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[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wasn't talking about Loghain redeeming himself or anything, just the thought that sending Loghain to Orlais being a coincidence on the part of the First Warden is...difficult to swallow.

Well then, time for him to put on the adult diapers and grow up, he reaps what he sows.

[TJPags]

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wasn't talking about Loghain redeeming himself or anything, just the thought that sending Loghain to Orlais being a coincidence on the part of the First Warden is...difficult to swallow.

Well then, time for him to put on the adult diapers and grow up, he reaps what he sows.

This.

He's a soldier.  As a former soldier/general, he should know, you go where you're sent, do what you're told.  Don't like it?  Shouldn't have signed up.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, minus the point that he didn't sign up to be a Warden.



So it's really a 'shut up, do what your told, because I claim some arbitrary political authority over you.'



None of which has much to do with Sarah's point about the problem being on the First Warden's part, not Loghain's. Loghain goes on with it, but that doesn't mean the person ordering it is doing anything smart.

[TJPags]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, minus the point that he didn't sign up to be a Warden.

So it's really a 'shut up, do what your told, because I claim some arbitrary political authority over you.'

None of which has much to do with Sarah's point about the problem being on the First Warden's part, not Loghain's. Loghain goes on with it, but that doesn't mean the person ordering it is doing anything smart.

Well, now, to be fair, he did have a choice - you could have killed him. 

And maybe someone who hates the ruling class in Orlais is just what they need?

[ArawnNox]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, minus the point that he didn't sign up to be a Warden.

So it's really a 'shut up, do what your told, because I claim some arbitrary political authority over you.'

None of which has much to do with Sarah's point about the problem being on the First Warden's part, not Loghain's. Loghain goes on with it, but that doesn't mean the person ordering it is doing anything smart.

Is it possible the First Warden doesn't know of Loghain's personal problems and only knows of his River Dane reputation? I have no idea what kind of roumors of what happened during Ferelden's Blight would reach the First Warden, but they may or may not have evidence to support them, so the First Warden may not even take them into consideration.

[Bahlgan]

ArawnNox wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, minus the point that he didn't sign up to be a Warden.

So it's really a 'shut up, do what your told, because I claim some arbitrary political authority over you.'

None of which has much to do with Sarah's point about the problem being on the First Warden's part, not Loghain's. Loghain goes on with it, but that doesn't mean the person ordering it is doing anything smart.

Is it possible the First Warden doesn't know of Loghain's personal problems and only knows of his River Dane reputation? I have no idea what kind of roumors of what happened during Ferelden's Blight would reach the First Warden, but they may or may not have evidence to support them, so the First Warden may not even take them into consideration.

Minus the meta-gaming aspect, I too was oblivious to what happened to him in TST when slaying him, but now that I know I do indeed feel pity for slaying him, but I will not have Alistair pay the price for me choosing to spare Loghain. If I had to choose between the two (which ALL non-PCs DO anyway) Alistair deserves his time under the spotlight and a chance to redeem the bad things in his past life as well. Loghain's time is over, let a new hero rule Ferelden.

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Well, minus the point that he didn't sign up to be a Warden.

So it's really a 'shut up, do what your told, because I claim some arbitrary political authority over you.'

None of which has much to do with Sarah's point about the problem being on the First Warden's part, not Loghain's. Loghain goes on with it, but that doesn't mean the person ordering it is doing anything smart.

Is it possible the First Warden doesn't know of Loghain's personal problems and only knows of his River Dane reputation? I have no idea what kind of roumors of what happened during Ferelden's Blight would reach the First Warden, but they may or may not have evidence to support them, so the First Warden may not even take them into consideration.

Minus the meta-gaming aspect, I too was oblivious to what happened to him in TST when slaying him, but now that I know I do indeed feel pity for slaying him, but I will not have Alistair pay the price for me choosing to spare Loghain. If I had to choose between the two (which ALL non-PCs DO anyway) Alistair deserves his time under the spotlight and a chance to redeem the bad things in his past life as well. Loghain's time is over, let a new hero rule Ferelden.

