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[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Why does Loghain lie and say that the Wardens betrayed Cailan at Ostagar? 

That's actually a really good question.  Do any of the Loghain apologists have an answer?

I think that Loghain thought that as much as Cailan was seeking Glory, that the Wardens might have been just as eager to prove their relevance, considering that there hasn't been a Blight in centuries. Also, it's possible the Wardens could have been a significant help convincing Cailan to not fight on the frontline, but they didn't.

Modifié par phaonica, 13 août 2010 - 05:04 .

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

While "slavery" may not be a cake walk, "oppression" can be horrific too. If you are saying that oppression is preferable to death because you have a chance to regain your freedom, how can the same not be said of slavery-- you have the chance to regain your freedom, at least you aren't dead?

I'm not even sure what you're asking at this point.  If you're asking if I think the elves might have preferred slavery to death, I'd probably say, for the most part, sure.  Why is that relevant though?  It's a false choice.  They didn't need to be sold into slavery.  Did Ferelden need to let Orlais in to stop the Blight and risk occupation?  Obviously not.  But it would have been a smart move, if considered without metagame knowledge that your ONE TRUE DESTINED HERO would save the day with his band of superfriends.  

My point wasn't about the need so much as the slavery itself. I've heard the claim, not necessarily from you, but from when this argument has come up before that in the case of the elves it *would* be preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to be a Tevinter slave. I was generally asking anyone who might respond if the same sentiment extended to the humans, that it was preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to risk being oppressed by the Orlesians again.

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...

My point wasn't about the need so much as the slavery itself. I've heard the claim, not necessarily from you, but from when this argument has come up before that in the case of the elves it *would* be preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to be a Tevinter slave. I was generally asking anyone who might respond if the same sentiment extended to the humans, that it was preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to risk being oppressed by the Orlesians again.

Those are two completely unrelated questions.  As I've said several times in this thread, a Blight is an exponentially larger threat than anything the Orlesians could ever do.  

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

My point wasn't about the need so much as the slavery itself. I've heard the claim, not necessarily from you, but from when this argument has come up before that in the case of the elves it *would* be preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to be a Tevinter slave. I was generally asking anyone who might respond if the same sentiment extended to the humans, that it was preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to risk being oppressed by the Orlesians again.

Those are two completely unrelated questions.  As I've said several times in this thread, a Blight is an exponentially larger threat than anything the Orlesians could ever do.  

It's actually just one question...

At any rate, while I disagree that there is *nothing* the Orlesians could *ever* do that would be worse than what the darkspawn would do to people, I will grant that while there is indication that the Orlesians did do horrible things during the occupation, and their chevaliers apparently continue to do them, none of them quite compare to what the darkspawn have been known to do.

Still, for all that Orlais only *might* invade Ferelden after helping defeat the darkspawn, I think it was a little early in the incursion for Cailan to give up on Ferelden's ability to perhaps handle it themselves.

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...

It's actually just one question...

At any rate, while I disagree that there is *nothing* the Orlesians could *ever* do that would be worse than what the darkspawn would do to people, I will grant that while there is indication that the Orlesians did do horrible things during the occupation, and their chevaliers apparently continue to do them, none of them quite compare to what the darkspawn have been known to do.

Still, for all that Orlais only *might* invade Ferelden after helping defeat the darkspawn, I think it was a little early in the incursion for Cailan to give up on Ferelden's ability to perhaps handle it themselves.

So what could Orlais do that's worse than completely wiping Ferelden off the map by killing every human, elf, and dwarf within it, while tainting the lands so that they may never be used to agriculture - or anything else - again?  The Blight would completely destroy Ferelden if left unchecked.

As for Cailan, he's actually being smart in calling for assistance.  No previous Blight was stopped by an army as small as Ferelden's.  Ferelden's army likely wouldn't have stopped the Blight when it did if the Ferelden Grey Wardens hadn't essentially been wiped out at Ostagar - you'll note the archdemon didn't personally take part in battles until after there were only two left.  Wardens can sense darkspawn, but darkspawn can sense Wardens.  

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It's actually just one question...

At any rate, while I disagree that there is *nothing* the Orlesians could *ever* do that would be worse than what the darkspawn would do to people, I will grant that while there is indication that the Orlesians did do horrible things during the occupation, and their chevaliers apparently continue to do them, none of them quite compare to what the darkspawn have been known to do.

