1092 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

Bahlgan wrote...

I think Loghain thought that what he was doing was in Ferelden's best interest. He may have abandoned *a* fight but he intended to regroup and keep fighting it. Alistair, on the other hand, puts his revenge against Loghain as a higher priority than ending the civil war and fighting the Blight.

As he should. Granted the darkspawn are a bigger plan, Loghain is stopping them from reaching that goal. He has the right of way in this, as does anyone else Loghain tries to kill.

Um, no he shouldn't. Alistair's revenge is not more important than fighting the Blight. Even if he thinks that sparing Loghain is a bad idea and is unjust and is a disgrace, he is honoring nothing but his own desire for revenge when he abandons the fight against the Blight.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bahlgan wrote...

To make things fair though, and to sum things up of my personal opinion, I do think that Alistair is being whiny by leaving, but he is perfectly justified and has more than the right to feel betrayed by the Warden choosing to spare Loghain, especially when he/she does it without considering Alistair. Let's face it, Alistair has a kinder touch and one which can verily help the kingdom prosper if put on the throne. If one supports Loghain, than I will blatantly and brutally be honest in my call considering that individual to be pragmatic and/or possibly of the evil alignment.

*laugh*  Clearly you haven't considered all the reasons why a PC would spare Loghain if that's 'your call'.

Your view is extremely limited and completely wrong.

[Bahlgan]

phaonica wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...

I think Loghain thought that what he was doing was in Ferelden's best interest. He may have abandoned *a* fight but he intended to regroup and keep fighting it. Alistair, on the other hand, puts his revenge against Loghain as a higher priority than ending the civil war and fighting the Blight.

As he should. Granted the darkspawn are a bigger plan, Loghain is stopping them from reaching that goal. He has the right of way in this, as does anyone else Loghain tries to kill.

Um, no he shouldn't. Alistair's revenge is not more important than fighting the Blight. Even if he thinks that sparing Loghain is a bad idea and is unjust and is a disgrace, he is honoring nothing but his own desire for revenge when he abandons the fight against the Blight.

As a human noble, how is my vengeance against Arl Howe any more important than Alistair's revenge against Loghain, that I deserve to kill Howe and not have Alistair slay Loghain? As a PC, my Warden is NO more important than Alistair that I deserve my vengeance and he shouldn't, but there it is. Before you consider your stance, firstly consider the human noble, if you haven't already. And yes, in real life I would have killed Loghain anyway, for all the attempts he makes trying to kill me, I am in too much pressure to even think or feel rationally. So, in a way, he killed himself by fueling rage.

Alistair's wanting Loghain to pay for his sins also goes hand in hand with the Blight for some, including myself. Loghain was a mere obstacle, putting all feelings aside, and thus he needed to be eliminated to prevent my Warden from rising as the commander.

*laugh*  Clearly you haven't considered all the reasons why a PC would spare Loghain if that's 'your call'. 

Your view is extremely limited and completely wrong.

Oh!! Smilies!! Smilies are supposed to eliminate the hostility towards myself from your harsh view on my judgment. I feel all warm inside because of your smile. Like the kiss of death, so lovely in appearance and yet so venomous on the inside. Apparently, you wound me with your words of kindness.

Seriously, what makes you honestly believe I haven't considered Loghain's redemption? It's not that I cannot see, I just don't care to see. None of them are anywhere near important enough except the "he deserves redemption" theory. Everything else is a shade under what I would call completely pragmatic. Can YOU think of ANY sort of positive reason other than the redemption chance to spare Loghain? Don't give me the romance option either please (I am not a PC fan, so I cannot download any of those mods. That option for any female Warden  I play is out of the question).

Anyway I am hitting bed now, I will check to see what other people have thrown straight up insults in my face for throwing rocks at Loghain. It's gonna be soo much fun awakening to people like you mocking me. I look forward to more of your smiles, by the way.

Here, I will send you one of my own 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 11 août 2010 - 08:34 .

[nos_astra]

phaonica wrote...
Um, no he shouldn't. Alistair's revenge is not more important than fighting the Blight. Even if he thinks that sparing Loghain is a bad idea and is unjust and is a disgrace, he is honoring nothing but his own desire for revenge when he abandons the fight against the Blight.

It's hard to tell justice from vengeance in a world like Thedas because it often seems to be the same. You pay for your crimes with blood.

Figting the Blight is your job. How you intend to do that is open but it doesn't mean whatever your choice is that it's the best course of action. At the Landsmeet you have the choice of which is the lesser evil: Listening to a Riordan and trading a young, experienced, trustworthy warrior for a man of dubious loyalty, well past his prime ... or killing your enemy, who's giving up the last second, in an admittedly not entirely heroic manner.

For players it's hard to see that neither choice is the right one because they are never truly in danger, sitting safely in front of their computer or console, knowing that whatever their choice they can't fail. The characters in the game aren't programmed that way.
Loghain is risking a lot by being stubborn to a point where almost the entire country is consumed by the Blight and a Civil War, weakened for years or even decades. Good intentions or not, his actions cost so many lives because he's unable to back down and admit that he's simply wrong.
Alistair believes in duty and justice but he's also emotional at that point and in his mind doing his duty and demanding justice are mutually exclusive. He's going to regret that deeply and it's possibly going to destroy him (unless he has a purpose that holds him up then he will probably spend his life doing his job, despising Anora and never truly forgiving the Warden).