While I'm not judging anyone for making this choice or anything of the sort, I always hated the idea of being forced to kill someone that you would not have otherwise done (and it is a case of that or Alistair doesn't make it a 'him or me' situation) because otherwise someone will get mad and either quit the Blight to be King or leave Ferelden to die while he goes off to be an exile.

The fact that he's so upset he can't kill one person no matter who that person is or what they've done that he would walk away and leave Ferelden to its fate makes me lose a lot of respect for him and his handling Loghain's survival badly (however justified his feelings are) is not nearly enough to make me kill someone I didn't plan on killing.

Edit: In other words, he's not paying a price, he's making a choice. Even though Anora wants to kill non-King Alistair if Loghain lives, he still plans on leaving before she says anything.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 10 août 2010 - 04:20 .

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

While I'm not judging anyone for making this choice or anything of the sort, I always hated the idea of being forced to kill someone that you would not have otherwise done (and it is a case of that or Alistair doesn't make it a 'him or me' situation) because otherwise someone will get mad and either quit the Blight to be King or leave Ferelden to die while he goes off to be an exile.

The fact that he's so upset he can't kill one person no matter who that person is or what they've done that he would walk away and leave Ferelden to its fate makes me lose a lot of respect for him and his handling Loghain's survival badly (however justified his feelings are) is not nearly enough to make me kill someone I didn't plan on killing.

Edit: In other words, he's not paying a price, he's making a choice. Even though Anora wants to kill non-King Alistair if Loghain lives, he still plans on leaving before she says anything.

I can completely understand why Alistair wants Loghain dead; he and I (as a Warden and a real life individual) have a strong sense of justice. He wants the death of Duncan, the one person who did listen to whatever Alistair thought was important to him and the one person who cared truly for him enough to drag him out of a dead chantry and has been slain by the hands of a mad general, to be avenged so that he will feel Duncan did not die in vain, otherwise let's face it, he did die in vain. If he doesn't get Duncan's death avenged, then he feels screwed over and betrayed. I do not plan on betraying someone who has only the best of intentions for Ferelden.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 10 août 2010 - 04:40 .

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

While I'm not judging anyone for making this choice or anything of the sort, I always hated the idea of being forced to kill someone that you would not have otherwise done (and it is a case of that or Alistair doesn't make it a 'him or me' situation) because otherwise someone will get mad and either quit the Blight to be King or leave Ferelden to die while he goes off to be an exile.

The fact that he's so upset he can't kill one person no matter who that person is or what they've done that he would walk away and leave Ferelden to its fate makes me lose a lot of respect for him and his handling Loghain's survival badly (however justified his feelings are) is not nearly enough to make me kill someone I didn't plan on killing.

Edit: In other words, he's not paying a price, he's making a choice. Even though Anora wants to kill non-King Alistair if Loghain lives, he still plans on leaving before she says anything.

I can completely understand why Alistair wants Loghain dead; he and I (as a Warden and a real life individual) have a strong sense of justice. He wants the death of Duncan, the one person who did listen to whatever Alistair thought was important to him and the one person who cared truly for him enough to drag him out of a dead chantry and has been slain by the hands of a mad general, to be avenged so that he will feel Duncan did not die in vain, otherwise let's face it, he did die in vain. If he doesn't get Duncan's death avenged, then he feels screwed over and betrayed. I do not plan on betraying someone who has only the best of intentions for Ferelden.

Alistair has the right to feel whatever he wants to about Loghain, you sparing Loghain, the GW, ect. What he feels does not give him a pass on threatening to leave and ignore the Blight if you do not do what he wants you to do and then following up on that threat.

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

Khalara wrote...

Riloux wrote...

I'm sorry but I have to post this as it really pissed me off.

So the Landsmeet, you have to choose between Loghain and Alistair. My beef with this is how is Loghain even an option? Why would sparing him and making him become a Grey Warden be a punishment? His death should have been a given.

Before I got to this point in the game, I read about how I could get Loghain in my group and I assumed that I would learn some super secret reedeming aspect about him that would make everything he's done not matter anymore. That didn't happen, and the last thing he says to me before I have to choose what to do with him is calling me a traitor.

Why would anyone backstab Alistair like that, not only denying him well deserved vengeance but having Anora sentence him to death? 

