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[sH0tgUn jUliA]

What about Anora marrying the Grey Warden Teryn Cousland who supports Anora? You mention this to Arl Eamon but he kind of makes light of it, still presenting Alister for King. Then in the private conversation Anora agrees to marry the Grey Warden Cousland in exchange for support. This will be interesting at the Landsmeet. I'm assuming Alister is going to have a cow.

[Sarah1281]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

What about Anora marrying the Grey Warden Teryn Cousland who supports Anora? You mention this to Arl Eamon but he kind of makes light of it, still presenting Alister for King. Then in the private conversation Anora agrees to marry the Grey Warden Cousland in exchange for support. This will be interesting at the Landsmeet. I'm assuming Alister is going to have a cow.

Eamon points out how bad it will look for Anora to move on so quickly and says he thinks she'd only do it if it would help her take the throne. As long as Loghain doesn't live, Alistair will be fine with it. Although you can't kill Loghain yourself if you want to marry Anora and if a hardened Alistair does it, he may take the throne. I'm not sure if telling him you're supporting Anora is enough to convince him otherwise so be careful.

[Chris 4597]

I agree. Ridiculous.



He walked out at Ostagar, then blamed the Wardens



He poisoned Arl Emmen.



Sent assassins to kill the main character.



I definately think they could have worked better options in there.

[Bahlgan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The last thing Loghain wanted was the crown.
In his banter with Shale in praticular you see that he would not have killed Anora. He just tried to bludgeon his way through, were he needed a more delicate hand.

Also before sparing him I detested him, but after hearing his banter, talking to him, and reading the two books I understand him better.
Also I have no respect for Alistair leaving your entire nation to burn because you dont get your petty revenge is a dick move.

He may have said it, but I doubt he meant it. Cailan was like a son to him, much like Alistair (or someone) stated in their banter. I would not think it ridiculous that Loghain would consider Anora's murder. I DO personally think it would be ridiculous for him to do it, as anyone would, which puts me higher on the morality chain than him.

Think of it like this: If his plans DID fail, do you think he would follow through with his bluff? He just might. He followed through with his plan all for a little pride about his reality.

I don't think he was power-hungry, he was just overly paranoid and convinced he was the only one who could save Ferelden. That's not a lust for power.

It is when Loghain refuses to share his prowess and assitance with anyone else. Think of all the people who could have helped him, yet had been executed. Members of the Bannorn would have been happy to help him had he been rational, but his lust for power (and a little paranoia) blinded him from accepting help from others. He was being COMPELTELY authoritarian and showing no diplomacy towards those who could have contributed much to the fight.

Then in the private conversation Anora agrees to marry the Grey Warden Cousland in exchange for support. This will be interesting at the Landsmeet. I'm assuming Alister is going to have a cow.

Haha I agree. Fortunately, I do not intend to betray my number one comrade in arms.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 12 août 2010 - 12:05 .

[Sarah1281]

I think Erlina was the 'the King was like a son to him' person. She might have known (unlike various party members who, frankly, wouldn't have a clue) but she's also trying to convince you Anora's life is in danger so you would go to Howe's estate and get her.

Haha I agree. Fortunately, I do not intend to betray my number one comrade in arms.

You say you don't harden him. An unhardened Alistair is only too grateful to let Anora have the throne as long as Loghain dies. It's hardly a betrayal, even from his perspective.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 12 août 2010 - 12:06 .

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think Erlina was the 'the King was like a son to him' person. She might have known (unlike various party members who, frankly, wouldn't have a clue) but she's also trying to convince you Anora's life is in danger so you would go to Howe's estate and get her.

Haha I agree. Fortunately, I do not intend to betray my number one comrade in arms.

You say you don't harden him. An unhardened Alistair is only too grateful to let Anora have the throne as long as Loghain dies. It's hardly a betrayal, even from his perspective.

Erlina?  Anora's maid?  DId you consider her trustworthy?  I can NEVER stop being suspicious of her when she shows up, no matter how many times I play.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bahlgan wrote...

You're not some sort of stalker, are ya? I am flattered, but I have enough creepy fans, thanks

And enough of a self-inflated opinion of himself, yes.