But at the point at the Landsmeet your decision how you are going to stop the Blight is entirely open.

• Do you have any reason to trust Loghain?
• He's responsible for so much death and destruction, do you think he should escape immediate execution?
• How would you know that Anora is going to be splattered with his blood even more than the executioner himself? Would you expect her to stand so close? (I wouldn't, I think the blood splatter is overdone. And to be honest, watching her father die could be seen as a fitting punishment for her actions. She supported him when she should have tried harder to stop him.)
• As mentioned before, you have killed so many people at that time. Do you really think none of them asked for mercy just because game mechanics don't offer that option for most of them? Do you think your Warden is fit to decide who deserves to die without a trial as long as it's not about Loghain? Do you really rationalize all those deaths by claiming that they should have let you have your way?
• Is his Joining worth losing a brother-in-arms over him before you even know if Loghain will be in any condition to help you?

The point is: Just because your Warden makes a decision (and has to make one) doesn't mean this decision is indisputable. We had discussions about how killing Loghain without having the authoritiy to so is nothing to be proud of and vengeance (that is certainly also guiding your and Alistair's hand) is hollow. That doesn't mean the opposite decision to recruit a stranger on a whim when your comrade might have a point isn't equally debatable.

Edit: Just to make it clear. In my canon playthrough my Warden (HNF, romanced Alistair) does indeed spare Loghain and offer him redemption. She will never stop asking herself if she went to far, if she had a right to override Alistair just like that. She's too smart not to know that she risked a lot by doing so and that if things had gone wrong Ferelden would have paid for a moment of weakness when she could not accept her authority to be challenged.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2010 - 09:16 .

[phaonica]

Bahlgan wrote...

I am not misunderstanding you either. But the gravity of the situation doesn't change. Loghain had left so many soldiers to die, so many experienced ones, he practically sacrificed Ferelden's only active form of defense, therefore all relative in the end sacrificing the good of the folk of the kingdom. It's a snowball effect, sure he didn't directly sacrifice the kindgom itself; at least not immediately. But slaying the Bannorn, who could have been persuaded to fight if he weren't so selfish for the throne, would have been more than willing to join him, even wastefully, against the darkspawn. But no, he never thought of anyone truly except having been the leader of his own army. A little greed can go a long way after all.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Loghain took the bulk of the army with him. If Loghain had not taken the throne, the bannorn would not have been asked to fight because the Orlesian army would already be there, and Ferelden at it's mercy.

You are standing up for Loghain, even though he commits a greater sin than the one Alistair does; 

And I personally wouldn't execute Alistair for it, either. I'd give him a second chance, just like Loghain. My standing up for Loghain is independant of Alistair's walking out. I'd stand up for Loghain even if Alistair did decide to stay. It's not about who's sin is greater. I decided to spare Loghain before Alistair had even committed a "sin", and his threatening to walk out didn't persuade me to do otherwise.

Alistair has not killed anyone for leaving. Besides, he was EXILED by Queen Anora as well as he was told not to come back to Ferelden; he didn't leave on his own accord.

Could have fooled me. He said he quit the Wardens and he would leave Ferelden "gladly".
 

After all, does Alistair's leave really put all of us in jeopardy? I don't know if you are assuming that there would be great casualties due to Alistair's leave 

I didn't think his leaving significantly affected the fight against the Blight, no, because no one knew that Wardens were required at that time. However, I did think it was sorry of him to claim the high and honorable status of the Wardens, and then quit. I would have been fine with him accusing me of being a disgrace to the Wardens, but I don't agree with him having these grand expectations of me and then not be willing to live up to it himself.

To make things fair though, and to sum things up of my personal opinion, I do think that Alistair is being whiny by leaving, but he is perfectly justified and has more than the right to feel betrayed by the Warden choosing to spare Loghain, especially when he/she does it without considering Alistair. 

Consider Alistair's feelings or consider his argument? Because I do not believe that Alistair is the embodiment of the rational arguments against Loghain. His last words before executing Loghain are "Forget Maric. This is for Duncan." Or the way I hear it "Forget Ferelden, this is for Me." And just considering his feelings? No. His need for revenge is not enough to convince me to spare Loghain.

Let's face it, Alistair has a kinder touch and one which can verily help the kingdom prosper if put on the throne.

 A kinder touch does not necessarily lead to a prosperous kingdom. Why do you think so many people harden Alistair before putting him on the throne?

If one supports Loghain, than I will blatantly and brutally be honest in my call considering that individual to be pragmatic and/or possibly of the evil alignment.

I don't think that Loghain is evil, and I think executing him under the given circumstances is unnecessary, and also rather unjust to judge him on this one year and to not give him a second chance after a lifetime of service to Ferelden.

Even still, the darkspawn was (by a million percent) a much more immediate threat than the Orlesians, who were not even setting foot in Ferelden at the moment.

Um yeah, because he stopped them. They could have been a pretty immediate threat, too, if he hadn't pushed them back.

To chase down two rabbits at the same time, instead of focusing on a single rabbit at a time, is a fool's errand, and one which soooooo many people are willing to overlook. 

 I'm not overlooking it. I'm giving him another chance. The desire to give someone another chance is not evil.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bahlgan wrote...

*laugh*  Clearly you haven't considered all the reasons why a PC would spare Loghain if that's 'your call'. 

Your view is extremely limited and completely wrong.