Still, for all that Orlais only *might* invade Ferelden after helping defeat the darkspawn, I think it was a little early in the incursion for Cailan to give up on Ferelden's ability to perhaps handle it themselves.

So what could Orlais do that's worse than completely wiping Ferelden off the map by killing every human, elf, and dwarf within it, while tainting the lands so that they may never be used to agriculture - or anything else - again?  The Blight would completely destroy Ferelden if left unchecked.

I think phaonica's point is that not everyone would agree that a life of oppression, however long, is preferable to death.

Years of brutality, poverty, rape and misery isn't a pleasant concept, especially to those (like Loghain) who have already experienced it firsthand. Yes, there are those who, in time, might be strong enough to be freedom fighters and overthrow their Orlesian overlords, but there's a level of suffering where people break and simply want to die, and there is a kind of human/elven/dwarven/etc mind that won't grant death because pain is just so much more fun.

Is a destroyed, Blighted and completely depopulated Ferelden an ultimately worse outcome? Absolutely. But after Orlais I can understand people being afraid of trusting them not to sieze control of a weakened Ferelden after defeating the darkspawn.

*Edit: I am curious as to whether people think (unawakened) darkspawn indulge in torture for purposes of pleasure. We know some people become ghouls and end up crafting stuff for them, we know some are eaten (although not for nutrition), we know the fate of women (presumably driven by instinct), but do darkspawn cause pain and keep people alive with the intent to keep doing so for pure entertainment value?

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 13 août 2010 - 08:37 .

[FiliusMartis]

I am curious as to whether people think (unawakened) darkspawn indulge in torture for purposes of pleasure. We know some people become ghouls and end up crafting stuff for them, we know some are eaten (although not for nutrition), we know the fate of women (presumably driven by instinct), but do darkspawn cause pain and keep people alive with the intent to keep doing so for pure entertainment value?

I would say that their treatment of Cailan's body in Return to Ostagar suggests that they likely derive fun from causing pain and humiliation. I know it's not an exact example of what you're talking about, but it's evidence of their morbid tastes, at least the intelligent ones.

[Khavos]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I think phaonica's point is that not everyone would agree that a life of oppression, however long, is preferable to death.

Years of brutality, poverty, rape and misery isn't a pleasant concept, especially to those (like Loghain) who have already experienced it firsthand.

Nor is it a universal concept.  Unless you truly believe that Loghain's story is what happened to all Fereldens during the occupation rather than a minority. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I am curious as to whether people think (unawakened) darkspawn indulge in torture for purposes of pleasure. We know some people become ghouls and end up crafting stuff for them, we know some are eaten (although not for nutrition), we know the fate of women (presumably driven by instinct), but do darkspawn cause pain and keep people alive with the intent to keep doing so for pure entertainment value?

I would say that their treatment of Cailan's body in Return to Ostagar suggests that they likely derive fun from causing pain and humiliation. I know it's not an exact example of what you're talking about, but it's evidence of their morbid tastes, at least the intelligent ones.

I'm unsure...it could just be a means of intimidation. They put heads on pikes in the Deep Roads too, IIRC.

(I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, mind. )

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Khavos wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I think phaonica's point is that not everyone would agree that a life of oppression, however long, is preferable to death.

Years of brutality, poverty, rape and misery isn't a pleasant concept, especially to those (like Loghain) who have already experienced it firsthand.

Nor is it a universal concept.  Unless you truly believe that Loghain's story is what happened to all Fereldens during the occupation rather than a minority. 

Oh, no, I'm sure it didn't happen to everyone, not is it universal.

The point is that even a minority has a voice. And if that voice prefers death to oppression, then by *definition* not everyone agrees that risking the Orlesians is better than fighting the Blight without them.

Just because the majority might disagree does not make them any more universal.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...


My point wasn't about the need so much as the slavery itself. I've heard the claim, not necessarily from you, but from when this argument has come up before that in the case of the elves it *would* be preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to be a Tevinter slave. I was generally asking anyone who might respond if the same sentiment extended to the humans, that it was preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to risk being oppressed by the Orlesians again.

You miss one huge difference:

Slave of Tevinters = you´ll be treated like dirt and sooner or later killed in a Blood magic ritual

Oppression by Orlais = You´ll be treated like dirt but survive.

