1092 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Where, exactly, in my 'I'm not talking about whether or not him blaming Loghain for, well, everything is justified and he can feel whatever he wants to' did you get 'I don't see why you seem to think this is so trivial to him'? I believe that just because it is a human reaction does not mean we cannot blame him for it. If I was one of a mere handful of people capable of saving my country and walked out because I handled not killing someone I had personal issues with - and Alistair does have personal issues with Loghain no matter that you may not feel that term properly explains just how deep or justified those issues are - then, human reaction or not, I would deserve to be blamed for it.

Blamed for what exactly? Alistair is one person, and one with no responsibilities among the armies. The Warden is the one with the responsibility here, not Alistair. You're making it sound so dire when it's simply that one man left.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Simply put, I don't care if Loghain had personally killed everyone at Ostagar himself by lining them up and slitting their throats while torturing Duncan to death for months and he died in Alistair's arms when we invaded Howe's estate. Alistair would, in that case, have a damn good reason to be angry and it would be just as human for him to leave but that would not make it okay. It is still a horrible thing to do for him to take off and leave an entire country to his fate because of his feelings towards one man.

And yes, that's exactly what it is. Loghain is one man, hatred is a feeling, Alistair's hatred towards Loghain is what motivates him to leave in the event that he does not die. Again, I am not judging the validity of his blaming Loghain for things or his hatred towards Loghain. I am judging the, though human, choice he makes to leave. He could have stayed. The fact he hates Loghain more than anything did not force him to leave. His leaving is what I blame him for, not his hatred of Loghain.

Edit: Seriously, just because other people might react similarly in that situation does not give him or them a pass for what he did.

Alistair isn't the leader of the armies, the Warden is. He made a personal choice not to work with the man who left the Wardens and the King to die. Nothing hinges on Alistair remaining at the side of the Warden. His leaving doesn't change anything, it's simply that Loghain has your back instead of Alistair. You're making it sound like Alistair allowed the darkspawn armies to murder every man, woman, and child in Ferelden when all he did was walk away while the Warden remained the one with all the responsibility.

[Sarah1281]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Where, exactly, in my 'I'm not talking about whether or not him blaming Loghain for, well, everything is justified and he can feel whatever he wants to' did you get 'I don't see why you seem to think this is so trivial to him'? I believe that just because it is a human reaction does not mean we cannot blame him for it. If I was one of a mere handful of people capable of saving my country and walked out because I handled not killing someone I had personal issues with - and Alistair does have personal issues with Loghain no matter that you may not feel that term properly explains just how deep or justified those issues are - then, human reaction or not, I would deserve to be blamed for it.

Blamed for what exactly? Alistair is one person, and one with no responsibilities among the armies. The Warden is the one with the responsibility here, not Alistair. You're making it sound so dire when it's simply that one man left.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Simply put, I don't care if Loghain had personally killed everyone at Ostagar himself by lining them up and slitting their throats while torturing Duncan to death for months and he died in Alistair's arms when we invaded Howe's estate. Alistair would, in that case, have a damn good reason to be angry and it would be just as human for him to leave but that would not make it okay. It is still a horrible thing to do for him to take off and leave an entire country to his fate because of his feelings towards one man.

And yes, that's exactly what it is. Loghain is one man, hatred is a feeling, Alistair's hatred towards Loghain is what motivates him to leave in the event that he does not die. Again, I am not judging the validity of his blaming Loghain for things or his hatred towards Loghain. I am judging the, though human, choice he makes to leave. He could have stayed. The fact he hates Loghain more than anything did not force him to leave. His leaving is what I blame him for, not his hatred of Loghain.

Edit: Seriously, just because other people might react similarly in that situation does not give him or them a pass for what he did.

Alistair isn't the leader of the armies, the Warden is. He made a personal choice not to work with the man who left the Wardens and the King to die. Nothing hinges on Alistair remaining at the side of the Warden. His leaving doesn't change anything, it's simply that Loghain has your back instead of Alistair. You're making it sound like Alistair allowed the darkspawn armies to murder every man, woman, and child in Ferelden when all he did was walk away while the Warden remained the one with all the responsibility.

You're seeing it as 'one man deserted' which, in and of itself, is a crime punishable by death as we've seen in Awakenings. I see it as 'one of three-hopefully-four GW who, while they may not know why they are needed, understand that they are necessary for ending the Blight walks out and if Ferelden falls...well, they shouldn't have spared Loghain.' Alistair may not be a part of any army and so it may not be legally wrong for him to leave but I feel it is morally wrong for him to do so. Just like pre-Landsmeet you don't have any legal obligations to stay in Ferelden and try to do the treaties but if you had just left for Orlais and Ferelden fell, you might not get courtmartialed but you would be morally responsible for your choice. The fact that Alistair leaves as one of the three GW (Loghain isn't even shown to be able to survive the Joining yet) means that Ferelden's chances are worse than they'd be without him. Notice how he never seems to question the fact that a GW has to end the Blight even though he doesn't know why. Even if GWs weren't needed, he believes otherwise. He believes he, Riordan, you, or Loghain would need to be the one to kill the Archdemon and he walks away. I don't see why you have a problem with holding someone morally responsible for that.