Oh!! Smilies!! Smilies are supposed to eliminate the hostility towards myself from your harsh view on my judgment. I feel all warm inside because of your smile. Like the kiss of death, so lovely in appearance and yet so venomous on the inside. Apparently, you wound me with your words of kindness.

Oh, misinterpretation. I'm not smiling because I'm trying to eliminate hostility, but because I find you amusing. Your belief that my view on your judgement is harsh also brings a smile to my face. Weren't you advocating your right to brutal honesty a moment ago?

Seriously, what makes you honestly believe I haven't considered Loghain's redemption? It's not that I cannot see, I just don't care to see. None of them are anywhere near important enough except the "he deserves redemption" theory. Everything else is a shade under what I would call completely pragmatic. Can YOU think of ANY sort of positive reason other than the redemption chance to spare Loghain?

My favourite reason not to kill Loghain is because cutting his head off in front of his daughter is brutal and cruel.

Compassion and mercy are positive reasons to me.

Oh, and for you when you wake up (unless you are still lurking, as some people do when they say they've left)...

[nos_astra]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
My favourite reason not to kill Loghain is because cutting his head off in front of his daughter is brutal and cruel.

Yes, that's the world of Dragon Age, brutal and cruel. If it was possible to have Loghain formally executed Anora would certainly be there and watch. Nice of you to be so concerned for Anora's feelings but it's a bit of a stretch since you don't even know her.

It always seems a bit of player touchiness and metagaming overrides consistent characterization.

Compassion and mercy are positive reasons to me.

For you yes, but for you Warden only when convenient and cued by the scripts of the game. Yes, I understand you prefer to play a flawless hero who only defends herself but I don't think DA is scripted this way.

Ever wondered what happened to the survivors of Haven after you slaughtered the majority of the cultists? I guess, the children who lived there died, content to know that if their parents had not been so wrong and evil your flawless hero would have shown compassion and mercy. Damn the game mechanics.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2010 - 09:14 .

[phaonica]

Bahlgan wrote...

As a human noble, how is my vengeance against Arl Howe any more important than Alistair's revenge against Loghain, that I deserve to kill Howe and not have Alistair slay Loghain? As a PC, my Warden is NO more important than Alistair that I deserve my vengeance and he shouldn't, but there it is. Before you consider your stance, firstly consider the human noble, if you haven't already. 

I never claimed my revenge against Howe was more important. I never claimed that I "deserved" my revenge against Howe either. I was also forced to kill Howe, whether I could come up with a reason to spare him or not. Who is to say that one can't play a character who could have been talked down by a "revenge isn't the answer" speech from their party members, if that had been an option? Not everyone plays their Cousland utterly driven by revenge.

And yes, in real life I would have killed Loghain anyway, for all the attempts he makes trying to kill me, I am in too much pressure to even think or feel rationally. So, in a way, he killed himself by fueling rage.

I don't think it's that simple. Howe may have wanted to kill me for selfish reasons, but Loghain thought I was a threat to the nation, and I can see how he might have come to that conclusion, given his history with the Wardens. I think that Loghain's reason to want me dead is a more acceptable reason than the various assassins who could care less and are "just doing their job".

Alistair's wanting Loghain to pay for his sins also goes hand in hand with the Blight for some, including myself. Loghain was a mere obstacle, putting all feelings aside, and thus he needed to be eliminated to prevent my Warden from rising as the commander.

So Loghain was an obstacle in your rise to power? 

Can YOU think of ANY sort of positive reason other than the redemption chance to spare Loghain?

Because of the service to the country during the Orlesian Occupation that earned him his Hero title. Because of every good quality that Maric saw in him. Because he ruled the kingdom just fine when Maric disappeared into the Deep Roads. Because he is still a capable soldier, and he does still have influence with the Landsmeet. Because, despite any mistakes he might have made, his loyalty was always to Ferelden first. Because Riordan hints that there might be a compelling Warden-based reason to put him through the Joining instead. Because sometimes it is "good" to spare a man who surrenders. Because when you do spare him, he's a decent person who *is* willing to put aside his differences and work with the Warden.

And before you say, "all that still just boils down to Redemption", I could argue that the other side "just boils down to Justice". And in the same way that Redemption alone isn't a good enough argument for you to spare him, Justice isn't a good enough argument for me to execute him.

But as you've said. It's not that you don't see these arguments, they just don't convince you. Which imo is fine, ultimately, because it's not as if I don't see the arguments against him, I just don't find that they're enough to convince me to execute him.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

[quote]klarabella wrote...

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
My favourite reason not to kill Loghain is because cutting his head off in front of his daughter is brutal and cruel.[/quote]
Yes, that's the world of Dragon Age, brutal and cruel. If it was possible to have Loghain formally executed Anora would certainly be there and watch. Nice of you to be so concerned for Anora's feelings but it's a bit of a stretch since you don't even know her.[/quote]

Um. Why do you have to know her? I'm not disputing the world is brutal and cruel, I was answering a question as to naming a reason for sparing Loghain that isn't motivated by pragmatism or a desire to redeem Loghain.

If you think it's a stretch for a stranger to have pity on an emeny for the sake of another human being, then I can only disagree. Sorry.

[quote]It always seems a bit of player touchiness and metagaming overrides consistent characterization.[/quote]

Not sure what you mean exactly, but I think it's off-topic to what I was discussing so no need to elaborate.

