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[AngryFrozenWater]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

This thread has given me an idea for an ending I haven't tried yet. No dark ritual and let Loghain kill the Archdemon. I wonder if that is doable.

That is doable, yes.

Cool. Thanks. I might try that with my current character.

[phaonica]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Loghain is not that kind of guy, I think. The most despicable thing he says is: How dare you judge me. ... None of you have spilled blood for this country the way I have. Which is so infuriating because complete and utter nonsense as the Warden, Alistair and others did indeed spill their blood for their country up to this point.

 
Mmm, I didn’t actually get offended by that. Sure, Loghain is not the ONLY person in the entirety of Ferelden to have spilt blood for that country, but considering the huge role he played in supporting Maric, leading Maric’s armies and basically being Maric’s right-hand man, I pretty much agree with the statement. If Maric hadn’t run head-long into Loghain all those years ago back in the woods, how different would Ferelden be today? Would it even be a free nation or would everyone still be forced to lick the Orlesians' bootheels and be expected to just take their abuse? For that, I do feel Loghain deserves respect. Whether or not one chooses to hate the man for his recent actions is up to the individual, but no one can argue against his contribution to Ferelden’s independence. But that is just my opinion, and I can fully admit I am biased towards the redemption route.

I agree, DragonRacer. To some degree, he was "throwing a fit" there, but at the same time he had dispensed with the politics and was being sincere. He's an @ss about it, but I did feel that he was right that few had done more for Ferelden's independence than he had, and few of them really understood what had to be sacrificed to gain that peace. My character identified with that sentiment too much to be mad about it.

[Bahlgan]

phaonica wrote...

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Loghain took the bulk of the army with him. If Loghain had not taken the throne, the bannorn would not have been asked to fight because the Orlesian army would already be there, and Ferelden at it's mercy.

Fair enough. Long story short - Loghain has committed far too much more treachery than for us to whine and **** and moan for Alistair leaving. I find it quite odd how people are willing to accept Loghain's betrayal but not Alistair's desire to leave an order which he has no obligation to fill out. Duncan is dead, the one who helped him get in the order, and the one character who SHOULD care, the Warden, doesn't. He has no reason to stay.

Could have fooled me. He said he quit the Wardens and he would leave Ferelden "gladly".

Perhaps at first, but then he had no choice after finding out about Anora's power hungry ungrateful brat side kicking in. He had no choice after my evil character developed a heart enough not to wish his execution. However, perhaps it would have been kinder for my evil character to execute him. Poor Alistair. 
 

I didn't think his leaving significantly affected the fight against the Blight, no, because no one knew that Wardens were required at that time. However, I did think it was sorry of him to claim the high and honorable status of the Wardens, and then quit. I would have been fine with him accusing me of being a disgrace to the Wardens, but I don't agree with him having these grand expectations of me and then not be willing to live up to it himself.

Granted, I too think Alistair is whiny, and perhaps leaving was a miserable course of action indeed. Still though, are you going to put him up as more dishonorable than Loghain, who greedily watched the darkspawn plunder his own soldiers? Some would.

Consider Alistair's feelings or consider his argument? Because I do not believe that Alistair is the embodiment of the rational arguments against Loghain. His last words before executing Loghain are "Forget Maric. This is for Duncan." Or the way I hear it "Forget Ferelden, this is for Me." And just considering his feelings? No. His need for revenge is not enough to convince me to spare Loghain.

Consider both, but more so his feelings. Anyway, pardon me is Alistair isn't perfect and may slip up every now and then with his choice of words; don't we all? But Maric wasn't screwed over by Loghain's decisions, he wasn't betrayed; he was already dead when his son was left to die. Duncan was directly betrayed, therefore Alistair mentioned Duncan over Maric. I will consider that it is possible that Alistair was a little harsh by saying forget Maric, but I believe even so you are reading it a little judgmental.

A kinder touch does not necessarily lead to a prosperous kingdom. Why do you think so many people harden Alistair before putting him on the throne?

Sheesh everyone seems to be under the assumption that the event with Goldanna is the ONLY chance in Alistair's life to harden up. Alistair will harden up over time as King. He will e in charge of making several decisions over the course of Dragon Age and many of those decisions, I bet you and others, will contribute to hardening him on his own time. There is no need for my Warden to harden Alistair by himself. Besides, hardening him doesn't really do anything except for the throne, and we don't need a pompous king. If anything, Alistair should be battle-hardened, not politically-hardened.

I don't think that Loghain is evil, and I think executing him under the given circumstances is unnecessary, and also rather unjust to judge him on this one year and to not give him a second chance after a lifetime of service to Ferelden.