Also, Orlaisians are idiots, is easy to rebel and drive them off again. Tevinter, not. You CAN´T fight bloodmages without the Litany of Andralla.

[Tirigon]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


The point is that even a minority has a voice. And if that voice prefers death to oppression, then by *definition* not everyone agrees that risking the Orlesians is better than fighting the Blight without them.

Thing is, do you truly believe anyone believes the Orlaisians are harder to fight than the Darkspawn? I don´t think.

Even if you consider the Orlaisians as your enemies, they are easier to fight than Darkspawn.

Lastly, if I was Loghain I´d invite them, make sure as many of them as possible die to the Darkspawn and then slaughter the survivors so I can invade Orlais and burn Val Royeaux to the ground. Revenge for the oppression and defeat of the Blight in one go.



On the other hand, even if Ferelden defeats the Blight alone they´ll be weakened and the Orlaisians can easily attack if they wish to do so. Having them on your side against the Blight actually PROTECTS you from an invasion as Ferelden will loose less soldiers, Orlais will loose more, making an Orlaisian invasion less probable.

Modifié par Tirigon, 13 août 2010 - 09:55 .

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

It's actually just one question...

At any rate, while I disagree that there is *nothing* the Orlesians could *ever* do that would be worse than what the darkspawn would do to people, I will grant that while there is indication that the Orlesians did do horrible things during the occupation, and their chevaliers apparently continue to do them, none of them quite compare to what the darkspawn have been known to do.

So what could Orlais do that's worse than completely wiping Ferelden off the map by killing every human, elf, and dwarf within it, while tainting the lands so that they may never be used to agriculture - or anything else - again? 

I was considering a potential extreme. "*Nothing* the Orlesians could *ever* do " is an extreme. I think that at its extreme human depravity absolutely does meet anything the darkspawn could do. And humans in this world have access to magic, so creating broodmother/abominations/whatevers are completely within the realm of what a human could do to another.

I also immediately said that I don't think the Orlesians would meet this extreme, only that it was possible for humans to meet it. I think that whatever the darkspawn could do to people, at the extreme, humans could do to each other, too.

As for Cailan, he's actually being smart in calling for assistance.  No previous Blight was stopped by an army as small as Ferelden's.   

That is true. And Duncan did say right from the beginning that there was definitely an Archdemon. Loghain didn't trust the Wardens, didn't believe it was a Blight, and wasn't willing to risk bringing in reinforcments that could themselves be invaders. I even think that if he *had* known it was a Blight, he probably wouldn't have let Orlais in. He would have attempted to fight an impossible battle.

Considering this--if the "right" thing to do was to recognize it as a Blight, and ask Orlais for help-- was Ferelden doomed to be at Orlais' mercy from the moment that the Blight broke out there?
 

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I think phaonica's point is that not everyone would agree that a life of oppression, however long, is preferable to death.

Yes, thank you.

*Edit: I am curious as to whether people think (unawakened) darkspawn indulge in torture for purposes of pleasure

It is implied at the beginning of Awakening that darkspawn are not known to take prisoners.

FiliusMartis  wrote...
I would say that their treatment of Cailan's body in Return to Ostagar suggests that they likely derive fun from causing pain and humiliation

Cailan was already dead, though, so while it might impy that they make trophies, I'm not sure that implies that they like to torture.

Unless you truly believe that Loghain's story is what happened to all Fereldens during the occupation rather than a minority. 

It might not have been rampant. But considering that it's apparently common knowledge the way that the Orlesian chevaliers treat their own people, I imagine it would be worse in Ferelden. Not to mention Loghain's own story. He also mentions Fereldens whom the Orlesians beat to death with riding crops. Loghain's camp at the beginning of the Stolen Throne is filled with people who have been driven from their homes and are on the run from the Orlesian authorities. At the peak of the resistance, there wasn't a single Ferelden settlement that didn't have rows of heads lining the roads as a demonstration of what defiance meant. Again, admittedly not as bad as what the darkspawn might do, but I don't think that Loghain's story was an uncommon one.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

phaonica wrote...


My point wasn't about the need so much as the slavery itself. I've heard the claim, not necessarily from you, but from when this argument has come up before that in the case of the elves it *would* be preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to be a Tevinter slave. I was generally asking anyone who might respond if the same sentiment extended to the humans, that it was preferable to risk death by darkspawn than to risk being oppressed by the Orlesians again.

