1092 réponses à ce sujet

[MKDAWUSS]

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

CalJones wrote...

It may be more practical to take the existing warden over the potential warden, but...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I wont murder someone in cold blood in front of his daughter no less, just to make someone happy.

This.

It's a shame as I like Alistair and he does feel like a friend (I much prefer the bromance to the romance, honestly) but given the choice of splattering Loghain's blood all over Anora or losing a friendship, I'll lose the friendship every time.

Anora can take it.  Besides, with Daddy dead she'll get a chance to really rule (if you put her on the throne).  She's just not honest enough to thank you for it.

Whether or not Anora can 'take it' is not the issue here. It's someone who has a moral problem with killing someone in front of their daughter. The way it's done in game where she's splattered with his blood makes it even more gruesome. Yes, killing Loghain is one way to get him out of the way so Anora can rule. She'd obviously rather he be made a GW. Isn't the mere fact she doesn't call you out over it enough? You want a thank-you that you murdered her father? That's rather heartless.

I was being a little facetious.  But I do think that if you let Loghain live and put Anora on the throne, I think the PC has adequate reason to fear that Loghain will still be the de facto ruler of Ferelden.

And you'd feel safer with Eamon being the de facto ruler of Ferelden with Alistair at the throne? It's kind of a "pick your poison" situation. Both Alistair and Anora would have that element to them.

[MKDAWUSS]

klarabella wrote...
She's playing with lives. When you slaughter your way through the Arl of Denerim's estate you kill many many soldiers for what Loghain may tell you the joy of being rescued, how many families are going to suffer because the husbands and fathers died at your hand?

I don't think she was scared of Loghain as much as she was scared of Howe. I think Howe would have been cold (and bold) enough to kill her and somehow place it on the Wardens. Howe's treatment of her is vastly different from Loghain's.

[Sarah1281]

klarabella wrote...

Anora is a stranger to you. She wants to be a queen. Her father deserves punishment and obviously harsh punishment as she accepts possibly fatal recruitment. Why on earth would you risk ending the Blight because you're getting overly touchy and concered about Anora's well-being all of a sudden?

She's playing with lives. When you slaughter your way through the Arl of Denerim's estate you kill many many soldiers for what Loghain may tell you the joy of being rescued, how many families are going to suffer because the husbands and fathers died at your hand?

Obviously no one who thinks recruiting Loghain will damage their ability to end the Blight makes that decision. And it's a little hypocritical for people who in any way use Alistair's feelings as a reason to kill Loghain to dismiss people who in any way consider Anora's feeling as a - not the but a - reason not to. And it doesn't even have to be concern for Anora-the-stranger anyway but 'you know, as a point of principle I am against slaughtering people in front of their children, particularly the way the game forces you to do it.'

[ArawnNox]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

klarabella wrote...
She's playing with lives. When you slaughter your way through the Arl of Denerim's estate you kill many many soldiers for what Loghain may tell you the joy of being rescued, how many families are going to suffer because the husbands and fathers died at your hand?

I don't think she was scared of Loghain as much as she was scared of Howe. I think Howe would have been cold (and bold) enough to kill her and somehow place it on the Wardens. Howe's treatment of her is vastly different from Loghain's.

How even put forward the idea of killing Anora as well, according to Loghain.

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
And it's a little hypocritical for people who in any way use Alistair's feelings as a reason to kill Loghain to dismiss people who in any way consider Anora's feeling as a - not the but a - reason not to.

Not really. Alistair is someone who will be loyal to you no matter what (at least until this point). There's a certain attachment that comes with fighting alongside someone having them save you and saving them in return. That this happens on a regular basis for over a year means you are likely close to one another. 

Anora doesn't have that.

So it's favoritism? It's not hypocritical for you to justify killing Loghain to appease Alistair and think that not wanting to kill Loghain in front of Anora is stupid because you barely know her because you like Alistair better? I can't agree with that.

 And it doesn't even have to be concern for Anora-the-stranger anyway but 'you know, as a point of principle I am against slaughtering people in front of their children, particularly the way the game forces you to do it.'

I don't understand what you mean by this. Would it be better if Loghain were executed at a later date? The end result is the same.

Yes, yes it would. Please keep in mind that this was not the deciding factor in me sparing him, but doing it right there was appalling. At least Alistair, when he's executed, isn't gutted right there in front of everybody.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 août 2010 - 12:56 .