Roleplaying here, it does not excuse the wrongs he committed, may I remind you, outside of Ostagar. Poisoning Arl Eamon, hiring Jowan to do the job, capturing members of the Bannorn and the Templar commander of Denerim's chantry, taking part in murdering the Cousland line, consorting with Uldred to rid the tower, enslaving the Alienage under Tevinter mages, the list goes on, and I dare not continue, for I could probably run out of room beforehand. If Alistair is truly worth throwing away (he helps the Warden correct all of Loghain's mistakes by the way) then it seems the Warden has no sense of rewarding Alistair for his justice.

stopped them. They could have been a pretty immediate threat, too, if he hadn't pushed them back.

Really? Loghain pushed back the darkspawn? I thought Ostagar was run down. Unless he cloned himself and sent it in to fight beside Cailan and Duncan, I am not buying it.

I'm not overlooking it. I'm giving him another chance. The desire to give someone another chance is not evil.

This is our final impass. Nothing at this point can get you to place yourself in my shoes. If you wish to throw Alistair's loyalty away, that is your story. I will not try anymore to convince you otherwise.

True, but if you're playing as a Warden from the city elf background, then his slavery of your family and friends made the decision for you. Playing as a Cousland and allowing Howe to murder your family, your lover, and take up the mantle of Teyrn of Highever, makes it your right to sever his head from his neck. If you're an elven mage like my cannon, then conspiring with an imbecile like Uldred and permitting family and friends from the home you are taken from (the Denerim Alienage) to be sold into slavery by Tevinter blood mages gives you all the authority you need.

Yes!! It feels so good to hear that I am not the only one who accomodates this form of thought for my human noble! You sir, have won it right there by me! But what about the mage? I would believe the mage has a right too, though to a lesser extent, for Loghain's interference with the Circle, hence that damned Uldred.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 11 août 2010 - 08:31 .

[Sarah1281]

Sheesh everyone seems to be under the assumption that the event with Goldanna is the ONLY chance in Alistair's life to harden up. Alistair will harden up over time as King. He will e in charge of making several decisions over the course of Dragon Age and many of those decisions, I bet you and others, will contribute to hardening him on his own time. There is no need for my Warden to harden Alistair by himself. Besides, hardening him doesn't really do anything except for the throne, and we don't need a pompous king. If anything, Alistair should be battle-hardened, not politically-hardened.

Do you know WHY people are under that impression? Because the epilogue for unhardened Alistair shows that he never does any of the actual ruling and goes out to meet the people all the time, leaving his chancellor (which can be you) with ultimate power. Putting an unhardened Alistair on the throne is, frankly, like putting you or Eamon on the throne.

Yes!! It feels so good to hear that I am not the only one who accomodates this form of thought for my human noble! You sir, have won it right there by me! But what about the mage? I would believe the mage has a right too, though to a lesser extent, for Loghain's interference with the Circle, hence that damned Uldred.

I strongly disagree. We don't know what would have happened had the Circle sided with Loghain and we can't blame Uldred's possession (which brought about all the demons) on Loghain.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 août 2010 - 08:33 .

[Bahlgan]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Oh, misinterpretation. I'm not smiling because I'm trying to eliminate hostility, but because I find you amusing. Your belief that my view on your judgement is harsh also brings a smile to my face. Weren't you advocating your right to brutal honesty a moment ago?

You're not some sort of stalker, are ya? I am flattered, but I have enough creepy fans, thanks

Hmmmm... I am convinced at this point you kill your targets. Please keep away from me, I DO want to live

Yes, I was, but in my mind I truly do not wish to put down my targets, no matter how much anyone else wishes to believe. The way you sounded for a second was as if I ran over your cat, or something along the lines.

My favourite reason not to kill Loghain is because cutting his head off in front of his daughter is brutal and cruel.

Compassion and mercy are positive reasons to me.

Oh, and for you when you wake up (unless you are still lurking, as some people do when they say they've left)...

As mentioned before by another, this is a BRUTAL game. You know this, and I mean no offense, but you best get with the program of the relatively "gothic" and despairing tales. NOW, I congratulate you for your sense of occasional optimism, because I too have it in my game. But your reason for sparing Loghain falls under the redemption category. It does not qualify as its own reason. Please do brainstorm for another reason, however, for I would like to be wrong about this. Perhaps there is another.

If you give me one more smile, you're treating me out to dinner and a movie, aight? I want no more!!

[Sarah1281]

Is 'I know Alistair won't serve with Loghain and, as King, I don't want to risk him dying so this way I can almost guarentee him surviving' a non-redemptive reason? It's definitely something I consider.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote..