The choice is hardly an ultimatum. You have to choose between loyalty to Alistair and what? What does Loghain have that would make me want him?

I do agree that Loghain was not responsible for Cailan's death but he still did a lot of other awful things. If he was really this great courageous general that he was made out to be, why would he place blame on the Wardens? Even at the Landsmeet, he never goes back on what he said about the Wardens. As far as I can tell, choosing to spare him does nothing to change his opinions and he still believes that the Wardens are garbage.

Anyway, my point is Loghain doesn't deserve redemption. He's just a power hungry, bitter, lying piece of **** that did nothing good for anyone and if he was not stopped would have surely been responsible for the complete destruction of Ferelden.

You really need to read "The Calling"  if you haven't.   Otherwise, it's just a matter of how you play your character.  In my opinion, Duncan himself would have spared him.

I think Duncan would've spared him too. And I feel it's better if you've not read "The Calling" as your opinions on Loghain is not affected by any other sources other than the game.

Modifié par The Hardest Thing In The World, 10 août 2010 - 05:44 .

[maxernst]

CalJones wrote...

maxernst wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Paranoid as he is, I can't imagine a man as pragmatic as Loghain would turn down the offer of free armies.
Were I the Warden, this is most likely what I would have done, instead of messing about chasing after mythical artifacts to cure sick arls and playing at politics.

But he already has turned down free armies from the Wardens and from Orlais.  And by the time the Landsmeet arrives, he's certainly aware that you have the treaty armies and Eamon at your back...which you don't actually have earlier in the game.  Yet he still makes no effort to reach an agreement.  Nor does he ever appear to make any effort to negotiate with any of the Banns opposing him, all of whom could add to his army.  I don't think he has any interest in diplomacy.

Anora is pragmatic.  I don't see any evidence that Loghain is a pragmatist at all.

Obviously he doesn't want help from the country he has spent his youth fighting against, and whose atrocities he has witnessed first hand. That's a no brainer. It's also worth noting that he does not trust the Wardens because a) Maric brought them over from Orlais - yes, it's that country again, and some of them were involved in a plot to kidnap Maric (see The Calling).
However, Loghain has already tried to enlist help from The Circle (via Uldred, whoops...but still), and has previously fought alongside the Dalish and the Legion of the Dead (see The Stolen Throne). He can't object to those allies, and he may even respect you for enlisting their help.
As far as the actual game goes, you're pretty much railroaded into siding against Loghain (even down to a lack of dialogue choices where you are able to express doubt as to his culpability in Cailan's death, and so forth) just as you are railroaded into going for the Ashes. The games sets you up to be Loghain's enemy, whether you want to be or not, and since you are unable to confront him until Landsmeet, you're already too far down that path to make a rational discussion possible (as is he).
However, we're talking "what ifs" here so indulge me for a moment. Imagine a Warden who met the king, thought he was a ****** and didn't much care that he got himself killed. Perhaps a Warden who was an unwilling recruit, and wasn't upset by the death of the other wardens, or perhaps even saw it as a blessing. Now, Loghain has already met the Warden at Ostagar and is aware the s/he's a new recruit, so if that Warden then went to him and said, look, I don't know what the deal is with the wardens but I was only a member for a few hours before they all died, and was not privvy to any plots or schemes they may or may not have been hatching...but I have these treaties and if you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours... then perhaps things could have gone a lot differently.
Obviously, going to him and accusing him of killing the king wouldn't have gone over well, but that line of thinking is catered for adequately in the finished game.
Anyway, these are just my idle musings so feel free to ignore as you see fit.

In order to work with the Warden openly, he would have to admit that he lied about what happened at Ostagar...and admitting he lied about the battle is going to convince a lot of people that he was the traitor.  The only way out of that is if you've got a PC that is willing to testify that the Wardens did betray Cailan, but that would certainly be over Alistair's dead body.  Or maybe Alistair would run off to Eamon and you'd be in a race against him to gather the allies. 

