Khavos wrote...
Most Fereldens would probably prefer to live under Orlesian rule than have their entire family and all of their countrymen cease to exist.
Monica21 wrote...
Much more useful when you've never kicked Wardens out of your country and aren't as unfamiliar with them as Fereldens who aren't named Maric are.
Loghain doesn't dispute the potential effect a Blight can have on a countryside. What he doesn't know is that it's a Blight. Key difference. Not relevant.
phaonica wrote...
I still don't get why it's okay for the humans to be enslaved to avoid death, but it's not okay for the elves.
"Most elves would probably prefer to live under Tevinter rule than have their family consumed by darkspawn."
?
If any of my posts have made anyone come to the conclusion that I believe Loghain acted without reproach, then I'd like to take the opportunity to state that I certainly don't believe that. Pride is certainly one of his faults. He doesn't like fighting forces he can't see, and he doesn't like taking a man's word that something is true when he can't see it.maxernst wrote...
Duncan told him it was a blight. Loghain was operating without all the information by choice. No one forced him to try and murder the PC & Alistair. No one forced him to prevent the Orlesian wardens from coming or even just asking them some questions at the border. Any wise person would have at least kept the idea that
Why does Loghain lie and say that the Wardens betrayed Cailan at Ostagar? He could have simply said they faced too large a force and he retreated to preserve the army. All he accomplished with the lie was to damage his own credibility. I still think the far more probable reason for going after the remaining Wardens is to eliminate Alistair. It makes a lot more sense for him to be willing to work with the Warden after the losing the duel, if he never actually believed you were working for Orlais in the first place.
Monica21 wrote...
My argument is nothing more or less than Loghain did what he believed to be best for Ferelden.
Khavos wrote...
phaonica wrote...
I still don't get why it's okay for the humans to be enslaved to avoid death, but it's not okay for the elves.
"Most elves would probably prefer to live under Tevinter rule than have their family consumed by darkspawn."
?
That wasn't the choice I offered.
phaonica wrote...
You said they they might think it was better to be enslaved than to be dead.
No, his forces are consumed with in-fighting. He can't fight Orlais or the darkspawn because he's busy fighting nobles. If you want to blame Loghain, then you also have to blame the nobles who can't put their own desires aside long enough to address the blight and then figure out the ruler business after. As Ser Bryant says, only a fool argues over who owns a house while it burns around them. Or something like that.Khavos wrote...
Except that is is, because even as the Blight is overrunning southern Ferelden - I forget the name of the noble you speak to in the tavern who lost all of his lands - he STILL continues to ignore it in favor of fending off a non-existent invasion.
Monica21 wrote...
No, his forces are consumed with in-fighting. He can't fight Orlais or the darkspawn because he's busy fighting nobles. If you want to blame Loghain, then you also have to blame the nobles who can't put their own desires aside long enough to address the blight and then figure out the ruler business after. As Ser Bryant says, only a fool argues over who owns a house while it burns around them. Or something like that.Khavos wrote...
Except that is is, because even as the Blight is overrunning southern Ferelden - I forget the name of the noble you speak to in the tavern who lost all of his lands - he STILL continues to ignore it in favor of fending off a non-existent invasion.
Actually, he dies every time in my game. But then again I always let Alistair duel him so the decision isn't mine. I figure it's hardly fair to deny Alistair the same justice I extracted from Howe for murdering my family.Khavos wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
My argument is nothing more or less than Loghain did what he believed to be best for Ferelden.
I don't disagree. Where I disagree is in the notion that someone simply believing they're doing the right thing is defense enough to let them walk. I could name plenty of brutal dictators throughout history who believed they were doing what was best for their country.
Khavos wrote...
phaonica wrote...
You said they they might think it was better to be enslaved than to be dead.
Could you quote the post where I said that?
I believe I said they might think it was better to have their country occupied by Orlais than be dead.
Monica21 wrote...
Actually, he dies every time in my game. But then again I always let Alistair duel him so the decision isn't mine. I figure it's hardly fair to deny Alistair the same justice I extracted from Howe for murdering my family.
I disagree that being a Warden is letting him walk. Whether he takes the killing blow or not, it's still a death sentence, and at his age, it would happen pretty quickly.
phaonica wrote...
So you don't consider what happened to the people during the Orlesian Occupation before to be akin to slavery?
Not that I recall. Bryce Cousland was more than wiling to send his forces wherever the king needed them. I think it started in Denerim when Teagan questioned how he got his forces out of Ostagar.Khavos wrote...
Did Cailan have that issue, out of curiosity? I didn't hear of any infighting amongst nobles when he was campaigning against the Blight - well, other than Loghain and Howe themselves, of course.
The game doesn't do a very good job of getting his true character, but it's also a snapshot in time. Even the codex entries don't do much for him. I didn't have much sympathy for him until after I read the books.Khavos wrote...
I could probably let him attempt the joining if his in-game behavior remotely resembled his backstory. I found after I'd already played the game that he was supposed to be a great general. He comes off as an atrocious, downright stupid leader in the game.
Khavos wrote...
phaonica wrote...
So you don't consider what happened to the people during the Orlesian Occupation before to be akin to slavery?
No. Why would I? I actually understand the definition of slavery.
Are you metagaming or do you never play anyone but a Cousland?Monica21 wrote...