Do you know WHY people are under that impression? Because the epilogue for unhardened Alistair shows that he never does any of the actual ruling and goes out to meet the people all the time, leaving his chancellor (which can be you) with ultimate power. Putting an unhardened Alistair on the throne is, frankly, like putting you or Eamon on the throne.

Do you know what happens when you assume? If you look towards the epilogues, it also mentions that he travels around the kingdom to make a shining example for the people who praise him as their king. See? He wasn't such a bad king after all. Honestly, you are now looking for codex to back your statement? I thought you were one to interpret like some of the others. It seems though you didn't read my last saying that Alistair shall get hardened in time, but then again I am used to not having my posts being completely read after all this time. Do you really blaspheme Eamon so much? I don't want to talk to you about Eamon anymore please.

I strongly disagree. We don't know what would have happened had the Circle sided with Loghain and we can't blame Uldred's possession (which brought about all the demons) on Loghain.

We sure can. Loghain allowed blood magic to be used. Despite that he may not have WISHED demons to come out, he should have taken full account and responsibility for authorizing the means of which had been abhored and feared for centuries. Uldred had what was coming to him anyway, you play with fire like a little kid, and you get burned... Or possessed by demons.. Hmm maybe I should stop playing with matches.

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote..

Do you know WHY people are under that impression? Because the epilogue for unhardened Alistair shows that he never does any of the actual ruling and goes out to meet the people all the time, leaving his chancellor (which can be you) with ultimate power. Putting an unhardened Alistair on the throne is, frankly, like putting you or Eamon on the throne.

Do you know what happens when you assume? If you look towards the epilogues, it also mentions that he travels around the kingdom to make a shining example for the people who praise him as their king. See? He wasn't such a bad king after all. Honestly, you are now looking for codex to back your statement? I thought you were one to interpret like some of the others. It seems though you didn't read my last saying that Alistair shall get hardened in time, but then again I am used to not having my posts being completely read after all this time. Do you really blaspheme Eamon so much? I don't want to talk to you about Eamon anymore please.

...How was that saying anything bad about Eamon? If you are the chancellor to an unhardened Alistair then the epilogue tells you that when you're not at court things literally grind to a halt as you're that important and Alistair doesn't rule. It stands to reason, then, that if you're not the chanellor but Eamon is then the same thing happens. This doesn't say anything about Eamon being a horrible person or power-hungry, just that since Alistair won't step up then someone has to and that someone is his chancellor.

I did read your 'in time.' Cailan had five years of time and he appeared to know nothing about his country and was quite thoroughly unhardened. If Alistair is just going out to meet the people, how will that harden him? They like his personality and the fact he's willing to meet with the common folk. They don't see anything of his ruling style (or lack thereof) and the epilogue does not give any indication that he will, at some point, harden on his own. That he might is a RP possibility but you can't say with certainty that he will as we're never given any indication of that and plenty of kings who, though popular, haven't been the best ruler IRL never actually shape up into a good ruler. It's not inevitable.

Edit: And as it happens, I like Eamon. I just don't see him as a selfless pure-hearted person like you seem to. If I can like Loghain for all his flaws, what makes you think I'm not capable of liking Eamon despite all of his? 

I strongly disagree. We don't know what would have happened had the Circle sided with Loghain and we can't blame Uldred's possession (which brought about all the demons) on Loghain.

We sure can. Loghain allowed blood magic to be used. Despite that he may not have WISHED demons to come out, he should have taken full account and responsibility for authorizing the means of which had been abhored and feared for centuries. Uldred had what was coming to him anyway, you play with fire like a little kid, and you get burned... Or possessed by demons.. Hmm maybe I should stop playing with matches.

I highly doubt Loghain knew that Uldred was a blood mage. I mean, why would Uldred risk telling him? Although yes, in all likelihood he did know that Jowan was one.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 août 2010 - 08:56 .

[DragonRacer13]

Bahlgan wrote...
We sure can. Loghain allowed blood magic to be used. Despite that he may not have WISHED demons to come out, he should have taken full account and responsibility for authorizing the means of which had been abhored and feared for centuries. Uldred had what was coming to him anyway, you play with fire like a little kid, and you get burned... Or possessed by demons.. Hmm maybe I should stop playing with matches.

Question, and I ask because I honestly feel I may have missed something: when and how do we find out that Loghain specifically approved use of blood magic for Uldred's plan of "liberating" the Circle Tower from the Chantry? I was under the impression that Loghain wanted the mages allied with him and that there was an expectation from Uldred that Loghain would help the tower get out from under the Chantry's total control, but I don't remember coming across dialogues that said he had any idea as to the details of Uldred's plans (i.e. the blood mages running a coup and leading to demons being unleashed/abominations created). Did I miss a conversation tree?

