1092 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

One thing I will never do is spare a man who took a truly massive army from the field, abandoning the people who expected his help, and which was his own plan, allowed a lacky to slaughter a noble family, poisoned the head of another, and sold people to finance his bid to control the country. Loghain always dies.

I assume you refer to Howe, right? Hasn't it already been made clear that Loghain had nothing to do with the murder of the Couslands?

He gave Howe a free hand, and I don't believe that he didn't know the kind of man Howe was, so I see him as bearing responsibility. And while he may not have intended to abandon the field from the beginning, he had something in the works, abetted by Howe, as indicated by his poisoning of Eamon, and staking Berwick out to watch for changes. Different interpretations can be put on those things, purposefully, but that's the way I take it.

[Terastar]

I do have a question. This is something that has always bothered me.

What happened to that really huge army of Loghain's?? In the cut scene it is really huge going over a range of mountains. No matter if you spare him or not there simply is no army. It's a good thing as a Grey Warden you have collected your own. What benefit does sparing him serve? NONE!! he dies every time.

[Sarah1281]

Terastar wrote...

I do have a question. This is something that has always bothered me.
What happened to that really huge army of Loghain's?? In the cut scene it is really huge going over a range of mountains. No matter if you spare him or not there simply is no army. It's a good thing as a Grey Warden you have collected your own. What benefit does sparing him serve? NONE!! he dies every time.

Well, I assume that they're part of the whole Ferelden army (seriously, Eamon's men don't make up everyone even if they are the only ones you can call upon). There are troops already in the city when you arrive with the Redcliffe forces and Loghain's men are probably among them. Keep in mind that they've been whittled down due to the civil war raging since Ostagar.

[BramAlam12345]

Terastar wrote...

 Keep in mind that they've been whittled down due to the civil war raging since Ostagar.

In part due to their several in-game encounters with a certain Grey Warden...

[Khavos]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

One thing I will never do is spare a man who took a truly massive army from the field, abandoning the people who expected his help, and which was his own plan, allowed a lacky to slaughter a noble family, poisoned the head of another, and sold people to finance his bid to control the country. Loghain always dies.

I assume you refer to Howe, right? Hasn't it already been made clear that Loghain had nothing to do with the murder of the Couslands?

No.  It's entirely possible, and arguably even probable, that Loghain didn't tell Howe to slaughter the Couslands.  However, there's no way Howe slaughters the Couslands thinking that Cailan's going to be in a position to do something about it.  While Loghain may not have told Howe to murder them, he certainly told Howe that he was planning some sort of coup. 

[errant_knight]

Double Post

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 août 2010 - 08:29 .

[errant_knight]

Khavos wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

One thing I will never do is spare a man who took a truly massive army from the field, abandoning the people who expected his help, and which was his own plan, allowed a lacky to slaughter a noble family, poisoned the head of another, and sold people to finance his bid to control the country. Loghain always dies.

I assume you refer to Howe, right? Hasn't it already been made clear that Loghain had nothing to do with the murder of the Couslands?

No.  It's entirely possible, and arguably even probable, that Loghain didn't tell Howe to slaughter the Couslands.  However, there's no way Howe slaughters the Couslands thinking that Cailan's going to be in a position to do something about it.  While Loghain may not have told Howe to murder them, he certainly told Howe that he was planning some sort of coup.  

I have to agree. We see that Cailan's not the sort to tolerate this sort of thing at all. His immediate response is to hang Howe as soon as possible. There's no way Howe would do what he did if he didn't believe that Cailan would be in no position to respond. Bryce and Cailan both say that they don't know how he could think he would get away with it. There's only one logical answer to that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If Howe killed the last Cousland and if Duncan wasn't there to testify against Howe (we clearly see Howe becoming worried when he saw Duncan), the idiot Cailan would not have found out what happened.

And yay, another thread trying to dictate how others ought to play the game. How original.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 août 2010 - 08:30 .

[Khavos]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If Howe killed the last Cousland and if Duncan wasn't there to testify against Howe (we clearly see Howe becoming worried when he saw Duncan), the idiot Cailan would not have found out what happened.

And yay, another thread trying to dictate how others ought to play the game. How original.

Sorry, I don't buy that.  There's a rather limited number of stories Howe could've come up with for how he suddenly acquired the Couslands' lands, and in none of them is, "I slaughtered everyone," a remotely sane action to have taken.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Khavos wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If Howe killed the last Cousland and if Duncan wasn't there to testify against Howe (we clearly see Howe becoming worried when he saw Duncan), the idiot Cailan would not have found out what happened.

And yay, another thread trying to dictate how others ought to play the game. How original.

Sorry, I don't buy that.  There's a rather limited number of stories Howe could've come up with for how he suddenly acquired the Couslands' lands, and in none of them is, "I slaughtered everyone," a remotely sane action to have taken.

- Bandits raided, I tried to save them but couldn't.
- The Couslands were traitors to Ferelden. Planned to declare independence or something to that effect.
- Revolt or mutiny in Highever. The Couslands died before being saved
....etc etc.