I think a more realistic way of avoiding that final confrontation is if Loghain makes an overture to the PC's side prior to the Landsmeet.  Maybe after having Riordan tortured, he's satisfied himself that the Wardens aren't working with Orlais and is willing to offer an olive branch.  That would make a hell of a lot more sense than him suddenly deciding the Wardens are working for Ferelden just because you beat him in a duel.

[CalJones]

Yes that would make more sense. The whole Landsmeet finale feels very artificial with the forced choice between Alistair and Loghain and the Loghain's dramatic attitude adjustment. I'm not sure if this was always planned - as someone else has pointed out, the DA toolset contains a Loghain Fade nightmare (presumably culled from the Sloth demon part of the Circle quest) so it looks as though Loghain was planned to be in the party a bit longer at one stage. Perhaps this explains the disparity between the Loghain of the novels to the pantomime villain he's presented as in game. I'm conjecturing, of course, but if he was joinable at an earlier stage, he may have been a more "grey" character at one stage, rather than the darker one we see prior to Landsmeet.

I have to admit, though, that the idea of siding with Loghain and racing against Alistair and Eamon would be pretty awesome.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

While I'm not judging anyone for making this choice or anything of the sort, I always hated the idea of being forced to kill someone that you would not have otherwise done (and it is a case of that or Alistair doesn't make it a 'him or me' situation) because otherwise someone will get mad and either quit the Blight to be King or leave Ferelden to die while he goes off to be an exile.

The fact that he's so upset he can't kill one person no matter who that person is or what they've done that he would walk away and leave Ferelden to its fate makes me lose a lot of respect for him and his handling Loghain's survival badly (however justified his feelings are) is not nearly enough to make me kill someone I didn't plan on killing.

Edit: In other words, he's not paying a price, he's making a choice. Even though Anora wants to kill non-King Alistair if Loghain lives, he still plans on leaving before she says anything.

I can completely understand why Alistair wants Loghain dead; he and I (as a Warden and a real life individual) have a strong sense of justice. He wants the death of Duncan, the one person who did listen to whatever Alistair thought was important to him and the one person who cared truly for him enough to drag him out of a dead chantry and has been slain by the hands of a mad general, to be avenged so that he will feel Duncan did not die in vain, otherwise let's face it, he did die in vain. If he doesn't get Duncan's death avenged, then he feels screwed over and betrayed. I do not plan on betraying someone who has only the best of intentions for Ferelden.

Alistair has the right to feel whatever he wants to about Loghain, you sparing Loghain, the GW, ect. What he feels does not give him a pass on threatening to leave and ignore the Blight if you do not do what he wants you to do and then following up on that threat.

I've seen this as the biggest argument made against Alistair when the Landsmeet is mentioned and any debate is made about Loghain and Alistair. I certainly think Loghain is a complex individual, but he's commited some grave atrocities as well (especially since this quest is open right after Unrest in the Alienage). Alistair leaves in disgust, but should he really be blamed for being unable to accept Loghain as a brother? In his defense, the Warden is the de facto leader of the moiety group of individuals with him, and the one who the dwarves, elves and humans have pledged their soldiers to. The Warden is recognized as the Grey Warden, and an unhardened Alistair may feel that his contribution may be minimal in comparison to the person who chose the King of Orzammar, decided the fate of the mages and elves, and saved the life of Arl Eamon with the mythic urn of Sacred Ashes.

Alistair either leaves in disgust or sits on the throne, rightfully angry that the man (who, in his eyes) is responsible for the deaths of every Grey Warden at Ostagar, including Duncan (who he saw as a father) and even his brother. They've had to kill soldiers who had proclaimed themselves agents of Loghain (even calling him King Loghain, as mentioned by his emissary at Orzammar) for over a year, being hated by people because they were falsely accused by Loghain of betraying the Crown. What we as the player know of Loghain's history from the novels, aware of events from cutscenes that in lore no one is privy to, Alistair simply knows that Loghain betrayed them to the darkspawn to take power. From the posioning of the Arl and the near destruction of Redcliffe to the selling of elves as slaves and plotting to kill Anora to blame Eamon (that Loghain himself dismisses as theatricality on Anora's part, but something you only discover if you permit him to leave). During all that time, I'm certain the hatred for Loghain festered, and the Grey Wardens are a group of honor for Alistair. In his mind, making Loghain a Grey Warden because he's responsible (in Alistair's POV) for the deaths of everyone at Ostagar doesn't make sense. Alistair doesn't know the price that Grey Wardens pay for killing the Archdemon.

