08 août 2010 - 05:33
Ianthia
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Yes
I play PC only.
My poor game is totally modded heh
As twisted as he seems in the game I think he had his reasons.
I don't think it was all about his own glory but more for his country as a whole.
Everything he does is for Ferelden. He just went the wrong way about it at the end.
I do think he deserves a chance to right his wrongs though.
(I also tend to release Jowan too lol)
I play PC only.
My poor game is totally modded heh
As twisted as he seems in the game I think he had his reasons.
I don't think it was all about his own glory but more for his country as a whole.
Everything he does is for Ferelden. He just went the wrong way about it at the end.
I do think he deserves a chance to right his wrongs though.
(I also tend to release Jowan too lol)
#250
Posté 08 août 2010 - 08:46
Bahlgan
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Ianthia wrote...
Yes
I play PC only.
My poor game is totally modded heh
As twisted as he seems in the game I think he had his reasons.
I don't think it was all about his own glory but more for his country as a whole.
Everything he does is for Ferelden. He just went the wrong way about it at the end.
I do think he deserves a chance to right his wrongs though.
(I also tend to release Jowan too lol)
Heh heh fair enough, I dream for the day where you can mod things on PS3. You would think so, first step was online gaming for certain titles, next step would be downloadable mods.
In case you didn't skip to the earlier part of the thread, if you wish you may read my opinions on Loghain, but long story short, in my game he died also.