Yes, I was, but in my mind I truly do not wish to put down my targets, no matter how much anyone else wishes to believe.

You seem to be doing a good job of belittling people in this thread, despite your apparent wishes not to, which may account for why I find your claim hard to believe.

*snip pointless diatribe* But your reason for sparing Loghain falls under the redemption category. It does not qualify as its own reason.

Well, that's ok. Considering your problems with the English language and your definition of 'pure of heart' (which Eamon somehow is), I can perfectly understand why you would equate compassion for Anora as redemption for Loghain.

Maybe you should look up the literal definition of 'redemption'. I don't think it means what you think it means. Maybe you're being poetic again.

Please do brainstorm for another reason, however, for I would like to be wrong about this. Perhaps there is another.

Unfortunately I lack the motivation to even give you the ones I have. I get the feeling you'll label them all poetic redemption.

If you give me one more smile, you're treating me out to dinner and a movie, aight? I want no more!!

I'm going to Scott Pilgim vs The World tonight, but you can't come. Literally.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 12 août 2010 - 12:26 .

[Bahlgan]

[quote]Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

[quote]Well, that's ok. Considering your problems with the English language and your definition of 'pure of heart' (which Eamon somehow is), I can perfectly understand why you would equate compassion for Anora as redemption for Loghain.[/quote]

Yea, way to not listen to me telling Sarah that I changed my statement on "pure of heart". My problems with the English language? That some king of troll statement at this point? Honestly, you tell me that I like to belittle people and then you go ahead and mock my previous statement? I am sorry, but I am getting nothing but bad vibes from you at this point. If you truly do not understand the phrases and play-on-words that I speak of, then perhaps maybe it is best to merely ask next time before you make fun of someone for it; I am not the only one who doesn't take EVERY single thing literally unlike a named couple who seem only to criticize me slanderously about my forms of speech.

By the way, my attempts are not to belittle people, no matter what you may think. If you cannot handle a little assertion, then the forums are not for you I am afraid.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 12 août 2010 - 04:40 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Bahlgan wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well, that's ok. Considering your problems with the English language and your definition of 'pure of heart' (which Eamon somehow is), I can perfectly understand why you would equate compassion for Anora as redemption for Loghain.

Yea, way to not listen to me telling Sarah that I changed my statement on "pure of heart".

Possibly because I didn't see it (contrary to your beliefs, I haven't hung on the edge of every one of your posts), but good.

Changing your stance after however many pages it was, and then our recent discussion, doesn't change the point that, yes, I think your understanding of English (or parts of it) falls short. Arguing that you're speaking poetically or making plays on words won't change that opinion.

If you consider that observation to be trolling or inflammatory, well, too bad I guess.

This has gone off track, so I will leave you to get it back on the rails.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 12 août 2010 - 12:03 .

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...

People keep saying the Loghain decision is 'redemption vs. justice' and I disagree. It seems far more 'redemption vs. revenge.' For Alistair (and perhaps everyone else in DA) those two seem to be the same but they aren't for me. Alistair or you killing Loghain is most certainly revenge. Is it justice? That I'm not so sure of.
 

I am.  Planning a coup, selling individuals into slavery, poisoning rivals, attempted murder - and actual murder if you don't believe that his motives for leaving Ostagar were pure as the driven snow - all provide plenty justification enough to kill someone.  

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...

I do think about this sometimes, the Warden's hapless victims. I'm sure our Wardens could come up with all the reasons in the world why those people and others had to die "for the greater good." I would hope that "I was *trying* to defend Ferelden" would be a reasonable argument against my execution, but clearly this isn't a valid reason to some.

I think the key difference is that the Warden is trying to defend Ferelden - and the rest of Thedas - against an actual, tangible threat, while Loghain is busy being paranoid about a threat that never materializes, ignoring the very real threat of the Blight.  

[Dean_the_Young]

Orlais is an actual, tangible threat. Simply because it doesn't materialize doesn't mean it isn't real: that's the nature of most threats and dangers in the world, actually.

