1092 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

By the way, if the only reason Orlais doesn't attack is because of Loghain, why doesn't Celene attack immediately after the Blight. The-great-hero-without-whom-Ferelden-is-doomed is either dead or in Orlais, the Warden's armies have gone home, Ferelden must have suffered terrible losses to its military between Ostagar, the civil war and the blight. Surely, if Orlais were really considering an invasion in this time frame, they would have done it?



My PC is not in Loghain's head, nor has he read the Stolen Throne. I say again, I bet most of the most terrible dictators in history believed that their actions were justified. And sure, if you're human, you're aware of Loghain's heroic past. But you know, Robert Mugabe was once a great hero to his people. Well into the 1990's, he was widely respected internationally. And I'm sure, everything he's done is justified in his own mind. That doesn't make it okay.



As far as Alistair goes, yep, it's a dreadful decision to abandon the Wardens. But if I'm forced to choose between someone who's makes one really horrible decision in a moment of anger and another who's makes a ton of dreadful decisions given ample time to reconsider--it's not a hard choice.

[maxernst]

ArawnNox wrote...

Here's my reasoning for Loghain seeing Orlais as an imminent threat: They were on their way. Remember, Cailen talks about waiting for the Orleasians to join them at Ostagar, and Duncan talks about more Grey Wardens coming from Orlais as well. If I remember right, Riordan mentions that the Orlesian Grey Wardens were turned away at the border, which is why he was sent in alone. Also, if you speak to Loghain, he mentions that forces were divided to secure the border, and deal with the darkspawn/civil war. Not a sound strategy, and a mess up he freely admits to.

So faced with possibly facing two enemies who will certainly fight each other given the opportunity, he divides his forces, placing some of them inbetween the enemies?  Further proof that he is too stupid to be allowed to live.

[Sarah1281]

As far as Alistair goes, yep, it's a dreadful decision to abandon the Wardens. But if I'm forced to choose between someone who's makes one really horrible decision in a moment of anger and another who's makes a ton of dreadful decisions given ample time to reconsider--it's not a hard choice.

I don't think believing that Alistair makes a very stupid, horrible decision automatically exonerates Loghain. I know what Loghain's done but that doesn't make Alistair's choice to abandon Ferelden during a Blight any better.

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As far as Alistair goes, yep, it's a dreadful decision to abandon the Wardens. But if I'm forced to choose between someone who's makes one really horrible decision in a moment of anger and another who's makes a ton of dreadful decisions given ample time to reconsider--it's not a hard choice.

I don't think believing that Alistair makes a very stupid, horrible decision automatically exonerates Loghain. I know what Loghain's done but that doesn't make Alistair's choice to abandon Ferelden during a Blight any better.

But you still choose Loghain over Alistair.

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

As far as Alistair goes, yep, it's a dreadful decision to abandon the Wardens. But if I'm forced to choose between someone who's makes one really horrible decision in a moment of anger and another who's makes a ton of dreadful decisions given ample time to reconsider--it's not a hard choice.

I don't think believing that Alistair makes a very stupid, horrible decision automatically exonerates Loghain. I know what Loghain's done but that doesn't make Alistair's choice to abandon Ferelden during a Blight any better.

But you still choose Loghain over Alistair.

No, I chose to spare Loghain and Alistair didn't like that decision so he quit to go marry Anora. All in all, it was probably for the best as he, the future King, didn't risk dying but in cases where this doesn't happen and he just leaves I can't justify that behavior.

[maxernst]

Sarah1281 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

As far as Alistair goes, yep, it's a dreadful decision to abandon the Wardens. But if I'm forced to choose between someone who's makes one really horrible decision in a moment of anger and another who's makes a ton of dreadful decisions given ample time to reconsider--it's not a hard choice.

I don't think believing that Alistair makes a very stupid, horrible decision automatically exonerates Loghain. I know what Loghain's done but that doesn't make Alistair's choice to abandon Ferelden during a Blight any better.

But you still choose Loghain over Alistair.

No, I chose to spare Loghain and Alistair didn't like that decision so he quit to go marry Anora. All in all, it was probably for the best as he, the future King, didn't risk dying but in cases where this doesn't happen and he just leaves I can't justify that behavior.