[quote][quote]Compassion and mercy are positive reasons to me.[/quote]
For you yes, but for you Warden only when convenient and cued by the scripts of the game. Yes, I understand you prefer to play a flawless hero who only defends herself but I don't think DA is scripted this way.[/quote][/quote]

I am not interested in defending my character(s), their choices or how anyone thinks I prefer to play (sorry, but I find that opinion a bit... presumptive).

Like I said, I was giving an alternate reason I consider non-evil and non-pragmatic, since it was stated no such reason *exists*.

[quote]Ever wondered what happened to the survivors of Haven after you slaughtered the majority of the cultists? I guess, the children who lived there died, content to know that if their parents had not been so wrong and evil your flawless hero would have shown compassion and mercy. Damn the game mechanics.[/quote]

See above expression of disinterest in going into this, as it is beside the point. If you want to discuss it elsewhere, by all means, but I get the feeling you're just trying to bait me. :/

Edit: typo

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 août 2010 - 09:43 .

[phaonica]

klarabella wrote...
Ever wondered what happened to the survivors of Haven after you slaughtered the majority of the cultists? I guess, the children who lived there died, content to know that if their parents had not been so wrong and evil your flawless hero would have shown compassion and mercy. Damn the game mechanics.

I do think about this sometimes, the Warden's hapless victims. I'm sure our Wardens could come up with all the reasons in the world why those people and others had to die "for the greater good." I would hope that "I was *trying* to defend Ferelden" would be a reasonable argument against my execution, but clearly this isn't a valid reason to some.

[Ianthia]

Bahlgan wrote...

. Can YOU think of ANY sort of positive reason other than the redemption chance to spare Loghain? Don't give me the romance option either please (I am not a PC fan, so I cannot download any of those mods. That option for any female Warden  I play is out of the question).

Hey not fair! I thought I was being nice

Seriously though...

I thought of it this way for my HNF (with the loghain warden scenario)

- I didn't feel Alistairs experience in battle or leadership of any sort matched that of Loghain. The man was a leader of armies - much more experience. My PC was the leader of her group through the whole game Alistair never seemed to make a move without telling him to do it. My PC didn't want to be the only one in charge of everything - she wanted someone who had experience in leading and could help and not just blindly follow her every move. (Yeah ok I get a lot more out of my games because I roleplay a story behind the scenes)

- As a noble my PC could have blamed everything - including the death of her family (though not directly) on Loghain but she didn't. Why should Alistairs hissy fit over Duncan and the wardens be more important in her choice than the loss of her family - blood relations for life - not Alistairs 6 months? If she was willing to put that aside for the good of the country couldn't Alistair have atleast not rage quit. People that seek personal vengence don't neccessarily make great kings...(This isnt meant as an arguement on how Alistair feels just my point of view)

- I don't blame Loghain for retreating at Ostagar. It was a hopeless battle - they all knew it. What is better - to make a strategic move and leave with the remaining forces alive OR stay and fight to the death (possibly) and lose all of the army? I see him as a leader who made a horrible decision that HAD to be made. I personally don't think Ferelden woud have been better off if the whole army had been wiped out.

- Do I think Anora or Alistair would be better? Alistair was not raised in leadership and diplomacy - he has NO experience in leading. He admits he can barely take care of himself lol Would it really be Alistair leading? Maybe he did well in the end - but you dont know that at the time. All you see is someone that has no experience and doesn't really want to do it in the first place. Anora would have been groomed for leadership from the start - wasn't she betrothed to Cailan? She knows the rules of leadership and diplomacy and she did stand up to her father. I think she is stronger than she is given credit for. (and she doesn't have the hatred of the Orlesians like her father so she is not totally his puppet)


So these were my reasons on that playthrough with no romance included :happy:

[nos_astra]

phaonica wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Ever wondered what happened to the survivors of Haven after you slaughtered the majority of the cultists? I guess, the children who lived there died, content to know that if their parents had not been so wrong and evil your flawless hero would have shown compassion and mercy. Damn the game mechanics.

I do think about this sometimes, the Warden's hapless victims. I'm sure our Wardens could come up with all the reasons in the world why those people and others had to die "for the greater good." I would hope that "I was *trying* to defend Ferelden" would be a reasonable argument against my execution, but clearly this isn't a valid reason to some.

Very interesting.

Would your Warden be ready to die for their actions if things went wrong? Knowing that they did everything they could but failing eventually? Would your Warden reason that they were right to kill because of the Greater Good or would they willingly meet their fate?

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2010 - 10:36 .

[nos_astra]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
See above expression of disinterest in going into this, as it is beside the point. If you want to discuss it elsewhere, by all means, but I get the feeling you're just trying to bait me. :/

Bait you to do what?

I'm just offering a different viewpoint. I spend a lot of time thinking about what would you do at the Landsmeet if you were a real human instead of a generic hero. Not because I want to annoy you but because I feel there's a difference. The game has some limitations regarding the characterization of the Warden, I think.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2010 - 10:48 .

[nhsk]

Offering Loghain redemption is like forgiving Judas, and we all know which circle of hell he burns in, right?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

klarabella wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
See above expression of disinterest in going into this, as it is beside the point. If you want to discuss it elsewhere, by all means, but I get the feeling you're just trying to bait me. :/

Bait you to do what?

I don't know. Having a hunch doesn't mean I can read minds over the internet (although that would be cool at times).