I always thought that Loghain basically made overtures to Uldred to gain a mage alliance, but then Uldred went off like a loose cannon and the situation completely spun out of control after that (which, if that were the case, would be Uldred's fault entirely and not Loghain's, in my opinion)

[Bahlgan]

phaonica wrote...

I never claimed my revenge against Howe was more important. I never claimed that I "deserved" my revenge against Howe either. I was also forced to kill Howe, whether I could come up with a reason to spare him or not. Who is to say that one can't play a character who could have been talked down by a "revenge isn't the answer" speech from their party members, if that had been an option? Not everyone plays their Cousland utterly driven by revenge.

Well, given that you know now, what would you say to my statement?

I don't think it's that simple. Howe may have wanted to kill me for selfish reasons, but Loghain thought I was a threat to the nation, and I can see how he might have come to that conclusion, given his history with the Wardens. I think that Loghain's reason to want me dead is a more acceptable reason than the various assassins who could care less and are "just doing their job".

I'd like to see half the people in real life not lose themselves to seeing their families butchered and placed on trophy walls. I played my Warden as one under too much pressure. Loghain could have just as easily tried to kill my Warden's family because of simple power as well as the "threat" claim you make. Under his right mind, however, I imagine that he wouldn't wish to remove me from power as an obstacle.

So Loghain was an obstacle in your rise to power?

Oh ho ho ho!! I see what you're trying to do, maybe. Making me sound a villain.

Yes power, power which Loghain wouldn't have known how to use. The manner of which Loghain addressed his power through authoritarian means was completely uncalled for and was the reason of which the Bannorn resisted his rule. My Warden, on the other hand, had seen more of the darkspawn (whilst he saw none save Ostagar) to the point of which Alistair and I were the experts by the time we had cleaned up the Deep Roads.

Because of the service to the country during the Orlesian Occupation that earned him his Hero title. Because of every good quality that Maric saw in him. Because he ruled the kingdom just fine when Maric disappeared into the Deep Roads. Because he is still a capable soldier, and he does still have influence with the Landsmeet. Because, despite any mistakes he might have made, his loyalty was always to Ferelden first. Because Riordan hints that there might be a compelling Warden-based reason to put him through the Joining instead. Because sometimes it is "good" to spare a man who surrenders. Because when you do spare him, he's a decent person who *is* willing to put aside his differences and work with the Warden.

Yes, about Maric, what makes you think Maric would have approved of what Loghain did anyway? I am certain he would be inclined for Loghain to pay for the death of his own son, given not direct, but still.

Again, that falls under the pragmatism category: using his powers as an adventageous position. That does not fall under redemption, though, I will certainly give you that.

Are you sure he's willing though? He seems the same grouch about it, and shows no respect afterwards to the Grey Wardens even though he would then be a part of them. Sounds like he wishses I DID execute him.

And before you say, "all that still just boils down to Redemption", I could argue that the other side "just boils down to Justice". And in the same way that Redemption alone isn't a good enough argument for you to spare him, Justice isn't a good enough argument for me to execute him.

You are right, redemption and justice are not the same. They are different aspects of the kind will. It must have taken you quite a bit of thinking to answer it in such a fashion. And no, that wasn't sarcasm. But who are you to say that justice demands he be spared and Alistair be given the short end of the stick? That's not justice. Justice is doing the right thing. Alistair has been following the element of justice FAR more than Loghain, so you are basically supporting the idea of dissing the one who is more loyal to justice. That doesn't make sense to me.

But as you've said. It's not that you don't see these arguments, they just don't convince you. Which imo is fine, ultimately, because it's not as if I don't see the arguments against him, I just don't find that they're enough to convince me to execute him.

In all honesty, it's not that I don't like you any less. I was convinced a while back that he perhaps deserves redemption indeed. I just don't think he has to LIVE to feel it.

EDIT: The Maker could also be the one to give him his redemption

Edit: And as it happens, I like Eamon. I just don't see him as a selfless pure-hearted person like you seem to. If I can like Loghain for all his flaws, what makes you think I'm not capable of liking Eamon despite all of his?

Didn't I make it clear to you and others that I was using figurative speech again, as you hate so much, and merely supported him being kind hearted and along the just alignment?

Modifié par Bahlgan, 11 août 2010 - 09:08 .

[Sarah1281]

People keep saying the Loghain decision is 'redemption vs. justice' and I disagree. It seems far more 'redemption vs. revenge.' For Alistair (and perhaps everyone else in DA) those two seem to be the same but they aren't for me. Alistair or you killing Loghain is most certainly revenge. Is it justice? That I'm not so sure of.