Well, you've repeatedly made the comment that Loghain would never abandon like that, which sure makes it sound like you think Loghain's a better human being.

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

As far as Alistair goes, yep, it's a dreadful decision to abandon the Wardens. But if I'm forced to choose between someone who's makes one really horrible decision in a moment of anger and another who's makes a ton of dreadful decisions given ample time to reconsider--it's not a hard choice.

I don't think believing that Alistair makes a very stupid, horrible decision automatically exonerates Loghain. I know what Loghain's done but that doesn't make Alistair's choice to abandon Ferelden during a Blight any better.

But you still choose Loghain over Alistair.

No, I chose to spare Loghain and Alistair didn't like that decision so he quit to go marry Anora. All in all, it was probably for the best as he, the future King, didn't risk dying but in cases where this doesn't happen and he just leaves I can't justify that behavior.

Well, you've repeatedly made the comment that Loghain would never abandon like that, which sure makes it sound like you think Loghain's a better human being.

I've never happened to compare how the two stack up as human beings. I do believe that Loghain would never have completely abandoned Ferelden - if nothing else - and Alistair did. That doesn't automatically mean Loghain's a better person, just that he doesn't have that particular (huge) flaw. You could just as easily say that Alistair would never have political rivals poisoned or sell elves into slavery. Loghain's comparative morality doesn't make what Alistair did any better or worse.

[DragonRacer13]

FiliusMartis wrote...
I've seen multiple answers for how long the game spans, ranging from 18 months to around two years (anyone with a source would be sincerely and greatly appreciated), but in this time I don't see Loghain sending his army to fight the darkspawn at all. He does try to get dwarven allegiance, though I'm not sure to what end.

I honestly can't say how long the game lasts overall. However, if you play a mage origin and save the mages during the Broken Circle quest, you eventually get some camp dialogue with Wynne (can't remember how high her approval rating has to be for the particular conversation I recall) where you two can do some mage-to-mage talking and she mentions, in passing, that it's been either 'a little over a year' or 'almost a year' (I don't remember verbatim) since you'd left the tower (after your original origin ended and Duncan recruited you).

Now, that "just about a year" timeframe can vary, obviously, depending on just how much stuff you do between gaining Wynne and actually having that conversation with her. But that bit of dialogue makes me think the writers were steering this whole game timeframe to be a year to a year and a half? Just my guesstimate, though.

[Khavos]

Monica21 wrote...
As for Ostagar, I haven't read the whole thread, but I hope that the battle has been discussed. It's been stated by the developers (Gaider himself, I think) that Loghain didn't have enough men to win the battle. The horde was much larger than they anticipated and he could see how the battle was going. Even if he had flanked when the signal went up it's extremely unlikely he could have made it to Cailan in time.

Gaider's quotes have been posted in this thread, yes.  You're seriously misrepresenting them.  Gaider never said that Loghain didn't have enough men to win the battle, and that had already put a plan in place before the battle that would allow him to retreat and leave the rest of the army to die without looking like a coward, which is why he and Uldred wanted control of the beacon. 

[ArawnNox]

maxernst wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Here's my reasoning for Loghain seeing Orlais as an imminent threat: They were on their way. Remember, Cailen talks about waiting for the Orleasians to join them at Ostagar, and Duncan talks about more Grey Wardens coming from Orlais as well. If I remember right, Riordan mentions that the Orlesian Grey Wardens were turned away at the border, which is why he was sent in alone. Also, if you speak to Loghain, he mentions that forces were divided to secure the border, and deal with the darkspawn/civil war. Not a sound strategy, and a mess up he freely admits to.

So faced with possibly facing two enemies who will certainly fight each other given the opportunity, he divides his forces, placing some of them inbetween the enemies?  Further proof that he is too stupid to be allowed to live.

That's almost exactly what the PC can say: "Why would you divide our forces?"
Again, he admits it was stupid, but seemed like the best idea at the time, to him.
To his credit, he doesn't make a whole lot of excuses for his actions, or expect forgiveness. Indeed, he wishes to "do one thing right" when he wishes to kill the archdemon.
I can respect his character on a few levels. It doesn't mean I like him.