[maxernst]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

CalJones wrote...

It may be more practical to take the existing warden over the potential warden, but...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
I wont murder someone in cold blood in front of his daughter no less, just to make someone happy.

This.

It's a shame as I like Alistair and he does feel like a friend (I much prefer the bromance to the romance, honestly) but given the choice of splattering Loghain's blood all over Anora or losing a friendship, I'll lose the friendship every time.

Anora can take it.  Besides, with Daddy dead she'll get a chance to really rule (if you put her on the throne).  She's just not honest enough to thank you for it.

Whether or not Anora can 'take it' is not the issue here. It's someone who has a moral problem with killing someone in front of their daughter. The way it's done in game where she's splattered with his blood makes it even more gruesome. Yes, killing Loghain is one way to get him out of the way so Anora can rule. She'd obviously rather he be made a GW. Isn't the mere fact she doesn't call you out over it enough? You want a thank-you that you murdered her father? That's rather heartless.

I was being a little facetious.  But I do think that if you let Loghain live and put Anora on the throne, I think the PC has adequate reason to fear that Loghain will still be the de facto ruler of Ferelden.

And you'd feel safer with Eamon being the de facto ruler of Ferelden with Alistair at the throne? It's kind of a "pick your poison" situation. Both Alistair and Anora would have that element to them.

I'd feel safer with almost anybody the de facto ruler than Loghain, other than Branka.

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

Yes, yes it would. Please keep in mind that this was not the deciding factor in me sparing him, but doing it right there was appalling. At least Alistair, when he's executed, isn't gutted right there in front of everybody.

I understand that it is only part of the reason for sparing him. I just don't understand why killing him in front of Anora right then would be worse then killing him some days later at a public execution which she would likely be at.

Less chance of being splattered with his blood which has got to be highly traumatizing. I mean, she nearly passes out and it can't be for effect as that's not the impression of a strong, capable Queen she's trying to project.

[maxernst]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

klarabella wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...
So off he goes to the execution chamber.

I will never get that kind of reasoning.

Loghain did commit crimes, serious ones by overriding the Landsmeet and trying to grab power or not following Cailan's orders. That's treason and punishable by death. You've killed so many people for less without a trial but all of a sudden you are concerned about it?

And subsequently allow an innocent man to be killed, the very one who stood by your side and helped you get that far.
Good thing it's not you who decides, but Anora.

Your Warden is a douchebag and a hypocrite.

Of course, you are free to play a douchebag and a hypocrite.

How was my Warden being a hypocrite? I was in no authority to kill Loghain - that was up to either the monarch or the Landsmeet to decide. Likewise, when Anora decided to execute Alistair, she was within her legal rights to do so. I was in no position to overrule the queen. I might have such over everyone else as an HN Warden, but that's where his power stops.

And yeah, I may have killed others for less, but few of them surrendered.

By invoking the right of conscription, you expressly prevent the Landsmeet from deciding Loghain's fate.  Not to mention the fact that you've already claimed the right to choose the monarch, which is a much larger decision than the fate of one man.

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Yes, yes it would. Please keep in mind that this was not the deciding factor in me sparing him, but doing it right there was appalling. At least Alistair, when he's executed, isn't gutted right there in front of everybody.

I understand that it is only part of the reason for sparing him. I just don't understand why killing him in front of Anora right then would be worse then killing him some days later at a public execution which she would likely be at.

Less chance of being splattered with his blood which has got to be highly traumatizing. I mean, she nearly passes out and it can't be for effect as that's not the impression of a strong, capable Queen she's trying to project.

Actually, I thought she behaved with remarkable dignity through it.  It was one of the reasons put her on the throne. I'll admit I felt  badly about doublecrossing her after she helped me win the Landsmeet., but not badly enough to risk trusting Loghain.  I was thinking more along the lines of imprisonment or  sending him to the Legion of the Dead when I said I would spare him if I could.

[Sarah1281]

Would the reaction have been any better if Loghain's execution were postponed a few days? True there wouldn't have been blood but the few days to gather her feelings and prepare herself for the shock would (at least in my opinion) not done much to soften the shock. She is very attached to Loghain.

I feel that it would have been better. She would have gotten more of a chance to say goodbye, she wouldn't have been quite so close to it, and she would be able to resign herself to the idea.