Didn't I make it clear to you and others that I was using figurative speech again, as you hate so much, and merely supported him being kind hearted and along the just alignment?

You're the one who accused me of hating Eamon because I don't see him as a saint. And in the 'Eamon will rule for Alistair when Alistair can't be bothered' scenario, that's really saying nothing against Eamon. It would be far more irresponsible for him to NOT step us and leave the throne empty.

[Bahlgan]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...
We sure can. Loghain allowed blood magic to be used. Despite that he may not have WISHED demons to come out, he should have taken full account and responsibility for authorizing the means of which had been abhored and feared for centuries. Uldred had what was coming to him anyway, you play with fire like a little kid, and you get burned... Or possessed by demons.. Hmm maybe I should stop playing with matches.

Question, and I ask because I honestly feel I may have missed something: when and how do we find out that Loghain specifically approved use of blood magic for Uldred's plan of "liberating" the Circle Tower from the Chantry? I was under the impression that Loghain wanted the mages allied with him and that there was an expectation from Uldred that Loghain would help the tower get out from under the Chantry's total control, but I don't remember coming across dialogues that said he had any idea as to the details of Uldred's plans (i.e. the blood mages running a coup and leading to demons being unleashed/abominations created). Did I miss a conversation tree?

I always thought that Loghain basically made overtures to Uldred to gain a mage alliance, but then Uldred went off like a loose cannon and the situation completely spun out of control after that (which, if that were the case, would be Uldred's fault entirely and not Loghain's, in my opinion)

Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe I am wrong, and the blood magic ritualistic practices so eloquently explained by Niall, who you meet in the Fade, were really kept secret from Loghain. Again though, as Sarah mentioned, he was fully aware of Jowan's status; do you believe that Loghain would instantly disapprove of Uldred's status had he known sooner? Loghain is realist, he COULD use the powers of blood as a military force, despite the plethora of people fearing the very reason of blood magic? I as a Warden support their fear, for look what it did to the Golden Throne. How about the slaves in Tevinter? The abominations? Scary things with claws and an insatiable hunger perhaps for flesh and blood firstly of the sentient.

You may be right that Loghain did not know, just maybe. I still believe he would have supported Uldred.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

People keep saying the Loghain decision is 'redemption vs. justice' and I disagree. It seems far more 'redemption vs. revenge.' For Alistair (and perhaps everyone else in DA) those two seem to be the same but they aren't for me. Alistair or you killing Loghain is most certainly revenge. Is it justice? That I'm not so sure of.

I would agree with your claim, but I feel like I am not the only one gaining from his removal of power, put it kindly. So many others, mainly the bannorn, Arl Eamon, those who were put in Arl Howe's dungeon room, are probably breathing a little easier now as well because they won't fear a government attack anymore. 

It is not revenge. It IS justice! Arl Howe was firstly revenge.

You're the one who accused me of hating Eamon because I don't see him as a saint. And in the 'Eamon will rule for Alistair when Alistair can't be bothered' scenario, that's really saying nothing against Eamon. It would be far more irresponsible for him to NOT step us and leave the throne empty.

(That's your opinion. Let's leave it at that, as my Warden personally wished for Therein blood to continue)

Please please please stop saying that I think he is a saint. I do not hold that claim anymore presently; just that he is too good a man to be put in the bed by a tyrant.

And no, not because you don't believe he is a saint. But because of this V

Putting an unhardened Alistair on the throne is, frankly, like putting you or Eamon on the throne.

It just seemed so harsh the way you compare Eamon and Alistair (or me, or my Warden...). I know that Alistair is not as experienced in matters of the throne like Loghain. But I am giving Alistair (and I suppose Eamon) a chance. It's not like there should be another Blight and/or a responsibility too great for them. Oh yes, also, I DO have Anora as well. Those three shall be more than enough to cover Loghain's death.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 11 août 2010 - 09:20 .

[DragonRacer13]

Bahlgan wrote...
Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe I am wrong, and the blood magic ritualistic practices so eloquently explained by Niall, who you meet in the Fade, were really kept secret from Loghain. Again though, as Sarah mentioned, he was fully aware of Jowan's status; do you believe that Loghain would instantly disapprove of Uldred's status had he known sooner? Loghain is realist, he COULD use the powers of blood as a military force, despite the plethora of people fearing the very reason of blood magic? I as a Warden support their fear, for look what it did to the Golden Throne. How about the slaves in Tevinter? The abominations? Scary things with claws and an insatiable hunger perhaps for flesh and blood firstly of the sentient.

You may be right that Loghain did not know, just maybe. I still believe he would have supported Uldred.