[maxernst]

Diminished responsibility due to temporary insanity?

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I don't see why you have a problem with holding someone morally responsible for that.

Do you hold your Warden responsible the same way? Your Warden is risking a lot by making this choice and it's not entirely clear why he/she did so ... only altruistic reasons ... or is it also arrogance, the will to do things your way even if you briefly risk ending up with only two Wardens.

I'm always under the impression that this is rather one-sided. Alistair leaves at that point and that's clearly something to hold against him. Doesn't mean the Warden is not partly to blame for the situation.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 août 2010 - 09:54 .

[Sarah1281]

klarabella wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
I don't see why you have a problem with holding someone morally responsible for that.

Do you hold your Warden responsible the same way? Your Warden is risking a lot by making this choice and it's not entirely clear why he/she did so ... only altruistic reasons ... or is it also arrogance, the will to do things your way even if you briefly risk ending up with only two Wardens.

Would I hold my Warden responsible if she'd left for whatever reason in the middle of a Blight? Yes. I don't think she's morally screwing Ferelden over by not saying 'you know what, for whatever reason I'm going to spare Loghain...oh no, but Alistiar's decided he'd rather leave the whole country to die if I do that. Better kill a man that I had decided not to kill.' The moral responsibility here is, in my view, on staying to end the Blight. As she stays to do just that, Alistair choosing to decrease the number of Wardens in Ferelden and walk out is not something I blame her for and no, that's not a double standard. A double standard would be if I felt that, as she didn't actually care about Ferelden, she was completely morally in the right to abandon the country but Alistair was morally wrong in doing so over Loghain.

[maxernst]

But you are saying you'd rather have a chance of having Loghain on your side than hang on to Alistair...which goes against the pragmatism of "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush".

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

But you are saying you'd rather have a chance of having Loghain on your side than hang on to Alistair...which goes against the pragmatism of "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush".

While the determination to not change your mind and kill someone because Alistair gives you an ultimatum does go against pragmatisim, I still don't see how Alistair's ultimatum could possibly give you a moral responsibility to kill someone you were not intending to like Alistair has a moral responsibility not to cut and run.

[ArawnNox]

maxernst wrote...

But you are saying you'd rather have a chance of having Loghain on your side than hang on to Alistair...which goes against the pragmatism of "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush".

I disagree. The pragmatism of the situation is: If Loghain survives the joining, the Wardens gain a great asset, if not, then justice is served in his execution.
Alistair sees being a Warden as a great honor, and seems to disagree with Duncan's "At any cost" philosophy of ending the Blight (and even that has it's limits). He doesn't even consider the possability of Loghain dying in the joining or dying in fighting the Blight, or dying when his Calling comes as justice. He wants Loghain dead NOW.

[Giggles_Manically]

Revenge has claimed Alistair in that scene sadly.

When he said "make me king so Loghain can die!" I made him marry Anora, and spared Loghain.

Not to further the debate but I cant believe some people actually use the reason "But Alistair got mad, so I was like there goes Loghains head".



I wont murder someone in cold blood in front of his daughter no less, just to make someone happy.

[maxernst]

ArawnNox wrote...

maxernst wrote...

But you are saying you'd rather have a chance of having Loghain on your side than hang on to Alistair...which goes against the pragmatism of "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush".

I disagree. The pragmatism of the situation is: If Loghain survives the joining, the Wardens gain a great asset, if not, then justice is served in his execution.

But the fact is, if he doesn't survive the joining, you're down to two wardens instead of the three had going in--if he does you have three and whether Loghain's a greater asset than Alistair is questionable in my mind (there are arguments both ways).  Of course, for my PC it was a moot point because he couldn't see any reason to believe Loghain wouldn't "save" Ferelden from the evil Orlesians by murdering him and Riordan in his sleep at first opportunity. 

[maxernst]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Revenge has claimed Alistair in that scene sadly.
When he said "make me king so Loghain can die!" I made him marry Anora, and spared Loghain.
Not to further the debate but I cant believe some people actually use the reason "But Alistair got mad, so I was like there goes Loghains head".

I wont murder someone in cold blood in front of his daughter no less, just to make someone happy.