[LobselVith8]

phaonica wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Leaving everyone to die? I guess I believe Alistair holds the Warden to a much higher standard as leader than you do.

What standard? The standard for carrying out justice or the standard for fighting the Blight? A Warden's job is not carrying out justice. As a matter of fact, many of the Wardens that we've heard of were conscripted criminals. Edit: Or at least, accused criminals.

I meant the Warden's capabilities as the leader of the armies that he or she has amassed to fight against the darkspawn. Alistair doesn't leave thinking that everything is going to fall apart - the Warden has been the one responsible for tackling the difficult issues of the dwarves, the elves, the mages, and the humans at Redcliffe. Alistair leaving may be wrong, but he isn't dooming Ferelden by leaving since the leader of the armies remains. Odd how someone misunderstands what I say and I don't reduce it to a ridiculous picture of a strawman because of it...

phaonica wrote...

That is true. My Warden can't criticize Alistair's actions until he actually does them, or when she learns about them. She knows he wasn't at the archdemon battle, but she doesn't know that he wasn't fighting the darkspawn. As a player, however, I do know. 

Nobody really knows what Alistair does after the Landsmeet. Even what little is mentioned in the epilogue is rumor. Why some people feel the need to make it sound like Alistair is abandoning all of humanity to death because he can't fight at the side of the man responsible for the death of his family (the Wardens) is what gets to me. He's human, he's not perfect, he's not infallible.

phaonica wrote...

Sarah didn't say that Alistair's wanting justice was stupid. She was saying that those who consider Alistair's feelings and then say Anora's feelings are meaningless are being hypocritical.

Personally, I've never said Anora's feelings are meaningless. Someone is going to get hurt whether or not Loghain is killed. I pair a hardened Alistair with Anora, but she's certainly dropped the ball when it comes to the alienage. As for Alistair leaving the Landsmeet if Loghain is chosen, why is anyone surprised? My main problem with Sarah's argument is that it steams from this comment:

Sarah1281 wrote...

You're seeing it as 'one man deserted' which, in and of itself, is a crime punishable by death as we've seen in Awakenings. I see it as 'one of three-hopefully-four GW who, while they may not know why they are needed, understand that they are necessary for ending the Blight walks out and if Ferelden falls...well, they shouldn't have spared Loghain.' Alistair may not be a part of any army and so it may not be legally wrong for him to leave but I feel it is morally wrong for him to do so.  

Yes, Alistair left. He wasn't part of the army, he voluntarily aided the Warden in gathering an army in order to stop the Blight, but he's also a human being who lost the closest thing he has to a father and family because Loghain abandoned them in a stragedy he previously used in Gwaren. As for killing Loghain, the Hero of River Dane does a lot of things that make it clear that a Warden who has lost his Cousland family members because of his alliance with Arl Howe or witnessed his or her fellow elves being sold into slavery directly because of Loghain might not think that Loghain deserves any mercy at all. How it's morally wrong for a man not to want to work with someone who is responsible for the deaths of his family boggles the mind.

phaonica wrote...

Nothing she said had anything to do with Alistair providing elves with equality, so how does everything she said boil down to that? 

I wrote it as part of the prior comment she made about my Warden being an elf, but I broke it up into two different quotes to make it easier to read. Maybe I shouldn't have divded the quotes, but again, I doubt that many people in the real world would want to work with a man they view as a regicide (who was also Alistair's brother), who had hunted down Alistair and his fellow Warden for over a year and nearly lead the nation to its doom.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Quote 1) Word of God says Alistiar didn't fight the Blight. At all. I am metagaming here but since none of my characters have ever had him exiled then I kind of have to. Also, what are you even talking about? Alistair holds the Warden to a higher standard of leader (never mind that this 'higher standard' apparently translates to 'killing Loghain') and so he's so very disappointed and disillusioned that it's okay that he just up and quits the Blight and has nothing to do with trying to drive it back? I'd rather see a completely immoral Warden stopping the Blight than Alistair's moral indignation causing him to turn his back on the people of Ferelden in their time of need.