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Would the reaction have been any better if Loghain's execution were postponed a few days? True there wouldn't have been blood but the few days to gather her feelings and prepare herself for the shock would (at least in my opinion) not done much to soften the shock. She is very attached to Loghain.

I feel that it would have been better. She would have gotten more of a chance to say goodbye, she wouldn't have been quite so close to it, and she would be able to resign herself to the idea.

I think the manner of his death is really Loghain's fault, not my PC.  He could have bowed to the will of the Landsmeet, stepped down as regent and face trial from treason.  Maybe he would have been acquitted.  Maybe he would have been executed at a later date.  The duel was his choice.

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Would the reaction have been any better if Loghain's execution were postponed a few days? True there wouldn't have been blood but the few days to gather her feelings and prepare herself for the shock would (at least in my opinion) not done much to soften the shock. She is very attached to Loghain.

I feel that it would have been better. She would have gotten more of a chance to say goodbye, she wouldn't have been quite so close to it, and she would be able to resign herself to the idea.

I think the manner of his death is really Loghain's fault, not my PC.  He could have bowed to the will of the Landsmeet, stepped down as regent and face trial from treason.  Maybe he would have been acquitted.  Maybe he would have been executed at a later date.  The duel was his choice.

The duel happens if you lose, too. If you lose the Landsmeet, should Loghain declare himself a traitor and accept execution? 

[TJPags]

maxernst wrote...
By invoking the right of conscription, you expressly prevent the Landsmeet from deciding Loghain's fate.  Not to mention the fact that you've already claimed the right to choose the monarch, which is a much larger decision than the fate of one man.

Well, let's remember - Loghain ignored the will of the nobles from the beginning, and ignored the will of the Landsmeet (assuming you won the vote) to force a duel in the first place.

Plus, everyone seems fine with the PC Warden being the deciding factor on who gets the throne, as they also go right along with your decision to engage in the duel. 

So, I don't think it's that big a deal that you take on the role of Judge for Loghain - far as I can see, the entire Landsmeet yielded whatever power it had a long time ago.  SOMEONE has to take charge, and they all want it to be you.

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Would the reaction have been any better if Loghain's execution were postponed a few days? True there wouldn't have been blood but the few days to gather her feelings and prepare herself for the shock would (at least in my opinion) not done much to soften the shock. She is very attached to Loghain.

I feel that it would have been better. She would have gotten more of a chance to say goodbye, she wouldn't have been quite so close to it, and she would be able to resign herself to the idea.

I think the manner of his death is really Loghain's fault, not my PC.  He could have bowed to the will of the Landsmeet, stepped down as regent and face trial from treason.  Maybe he would have been acquitted.  Maybe he would have been executed at a later date.  The duel was his choice.

The duel happens if you lose, too. If you lose the Landsmeet, should Loghain declare himself a traitor and accept execution? 

I suppose if you lost the Landsmeet, then your only authority comes through force of arms and you probably should spare Loghain if you win the duel.  It didn't come up in my playthroughs, but, really, I think the whole duel after the Landsmeet is kind of hokey.  I assume you mean should the PC accept execution?  Honestly, I don't see any real case for treason on the part of the PC.  You could be put on trial for Howe's death, but if you're an HN, you might get off.

[FiliusMartis]

As a small aside I would like to point out that, although it is a gameplay issue, should you lose the duel, Loghain kills the warden and the journey ends. Again, I recognize it's a gameplay issue, but, to some extent, so is the fact that the game forces you to spatter blood on Anora should you wish to execute Loghain rather than doing so privately or condemning him to imprisonment or something.



Just a thought.

[CalJones]

The games is set up that way to be as dramatic as possible.

A lot of people would have liked the option to do something else with Loghain - let him live, but not as a warden; imprison him; defer his execution; put him on trial, etc. But we're stuck with what the game gives us. He dies or becomes a warden, and Alistair stays or leaves to make room for him. Them's the breaks.

As far as killing him goes, it's less about what he's done and what he deserves than about what you are prepared to do. True, my wardens have killed a lot of people previously, but in battle, and in self defence. Where possble, I often spare them. I feel bad about killing a lot of them - the guards at the estate in Slim Coudry's final quest, misguided Ser Landry (I usualy talk him out of that), the guards who show up with Cauthrien at Howe's (I have fought before, but in most playthroughs I surrender), and so forth. Those people could be fighting the Blight instead.