I wasn't saying I thought Loghain was ignorant about blood magic period. Just that I didn't think he was off in some corner conspiring with Uldred and telling him, "Yup, having blood mages slaughter half the mages in the Circle Tower is an excellent plan!"

And I agree that my Warden feels freaked out about blood magic, too. Buuuuuut... that's hypocritical of my character as a Grey Warden because Riordan flat-out says the Wardens take everything from kinslayers to traitors to carta thugs to blood mages. So, I can't really condemn Loghain for conspiring with blood mages (if he was even aware of it) considering my own order recruits them.  

Modifié par DragonRacer13, 11 août 2010 - 09:25 .

[DragonRacer13]

I also blame Loghain for my double-post... damn you, Loghain, damn yooooouuuu!!!!!

Modifié par DragonRacer13, 11 août 2010 - 09:25 .

[Sarah1281]

It would be far more irresponsible for him to NOT step us and leave the throne empty.

(That's your opinion. Let's leave it at that, as my Warden personally wished for Therein blood to continue)

What are you talking about? We know that an unhardened Alistair (at least in the beginning no matter what might happen later) never spends any time at court. We know from the Warden chancellor ending that in such a case, the chancellor holds court and runs things. All I said was that, when Eamon is chancellor, I am not judging him for running things as I feel that, when Alistair isn't actually ruling, is would be irresponsible for Eamon not to step up and to have no one ruling the nation. The only thing that's my opinion here is that Eamon ruling things when Alistair leaves court to be a responsible course of action. You could, I suppose, feel that it is irresponsible for him to take over when Alistair isn't there although I honestly don't understand that POV.

It just seemed so harsh the way you compare Eamon and Alistair (or me, or my Warden...). I know that Alistair is not as experienced in matters of the throne like Loghain. But I am giving Alistair (and I suppose Eamon) a chance. It's not like there should be another Blight and/or a responsibility too great for them. Oh yes, also, I DO have Anora as well. Those three shall be more than enough to cover Loghain's death.

It's not supposed to come off as harsh. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER HE BECOMES A GOOD RULER IN THE DISTANT FUTURE NOT TOUCHED UPON BY THE EPILOGUE SLIDES, the epilogue makes it clear that for an unhardened Alistair his chancellor does the ruling at least at first. Who is the chancellor? You if you pick the 'I want to serve the crown' boon and Eamon if you don't. Since you or Eamon are the ones ruling, it's really the same as if you were actually the one on the throne.

Edit:

Granted, I too think Alistair is whiny, and perhaps leaving was a miserable course of action indeed. Still though, are you going to put him up as more dishonorable than Loghain, who greedily watched the darkspawn plunder his own soldiers? Some would.

Wait...greedily? Where does greed come in? At all? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 août 2010 - 09:32 .

[phaonica]

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

Long story short - Loghain has committed far too much more treachery than for us to whine and **** and moan for Alistair leaving. [/quote]

I don't even know why you are comparing the two. Just because "Loghain's crime were worse", I'm not allowed to complain about someone else's actions? I agree that if I have the capacity to spare Loghain, that I had better think long and hard about who I *do* execute, and who I *don't* think deserves a second chance.  

[quote] I find it quite odd how people are willing to accept Loghain's betrayal but not Alistair's desire to leave an order which he has no obligation to fill out. Duncan is dead, the one who helped him get in the order, and the one character who SHOULD care, the Warden, doesn't. He has no reason to stay. [/quote]
Wow, and here this whole time I thought the Wardens were supposed to Stop the Blight. I didn't know it was just a social/familial fraternity. 

[quote] However, perhaps it would have been kinder for my evil character to execute him. Poor Alistair. 
[/quote]

None of my characters have had a reason to execute Alistair, yet. I had hoped that since he left the Wardens and was no longer pressured by the crown, that maybe he'd decide for himself to rejoin the Wardens or to do something else, something that he was allowed to choose, for the first time in his life.

[quote]


[quote]I didn't think his leaving significantly affected the fight against the Blight, no, because no one knew that Wardens were required at that time. However, I did think it was sorry of him to claim the high and honorable status of the Wardens, and then quit. I would have been fine with him accusing me of being a disgrace to the Wardens, but I don't agree with him having these grand expectations of me and then not be willing to live up to it himself.[/quote]Granted, I too think Alistair is whiny, and perhaps leaving was a miserable course of action indeed. Still though, are you going to put him up as more dishonorable than Loghain, who greedily watched the darkspawn plunder his own soldiers? Some would.

[/quote]

I think that if Loghain had packed his bags and went to another country and abandoned Ferelden during the Blight that that would have been more dishonorable (or a greater betrayal to Ferelden) than anything he did trying to save it. Yes. That is not to say that refugees are necessarily dishonorable, but if you have proclaimed your "duty" to protect Ferelden and then abandon it, I would say that that was dishonorable.