I killed a ton of people for Anora's help and for Bhelen/Harrowmont's help.  A couple for Leliana (nothing forces us to seek out Marjolaine). Possibly Flemeth for Morrigan.  Dozens in Haven to get the ashes for Eamon.  It's your call, but I don't think in context that killing one man for Alistair is all that shocking a reason.

[ArawnNox]

maxernst wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

maxernst wrote...

But you are saying you'd rather have a chance of having Loghain on your side than hang on to Alistair...which goes against the pragmatism of "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush".

I disagree. The pragmatism of the situation is: If Loghain survives the joining, the Wardens gain a great asset, if not, then justice is served in his execution.

But the fact is, if he doesn't survive the joining, you're down to two wardens instead of the three had going in--if he does you have three and whether Loghain's a greater asset than Alistair is questionable in my mind (there are arguments both ways).  Of course, for my PC it was a moot point because he couldn't see any reason to believe Loghain wouldn't "save" Ferelden from the evil Orlesians by murdering him and Riordan in his sleep at first opportunity. 

I never said he was a greater asset. I'm talking about his experience and tactical brilliance (which I'm still unconvinced of). If Alistair didn't run off, you'd have 4 Grey Wardens, and one who was a great hero, despite his gong off the deep end with paranoia about Orlais. As it stands, outside of the hypathetical, you're still sitting at 3 Wardens facing the Blight, regardless of what happens.

[FiliusMartis]

I think it may be pragmatic to spare Loghain if and only if Alistair is going to be ruling with Anora. Otherwise, you risk his death or his immediate departure and, as maxernst pointed out, Loghain dying in the joining and being the only remaining warden. However, if Alistair is still around as king and Loghain dies, then perhaps Alistair could be persuaded to return, seeing that he will not have to stand by Loghain.

[MKDAWUSS]

My thinking was, I spared Loghain for multiple reasons - one, he was a renowned general who basically did the wrong things for the right reasons; and two, it wasn't my place to kill him. That was for either the Landsmeet or the monarch to decide. And then Alistair of course loses it, and while I applaud him for standing up for once, even willing to use his heritage to his advantage now, I deny him the crown, because he's doing it out of anger and impulse, something that disqualifies someone for a seat with that much importance. Anora then makes a convincing argument about starting future rebellions (which could be possible - he'll have backing from Arl Eamon, and he'll have motivation from a living Loghain). So off he goes to the execution chamber.

[maxernst]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I think it may be pragmatic to spare Loghain if and only if Alistair is going to be ruling with Anora. Otherwise, you risk his death or his immediate departure and, as maxernst pointed out, Loghain dying in the joining and being the only remaining warden. However, if Alistair is still around as king and Loghain dies, then perhaps Alistair could be persuaded to return, seeing that he will not have to stand by Loghain.

This does make sense.  Of course, if Alistair is hanging around as King, then he hasn't really abandoned his responsibilities to Ferelden.  In fact--tactically--it could be argued that if the Warden's party fails, Ferelden will still have one last shot at the Archdemon in that case. 

You can only have that happen if Alistair is hardened, though.

[CalJones]

It may be more practical to take the existing warden over the potential warden, but...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I wont murder someone in cold blood in front of his daughter no less, just to make someone happy.

This.

It's a shame as I like Alistair and he does feel like a friend (I much prefer the bromance to the romance, honestly) but given the choice of splattering Loghain's blood all over Anora or losing a friendship, I'll lose the friendship every time.

Modifié par CalJones, 10 août 2010 - 10:29 .

[nos_astra]

MKDAWUSS wrote...
So off he goes to the execution chamber.

I will never get that kind of reasoning.

Loghain did commit crimes, serious ones by overriding the Landsmeet and trying to grab power or not following Cailan's orders. That's treason and punishable by death. You've killed so many people for less without a trial but all of a sudden you are concerned about it?

And subsequently allow an innocent man to be killed, the very one who stood by your side and helped you get that far.
Good thing it's not you who decides, but Anora.

Your Warden is a douchebag and a hypocrite.

Of course, you are free to play a douchebag and a hypocrite.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 août 2010 - 10:31 .

[ArawnNox]

I can't really understand wanting to lop off Alistair's head at that point either. Even if you have a real bastard of a Grey Warden who antagonizes the whole party, you'd have to be especially heartless to kill someone you traveled with for so long who stuck with you, as hard to get along with as you were.

[maxernst]

CalJones wrote...

It may be more practical to take the existing warden over the potential warden, but...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I wont murder someone in cold blood in front of his daughter no less, just to make someone happy.

This.

It's a shame as I like Alistair and he does feel like a friend (I much prefer the bromance to the romance, honestly) but given the choice of splattering Loghain's blood all over Anora or losing a friendship, I'll lose the friendship every time.