My comment had to do with the Warden's capability as a leader. I'm saying that Alistair knows the Warden can lead people. He isn't abandoning Ferelden to fall to the clutches of the darkspawn because the Warden remains the leader of the armies.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Quote 2) I didn't say 'oh, Alistair's feelings were stupid.' I said 'people keep saying that they value Alistair's feelings when making their decision but refuse to look at Anora's because she's not their best friend and considering Alistair's feelings but saying others should not consider Anora's is hypocritical.' Do you understand what that means? It's a double standard. Their are two people: Alistair and Anora. There is an issue they feel very strongly about (Loghain) and they disagree about what course of action to take.

If you decide to consider both of their feelings when making the decision or neither of their feelings then that's fine. Saying 'I will take Alistair's feelings into account but no one should care about Anora's' or 'I will take Anora's feelings into account but no one should care about Alistair's' is hypocritical. People keep telling me that I need to let what Alistair wants influence me and then turning right around and saying that Anora is not their best friend so therefore they and everybody else aren't supposed to care at all what she thinks.

People probably mention Alistair's feelings because they talk from the POV of a Warden who is friends with Alistair. They're talking about why they personally chose to heed Alistair's advice about Loghain because they don't think it's unreasonable. I wouldn't call sparing Loghain evil, I don't think Anora's feelings shouldn't be taken into account at the Landsmeet, but I'm saying that some of their actions probably account for why some people don't allow those things to sway them into sparing Loghain. Yes, I've mentioned the elven perspective, but I've also mentioned the Cousland perspective as well. I'm not saying there's a correct course of action, it's really not black and white, but people do write from their POV at times when describing the choices they make.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Quote 3) Yeah, no it doesn't. It has nothing to do with equality for elves. That might explain why you're such a supporter of King Alistair but it has nothing to do with what I said. You know why? I wasn't talking about who should get the throne. I was, once again, talking about how if you believe that you should take NPCs feelings into account then you shouldn't tell others that they aren't supposed to take the feelings of a different NPC than the one you listen to into account. You may decide that you feel Alistair's burning hatred is valid and Anora 'deserves' to have her father killed in front of her for whatever reason but that's hardly a fact. Many people agree with you and many don't. There is no right answer for who you should listen to or whose feelings are valid. Again, this has nothing to do with elves. At all. Loghain selling elves into slavery does not automatically mean that you can't feel badly for Anora for how Loghain's death, if it comes to that, plays out.

I find it funny that you mentioned my Warden being an elf, and when I respond to it, now it doesn't have anything to do with anything. Or put forth the notion that I'm describing a "correct" course of action when I'm merely providing an alternative viewpoint to yours. Let's put that aside: I'm not saying there's any right answer to this, but I find it ludicrious that some people think Alistair is acting immoral when he refuses to work with Loghain if he is spared. Alistair not wanting to work with the man who abandoned his brother, his surrogate father and family to die doesn't seem immoral to me. And since nobody knows what he did when he left the Landsmeet, he could have been fighting to defend people from darkspawn without any army, using only his templar skills just like Jowan does in "Jowan's Intention." Again, since we don't know what he does, all we do know is that he won't work with the man who cost him his family. Alistair's human, he makes mistakes, he - like any other person - can be overwhelmed by his emotions, especially when it comes to a man who has cost him so much.

[ArawnNox]

Khavos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
As for Ostagar, I haven't read the whole thread, but I hope that the battle has been discussed. It's been stated by the developers (Gaider himself, I think) that Loghain didn't have enough men to win the battle. The horde was much larger than they anticipated and he could see how the battle was going. Even if he had flanked when the signal went up it's extremely unlikely he could have made it to Cailan in time.

Gaider's quotes have been posted in this thread, yes.  You're seriously misrepresenting them.  Gaider never said that Loghain didn't have enough men to win the battle, and that had already put a plan in place before the battle that would allow him to retreat and leave the rest of the army to die without looking like a coward, which is why he and Uldred wanted control of the beacon. 

I was puzzling over his withdraw from Ostagar recently and the signal. That makes sense. I'm reluctant to share my theories on the battle, though.

[Khavos]

ArawnNox wrote...