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I do think about this sometimes, the Warden's hapless victims. I'm sure our Wardens could come up with all the reasons in the world why those people and others had to die "for the greater good." I would hope that "I was *trying* to defend Ferelden" would be a reasonable argument against my execution, but clearly this isn't a valid reason to some.

I think the key difference is that the Warden is trying to defend Ferelden - and the rest of Thedas - against an actual, tangible threat, while Loghain is busy being paranoid about a threat that never materializes, ignoring the very real threat of the Blight.  

He does not ignore the threat of the Blight. He still has every intention of fighting the Blight. It is *possible* that the threat that Orlais poses never materializes either because it was not as severe as Loghain thought, or because he actually stopped it. Either way, considering that Orlais has tried to take advantage of opportunities to retake Ferelden before, I don't think Loghain was wrong to consider them a threat.

[maxernst]

Yes, and the Soviet Union was a real actual threat in the summer of 1940. Would you have been enthused about Winston Churchill if he had refused to have his planes take the skies while the Germans were bombing London into ruins because he might need those planes to fight the Soviets?



And not once in the game prior to losing the duel, does he speak of the blight as a serious threat, it's always secondary to Orlais and consolidating power. What do you suppose happens to Ferelden if the PC loses the duel? Enough said.



And don't give me this, "he doesn't know the Wardens are needed to stop the blight". He does know. Everybody knows. That's why he keeps saying oh, it's not a true blight...because he knows if he's wrong that he's condemned Ferelden to annihilation. He just doesn't care. Annihilation is better than being ruled by Orlais in his mind.

[Dean_the_Young]

How on earth were the Soviets an actual threat to Britain in 1940? Besides the painful invocation of Godwin's Law, that's a particularly flawed one ignoring such minor details as geography, politics, and feelings of the time. A far better one would have been the Soviet Union's own historic behavior, in which they kept a large number of motorized divisions on the Siberian border to ward of Japan even as the Germans were ravaging unequiped peasant infantry in the far more important Western Russia. That actually fits the analogy you're looking for.

Edit: And to extend the analogy, both fears of the other side taking advantage of distraction are well supported by history: Japan attacked and seized a number of European colonies when the colony nations were distracted by the European War, and had launched a surprise attack against Russia in living memory during the Russo-Japanese War. Likewise, the Orlesian Empire has annexed other countries when 'aiding' them against the Blights (the Anderfels had the fortune of successfully breaking free), and they too only recently tried to take Ferelden. So on both sides of the analogy we have a valid fear, based on history, of historically expansionist nations taking advantage of difficulties to surprise the defender nation.


No, nobody knows why, and therefore at all, that the Wardens are necessary. Most of the Warden mythos is just that: mythos, not facts or proof. Not least because the Wardens keep it that way. All most anyone knows about the Wardens is that they are especially effective against the blight, and the more enlightened ones have a vague idea that it has something to do with the taint.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 12 août 2010 - 03:53 .

[phaonica]

maxernst wrote...
And not once in the game prior to losing the duel, does he speak of the blight as a serious threat, it's always secondary to Orlais and consolidating power.

He barely even mentions Orlais most of the game. He mentions it so rarely that the first time I played the game, and he accused me of having ties to Orlais at the Landsmeet, I was like WTF are you talking about? And when he does mention Orlais, it's because the people around him want to ignore Orlais as a threat, not just to put it as a secondary consideration, but to ignore it.

And don't give me this, "he doesn't know the Wardens are needed to stop the blight". He does know. Everybody knows. 

I didn't know. I thought it was an exaggeration. Maybe I haven't played enough Bioware games to recognize the trope.

That's why he keeps saying oh, it's not a true blight...because he knows if he's wrong that he's condemned Ferelden to annihilation. He just doesn't care. Annihilation is better than being ruled by Orlais in his mind.

Why is being dead better than being a slave when it comes to the elves, but when it comes to the humans, they should be willing to roll over and accept the possibility of slavery in order to avoid death?

Modifié par phaonica, 12 août 2010 - 03:50 .

[maxernst]

phaonica wrote...

maxernst wrote...
And not once in the game prior to losing the duel, does he speak of the blight as a serious threat, it's always secondary to Orlais and consolidating power.