For me, accepting Loghain's surrender is a no brainer.

[Bahlgan]

Should he be blamed for leaving all of Ferelden to die because he can't look past his hatred of one man? Yes, yes he should. If he can't serve with you and Loghain it's not like anyone would have had too much of a problem with 'Warden, I'm leaving your group to sever with the Redcliffe forces.' The minute his hatred leads him to let the entire country fall, something that Loghain himself would never dream of doing, he crosses the line and loses not only all moral superiority but all sympathy from me.

Sarah, look, you seem to be completely contradicting yourself at this point of the debate. Loghain WOULD dream of leaving his country men to die, I mean he actually DID, Ostagar, which you know. Alistair will have done the same as Loghain, sure, but please don't make a false claim about Loghain here, he is guilty and he DID leave Ferelden's finest to die.

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

Should he be blamed for leaving all of Ferelden to die because he can't look past his hatred of one man? Yes, yes he should. If he can't serve with you and Loghain it's not like anyone would have had too much of a problem with 'Warden, I'm leaving your group to sever with the Redcliffe forces.' The minute his hatred leads him to let the entire country fall, something that Loghain himself would never dream of doing, he crosses the line and loses not only all moral superiority but all sympathy from me.

Sarah, look, you seem to be completely contradicting yourself at this point of the debate. Loghain WOULD dream of leaving his country men to die, I mean he actually DID, Ostagar, which you know. Alistair will have done the same as Loghain, sure, but please don't make a false claim about Loghain here, he is guilty and he DID leave Ferelden's finest to die.

I'm not contradicting myself, you're misunderstanding me. I said that Loghain would never leave the entire country to die. The men at Ostagar? Not the entire country. I didn't say that Loghain would never leave anyone who happened to be from Ferelden or who was part of the army to die. I said the entire country. Notice how Loghain, after Ostagar, doesn't up and leave. He may spread himself too thin with the civil war and obsessing over the border but he also tries to deal with the darkspawn.

Saying that Loghain would not have left the country to die by just up and quitting the entire Blight (not quitting the field, quitting the BLIGHT) and leaving is not a false claim. You know why? Because he never does. Alistair will.

Edit:
 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 août 2010 - 06:35 .

[phaonica]

Bahlgan wrote...

Should he be blamed for leaving all of Ferelden to die because he can't look past his hatred of one man? Yes, yes he should. If he can't serve with you and Loghain it's not like anyone would have had too much of a problem with 'Warden, I'm leaving your group to sever with the Redcliffe forces.' The minute his hatred leads him to let the entire country fall, something that Loghain himself would never dream of doing, he crosses the line and loses not only all moral superiority but all sympathy from me.

Sarah, look, you seem to be completely contradicting yourself at this point of the debate. Loghain WOULD dream of leaving his country men to die, I mean he actually DID, Ostagar, which you know. Alistair will have done the same as Loghain, sure, but please don't make a false claim about Loghain here, he is guilty and he DID leave Ferelden's finest to die.

I think Loghain thought that what he was doing was in Ferelden's best interest. He may have abandoned *a* fight but he intended to regroup and keep fighting it. Alistair, on the other hand, puts his revenge against Loghain as a higher priority than ending the civil war and fighting the Blight.

[ashwind]

I think Loghain is more concern about the Orlesian than anything else and hence his actions and decisions. After all, nobody really knew that it take a Warden to slay the Archdemon and destroy its soul. So Loghain would believe that he can deal with the Blight just like how he deal with all his other enemies.

Loghain left all those people to die because he sees a "larger" danger - the Orlesians. It is not uncommon in history for great generals to make "tactical" sacrifices. In WWII (forgot which town), it is said that the British learn about a German pending attack on a town but because they need to keep their sources/spies safe and do not rouse the suspicions of the Germans that they have been infiltrated, the British actually sacrifice the town for tactical and strategic reasons for the "greater benefit" of the war.

Loghain gracefully accepted his fate stating that he can face the Maker now knowing that Feralden is in the capable hands of the Warden after his defeat. his actions maybe less than perfect but his intentions are understandable. He is not more evil than the Grey Wardens because the Wardens too will do anything necessary to fight the Blight.

Also, if it were not Cailan giving Loghain the orders in Ostegar but Meric, I truly believe that Loghain would not have retreated his men.