Here's my reasoning for Loghain seeing Orlais as an imminent threat: They were on their way. Remember, Cailen talks about waiting for the Orleasians to join them at Ostagar, and Duncan talks about more Grey Wardens coming from Orlais as well. If I remember right, Riordan mentions that the Orlesian Grey Wardens were turned away at the border, which is why he was sent in alone. Also, if you speak to Loghain, he mentions that forces were divided to secure the border, and deal with the darkspawn/civil war. Not a sound strategy, and a mess up he freely admits to.

Yes, the Orlesians were sending chevaliers with the Grey Wardens.  Riordan himself mentions this.

The main problem with the game's storyline, in my opinion, is that it seriously underepresents the threat of a Blight; you and your plucky band of superfriends waltz around Ferelden for a while, and stop it without serious issue practically alone.  All previous campaigns against Blights lasted at least a decade, requiring huge coalition armies and as many Grey Wardens as could possibly get there.  It's mentioned that the Fifth Blight in the game hadn't even actually really started before you ended it. 

Frankly, I think the single biggest indicator that Orlais isn't a serious threat is the fact that their legions of chevaliers, when stopped at the border...actually stop.  To be perfectly honest, were I the ruler of Orlais and the Grey Wardens stationed in my country informed me that a Blight had started next door, and I sent a ton of troops to help end it, only to discover that they were stopped at the border while the Fereldens had themselves a civil war as the result of a coup, and were not even bothering to fight the darkspawn at that point...I'd ignore the border stopping in a heartbeat.  Blights are a far, far more serious threat than any war between countries, and they only grow in strength until they're stopped. 

Loghain was a paranoid fool in the game.  There are reasons to let him live, but let's not pretend like his decisions were rational and in the best interests of Ferelden.  He came within an inch or two of turning his entire country into a Blight-land. 

Modifié par Khavos, 12 août 2010 - 08:26 .

[Sarah1281]

Odd how someone misunderstands what I say and I don't reduce it to a ridiculous picture of a strawman because of it...

Did you misunderstand EVERYTHING I said? If that's the case then I apologize but it did seem rather unlikely.

Yes, Alistair left. He wasn't part of the army, he voluntarily aided the Warden in gathering an army in order to stop the Blight, but he's also a human being who lost the closest thing he has to a father and family because Loghain abandoned them in a stragedy he previously used in Gwaren. As for killing Loghain, the Hero of River Dane does a lot of things that make it clear that a Warden who has lost his Cousland family members because of his alliance with Arl Howe or witnessed his or her fellow elves being sold into slavery directly because of Loghain might not think that Loghain deserves any mercy at all. How it's morally wrong for a man not to want to work with someone who is responsible for the deaths of his family boggles the mind.

I don't see the Wardens as the purely volunteer organization you seem to. Volunteers can't be conscripted, after all. The right of conscription alone makes it seem like they actually have an obligation to end the Blight, if nothing else. I can't consider it morally wrong for Alistair to leave the party but it's a far cry from that to up and leaving the country. Which is has been confirmed that he did when not King.

My comment had to do with the Warden's capability as a leader. I'm saying that Alistair knows the Warden can lead people. He isn't abandoning Ferelden to fall to the clutches of the darkspawn because the Warden remains the leader of the armies.

So you'd be fine with your, say, non-HN Warden deciding to leave because they're pissed they can't be King/Queen or whatever else they had a problem with because Alistiar would remain to lead the armies? It's not about 'well, we can beat this without you so feel free to leave.' I know you think the Wardens are volunteers but in the army they can probably get their job done if only one person left. Is that allowed? Hardly. And I wasn't saying Alistair's Loghain hatred is on the same level as a Warden's potential hissy fit they can't be the monarch so no need to try and impress upon me how much more serious it is. It's just an example.

People probably mention Alistair's feelings because they talk from the POV of a Warden who is friends with Alistair. They're talking about why they personally chose to heed Alistair's advice about Loghain because they don't think it's unreasonable. I wouldn't call sparing Loghain evil, I don't think Anora's feelings shouldn't be taken into account at the Landsmeet, but I'm saying that some of their actions probably account for why some people don't allow those things to sway them into sparing Loghain. Yes, I've mentioned the elven perspective, but I've also mentioned the Cousland perspective as well. I'm not saying there's a correct course of action, it's really not black and white, but people do write from their POV at times when describing the choices they make.