[quote][quote]Consider Alistair's feelings or consider his argument? Because I do not believe that Alistair is the embodiment of the rational arguments against Loghain. His last words before executing Loghain are "Forget Maric. This is for Duncan." Or the way I hear it "Forget Ferelden, this is for Me." And just considering his feelings? No. His need for revenge is not enough to convince me to spare Loghain. Edit: whoops, I meant not enough to convince me to execute Loghain.[/quote]

Consider both, but more so his feelings. Anyway, pardon me is Alistair isn't perfect and may slip up every now and then with his choice of words; don't we all?[/quote] If you are trying to claim that maybe he didn't *mean* it like he said it, I don't buy that. There are other times in the game where you can suggest that maybe we don't know the whole story with Loghain, or that maybe the civil war would end quicker if the opposing side would just surrender long enought to stop the Blight, and Alistair will have none of it. He will absolutely consider no plan that doesn't involve Loghain's death, from the very beginning.

[quote] But Maric wasn't screwed over by Loghain's decisions, he wasn't betrayed; he was already dead when his son was left to die. Duncan was directly betrayed, therefore Alistair mentioned Duncan over Maric. I will consider that it is possible that Alistair was a little harsh by saying forget Maric, but I believe even so you are reading it a little judgmental. [/quote] Yeah, I don't think so. He appeals to everyone, "Remember how he wronged you, and you and you, too!" And then he says "Forget all that, he wronged me". Call it being judgmental if you want, but decided whether or not to execute someone kind of is a judgment call.

[quote] There is no need for my Warden to harden Alistair by himself. [/quote]
But you agree that Alistair does need to be hardened, then? Because a kinder touch isn't enough to be a good ruler? There is more to it than that.

[quote] Besides, hardening him doesn't really do anything except for the throne, and we don't need a pompous king. If anything, Alistair should be battle-hardened, not politically-hardened. [/quote]
Because Loghain's battle prowess made him so much more qualified to lead the nation than all of his political prowess?

[quote] Roleplaying here, it does not excuse the wrongs he committed, [/quote] No, it doesn't excuse it. Does giving someone a second chance automatically excuse their actions? You can hold someone accountable and still give them a second chance.

[quote] If Alistair is truly worth throwing away (he helps the Warden correct all of Loghain's mistakes by the way) then it seems the Warden has no sense of rewarding Alistair for his justice. [/quote]
Yeah, I can't agree that if I've decided not to execute someone that I should let Alistair do it anyway as a reward for his loyalty.

[quote]


[quote]stopped them. They could have been a pretty immediate threat, too, if he hadn't pushed them back.[/quote]Really? Loghain pushed back the darkspawn? I thought Ostagar was run down. Unless he cloned himself and sent it in to fight beside Cailan and Duncan, I am not buying it. [/quote]
No, you said the Orlesians weren't a threat. I said they weren't a threat potentially because Loghain pushed them back.

[quote] If you wish to throw Alistair's loyalty away, that is your story. I will not try anymore to convince you otherwise. [/quote] Alistair's loyalty apparently only extended to the Warden and not to the people of Ferelden. So yes, I'll pass on that.

[Bahlgan]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

I wasn't saying I thought Loghain was ignorant about blood magic period. Just that I didn't think he was off in some corner conspiring with Uldred and telling him, "Yup, having blood mages slaughter half the mages in the Circle Tower is an excellent plan!"

Hah that's actually pretty funny the way you said it.

I am sure Loghain didn't MEAN directly to kill the mages. He still must take into account though for poor judgment of choosing Uldred. But then again, with some people you can never tell. Wynne would have done a marvelous job at explaining to Loghain what a "squirrely bastard" he is though lol

And I agree that my Warden feels freaked out about blood magic, too. Buuuuuut... that's hypocritical of my character as a Grey Warden because Riordan flat-out says the Wardens take everything from kinslayers to traitors to carta thugs to blood mages. So, I can't really condemn Loghain for conspiring with blood mages (if he was even aware of it) considering my own order recruits them.  

Your own order indeed recruits them, yes. But, does that mean YOU have to?

I also blame Loghain for my double-post... damn you, Loghain, damn yooooouuuu!!!!!

...He has no bounds of cruelty and injustice!! He shall be exe-- For the double post? Alright then..

[Bahlgan]

All I said was that, when Eamon is chancellor, I am not judging him for running things as I feel that, when Alistair isn't actually ruling, is would be irresponsible for Eamon not to step up and to have no one ruling the nation. The only thing that's my opinion here is that Eamon ruling things when Alistair leaves court to be a responsible course of action. You could, I suppose, feel that it is irresponsible for him to take over when Alistair isn't there although I honestly don't understand that POV.