Tons of different ways Howe could have justified / hid what he did to the half wit Cailan, as Duncan himself suggested.

You can chosoe not to buy it of course, and I will not waste my time trying to convince you otherwise. In my mind, the issue is clear. And at the end, the game will depend on our different perspectives.

[Khavos]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
- Bandits raided, I tried to save them but couldn't.
- The Couslands were traitors to Ferelden. Planned to declare independence or something to that effect.
- Revolt or mutiny in Highever. The Couslands died before being saved
....etc etc.

Tons of different ways Howe could have justified / hid what he did to the half wit Cailan, as Duncan himself suggested.

You can chosoe not to buy it of course, and I will not waste my time trying to convince you otherwise. In my mind, the issue is clear. And at the end, the game will depend on our different perspectives.

Well, it's a little disingenuous to say, "There are perfectly good explanations," and then say that they all depend on perspective and that it doesn't matter if they don't make a great deal of sense to someone else, as long as they make sense to you.  Bandits don't attack fortified keeps, traitors don't send their eldest sons off in support of the monarch they're rebelling against, etc. 

To be honest, the fact that Howe did indeed slaughter the Couslands and assume their titles is indicative to me that Loghain probably shared the Ostagar plan with Howe - otherwise Fergus is the obvious heir.  Howe can't assume the title without Cailan and Fergus both out of the way.  If his plan didn't depend on knowing Loghain intended to remove Cailan from power somehow, then it must've included some method of neutralizing Fergus, which would negate all but the "the Couslands rebelled" explanations, which is itself negated by the fact that Fergus brought Cousland troops to fight for the king in the first place.

[Sarah1281]

Only Fergus needs to be out of the way. Cailan just needs to not know that Howe was responsible for the Cousland massacare which he doesn't learn unless you're the HN Howe never expected to escape. If Ostagar hadn't turned into a massacre or Fergus was found alive earllier he'd need to be secretly assassinated (and Howe has ties to the Crows and is unafraid to use them) and then everything's done. Howe doesn't get Highever because he specifically murdered the Couslands, he gets it because the Couslands are all dead and the Howes are the second-most powerful family in the area. If Howe came up with some BS story about how he received word after Fergus left that his men had more difficulties and went there to check it out and then decided to go to Ostagar on their own (but missed the battle) or it took longer than they thought to clear up the problems and get the troops moving again and wasn't the one to report that the Couslands were dead then no one would be looking to him for an explanation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Khavos wrote...
Well, it's a little disingenuous to say, "There are perfectly good explanations," and then say that they all depend on perspective and that it doesn't matter if they don't make a great deal of sense to someone else, as long as they make sense to you.  Bandits don't attack fortified keeps, traitors don't send their eldest sons off in support of the monarch they're rebelling against, etc. 

Because I am tired of the same old argument. Unless the lead writer posts something definitive, it's going in circle.

Bandits do attack keeps that have been emptied of its army.
Traitors can fake sending their army as an attempt to show face, while ordering them to retreat from the battle at the last moment. That happened many times throughout history, one example being Zaidi's revolt against the Umayyads.   
The people can rebel and revolt against a keep with no army. A major reason why Bryce left you in that castle to begin with, as he said so himself. EDIT: could be revolting banns in Highever even, which Howe managed to kill, only too late.
...etc etc

Cailan doesn't even have to believe. All Howe must do is provide some evidence, and by Ferelden law Cailan will not be able to act of his own accord and punish him without proper evidence regardless of what he believes (the evidence were Duncan and the Cousland).

Khavos wrote...
If his plan didn't depend on knowing Loghain intended to remove Cailan from power somehow, then it must've included some method of neutralizing Fergus

Assassins. Either during the battle or straight after. What's so difficult about that?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 août 2010 - 09:23 .

[Last Darkness]

Haha I like how Alistair and others in Awakening just up and leave the Wardens.....like that whole tainted bloood thing wasnt a death sentance. Duncan would be ashamed, look what he did to Jory during your joining when he wanted out.



Meh anyways its really about Politics and Personal prejudices. The game does a good job of making you hate someone without ever knowing them. My favorite is the Dwarf Noble Origen biasing you against Bhelen when Bhelen as King is the best choice and helps your people the most. I wish there was some similar or expanded options on dealing with Howe like that.



But still being a Grey Warden means ending the Blight and the Darkspawn Threat by any and all means nessary reguardless of circumstance or penaltys. They have to maintain a Politicaly neutral aspect while doing this.



Also for the Loghaine issue if youve read the novels you get alot of insight into his character. He really belives hes doing whats best for his people but like anyone else in the game he gets personaly prejudiced. I suggest grabbing Loghaine some game and taking him to the DLC(Particularly Ostagar) and in the final battle. His comments are worth listening to at least once.

On that same note I suggest taking Ohgren to the mage tower at least once, he has special fade dialog and also special dialog in awakening if he was in the fade in the mage tower.