I know there isn't a right/wrong option and that the people who consider Alistair's POV are usually friends/LI with him. That doesn't mean that those who specifically say that they consider Alistiar's feelings and no one should consider Anora's (and people in this thread and others have said that) aren't being hypocrites. You don't have to consider their feelings but you shouldn't go around telling other people that their feelings are not worthy of consideration so they're doing it wrong.

I find it funny that you mentioned my Warden being an elf, and when I respond to it, now it doesn't have anything to do with anything. Or put forth the notion that I'm describing a "correct" course of action when I'm merely providing an alternative viewpoint to yours. Let's put that aside: I'm not saying there's any right answer to this, but I find it ludicrious that some people think Alistair is acting immoral when he refuses to work with Loghain if he is spared. Alistair not wanting to work with the man who abandoned his brother, his surrogate father and family to die doesn't seem immoral to me. And since nobody knows what he did when he left the Landsmeet, he could have been fighting to defend people from darkspawn without any army, using only his templar skills just like Jowan does in "Jowan's Intention." Again, since we don't know what he does, all we do know is that he won't work with the man who cost him his family. Alistair's human, he makes mistakes, he - like any other person - can be overwhelmed by his emotions, especially when it comes to a man who has cost him so much.

I said something like 'it's great that your elf Warden likes Alistair better but it has nothing to do with what I said.' That does, in fact, reference that your Warden is an elf. It also doesn't make why an elf would want Loghain dead or Alistair on the throne any more relevant, particularly as I only referenced it to point out it had nothing to do with what we were talking about. I might have said 'it's great that your Warden likes Alistair better but it has nothing to do with what I said.'



Our characters may not know that Alistair doesn't help with the Blight BUT ITS BEEN CONFIRMED THAT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED. Do you really need someone to dig up the quote for you?



And I've never said Alistair should stay with the party. What I feel is that he should stay with the freaking country and not cut and run. Which he does.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't see the Wardens as the purely volunteer organization you seem to. Volunteers can't be conscripted, after all. The right of conscription alone makes it seem like they actually have an obligation to end the Blight, if nothing else. I can't consider it morally wrong for Alistair to leave the party but it's a far cry from that to up and leaving the country. Which is has been confirmed that he did when not King. 

Considering that Gaider also referenced that Duncan himself would have left Ferelden after the betrayal at Ostagar, I'd say that Alistair was admirable in wanting to stay and save Ferelden. As for what's cannon concerning what he did post-Landsmeet if Loghain is spared and he isn't hardened, I'm pretty sure that I can also reference that Leliana's Song contradicts what Leliana tells you in DA:O since it takes place in Denerim (and not Orlais) simply because they felt like changing it. So the idea that Alistair did nothing is only true until they decide to change it like they did with Leliana's backstory.

Sarah1281 wrote...

So you'd be fine with your, say, non-HN Warden deciding to leave because they're pissed they can't be King/Queen or whatever else they had a problem with because Alistiar would remain to lead the armies? It's not about 'well, we can beat this without you so feel free to leave.' I know you think the Wardens are volunteers but in the army they can probably get their job done if only one person left. Is that allowed? Hardly. And I wasn't saying Alistair's Loghain hatred is on the same level as a Warden's potential hissy fit they can't be the monarch so no need to try and impress upon me how much more serious it is. It's just an example. 

The Warden is the leader of the armies. Alistair isn't. Why you feel like it's immoral of Alistair not to work with a man who cost him his family and who he likely wouldn't be able to function well in combat alongside is something I don't understand.  I'm basically arguing that Alistair shouldn't be villified for his refusal to not work with a man who cost him his family, which I think is very human of him.

Sarah1281 wrote...

I know there isn't a right/wrong option and that the people who consider Alistair's POV are usually friends/LI with him. That doesn't mean that those who specifically say that they consider Alistiar's feelings and no one should consider Anora's (and people in this thread and others have said that) aren't being hypocrites. You don't have to consider their feelings but you shouldn't go around telling other people that their feelings are not worthy of consideration so they're doing it wrong. 