[Dean_the_Young]

An alternative to 'Loghain in party early' might simply be 'could do Landsmeet immediately after Urn of Sacred Ashes, regardless of treaty allies'. So you could have gotten Loghain before any of the Treaty Quests... something that really isn't non-kosher with those stories per say.

[CalJones]

Also a possibility. If that were the case, then I can see why the Landsmeet was delayed until the end as it's more of a climax than the actualy Denerim battle, IMHO.

[Sarah1281]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

While I'm not judging anyone for making this choice or anything of the sort, I always hated the idea of being forced to kill someone that you would not have otherwise done (and it is a case of that or Alistair doesn't make it a 'him or me' situation) because otherwise someone will get mad and either quit the Blight to be King or leave Ferelden to die while he goes off to be an exile.

The fact that he's so upset he can't kill one person no matter who that person is or what they've done that he would walk away and leave Ferelden to its fate makes me lose a lot of respect for him and his handling Loghain's survival badly (however justified his feelings are) is not nearly enough to make me kill someone I didn't plan on killing.

Edit: In other words, he's not paying a price, he's making a choice. Even though Anora wants to kill non-King Alistair if Loghain lives, he still plans on leaving before she says anything.

I can completely understand why Alistair wants Loghain dead; he and I (as a Warden and a real life individual) have a strong sense of justice. He wants the death of Duncan, the one person who did listen to whatever Alistair thought was important to him and the one person who cared truly for him enough to drag him out of a dead chantry and has been slain by the hands of a mad general, to be avenged so that he will feel Duncan did not die in vain, otherwise let's face it, he did die in vain. If he doesn't get Duncan's death avenged, then he feels screwed over and betrayed. I do not plan on betraying someone who has only the best of intentions for Ferelden.

Alistair has the right to feel whatever he wants to about Loghain, you sparing Loghain, the GW, ect. What he feels does not give him a pass on threatening to leave and ignore the Blight if you do not do what he wants you to do and then following up on that threat.

I've seen this as the biggest argument made against Alistair when the Landsmeet is mentioned and any debate is made about Loghain and Alistair. I certainly think Loghain is a complex individual, but he's commited some grave atrocities as well (especially since this quest is open right after Unrest in the Alienage). Alistair leaves in disgust, but should he really be blamed for being unable to accept Loghain as a brother? In his defense, the Warden is the de facto leader of the moiety group of individuals with him, and the one who the dwarves, elves and humans have pledged their soldiers to. The Warden is recognized as the Grey Warden, and an unhardened Alistair may feel that his contribution may be minimal in comparison to the person who chose the King of Orzammar, decided the fate of the mages and elves, and saved the life of Arl Eamon with the mythic urn of Sacred Ashes.

Alistair either leaves in disgust or sits on the throne, rightfully angry that the man (who, in his eyes) is responsible for the deaths of every Grey Warden at Ostagar, including Duncan (who he saw as a father) and even his brother. They've had to kill soldiers who had proclaimed themselves agents of Loghain (even calling him King Loghain, as mentioned by his emissary at Orzammar) for over a year, being hated by people because they were falsely accused by Loghain of betraying the Crown. What we as the player know of Loghain's history from the novels, aware of events from cutscenes that in lore no one is privy to, Alistair simply knows that Loghain betrayed them to the darkspawn to take power. From the posioning of the Arl and the near destruction of Redcliffe to the selling of elves as slaves and plotting to kill Anora to blame Eamon (that Loghain himself dismisses as theatricality on Anora's part, but something you only discover if you permit him to leave). During all that time, I'm certain the hatred for Loghain festered, and the Grey Wardens are a group of honor for Alistair. In his mind, making Loghain a Grey Warden because he's responsible (in Alistair's POV) for the deaths of everyone at Ostagar doesn't make sense. Alistair doesn't know the price that Grey Wardens pay for killing the Archdemon.