It's true, it would be irresponsible for Eamon to completely take rule in Alistair's absence, although I do believe that him being given stead while Alistair is away from the kingdom and/or performing duties in other countries would be responsible.

It's not supposed to come off as harsh. REGARDLESS OF WHETHER HE BECOMES A GOOD RULER IN THE DISTANT FUTURE NOT TOUCHED UPON BY THE EPILOGUE SLIDES, the epilogue makes it clear that for an unhardened Alistair his chancellor does the ruling at least at first. Who is the chancellor? You if you pick the 'I want to serve the crown' boon and Eamon if you don't. Since you or Eamon are the ones ruling, it's really the same as if you were actually the one on the throne.

I think I see what you mean. My Warden isn't the chancellor however, he searches for Morrigan, while on-and-off attending to matters of recruiting Wardens and/or helping Alistair out from time to time. But no, my priority was to find Morrigan first. Eamon will have to help Alistair as his advisor. Even Maric had an advisor too; he had Loghain.

Wait...greedily? Where does greed come in? At all?

I don't know? Maybe the throne? Do I really need to explain again?

[Sarah1281]

I don't know? Maybe the throne? Do I really need to explain again?

I don't think he was power-hungry, he was just overly paranoid and convinced he was the only one who could save Ferelden. That's not a lust for power.

[Giggles_Manically]

The last thing Loghain wanted was the crown.

In his banter with Shale in praticular you see that he would not have killed Anora. He just tried to bludgeon his way through, were he needed a more delicate hand.



Also before sparing him I detested him, but after hearing his banter, talking to him, and reading the two books I understand him better.

Also I have no respect for Alistair leaving your entire nation to burn because you dont get your petty revenge is a dick move.

[Dean_the_Young]

Qualifies more as a messiah complex: power was the means to an end, not the end itself.

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't know? Maybe the throne? Do I really need to explain again?

I don't think he was power-hungry, he was just overly paranoid and convinced he was the only one who could save Ferelden. That's not a lust for power.

You could say exactly the same of Hitler and Stalin.  The reality is that he was so arrogant and convinced of his rightness that he doesn't even consider the possibility that the story about the Wardens being needed to defeat the Blight might be true.  He gambles the lives of an entire country on his belief that he can do it which is based on--what, exactly?  In a world full of magic, is it really so safe to assume that the legend about the Grey Wardens might not have some factual basis?  Arrogance to the point where you are very nearly responsible for destroying an entire country (which will happen if Loghain wins the duel) is evil in my book.

And, frankly the question of whether he was power-hungry or not is pure conjecture.  We can't actually know his motives.  If he is purely power-hungry, his actions make a lot more sense to me.  If he's not power-hungry, I would personally consider him paranoid to the point of insanity.  Or possibly posessed by a pride demon.

Modifié par maxernst, 11 août 2010 - 10:13 .

[FiliusMartis]

The last thing Loghain wanted was the crown.



In his banter with Shale in praticular you see that he would not have killed Anora. He just tried to bludgeon his way through, were he needed a more delicate hand.

I'm a bit confused on how his banter with Shale, in which he claims that he would not have killed Anora, proves that he was never after the crown, unless that wasn't the implication, in which case my mistake. Shale says that killing Anora would have caused Loghain to be king "long before any challenge could have been made," which could also suggest that keeping Anora alive was delaying his assent.

[ArawnNox]

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't know? Maybe the throne? Do I really need to explain again?

I don't think he was power-hungry, he was just overly paranoid and convinced he was the only one who could save Ferelden. That's not a lust for power.

You could say exactly the same of Hitler and Stalin.  The reality is that he was so arrogant and convinced of his rightness that he doesn't even consider the possibility that the story about the Wardens being needed to defeat the Blight might be true.  He gambles the lives of an entire country on his belief that he can do it which is based on--what, exactly?  In a world full of magic, is it really so safe to assume that the legend about the Grey Wardens might not have some factual basis?  Arrogance to the point where you are very nearly responsible for destroying an entire country (which will happen if Loghain wins the duel) is evil in my book.

And, frankly the question of whether he was power-hungry or not is pure conjecture.  We can't actually know his motives.  If he is purely power-hungry, his actions make a lot more sense to me.  If he's not power-hungry, I would personally consider him paranoid to the point of insanity.  Or possibly posessed by a pride demon.

As I reanalyze the events of Ostagar, I've come to believe he let his paranoia overtake him. I'll avoid going into details as I don't think it'll add anything to the discussion. Just stating my opinion.