People have made arguments for and against Alistair. This thread started with someone finding it incredulous that Loghain would be spared despite all he'd done. And people on both sides have either dismissed Loghain, Anora, or Alistair throughout this discussion.

[Monica21]

Khavos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
As for Ostagar, I haven't read the whole thread, but I hope that the battle has been discussed. It's been stated by the developers (Gaider himself, I think) that Loghain didn't have enough men to win the battle. The horde was much larger than they anticipated and he could see how the battle was going. Even if he had flanked when the signal went up it's extremely unlikely he could have made it to Cailan in time.

Gaider's quotes have been posted in this thread, yes.  You're seriously misrepresenting them.  Gaider never said that Loghain didn't have enough men to win the battle, and that had already put a plan in place before the battle that would allow him to retreat and leave the rest of the army to die without looking like a coward, which is why he and Uldred wanted control of the beacon. 

This isn't the first time I've posted in a thread like this, but I never recall Gaider saying "Loghain planned a retreat to keep from looking like a coward." Perhaps you could point me to the correct page so I can interpret it myself.

[Sarah1281]

Considering that Gaider also referenced that Duncan himself would have left Ferelden after the betrayal at Ostagar, I'd say that Alistair was admirable in wanting to stay and save Ferelden. As for what's cannon concerning what he did post-Landsmeet if Loghain is spared and he isn't hardened, I'm pretty sure that I can also reference that Leliana's Song contradicts what Leliana tells you in DA:O since it takes place in Denerim (and not Orlais) simply because they felt like changing it. So the idea that Alistair did nothing is only true until they decide to change it like they did with Leliana's backstory.

And I also feel that Duncan leaving Ferelden to fall would be morally wrong. Duncan would likely agree with that but say that it was necessary to stop the Blight (which it wasn't but he can't be blamed for not being psychic). Necessary =/= morally right. And Alistair leaving isn't in any way necessary. Also, Leliana makes it clear that the events of her song aren't actually unfolding in the present but she's telling the tale. Whether her Origins version of events, her song version, or neither is what really happened I don't know. It might be to save time/resources in crafting part of Orlais that they set it in Denerim but a bard who, by her very nature, exaggerates things to make them more exciting giving two conflicting version of events is hardly retconning.



I bet that if she's at the final battle with you and you ended up throwing your forces like cannon fodder at the Archdmon while you just killed it by inches with a ballista and someone asks her for the tale, she's not exactly going to be admitting that, either.

The Warden is the leader of the armies. Alistair isn't. Why you feel like it's immoral of Alistair not to work with a man who cost him his family and who he likely wouldn't be able to function well in combat alongside is something I don't understand. I'm basically arguing that Alistair shouldn't be villified for his refusal to not work with a man who cost him his family, which I think is very human of him.

You didn't answer my question. If the Warden leaves at the Landsmeet before anyone can appoint them the leader of the army then they are NOT the leader. If they leave, are they justified because they don't have an official position?



And I strongly disagree that Alistair's hatred of Loghain is enough to justify him not feeling he's able to serve in the same COUNTRY as him. I'm not saying he should stay in the party. He can leave the party. He can go serve with Eamon's men. He wouldnt' even have to look at Loghain or acknowledge he's still alive. Once the Blight is over, then he can leave the country forever and no one would think less of him for it. And, again, just because Alistair has a human reaction does not mean that this reaction is good. I refuse to believe that 'oh, it's a very human reaction' is enough to justify someone's actions. It might be a very human action to torture Howe to death, for instance, as a HN. Does that mean that someone who does did something morally good? Hardly. It might be understandable to some but it can still be judged.

People have made arguments for and against Alistair. This thread started with someone finding it incredulous that Loghain would be spared despite all he'd done. And people on both sides have either dismissed Loghain, Anora, or Alistair throughout this discussion.

People can feel free to say that they don't take what so-and-so thinks and feels into account. If anyone said 'I don't care about what Alistair thinks but I'm going to listen very closely to Anora's desires' then that's equally hypocritical.

[Khavos]

Monica21 wrote...

This isn't the first time I've posted in a thread like this, but I never recall Gaider saying "Loghain planned a retreat to keep from looking like a coward." Perhaps you could point me to the correct page so I can interpret it myself.