He barely even mentions Orlais most of the game. He mentions it so rarely that the first time I played the game, and he accused me of having ties to Orlais at the Landsmeet, I was like WTF are you talking about? And when he does mention Orlais, it's because the people around him want to ignore Orlais as a threat, not just to put it as a secondary consideration, but to ignore it.

And don't give me this, "he doesn't know the Wardens are needed to stop the blight". He does know. Everybody knows. 

I didn't know. I thought it was an exaggeration. Maybe I haven't played enough Bioware games to recognize the trope.

That's why he keeps saying oh, it's not a true blight...because he knows if he's wrong that he's condemned Ferelden to annihilation. He just doesn't care. Annihilation is better than being ruled by Orlais in his mind.

Why is being dead better than being a slave when it comes to the elves, but when it comes to the humans, they should be willing to roll over and accept the possibility of slavery in order to avoid death?

Who said it was?  Is this a serious question?  For one rather obvious thing, if Orlais conquers Ferelden again, they can be thrown out again.  Extinction is permanent.  What gives Loghain the right to make such a large call for his entire nation?

[LobselVith8]

Bahlgan wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

True, but if you're playing as a Warden from the city elf background, then his slavery of your family and friends made the decision for you. Playing as a Cousland and allowing Howe to murder your family, your lover, and take up the mantle of Teyrn of Highever, makes it your right to sever his head from his neck. If you're an elven mage like my cannon, then conspiring with an imbecile like Uldred and permitting family and friends from the home you are taken from (the Denerim Alienage) to be sold into slavery by Tevinter blood mages gives you all the authority you need.

Yes!! It feels so good to hear that I am not the only one who accomodates this form of thought for my human noble! You sir, have won it right there by me! But what about the mage? I would believe the mage has a right too, though to a lesser extent, for Loghain's interference with the Circle, hence that damned Uldred.

Thank you!! I agree about the mage, especially one who was taken from the Denerim Alienage at a young age.

Sarah1281 wrote...

I never said Loghain didn't do anything that could be punishable by death, just that Alistiar's leaving isn't squeaky-clean and righteous like some people are trying to claim. What I would prefer was for a non-King Alistair to, if he absolutely must, leave your company and stay in Ferelden with somoene else's forces (possibly Eamon's) to see the Blight through. Loghain, for everything he's done wrong, can at least say that he will do that. Alistair won't. You may disagree, but I cannot justify him putting his hatred above the entire country and leaving everybody to die - even if you can win without him.

And yes, I do hold the Warden to the same standard. If, for some reason, they felt that they couldn't fight with their party anymore (say they were a HN or CE and Howe was recruited) then I would expect them to stay and fight with someone else's forces or else they would be just as morally culpable for leaving.

Leaving everyone to die? I guess I believe Alistair holds the Warden to a much higher standard as leader than you do. We aren't privy to what Alistair does, though. A hardened Alistair has King may very well fight darkspawn forces invading the capital. An unhardened Alistair might actually be fighting darkspawn in the same capacity Jowan does with those refugees, simply not with the army. How can we criticize what he does after the Landsmeet when we really don't know what it is that he's doing?

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, you know what? It's great that your elf likes Alistair better. I don't really care as it has nothing to do with what I said. What I was saying was that it is incredibly hypocritical to say that "Part of the reason I'm killing Loghain is because Alistair wants me to and you're being stupid /naive/overly sentimental/whatever to not want to kill Loghain in front of Anora. Didn't anybody ever tell you you had to have travelled with somebody on an epic quest for a year before you're allowed to have sympathy for them?" 

Elven mage, actually, but that's beside the point...  Alistair wants the man he sees as responsible for the death of his surrogate father to die, not to mention the deaths of all the Wardens in Ostagar. How is that stupid? Everyone he saw as family is dead, and Loghain not only abandoned them to the darkspawn after formulating a battle stragedy based on one he used in Gwaren, he also villified the Wardens to all of Ferelden, smearing the names of people Alistair had grown to really care for. He isn't a saint, but he certainly isn't abandoning everyone if you give mercy to the man who cost Alistair so much.

Sarah1281 wrote...