Actually, he dies every time in my game. But then again I always let Alistair duel him so the decision isn't mine. I figure it's hardly fair to deny Alistair the same justice I extracted from Howe for murdering my family.Khavos wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
My argument is nothing more or less than Loghain did what he believed to be best for Ferelden.
I don't disagree. Where I disagree is in the notion that someone simply believing they're doing the right thing is defense enough to let them walk. I could name plenty of brutal dictators throughout history who believed they were doing what was best for their country.
I disagree that being a Warden is letting him walk. Whether he takes the killing blow or not, it's still a death sentence, and at his age, it would happen pretty quickly.
Are we sure he's lying? He knows that the Grey Wardens were supposed to light the beacon, Grey Wardens lit it far later than they were supposed to, the King died. For all we know, he was just jumping to conclusions again. He already half-suspected them of being Orlesian spies based on the events of The Calling.Khavos wrote...
maxernst wrote...
Why does Loghain lie and say that the Wardens betrayed Cailan at Ostagar?
That's actually a really good question. Do any of the Loghain apologists have an answer?
Probably a couple of reasons. First, it gives the rest of Ferelden a common enemy. Misdirection to make them follow him. Second, a reason to kill any Warden survivors. He needs to consolidate power and probably suspects that the two Wardens in the tower got away. Alistair might be part of it, but I'm not sure.Khavos wrote...
maxernst wrote...
Why does Loghain lie and say that the Wardens betrayed Cailan at Ostagar?
That's actually a really good question. Do any of the Loghain apologists have an answer?
phaonica wrote...
Ah well forgive the delay in my response while I look up that word real fast. Is the word oppression more preferable, or does that not carry a strong enough connotation?
I've never been able to make it through an entire playthrough with anyone but a Cousland. Not sure why, but the other races bore me. (Sorry.) But, I guess if you play as a city elf it's the same justice the Arl's son got. And it's not really meta-gaming. By the time of the duel Howe is already dead. You fought your fight, so let Alistair fight his. My character doesn't know the outcome, even if I do as a player.Sarah1281 wrote...
Are you metagaming or do you never play anyone but a Cousland?Monica21 wrote...
Actually, he dies every time in my game. But then again I always let Alistair duel him so the decision isn't mine. I figure it's hardly fair to deny Alistair the same justice I extracted from Howe for murdering my family.Khavos wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
My argument is nothing more or less than Loghain did what he believed to be best for Ferelden.
I don't disagree. Where I disagree is in the notion that someone simply believing they're doing the right thing is defense enough to let them walk. I could name plenty of brutal dictators throughout history who believed they were doing what was best for their country.
I disagree that being a Warden is letting him walk. Whether he takes the killing blow or not, it's still a death sentence, and at his age, it would happen pretty quickly.
Sarah1281 wrote...
Are we sure he's lying? He knows that the Grey Wardens were supposed to light the beacon, Grey Wardens lit it far later than they were supposed to, the King died. For all we know, he was just jumping to conclusions again. He already half-suspected them of being Orlesian spies based on the events of The Calling.
It is metagaming if you're playing as, say, a mage and thought Alistair deserved a shot at Loghain because you got to kill Howe which was why I was asking.Monica21 wrote...
I've never been able to make it through an entire playthrough with anyone but a Cousland. Not sure why, but the other races bore me. (Sorry.) But, I guess if you play as a city elf it's the same justice the Arl's son got. And it's not really meta-gaming. By the time of the duel Howe is already dead. You fought your fight, so let Alistair fight his. My character doesn't know the outcome, even if I do as a player.Sarah1281 wrote...
Are you metagaming or do you never play anyone but a Cousland?Monica21 wrote...
Actually, he dies every time in my game. But then again I always let Alistair duel him so the decision isn't mine. I figure it's hardly fair to deny Alistair the same justice I extracted from Howe for murdering my family.Khavos wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
My argument is nothing more or less than Loghain did what he believed to be best for Ferelden.
I don't disagree. Where I disagree is in the notion that someone simply believing they're doing the right thing is defense enough to let them walk. I could name plenty of brutal dictators throughout history who believed they were doing what was best for their country.
I disagree that being a Warden is letting him walk. Whether he takes the killing blow or not, it's still a death sentence, and at his age, it would happen pretty quickly.
Given all the other irrational things that Loghain believes and about Orlais and what that leads him to do, are we really sure we can discount the possibility that he does think that?Khavos wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
Are we sure he's lying? He knows that the Grey Wardens were supposed to light the beacon, Grey Wardens lit it far later than they were supposed to, the King died. For all we know, he was just jumping to conclusions again. He already half-suspected them of being Orlesian spies based on the events of The Calling.
So the Grey Wardens sacrifice all but two of their Ferelden members just to lose a battle in the hopes that the king will die during it?
Yeah, I think we're sure he's lying.
Khavos wrote...
phaonica wrote...
Ah well forgive the delay in my response while I look up that word real fast. Is the word oppression more preferable, or does that not carry a strong enough connotation?
Sure. I'm not saying it would be a pleasant occupation, though Celene is a new monarch, and it might not be as bad. Or it could be worse.
phaonica wrote...
While "slavery" may not be a cake walk, "oppression" can be horrific too. If you are saying that oppression is preferable to death because you have a chance to regain your freedom, how can the same not be said of slavery-- you have the chance to regain your freedom, at least you aren't dead?
Retour en haut