[Sarah1281]

Haha I like how Alistair and others in Awakening just up and leave the Wardens.....like that whole tainted bloood thing wasnt a death sentance. Duncan would be ashamed, look what he did to Jory during your joining when he wanted out.

I doubt Duncan would really care. Riordan sure as hell doesn't. As long as you are a Warden if you live long enough you'll end up back in Orzammar for your Calling soon enough.

[Giggles_Manically]

Is it lame that I recruited him because Simon Templeman voiced him?

That guy is awsome.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Is it lame that I recruited him because Simon Templeman voiced him?
That guy is awsome.

It isn't lame.

As far as I am concerned, I would have spared a n@zi had he been voiced by say, James Earl Jones  (that's a joke btw).

[Giggles_Manically]

I liked him as Han Garel in ME2.

Even though Loghain might not be in part 2, I still want Simon T. to show up somewhere, real talent there.

[thegreateski]

It's an option for people who don't like to waste resources.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I liked him as Han Garel in ME2.
Even though Loghain might not be in part 2, I still want Simon T. to show up somewhere, real talent there.

I hope I  will not have to kill Gerrel in ME3.
Xen I am most probably killing, despite being voiced by Claudia Black

Anyways, gotta run. See you folks later!

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I liked him as Han Garel in ME2.
Even though Loghain might not be in part 2, I still want Simon T. to show up somewhere, real talent there.

Oh he did? Han Garel was the only non-annoying member of the Admiralty Board. Quib Quib was all 'let's befriend or AI overlords and we deserve to be punished forever for something that happened centuries ago' and then there's Daro'Xen. Ugh.  I got my hopes up when everyone else described her as being all mysterious and no one really knew what she thought and then I talked to her and she got all psychotic and sent me a snitty email about how I had doomed humanity to not sharing in the Quarian glory when she continued the experiments that let the Geth infiltrate the Migrant Fleet. What a letdown...

[Giggles_Manically]

I like Garel and Shala' Raan since they both had their heads on straight.

Also hearing Simon T say:

"Were under age, they cant charge us for disobeying an order."



He did an awsome job, even though Garel hates the Geth, he does see reason unlike that apologist, and that nutter Xen.

[Cat Fancy]

I've never not spared Loghain. My characters usually don't particularly care for the Grey Wardens and "what they stand for" because I (er, my characters? Usually not a huge difference in our opinions, oddly) cannot stand that they sentence people to early deaths without informing them of the risks. I usually play mages and city elves who get screwed over for doing the right things in their origins- I don't appreciate Duncan's "gracious" offer to conscript characters in those cases.* So when Riordan drops his REALLY RATHER SUBTLE hint that there are "compelling reasons" to have as many Grey Wardens as possibly soon, I have no problem putting Loghain through the joining. I make it abundantly clear that he's getting his ass sacrificed if at all possible once Riordan makes the big reveal. And it works for the best, of course! All the awesome people survive and Morrigan doesn't get her godchild. The only situation I could see where I WOULDN'T do this would be if I were a lady in a relationship with Alistair, or a human noble, or something. And even then, I probably still wouldn't appreciate what Duncan did and would be more than happy to sacrifice Loghain. (NOT COOL DUNCAN YOU AREN'T MY FATHER FIGURE)



*this makes Awakening really hard for me to play, because that's pretty much the first thing you have to do (well, I mean, you don't HAVE to. first world problem, I know.). I guess all that blood magic must have gone to my character's head and turned him into a complete tool.

[Sarah1281]

I usually play mages and city elves who get screwed over for doing the right things in their origins- I don't appreciate Duncan's "gracious" offer to conscript characters in those cases.*

Really? How else do you propose you would have gotten out of being sent to Aenoar forever or getting executed for the murder of a rapist? In those origins, he really comes through for you and conscripting you is your only way out. It's not like he sets up the whole situation just to nab you as a recruit, after all.

[Cat Fancy]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I usually play mages and city elves who get screwed over for doing the right things in their origins- I don't appreciate Duncan's "gracious" offer to conscript characters in those cases.*

Really? How else do you propose you would have gotten out of being sent to Aenoar forever or getting executed for the murder of a rapist? In those origins, he really comes through for you and conscripting you is your only way out. It's not like he sets up the whole situation just to nab you as a recruit, after all.

They (I? Ugh, I don't really "roleplay" nearly as much as I metagame but the origin I pick does have an influence on how I feel about things. I am the worst.) don't really care until after the Joining and what happens to Jory and Daveth. Duncan also makes it clear if you press the issue that you aren't a volunteer and you have no choice- so... not particularly grateful. And again, I don't like that they refuse to make the specifics of the ritual clear on the grounds that not everyone would want to do it. They shouldn't be making those kinds of decisions for people. I started a dwarf commoner for the first time yesterday and I was much more inclined to be grateful to Duncan, although I'm not sure why (crappy life that wasn't going anywhere? Worse family situation than City Elf? I dunno.).