You can kill Loghain and still wish it could have been done differently because you hate the way his blood splattered all over Anora. You can spare Loghain and still understand why Alistair wants him dead. This particular point has nothing to do with who would be a good ruler and everything to do with the fact that if you're going to include the feelings of one person in your decision then you can't go around telling other people that they shouldn't be including the feelings of someone else. Maybe you don't feel Anora's feelings should at all be considered, maybe someone else doesn't feel Alistair should get a say. There is no definitive 'Alistair's feelings get to be considered while Anora's don't' as whose feelings are taken into account and whose aren't are a judgement call.

That boils down to Alistair providing elves with equality. It also has to do with the nature of Alistair's character, someone who has spilled blood alongside the Warden for over a year, and accepted all the choices that the Warden has made. Why should Alistair be villified for having a human moment involving the man who allowed his surrogate father to perish?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 août 2010 - 04:12 .

[phaonica]

maxernst wrote...

Who said it was?  Is this a serious question?  For one rather obvious thing, if Orlais conquers Ferelden again, they can be thrown out again.  Extinction is permanent. 

 
Then I guess those elves should just have been happy to be alive, and not complaining about the slavery thing. At least they'll have their opportunity to regain their freedom if they aren't dead.

What gives Loghain the right to make such a large call for his entire nation?

He didn't. He took the nation by force in attempt to protect it. He failed. That doesn't mean he didn't care.
He was trying to make sure the nation didn't *panic* and ignore whichever threats existed before the darkspawn threat even started.

[Monica21]

maxernst wrote...
And not once in the game prior to losing the duel, does he speak of the blight as a serious threat, it's always secondary to Orlais and consolidating power. What do you suppose happens to Ferelden if the PC loses the duel? Enough said.

And don't give me this, "he doesn't know the Wardens are needed to stop the blight". He does know. Everybody knows. That's why he keeps saying oh, it's not a true blight...because he knows if he's wrong that he's condemned Ferelden to annihilation. He just doesn't care. Annihilation is better than being ruled by Orlais in his mind.

He actually doesn't know the blight is true threat, nor does he actually know it's a blight. The Wardens have only been back in Ferelden for 20 years, their numbers are small, and all but two of them die at Ostagar. No one knows why the Wardens know it's a Blight. (Obviously because only the Wardens can "see" there's an Archdemon.) He doesn't have all the information, not because he didn't seek it out, but because there's no one there to give it to him.

The threat of an Orlesian invasion is very real to him. His perspective is based on what he knows. The Orlesians held Ferelden for centuries and his king wants to issue an invitation a mere 30 years after they were driven out. He drove them out once before and doesn't want to do it again. Considering what they did to the Ferelden people you can't blame him for not wanting a single Chevalier to set foot in Ferelden's borders. If you played RtO, you'll know that if Cailan had lived, Chevaliers would have arrived with the Orlesian Wardens. Not something Loghain knows at Ostagar, but enough to later prove his suspicions correct.

As for Ostagar, I haven't read the whole thread, but I hope that the battle has been discussed. It's been stated by the developers (Gaider himself, I think) that Loghain didn't have enough men to win the battle. The horde was much larger than they anticipated and he could see how the battle was going. Even if he had flanked when the signal went up it's extremely unlikely he could have made it to Cailan in time.

My view of Loghain is that he's really someone to be pitied. I'm sympathetic to his views and I understand his perspective, but it's a case of a general fighting the previous war. He doesn't know what Maric knew about the Wardens and has no reason to believe what they say over what he sees. As much as I want to keep him alive at the Landsmeet, it's the decisions he makes after Ostagar that seal his fate for me. If you've read the books, you'll know that everything he does is for Ferelden. I still believe that he thought he was acting in the best interest of Ferelden, even if his decisions simply made things worse.

[Monica21]

maxernst wrote...
Who said it was?  Is this a serious question?  For one rather obvious thing, if Orlais conquers Ferelden again, they can be thrown out again.  Extinction is permanent.  What gives Loghain the right to make such a large call for his entire nation?

Orlais didn't simply "conquer" Ferelden. They held it for over 100 years and reduced the citizens to not much more than slaves. I doubt Loghain sees it as "well, I'll just throw them out again." Easier to just keep them out then have to push them out.