Should he be blamed for leaving all of Ferelden to die because he can't look past his hatred of one man? Yes, yes he should. If he can't serve with you and Loghain it's not like anyone would have had too much of a problem with 'Warden, I'm leaving your group to sever with the Redcliffe forces.' The minute his hatred leads him to let the entire country fall, something that Loghain himself would never dream of doing, he crosses the line and loses not only all moral superiority but all sympathy from me.

[ArawnNox]

He does deliver some stupid ultimatums at that point.

"I'll be king if you kill him."

and/or

"I'm going to leave if you make him a Warden."

Makes you just want to slap him... and depending on how my Fem!Tabris fic goes, she just might.

[Costin_Razvan]

Where is this said FF Arawn? Would like to read it



"Quietly leaves the Loghain debate."

[ArawnNox]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Where is this said FF Arawn? Would like to read it

"Quietly leaves the Loghain debate."

I'm only about 5 pages into writing it and its starting with the Origin. I'm not sur where to post it when I'm done with the first chapter.

[CalJones]

It actually ticks me off that various characters wander around saying "Oh noes! Loghain murdered the king!" and "Loghain murdered the wardens!"

Well, no he didn't, actually - both were killed by darkspawn. Sure, he didn't charge in to help them, and he does have to take some stick for that, but it's not the same thing (especially since there was no guarantee that he would have managed to save them and get out again without losing his army).

If Alistair really wanted justice for Duncan, he should have stuck around and killed some darkspawn.

(Before a lot of people have embolisms, I am not arguing that Loghain should be allowed to live. We all know he's done same bad stuff, and whether he deserves another chance is down to the individual. I'm just saying he didn't kill Cailan or Duncan. Mr Ogre and Mr Hurlock were responsible for that).

[ArawnNox]

CalJones wrote...

It actually ticks me off that various characters wander around saying "Oh noes! Loghain murdered the king!" and "Loghain murdered the wardens!"
Well, no he didn't, actually - both were killed by darkspawn. Sure, he didn't charge in to help them, and he does have to take some stick for that, but it's not the same thing (especially since there was no guarantee that he would have managed to save them and get out again without losing his army).
If Alistair really wanted justice for Duncan, he should have stuck around and killed some darkspawn.
(Before a lot of people have embolisms, I am not arguing that Loghain should be allowed to live. We all know he's done same bad stuff, and whether he deserves another chance is down to the individual. I'm just saying he didn't kill Cailan or Duncan. Mr Ogre and Mr Hurlock were responsible for that).

Well, they Darkspawn killed them in a direct sense. Loghain's withdraw from the battle has been subject to a lot of debate... A LOT.
Personally, I find it annoying how Alistair wigs out when you accept Loghain's surrender. He surrendered in a duel and I accepted it, I didn't say I forgave his crimes!

edit: fixed a grammatical error

Modifié par ArawnNox, 10 août 2010 - 07:04 .

[Darkannex]

Ooooh my hot button topic!

My first play through was as a warden smitten with Alistair. Of course what he wanted, I did. Hardened, he did want to be king inasmuch as he was a better choice than Anora. And Loghain died by his hand. There was no niggling issues since Riordan had no chance to muddy the waters.



Subsequent playthroughs later, I find it hard not to metagame. The instinct to flirt with Alistair is hard-as his initial overtures are so sweet. (the flower thing). But ultimately I feel he loses sight of the greater issues-the Blight. His desire for revenge overruns everything else. It's very human. It's understandable, it's totally appropriate as a character.



And utterly crushing. Right or wrong, understandable or not, the repercussions of his leaving are so monstrous. He not only leaves YOU, he leaves Ferelden to rot and crawls into a bottle. That's pretty darned extreme.



Others have said it, he had options that did NOT involve abandoning his whole country. And as D. Gaider said, this is a decision he will regret for his whole life. He passed from understandable to unforgiveable with his responses.



Reasons for sparing Loghain?