I'll do you one better:

David Gaider wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
But what about the poisoning of Arl Eamon through Jowan? Wasn't this decided and accomplished before Ostagar?

Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed  too many tears over it.

And, while we're at it, I'm completely wrong in thinking that Loghain and - especially - Uldred had a say in the Tower of Ishal being swamped by darkspwan? I don't why, but it always strikes me as odd that Uldred
proposed to use the mages for light the beacon and that the beacon was the signal Loghain was waiting to go away.

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

Modifié par Khavos, 12 août 2010 - 10:01 .

[ArawnNox]

If that's not a clear indicator that Loghain was planning on betraying Cailen, then I don't know what is.

[Sarah1281]

It's a clear indicator that he was open to the POSSIBILITY of doing it and tried to set it up so that if he did go that route it wouldn't be questioned, sure.

[maxernst]

Even if Ostagar was unwinnable as it stands, my suspicion is that Loghain had a way through if he wasn't so obsessed with Orlais. Don't poison Eamon so his troops don't go wandering hither and thither chasing rumors of the urn, and work with Duncan (who seemed worried about the upcoming battle) to get Cailan to wait until Eamon's troops arrive. With the extra troops the battle is probably winnable and Duncan kills the Archdemon if it shows up. Would make for a boring game, though.

[Sarah1281]

maxernst wrote...

Even if Ostagar was unwinnable as it stands, my suspicion is that Loghain had a way through if he wasn't so obsessed with Orlais. Don't poison Eamon so his troops don't go wandering hither and thither chasing rumors of the urn, and work with Duncan (who seemed worried about the upcoming battle) to get Cailan to wait until Eamon's troops arrive. With the extra troops the battle is probably winnable and Duncan kills the Archdemon if it shows up. Would make for a boring game, though.

Cailan wouldn't let Eamon's troops show up, though, probably because he didn't want Eamon to start up on his 'put Anora aside' campaign that RtO shows he was talking about again when Loghain was hovering over his shoulder.

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's a clear indicator that he was open to the POSSIBILITY of doing it and tried to set it up so that if he did go that route it wouldn't be questioned, sure.

No.  Loghain was definitely planning on betraying Cailan.  Ostagar was one of multiple options for it.  There is simply no doubt that he was planning a coup, however. 

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's a clear indicator that he was open to the POSSIBILITY of doing it and tried to set it up so that if he did go that route it wouldn't be questioned, sure.

No.  Loghain was definitely planning on betraying Cailan.  Ostagar was one of multiple options for it.  There is simply no doubt that he was planning a coup, however. 

I meant 'betraying him at Ostagar.'

[Monica21]

Khavos wrote...
I'll do you one better:

David Gaider wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
But what about the poisoning of Arl Eamon through Jowan? Wasn't this decided and accomplished before Ostagar?

Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed  too many tears over it.

And, while we're at it, I'm completely wrong in thinking that Loghain and - especially - Uldred had a say in the Tower of Ishal being swamped by darkspwan? I don't why, but it always strikes me as odd that Uldred
proposed to use the mages for light the beacon and that the beacon was the signal Loghain was waiting to go away.

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

As someone upthread said, it shows that Loghain was open to the possibility of retreating. The fact is though, regicide wasn't exactly his highest priority considering he was trying to prevent Cailan from being on the front lines. He didn't think much of Cailan's leadership abilities and didn't take kindly to being questioned on strategy, but he did know that he could only do so much before the king got himself killed, at Ostagar or somewhere else. I think Loghain is entirely correct when he tells Anora that Cailan's death was his own doing.

So, what do you do with a young king who's entralled with the idea of glorious battles but doesn't know what it is to really fight? Not much. You do what you can, but Loghain knew that Cailan's chasing of fantasy would get the better of him. Loghain's "what if" preparations were not for him, but for Ferelden. He wanted to ensure Ferelden was safe and stable, but didn't think Cailan would be able to do it. Note, again, that I don't in any way believe that Loghain's intention was to kill Cailan or attempt a coup at Ostagar. He knew Cailan well enough to know that he could only survive by luck and when that ran out, Loghain would have plans in place for what would hopefully be a peaceful transition to Anora's rule.