[phaonica]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Leaving everyone to die? I guess I believe Alistair holds the Warden to a much higher standard as leader than you do. [/quote]

What standard? The standard for carrying out justice or the standard for fighting the Blight? A Warden's job is not carrying out justice. As a matter of fact, many of the Wardens that we've heard of were conscripted criminals. Edit: Or at least, accused criminals.






[quote]We aren't privy to what Alistair does, though. A hardened Alistair has King may very well fight darkspawn forces invading the capital. An unhardened Alistair might actually be fighting darkspawn in the same capacity Jowan does with those refugees, simply not with the army. How can we criticize what he does after the Landsmeet when we really don't know what it is that he's doing? [/quote]

That is true. My Warden can't criticize Alistair's actions until he actually does them, or when she learns about them. She knows he wasn't at the archdemon battle, but she doesn't know that he wasn't fighting the darkspawn. As a player, however, I do know. 

[quote]
[quote] Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, you know what? It's great that your elf likes Alistair better. I don't really care as it has nothing to do with what I said. What I was saying was that it is incredibly hypocritical to say that "Part of the reason I'm killing Loghain is because Alistair wants me to and you're being stupid /naive/overly sentimental/whatever to not want to kill Loghain in front of Anora. Didn't anybody ever tell you you had to have travelled with somebody on an epic quest for a year before you're allowed to have sympathy for them?" [/quote]

Elven mage, actually, but that's beside the point...  Alistair wants the man he sees as responsible for the death of his surrogate father to die, not to mention the deaths of all the Wardens in Ostagar. How is that stupid? Everyone he saw as family is dead, and Loghain not only abandoned them to the darkspawn after formulating a battle stragedy based on one he used in Gwaren, he also villified the Wardens to all of Ferelden, smearing the names of people Alistair had grown to really care for. He isn't a saint, but he certainly isn't abandoning everyone if you give mercy to the man who cost Alistair so much.
[/quote]

Sarah didn't say that Alistair's wanting justice was stupid. She was saying that those who consider Alistair's feelings and then say Anora's feelings are meaningless are being hypocritical.

[quote]
[quote] Sarah1281 wrote...

You can kill Loghain and still wish it could have been done differently because you hate the way his blood splattered all over Anora. You can spare Loghain and still understand why Alistair wants him dead. This particular point has nothing to do with who would be a good ruler and everything to do with the fact that if you're going to include the feelings of one person in your decision then you can't go around telling other people that they shouldn't be including the feelings of someone else. Maybe you don't feel Anora's feelings should at all be considered, maybe someone else doesn't feel Alistair should get a say. There is no definitive 'Alistair's feelings get to be considered while Anora's don't' as whose feelings are taken into account and whose aren't are a judgement call. [/quote]

That boils down to Alistair providing elves with equality. It also has to do with the nature of Alistair's character, someone who has spilled blood alongside the Warden for over a year, and accepted all the choices that the Warden has made. Why should Alistair be villified for having a human moment involving the man who allowed his surrogate father to perish?[/quote]
[/quote]

Nothing she said had anything to do with Alistair providing elves with equality, so how does everything she said boil down to that? 

Modifié par phaonica, 12 août 2010 - 04:44 .

[Sarah1281]

Leaving everyone to die? I guess I believe Alistair holds the Warden to a much higher standard as leader than you do. We aren't privy to what Alistair does, though. A hardened Alistair has King may very well fight darkspawn forces invading the capital. An unhardened Alistair might actually be fighting darkspawn in the same capacity Jowan does with those refugees, simply not with the army. How can we criticize what he does after the Landsmeet when we really don't know what it is that he's doing?

Elven mage, actually, but that's beside the point...  Alistair wants the man he sees as responsible for the death of his surrogate father to die, not to mention the deaths of all the Wardens in Ostagar. How is that stupid? Everyone he saw as family is dead, and Loghain not only abandoned them to the darkspawn after formulating a battle stragedy based on one he used in Gwaren, he also villified the Wardens to all of Ferelden, smearing the names of people Alistair had grown to really care for. He isn't a saint, but he certainly isn't abandoning everyone if you give mercy to the man who cost Alistair so much.