You have been a Warden for how long? About a year or so? Duncan died like the day after you were joined? And Alistair has only been a warden half a year longer? What do you KNOW of being a Warden? I mean, really? You have been going it alone, and doing a fine job of it. But here comes a peer of Duncan's who although being pretty off the cuff steps into a charged situation and advises you NOT to kill Loghain - that there are reasons why you need more Wardens... what reasonable, logical person would not at that point at least WAIT? If you found his reasons less than compelling, you could execute him later, put him on trial, HUMILIATE him. That is MY primary reason to spare Loghain. Someone who knows a heckuva lot more than me about the Wardens asked me to.



There are other reasons, all stated. I personally believe Duncan would have recruited him on the spot. He was very much of a mind that anything you could throw at the Blight would help. And let's face it, Loghain was a big something. A hero, a man of great influence, the last kings father-in-law... He still had plenty of influence (as Cauthrien evidenced). She MAY ask you to stop Loghain, but she will not do so herself. Welding him to the wardens dissolves the civil war on the spot and throws ALL his support to your cause. Like it or not, Loghain now has one purpose, the Blight.



It's a win-win situation for the country. It's also apparently the one thing Alistair can't swallow. It's funny that he'll stand by you to do a limited genocide of Dalish, or spare all the mages, even if they may be posessed, or let Redcliffe's village be destroyed....but refuse to kill Loghain? He's out of there and into a bottle of self pity.



My warden would search for him, had she the choice. But she usually makes him king, and I hope out of game that he will eventually reconcile with my decision, because I DO miss him. Or I let him fight Loghain, so there is no question of sparing him.



Once Riordan opens his mouth, it's over for me.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Should he be blamed for leaving all of Ferelden to die because he can't look past his hatred of one man? Yes, yes he should. If he can't serve with you and Loghain it's not like anyone would have had too much of a problem with 'Warden, I'm leaving your group to sever with the Redcliffe forces.' The minute his hatred leads him to let the entire country fall, something that Loghain himself would never dream of doing, he crosses the line and loses not only all moral superiority but all sympathy from me.

He's human. Throughout DA:O he lays out the sense of loss he feels for his lost comrades and Duncan. He's nearly lost another surrogate father in Arl Eamon and been hunted with the Warden because Loghain frakked up and blamed the Grey Wardens. Alistair is one person who feels betrayed and can't get pasted the man responsible for destroying everything he held dear being allowed to live and given the honor of becoming a Grey Warden. He's not the leader of the group, he's not the commander of the forces arrayed against the darkspawn menace, he's not even aware the role Grey Wardens play in stopping the Blight. He can't get past his hatred for the man he blames for murdering his surrogate family and father. If he can't think straight, how effective is he going to be in battle? I don't blame him for not fighting at the side of the Warden. The burden of responsibility is on the Warden's shoulders, after all. A hardened Alistair will accept that Loghain is spared but decides to become King, and an unhardened Alistair has his entire life ruined because of his inability to get past Loghain being spared. I don't see why you seem to think this is so trivial to him. This destroys Alistair unless his personality is hardened. I can see why Loghain would be spared, but blaming Alistair for having a normal reaction to the man responsible for so much misery and death being brought on the team is taking it a little far.

CalJones wrote...

It actually ticks me off that various characters wander around saying "Oh noes! Loghain murdered the king!" and "Loghain murdered the wardens!"
Well, no he didn't, actually - both were killed by darkspawn. Sure, he didn't charge in to help them, and he does have to take some stick for that, but it's not the same thing (especially since there was no guarantee that he would have managed to save them and get out again without losing his army).
If Alistair really wanted justice for Duncan, he should have stuck around and killed some darkspawn.
(Before a lot of people have embolisms, I am not arguing that Loghain should be allowed to live. We all know he's done same bad stuff, and whether he deserves another chance is down to the individual. I'm just saying he didn't kill Cailan or Duncan. Mr Ogre and Mr Hurlock were responsible for that).

Considering Morrigan points out that he ignored the signal and left the field, leaving the soldiers and the King to the darkspawn forces, I don't see how else someone like Alistair should feel. Yes, Loghain is a hero, but every person dead at Ostagar died because they followed a plan Loghain came up with. He said that the forces were sufficient, he abandoned the King to his fate, and he blamed the Wardens for killing the King and sent countless people to murder the Wardens. Loghain isn't exactly a saint here. Letting him live is about giving him a chance to atone for his mistakes.