I'm just offering a different viewpoint. I spend a lot of time thinking about what would you do at the Landsmeet if you were a real human instead of a generic hero. Not because I want to annoy you but because I feel there's a difference. The game has some limitations regarding the characterization of the Warden, I think.

Well, I agree a real person would behave differently to any of our Wardens. Game limitations don't allow that. Even in an open role-playing situation you're looking at situations from the outside, and you have plenty more time to decide what you do/say, whereas life moves a great deal faster. At the Landsmeet, plenty of real people wouldn't have been able to handle the political debate because public speaking is freakin' *scary*

As for Loghain, if I was at the Landsmeet and if compromise was impossible, Alistair would be king, Loghain dead at his hand (despite my protests), and if there was a romance it'd be over by my choice (no matter how justified, the force of Alistair's vehemence really did shock *me*).

[DragonRacer13]

klarabella wrote...

phaonica wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Ever wondered what happened to the survivors of Haven after you slaughtered the majority of the cultists? I guess, the children who lived there died, content to know that if their parents had not been so wrong and evil your flawless hero would have shown compassion and mercy. Damn the game mechanics.

I do think about this sometimes, the Warden's hapless victims. I'm sure our Wardens could come up with all the reasons in the world why those people and others had to die "for the greater good." I would hope that "I was *trying* to defend Ferelden" would be a reasonable argument against my execution, but clearly this isn't a valid reason to some.

Very interesting.

Would your Warden be ready to die for their actions if things went wrong? Knowing that they did everything they could but failing eventually? Would your Warden reason that they were right to kill because of the Greater Good or would they willingly meet their fate?

Now THIS is truly getting interesting. Considering you describe some of the nasty actions the Warden engages in for the sake of Ferelden and the world, in the name of the "greater good" to stop the Blight... even if some decisions are seemingly evil or pragmatic (or seemingly inescapable, such as the slaughtering of Haven)... that description of the Warden doesn't sound that much different from most people's descriptions of LOGHAIN.

So how can my Warden judge the man when, ultimately, the things my Warden has done throughout the game for the "greater good" make him/her not that much different from the terrible things Loghain did, thinking he was doing what was best for Ferelden and its continued existence/freedom? A bit like looking into the mirror and wondering if that changes your opinions at all… of Loghain and/or yourself.
 
*runs off to hide behind Loghain’s shield before flame war recommences*

[nos_astra]

DragonRacer13, this is what I was pointing at.

It's a common theme in novels that even with good intentions you're doing things that are punishable by death - because you still killed people without a trial, because you still betrayed your king, because you still cause the death of countless people. The heroic thing is not to hide behide the Greater Good but to accept that even with a good outcome you still did evil things because you broke the law and caused people to suffer and you might even deserve that. Two evils don't make one good after all. ;-)

Loghain is not that kind of guy, I think. The most despicable thing he says is: How dare you judge me. ... None of you have spilled blood for this country the way I have. Which is so infuriating because complete and utter nonsense as the Warden, Alistair and others did indeed spill their blood for their country up to this point.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 août 2010 - 01:58 .

[DragonRacer13]

klarabella wrote...

DragonRacer13, this is what I was pointing at.

It's a common theme in novels that even with good intentions you're doing things that are punishable by death - because you still killed people without a trial, because you still betrayed your king, because you still cause the death of countless people. The heroic thing is not to hide behide the Greater Good but to accept that even with a good outcome you still did evil things because you broke the law and caused people to suffer and you might even deserve that. Two evils don't make one good after all. ;-)

Soooo... I'm a bit confused now. I get that you're saying Loghain ought to accept his execution for his crimes, no matter his good intentions behind them (there IS, after all, the old saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions...), but would you say the same thing about the Warden? Or, at least, your Warden? My Warden has done terrible things, too, in the name of the greater good (slaughtered Haven when they attacked her after discovering blood altars and dead Redcliffe knights, carved a bloody path through the Arl of Denerim's estate in order to save Shianni and the rest of the wedding party being raped by Vaughan and his flunkies, tore through Howe's guards and Howe himself thinking she was rescuing Anora, I could go on and on)… but I’m not sure she’d necessarily be ready to just lay down and let whoever kill her in the name of justice. I imagine she feels terrible about some of the things she’s had to do – or at the very least has inner doubts about them – but I’m not sure how much different she would react when faced with death for her crimes, especially considering she’s still trying to stop the Blight by the time the Landsmeet occurs.

Loghain is not that kind of guy, I think. The most despicable thing he says is: How dare you judge me. ... None of you have spilled blood for this country the way I have. Which is so infuriating because complete and utter nonsense as the Warden, Alistair and others did indeed spill their blood for their country up to this point.

 
Mmm, I didn’t actually get offended by that. Sure, Loghain is not the ONLY person in the entirety of Ferelden to have spilt blood for that country, but considering the huge role he played in supporting Maric, leading Maric’s armies and basically being Maric’s right-hand man, I pretty much agree with the statement. If Maric hadn’t run head-long into Loghain all those years ago back in the woods, how different would Ferelden be today? Would it even be a free nation or would everyone still be forced to lick the Orlesians' bootheels and be expected to just take their abuse? For that, I do feel Loghain deserves respect. Whether or not one chooses to hate the man for his recent actions is up to the individual, but no one can argue against his contribution to Ferelden’s independence. But that is just my opinion, and I can fully admit I am biased towards the redemption route.

Modifié par DragonRacer13, 11 août 2010 - 06:17 .