That boils down to Alistair providing elves with equality. It also has to do with the nature of Alistair's character, someone who has spilled blood alongside the Warden for over a year, and accepted all the choices that the Warden has made. Why should Alistair be villified for having a human moment involving the man who allowed his surrogate father to perish?

Wow, this is most certainly a case for this:

Quote 1) Word of God says Alistiar didn't fight the Blight. At all. I am metagaming here but since none of my characters have ever had him exiled then I kind of have to. Also, what are you even talking about? Alistair holds the Warden to a higher standard of leader (never mind that this 'higher standard' apparently translates to 'killing Loghain') and so he's so very disappointed and disillusioned that it's okay that he just up and quits the Blight and has nothing to do with trying to drive it back? I'd rather see a completely immoral Warden stopping the Blight than Alistair's moral indignation causing him to turn his back on the people of Ferelden in their time of need.

Quote 2) I didn't say 'oh, Alistair's feelings were stupid.' I said 'people keep saying that they value Alistair's feelings when making their decision but refuse to look at Anora's because she's not their best friend and considering Alistair's feelings but saying others should not consider Anora's is hypocritical.' Do you understand what that means? It's a double standard. Their are two people: Alistair and Anora. There is an issue they feel very strongly about (Loghain) and they disagree about what course of action to take.

If you decide to consider both of their feelings when making the decision or neither of their feelings then that's fine. Saying 'I will take Alistair's feelings into account but no one should care about Anora's' or 'I will take Anora's feelings into account but no one should care about Alistair's' is hypocritical. People keep telling me that I need to let what Alistair wants influence me and then turning right around and saying that Anora is not their best friend so therefore they and everybody else aren't supposed to care at all what she thinks.

Quote 3) Yeah, no it doesn't. It has nothing to do with equality for elves. That might explain why you're such a supporter of King Alistair but it has nothing to do with what I said. You know why? I wasn't talking about who should get the throne. I was, once again, talking about how if you believe that you should take NPCs feelings into account then you shouldn't tell others that they aren't supposed to take the feelings of a different NPC than the one you listen to into account. You may decide that you feel Alistair's burning hatred is valid and Anora 'deserves' to have her father killed in front of her for whatever reason but that's hardly a fact. Many people agree with you and many don't. There is no right answer for who you should listen to or whose feelings are valid. Again, this has nothing to do with elves. At all. Loghain selling elves into slavery does not automatically mean that you can't feel badly for Anora for how Loghain's death, if it comes to that, plays out.

[FiliusMartis]

I'm sorry, but is there anything that suggests Orlais was an immediate threat? There were two people from Orlais that were not Fereldan citiziens: Marjolaine and Riordan, and neither of them were marching in armies.



I see it often said in Loghain's defense that he doesn't know it's a true Blight. I also see it said that he had to pull out his army at Ostagar because the horde that showed up was so immense. Considering that darkspawn only attack the surface in 'rag tag groups' unless a Blight is on the horizon, a marching army large enough to scare Fereldan's "greatest general" off should be sufficient to convince him that something's happening. If you don't buy that he needed to retreat and think it was part of the coup, then all the refugees fleeing the darkspawn, the occupation of Ostagar, and the destruction of the southern lands like Lothering should suffice to show that they are the true threat.



I've seen multiple answers for how long the game spans, ranging from 18 months to around two years (anyone with a source would be sincerely and greatly appreciated), but in this time I don't see Loghain sending his army to fight the darkspawn at all. He does try to get dwarven allegiance, though I'm not sure to what end.

[ArawnNox]

Here's my reasoning for Loghain seeing Orlais as an imminent threat: They were on their way. Remember, Cailen talks about waiting for the Orleasians to join them at Ostagar, and Duncan talks about more Grey Wardens coming from Orlais as well. If I remember right, Riordan mentions that the Orlesian Grey Wardens were turned away at the border, which is why he was sent in alone. Also, if you speak to Loghain, he mentions that forces were divided to secure the border, and deal with the darkspawn/civil war. Not a sound strategy, and a mess up he freely admits to.