Anora can take it.  Besides, with Daddy dead she'll get a chance to really rule (if you put her on the throne).  She's just not honest enough to thank you for it.

[MKDAWUSS]

klarabella wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...
So off he goes to the execution chamber.

I will never get that kind of reasoning.

Loghain did commit crimes, serious ones by overriding the Landsmeet and trying to grab power or not following Cailan's orders. That's treason and punishable by death. You've killed so many people for less without a trial but all of a sudden you are concerned about it?

And subsequently allow an innocent man to be killed, the very one who stood by your side and helped you get that far.
Good thing it's not you who decides, but Anora.

Your Warden is a douchebag and a hypocrite.

Of course, you are free to play a douchebag and a hypocrite.

How was my Warden being a hypocrite? I was in no authority to kill Loghain - that was up to either the monarch or the Landsmeet to decide. Likewise, when Anora decided to execute Alistair, she was within her legal rights to do so. I was in no position to overrule the queen. I might have such over everyone else as an HN Warden, but that's where his power stops.

And yeah, I may have killed others for less, but few of them surrendered.

[MKDAWUSS]

ArawnNox wrote...

I can't really understand wanting to lop off Alistair's head at that point either. Even if you have a real bastard of a Grey Warden who antagonizes the whole party, you'd have to be especially heartless to kill someone you traveled with for so long who stuck with you, as hard to get along with as you were.

There's also the meta-game reason of "His departure lines are hideously OOC." All of a sudden the Blight becomes optional for him, and he no longer gives a damn if the world is conquered by darkspawn.

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

CalJones wrote...

It may be more practical to take the existing warden over the potential warden, but...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I wont murder someone in cold blood in front of his daughter no less, just to make someone happy.

This.

It's a shame as I like Alistair and he does feel like a friend (I much prefer the bromance to the romance, honestly) but given the choice of splattering Loghain's blood all over Anora or losing a friendship, I'll lose the friendship every time.

Anora can take it.  Besides, with Daddy dead she'll get a chance to really rule (if you put her on the throne).  She's just not honest enough to thank you for it.

Whether or not Anora can 'take it' is not the issue here. It's someone who has a moral problem with killing someone in front of their daughter. The way it's done in game where she's splattered with his blood makes it even more gruesome. Yes, killing Loghain is one way to get him out of the way so Anora can rule. She'd obviously rather he be made a GW. Isn't the mere fact she doesn't call you out over it enough? You want a thank-you that you murdered her father? That's rather heartless.

[Costin_Razvan]

ArawnNox wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Where is this said FF Arawn? Would like to read it

"Quietly leaves the Loghain debate."

I'm only about 5 pages into writing it and its starting with the Origin. I'm not sur where to post it when I'm done with the first chapter.

www.fanfiction.net? Then make a thread on the community section here?

  Your Warden is a douchebag and a hypocrite.

Oh and betraying your best friends ( Wynne, Warden and maybe Leliana )+ your ENTIRE ****ING COUNTRY+ The order of the grey wardens is not being a douchebag and a hypocrite, because that is EXACTLY what Alistair does, but if that can be rationalized all away then so can the Warden's decision to loop his head off.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 août 2010 - 11:03 .

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

CalJones wrote...

It may be more practical to take the existing warden over the potential warden, but...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I wont murder someone in cold blood in front of his daughter no less, just to make someone happy.

This.

It's a shame as I like Alistair and he does feel like a friend (I much prefer the bromance to the romance, honestly) but given the choice of splattering Loghain's blood all over Anora or losing a friendship, I'll lose the friendship every time.

Anora can take it.  Besides, with Daddy dead she'll get a chance to really rule (if you put her on the throne).  She's just not honest enough to thank you for it.

Whether or not Anora can 'take it' is not the issue here. It's someone who has a moral problem with killing someone in front of their daughter. The way it's done in game where she's splattered with his blood makes it even more gruesome. Yes, killing Loghain is one way to get him out of the way so Anora can rule. She'd obviously rather he be made a GW. Isn't the mere fact she doesn't call you out over it enough? You want a thank-you that you murdered her father? That's rather heartless.

I was being a little facetious.  But I do think that if you let Loghain live and put Anora on the throne, I think the PC has adequate reason to fear that Loghain will still be the de facto ruler of Ferelden.

[nos_astra]

Anora is a stranger to you. She wants to be a queen. Her father deserves punishment and obviously harsh punishment as she accepts possibly fatal recruitment. Why on earth would you risk ending the Blight because you're getting overly touchy and concered about Anora's well-being all of a sudden?



She's playing with lives. When you slaughter your way through the Arl of Denerim's estate you kill many many soldiers for what Loghain may tell you the joy of being rescued, how many families are going to suffer because the husbands and fathers died at your hand?