[CalJones]

I take it that he is addressing the nobles at that point, and it's obviously in reference to Orlais. Some of those nobles may have fought back then but some will have sucked up to the Orlesians for a quiet life, and many will have been too young (Eamon, in fact, was one of them as he was sent to hide in the Free Marches with his brother - and he is now a mature man). Loghain's not wrong either - if you read TSR it seems like he's wounded on every other page.

This argument is a bit like splitting hairs, in any case.

[Sarah1281]

@Sarah, thanks for the lovely picture of me. You stalking me or something? Also a Loghain trait, one which will be your downfall, just like the one he endured when I executed him.



I am not misunderstanding you either. But the gravity of the situation doesn't change. Loghain had left so many soldiers to die, so many experienced ones, he practically sacrificed Ferelden's only active form of defense, therefore all relative in the end sacrificing the good of the folk of the kingdom. It's a snowball effect, sure he didn't directly sacrifice the kindgom itself; at least not immediately. But slaying the Bannorn, who could have been persuaded to fight if he weren't so selfish for the throne, would have been more than willing to join him, even wastefully, against the darkspawn. But no, he never thought of anyone truly except having been the leader of his own army. A little greed can go a long way after all.



You are standing up for Loghain, even though he commits a greater sin than the one Alistair does; Alistair has not killed anyone for leaving. Besides, he was EXILED by Queen Anora as well as he was told not to come back to Ferelden; he didn't leave on his own accord. After all, does Alistair's leave really put all of us in jeopardy? I don't know if you are assuming that there would be great casualties due to Alistair's leave I am hoping that you are not under estimating the Warden now, that would be such a shame to place the epic character underground here.



To make things fair though, and to sum things up of my personal opinion, I do think that Alistair is being whiny by leaving, but he is perfectly justified and has more than the right to feel betrayed by the Warden choosing to spare Loghain, especially when he/she does it without considering Alistair. Let's face it, Alistair has a kinder touch and one which can verily help the kingdom prosper if put on the throne. If one supports Loghain, than I will blatantly and brutally be honest in my call considering that individual to be pragmatic and/or possibly of the evil alignment.

I'm stalking you now? WTF are you even talking about?



For the record, I've never had Alistair killed or exiled. I ALWAYS make him Anora's King. I did not say 'Loghain hasn't ever done anything to damage Ferelden's ability to defend itself against the Blight.' You can argue against THAT particular strawman all you like. What I said is that Loghain, personally, never walked away and decided to let Ferelden deal with the Blight without him. Alistair will. That's ALL I'm saying and it's true. Loghain leave Ostagar. He doesn't leave Ostagar to go to a different country.



I'm not saying that the Blight can't abe defeated aby Alistair, it can and it has. I'm saying that Alistair really drops the ball morally here and he has no idea that you'll win, he has no idea that he's not really needed, he has no idea of anything except that Loghain is still alive and soon to be a Grey Warden. He abandons the country. Loghain, for all his flaws, never does that. Whatever mistakes he makes that hurts Ferelden, they do not include abandoning it utterly.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

You're seeing it as 'one man deserted' which, in and of itself, is a crime punishable by death as we've seen in Awakenings. I see it as 'one of three-hopefully-four GW who, while they may not know why they are needed, understand that they are necessary for ending the Blight walks out and if Ferelden falls...well, they shouldn't have spared Loghain.' Alistair may not be a part of any army and so it may not be legally wrong for him to leave but I feel it is morally wrong for him to do so. Just like pre-Landsmeet you don't have any legal obligations to stay in Ferelden and try to do the treaties but if you had just left for Orlais and Ferelden fell, you might not get courtmartialed but you would be morally responsible for your choice. The fact that Alistair leaves as one of the three GW (Loghain isn't even shown to be able to survive the Joining yet) means that Ferelden's chances are worse than they'd be without him. Notice how he never seems to question the fact that a GW has to end the Blight even though he doesn't know why. Even if GWs weren't needed, he believes otherwise. He believes he, Riordan, you, or Loghain would need to be the one to kill the Archdemon and he walks away. I don't see why you have a problem with holding someone morally responsible for that. [/quote]

Punishable by death? You mean like abandoning the King and his soldiers to die? Blaming another faction for killing the King? Selling men, women and children of the alienage into slavery? I'm certain those things are also punishable by death. In that context, especially considering that Alistair lost his family (the Wardens) to Loghain, I don't see why anyone thinks he's unreasonable in his refusal to work with Loghain, especially since he has no legal obligation to remain in Ferelden. Would you prefer he gave you an articulated argument for leaving, or for killing Loghain? It's personal for him - he lost people he saw as family, and he lost someone he saw as a father, the one person who seemed to care about him. His sister turns out to not give a damn about him, the only one he has left is the Warden, and he wants to avenge the death of his family. Yes, I can see reason to deny him that and remind a hardened Alistair that he has responsibilities to the throne, but I see no reason why he shouldn't feel like he was betrayed when he correctly was and want nothing to do withthe Warden and Loghain when this is done.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...