Darkannex wrote... 

There are other reasons, all stated. I personally believe Duncan would have recruited him on the spot. He was very much of a mind that anything you could throw at the Blight would help. And let's face it, Loghain was a big something. A hero, a man of great influence, the last kings father-in-law... He still had plenty of influence (as Cauthrien evidenced). She MAY ask you to stop Loghain, but she will not do so herself. Welding him to the wardens dissolves the civil war on the spot and throws ALL his support to your cause. Like it or not, Loghain now has one purpose, the Blight.

I'd agree about the notion of wielding him to the Wardens. If this was lore and not metagaming, it seems like a rational response to secure every faction against the Blight and stop the civil war. I always pair a hardened Alistair and Anora as the leaders of Ferelden instead of the things they do seperately (give equality to the elves on Alistair's part, build a university on Anora's part) I can imagine they'd do together. That Alistair feels so strongly about Loghain is understandable - he sees the man as responsible for killing the only real father and family he ever had.

[Sarah1281]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Should he be blamed for leaving all of Ferelden to die because he can't look past his hatred of one man? Yes, yes he should. If he can't serve with you and Loghain it's not like anyone would have had too much of a problem with 'Warden, I'm leaving your group to sever with the Redcliffe forces.' The minute his hatred leads him to let the entire country fall, something that Loghain himself would never dream of doing, he crosses the line and loses not only all moral superiority but all sympathy from me.

He's human. Throughout DA:O he lays out the sense of loss he feels for his lost comrades and Duncan. He's nearly lost another surrogate father in Arl Eamon and been hunted with the Warden because Loghain frakked up and blamed the Grey Wardens. Alistair is one person who feels betrayed and can't get pasted the man responsible for destroying everything he held dear being allowed to live and given the honor of becoming a Grey Warden. He's not the leader of the group, he's not the commander of the forces arrayed against the darkspawn menace, he's not even aware the role Grey Wardens play in stopping the Blight. He can't get past his hatred for the man he blames for murdering his surrogate family and father. If he can't think straight, how effective is he going to be in battle? I don't blame him for not fighting at the side of the Warden. The burden of responsibility is on the Warden's shoulders, after all. A hardened Alistair will accept that Loghain is spared but decides to become King, and an unhardened Alistair has his entire life ruined because of his inability to get past Loghain being spared. I don't see why you seem to think this is so trivial to him. This destroys Alistair unless his personality is hardened. I can see why Loghain would be spared, but blaming Alistair for having a normal reaction to the man responsible for so much misery and death being brought on the team is taking it a little far.

Where, exactly, in my 'I'm not talking about whether or not him blaming Loghain for, well, everything is justified and he can feel whatever he wants to' did you get 'I don't see why you seem to think this is so trivial to him'? I believe that just because it is a human reaction does not mean we cannot blame him for it. If I was one of a mere handful of people capable of saving my country and walked out because I handled not killing someone I had personal issues with - and Alistair does have personal issues with Loghain no matter that you may not feel that term properly explains just how deep or justified those issues are - then, human reaction or not, I would deserve to be blamed for it.

Simply put, I don't care if Loghain had personally killed everyone at Ostagar himself by lining them up and slitting their throats while torturing Duncan to death for months and he died in Alistair's arms when we invaded Howe's estate. Alistair would, in that case, have a damn good reason to be angry and it would be just as human for him to leave but that would not make it okay. It is still a horrible thing to do for him to take off and leave an entire country to his fate because of his feelings towards one man.

And yes, that's exactly what it is. Loghain is one man, hatred is a feeling, Alistair's hatred towards Loghain is what motivtes him to leave in the event that he does not die. Again, I am not judging the validity of his blaming Loghain for things or his hatred towards Loghain. I am judging the, though human, choice he makes to leave. He could have stayed. The fact he hates Loghain more than anything did not force him to leave. His leaving is what I blame him for, not his hatred of Loghain.

Edit: Seriously, just because other people might react similarly in that situation does not give him or them a pass for what he did.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 10 août 2010 - 09:21 .