I think the option of picking Loghain is a logical one, you actually save Alistair's hide and let the hero of river dale die saving his beloved country and a chance to redeem himself. After all his only true crime is his obsessive love for Feralden.

I do not think that Loghain is evil, he is just doing what he thinks is best and his willingness to accept the consequences of his actions actually makes him honorable. As a leader of men, sometimes you have to make tough decisions. His greatest error would be to heed the "advise" of Howe who only suggest things that will give him more wealth and power. How I wish there is an option to Torture Howe to death

Loghain: "What I did is in the best interest of Feralden! Meric is lucky to not live to see how his son is going to turn Fereldan over to those who has enslaved us for so long."

Modifié par ashwind, 11 août 2010 - 06:34 .

[Bahlgan]

phaonica wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...

Should he be blamed for leaving all of Ferelden to die because he can't look past his hatred of one man? Yes, yes he should. If he can't serve with you and Loghain it's not like anyone would have had too much of a problem with 'Warden, I'm leaving your group to sever with the Redcliffe forces.' The minute his hatred leads him to let the entire country fall, something that Loghain himself would never dream of doing, he crosses the line and loses not only all moral superiority but all sympathy from me.

Sarah, look, you seem to be completely contradicting yourself at this point of the debate. Loghain WOULD dream of leaving his country men to die, I mean he actually DID, Ostagar, which you know. Alistair will have done the same as Loghain, sure, but please don't make a false claim about Loghain here, he is guilty and he DID leave Ferelden's finest to die.

I think Loghain thought that what he was doing was in Ferelden's best interest. He may have abandoned *a* fight but he intended to regroup and keep fighting it. Alistair, on the other hand, puts his revenge against Loghain as a higher priority than ending the civil war and fighting the Blight.

As he should. Granted the darkspawn are a bigger plan, Loghain is stopping them from reaching that goal. He has the right of way in this, as does anyone else Loghain tries to kill.

@Sarah, thanks for the lovely picture of me. You stalking me or something? Also a Loghain trait, one which will be your downfall, just like the one he endured when I executed him.

I am not misunderstanding you either. But the gravity of the situation doesn't change. Loghain had left so many soldiers to die, so many experienced ones, he practically sacrificed Ferelden's only active form of defense, therefore all relative in the end sacrificing the good of the folk of the kingdom. It's a snowball effect, sure he didn't directly sacrifice the kindgom itself; at least not immediately. But slaying the Bannorn, who could have been persuaded to fight if he weren't so selfish for the throne, would have been more than willing to join him, even wastefully, against the darkspawn. But no, he never thought of anyone truly except having been the leader of his own army. A little greed can go a long way after all.

You are standing up for Loghain, even though he commits a greater sin than the one Alistair does; Alistair has not killed anyone for leaving. Besides, he was EXILED by Queen Anora as well as he was told not to come back to Ferelden; he didn't leave on his own accord. After all, does Alistair's leave really put all of us in jeopardy? I don't know if you are assuming that there would be great casualties due to Alistair's leave I am hoping that you are not under estimating the Warden now, that would be such a shame to place the epic character underground here.

To make things fair though, and to sum things up of my personal opinion, I do think that Alistair is being whiny by leaving, but he is perfectly justified and has more than the right to feel betrayed by the Warden choosing to spare Loghain, especially when he/she does it without considering Alistair. Let's face it, Alistair has a kinder touch and one which can verily help the kingdom prosper if put on the throne. If one supports Loghain, than I will blatantly and brutally be honest in my call considering that individual to be pragmatic and/or possibly of the evil alignment.

I think Loghain is more concern about the Orlesian than anything else and hence his actions and decisions. After all, nobody really knew that it take a Warden to slay the Archdemon and destroy its soul. So Loghain would believe that he can deal with the Blight just like how he deal with all his other enemies.

Even still, the darkspawn was (by a million percent) a much more immediate threat than the Orlesians, who were not even setting foot in Ferelden at the moment. To chase down two rabbits at the same time, instead of focusing on a single rabbit at a time, is a fool's errand, and one which soooooo many people are willing to overlook. All for a little opportunity and perhaps a good coin in their pocket. Truly are there so many who do not care for good will and innovation?

Modifié par Bahlgan, 11 août 2010 - 07:48 .