My thinking was, I spared Loghain for multiple reasons - one, he was a renowned general who basically did the wrong things for the right reasons; and two, it wasn't my place to kill him. That was for either the Landsmeet or the monarch to decide. And then Alistair of course loses it, and while I applaud him for standing up for once, even willing to use his heritage to his advantage now, I deny him the crown, because he's doing it out of anger and impulse, something that disqualifies someone for a seat with that much importance. Anora then makes a convincing argument about starting future rebellions (which could be possible - he'll have backing from Arl Eamon, and he'll have motivation from a living Loghain). So off he goes to the execution chamber.[/quote]

The entire point of the duel, though, is to decide Loghain's fate and who will lead the armies to reconcile the civil war that Loghain brought Ferelden into. You have every legal right to kill him because that's the entire point of the duel. Alistair being angry that the man who abandoned all the Grey Wardens he knew to die doesn't surprise me in the least. He knew these people, they were his family. Excusing Loghain's actions, including his slavery of elves to Tevinter blood mages, in order to make him a Warden is certainly pragmatic, but given that Alistair is privy to all the wrong Loghain has done, is it a surprise he wants nothing to do with this man? I'd say Anora doing nothing for the elves disqualifies her to rule alone for my Warden - five years of doing nothing for the alienage and letting a rapist like Vaughan run amok isn't exactly praise worthy. Obviously, Anora's administration of her realm (and no less the alienage in the city she lives in no less) makes it clear that another leader is necessary to help Ferelden's future.

[quote]klarabella wrote...

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
So off he goes to the execution chamber.[/quote]
I will never get that kind of reasoning.

Loghain did commit crimes, serious ones by overriding the Landsmeet and trying to grab power or not following Cailan's orders. That's treason and punishable by death. You've killed so many people for less without a trial but all of a sudden you are concerned about it?

And subsequently allow an innocent man to be killed, the very one who stood by your side and helped you get that far.
Good thing it's not you who decides, but Anora.

Your Warden is a douchebag and a hypocrite.

Of course, you are free to play a douchebag and a hypocrite.

[/quote]

Not to mention that, despite his own father Maric's affairs with elven women (and even having a son with Fiona, an elven mage no less), it's Alistair who does away with the discrimination practiced by the crown and brings the elves into the royal court and gives them equal footing and representation regardless of the race and gender of the Warden.

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...

[quote]klarabella wrote...

[quote]MKDAWUSS wrote...
So off he goes to the execution chamber.[/quote]
I will never get that kind of reasoning.

Loghain did commit crimes, serious ones by overriding the Landsmeet and trying to grab power or not following Cailan's orders. That's treason and punishable by death. You've killed so many people for less without a trial but all of a sudden you are concerned about it?

And subsequently allow an innocent man to be killed, the very one who stood by your side and helped you get that far.
Good thing it's not you who decides, but Anora.

Your Warden is a douchebag and a hypocrite.

Of course, you are free to play a douchebag and a hypocrite.

[/quote]

How was my Warden being a hypocrite? I was in no authority to kill Loghain - that was up to either the monarch or the Landsmeet to decide. Likewise, when Anora decided to execute Alistair, she was within her legal rights to do so. I was in no position to overrule the queen. I might have such over everyone else as an HN Warden, but that's where his power stops.

And yeah, I may have killed others for less, but few of them surrendered.

[/quote]

True, but if you're playing as a Warden from the city elf background, then his slavery of your family and friends made the decision for you. Playing as a Cousland and allowing Howe to murder your family, your lover, and take up the mantle of Teyrn of Highever, makes it your right to sever his head from his neck. If you're an elven mage like my cannon, then conspiring with an imbecile like Uldred and permitting family and friends from the home you are taken from (the Denerim Alienage) to be sold into slavery by Tevinter blood mages gives you all the authority you need.

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

So it's favoritism? It's not hypocritical for you to justify killing Loghain to appease Alistair and think that not wanting to kill Loghain in front of Anora is stupid because you barely know her because you like Alistair better? I can't agree with that.
[quote]

The favoritism of an elven mage who prefers a person who recognizes the hypocrisy of the Chantry and that elves should be treated as people over someone who did nothing to alieviate the povery of the alienage or the sickening antics of someone like Bann Vaughan... I suppose she might not have known what Vaughan was up to, but that simply brings up another problem with Anora's administration of her own city - despite the mass murder of guards at the castle and the presence of dead elves that I'm certain would be brought to someone's attention, she simply didn't care enough about the elves to even know why they'd riot in the first place. Killing a man who allowed elves to be sold into slavery and prefering a man who cares about your people over someone who clearly doesn't is something I can completely support.

[Sarah1281]

Sarah1281 wrote...
You're seeing it as 'one man deserted' which, in and of itself, is a crime punishable by death as we've seen in Awakenings. I see it as 'one of three-hopefully-four GW who, while they may not know why they are needed, understand that they are necessary for ending the Blight walks out and if Ferelden falls...well, they shouldn't have spared Loghain.' Alistair may not be a part of any army and so it may not be legally wrong for him to leave but I feel it is morally wrong for him to do so. Just like pre-Landsmeet you don't have any legal obligations to stay in Ferelden and try to do the treaties but if you had just left for Orlais and Ferelden fell, you might not get courtmartialed but you would be morally responsible for your choice. The fact that Alistair leaves as one of the three GW (Loghain isn't even shown to be able to survive the Joining yet) means that Ferelden's chances are worse than they'd be without him. Notice how he never seems to question the fact that a GW has to end the Blight even though he doesn't know why. Even if GWs weren't needed, he believes otherwise. He believes he, Riordan, you, or Loghain would need to be the one to kill the Archdemon and he walks away. I don't see why you have a problem with holding someone morally responsible for that. 

Punishable by death? You mean like abandoning the King and his soldiers to die? Blaming another faction for killing the King? Selling men, women and children of the alienage into slavery? I'm certain those things are also punishable by death. In that context, especially considering that Alistair lost his family (the Wardens) to Loghain, I don't see why anyone thinks he's unreasonable in his refusal to work with Loghain, especially since he has no legal obligation to remain in Ferelden. Would you prefer he gave you an articulated argument for leaving, or for killing Loghain? It's personal for him - he lost people he saw as family, and he lost someone he saw as a father, the one person who seemed to care about him. His sister turns out to not give a damn about him, the only one he has left is the Warden, and he wants to avenge the death of his family. Yes, I can see reason to deny him that and remind a hardened Alistair that he has responsibilities to the throne, but I see no reason why he shouldn't feel like he was betrayed when he correctly was and want nothing to do withthe Warden and Loghain when this is done.

I never said Loghain didn't do anything that could be punishable by death, just that Alistiar's leaving isn't squeaky-clean and righteous like some people are trying to claim. What I would prefer was for a non-King Alistair to, if he absolutely must, leave your company and stay in Ferelden with somoene else's forces (possibly Eamon's) to see the Blight through. Loghain, for everything he's done wrong, can at least say that he will do that. Alistair won't. You may disagree, but I cannot justify him putting his hatred above the entire country and leaving everybody to die - even if you can win without him.

And yes, I do hold the Warden to the same standardd. If, for some reason, they felt that they couldn't fight with their party anymore (say they were a HN or CE and Howe was recruited) then I would expect them to stay and fight with someone else's forces or else they would be just as morally culpable for leaving.

Sarah1281 wrote...
So it's favoritism? It's not hypocritical for you to justify killing Loghain to appease Alistair and think that not wanting to kill Loghain in front of Anora is stupid because you barely know her because you like Alistair better? I can't agree with that.

The favoritism of an elven mage who prefers a person who recognizes the hypocrisy of the Chantry and that elves should be treated as people over someone who did nothing to alieviate the povery of the alienage or the sickening antics of someone like Bann Vaughan... I suppose she might not have known what Vaughan was up to, but that simply brings up another problem with Anora's administration of her own city - despite the mass murder of guards at the castle and the presence of dead elves that I'm certain would be brought to someone's attention, she simply didn't care enough about the elves to even know why they'd riot in the first place. Killing a man who allowed elves to be sold into slavery and prefering a man who cares about your people over someone who clearly doesn't is something I can completely support.

Yeah, you know what? It's great that your elf likes Alistair better. I don't really care as it has nothing to do with what I said. What I was saying was that it is incredibly hypocritical to say that "Part of the reason I'm killing Loghain is because Alistair wants me to and you're being stupid /naive/overly sentimental/whatever to not want to kill Loghain in front of Anora. Didn't anybody ever tell you you had to have travelled with somebody on an epic quest for a year before you're allowed to have sympathy for them?" 

You can kill Loghain and still wish it could have been done differently because you hate the way his blood splattered all over Anora. You can spare Loghain and still understand why Alistair wants him dead. This particular point has nothing to do with who would be a good ruler and everything to do with the fact that if you're going to include the feelings of one person in your decision then you can't go around telling other people that they shouldn't be including the feelings of someone else. Maybe you don't feel Anora's feelings should at all be considered, maybe someone else doesn't feel Alistair should get a say. There is no definitive 'Alistair's feelings get to be considered while Anora's don't' as whose feelings are taken into account and whose aren't are a judgement call.

[phaonica]

klarabella wrote...

phaonica wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Ever wondered what happened to the survivors of Haven after you slaughtered the majority of the cultists? I guess, the children who lived there died, content to know that if their parents had not been so wrong and evil your flawless hero would have shown compassion and mercy. Damn the game mechanics.

I do think about this sometimes, the Warden's hapless victims. I'm sure our Wardens could come up with all the reasons in the world why those people and others had to die "for the greater good." I would hope that "I was *trying* to defend Ferelden" would be a reasonable argument against my execution, but clearly this isn't a valid reason to some.

Very interesting.

Would your Warden be ready to die for their actions if things went wrong? Knowing that they did everything they could but failing eventually? Would your Warden reason that they were right to kill because of the Greater Good or would they willingly meet their fate?

If she believed that she had done everything that she could, and still failed, she would defend herself, but she would face her execution with dignity and without regret. In my mind, I'd pretty much decided that my Warden doesn't reach her Calling and is killed by someone who identifies themselves as one of her "victims".

[AngryFrozenWater]

This thread has given me an idea for an ending I haven't tried yet. No dark ritual and let Loghain kill the Archdemon. I wonder if that is doable.

What I like about DAO is that you can try different scenarios (side with elves or not and so on). The same goes for the end scenario. Anything can be rationalized or explained in the game. Most of the time. In one game Loghain survived and was rebuilding the Grey Wardens. That sounds better than a punishment. Too bad Alistair didn't agree, though. According to the epilogue he became a drunk traveling from inn to inn. Did he felt betrayed or didn't he have a backbone? Of course questions like these remain unanswered for your own interpretation.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 août 2010 - 08:01 .

[DragonRacer13]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

This thread has given me an idea for an ending I haven't tried yet. No dark ritual and let Loghain kill the Archdemon. I wonder if that is doable.

That is doable, yes.