You miss one huge difference:

Slave of Tevinters = you´ll be treated like dirt and sooner or later killed in a Blood magic ritual

Oppression by Orlais = You´ll be treated like dirt but survive.

Also, Orlaisians are idiots, is easy to rebel and drive them off again. Tevinter, not. You CAN´T fight bloodmages without the Litany of Andralla.

Tirigon !!  I haven't heard from you in a while!

I don't think all of the elves will die like that, any more than I think the Orlesians wouldn't kill anyone.

Is the Litany of Andralla not a unique item? Can you get those at Circle Towers Everywhere?

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

It might not have been rampant. But considering that it's apparently common knowledge the way that the Orlesian chevaliers treat their own people, I imagine it would be worse in Ferelden. Not to mention Loghain's own story. He also mentions Fereldens whom the Orlesians beat to death with riding crops. Loghain's camp at the beginning of the Stolen Throne is filled with people who have been driven from their homes and are on the run from the Orlesian authorities. At the peak of the resistance, there wasn't a single Ferelden settlement that didn't have rows of heads lining the roads as a demonstration of what defiance meant. Again, admittedly not as bad as what the darkspawn might do, but I don't think that Loghain's story was an uncommon one.

You forget the most important thing: The Orlaisians are not nicer than the Darkspawn, and they smell just as bad, but they die easier and procreate more slowly.

If you can either fight Darkspawn or Orlesians you should choose Orlaisians; they are much less dangerous.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

On the other hand, even if Ferelden defeats the Blight alone they´ll be weakened and the Orlaisians can easily attack if they wish to do so. Having them on your side against the Blight actually PROTECTS you from an invasion as Ferelden will loose less soldiers, Orlais will loose more, making an Orlaisian invasion less probable.

Yeah, that might work if Orlais is as stupid as you claimed in that other post. Celene is supposed to have more sense than that, but you know, I don't see any proof in game of that.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...


Is the Litany of Andralla not a unique item? Can you get those at Circle Towers Everywhere?

I´m not sure if it´s truly unique, but definitely rare. And that´s the problem. You can´t rebel against guys who can force you to fight your fellows against your own will.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

Yeah, that might work if Orlais is as stupid as you claimed in that other post. Celene is supposed to have more sense than that, but you know, I don't see any proof in game of that.

No matter how intelligent she is, the Orlaisians can´t fight a Blight without losses.

Unless, of course, they refuse to help Ferelden, in which case this discusiion and the Fereldan´s choice doesn´t matter anyways.

[FiliusMartis]

Cailan was already dead, though, so while it might impy that they make trophies, I'm not sure that implies that they like to torture.

Distributing his armor is taking trophies; the obscene display of his body is done for their amusement. They had taken Ostagar so there was little reason to believe that anyone would be returning. It's not torture, of course, but it is evidence that the darkspawn enjoy such morbidity.

Is the Litany of Andralla not a unique item? Can you get those at Circle Towers Everywhere?

That totally made the Circle Tower sound like a Walmart.

[Tirigon]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Cailan was already dead, though, so while it might impy that they make trophies, I'm not sure that implies that they like to torture.

Distributing his armor is taking trophies; the obscene display of his body is done for their amusement. They had taken Ostagar so there was little reason to believe that anyone would be returning. It's not torture, of course, but it is evidence that the darkspawn enjoy such morbidity.

Well it´s not something humans don´t do, though.

[FiliusMartis]

Well it´s not something humans don´t do, though.

Yes, and humans also engage in acts of torture, sometimes for means of amusement or entertainment at the enemy's humiliation and suffering. I'm sure that not all darkspawn do it, probably the generals and emissaries only have the ability, just like not all humans do it... they still have the capacity. That's all I'm saying.

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...
I was considering a potential extreme. "*Nothing* the Orlesians could *ever* do " is an extreme. I think that at its extreme human depravity absolutely does meet anything the darkspawn could do. And humans in this world have access to magic, so creating broodmother/abominations/whatevers are completely within the realm of what a human could do to another.

I also immediately said that I don't think the Orlesians would meet this extreme, only that it was possible for humans to meet it. I think that whatever the darkspawn could do to people, at the extreme, humans could do to each other, too.

I disagree.  I actually don't think humans could create broodmothers, and therefore darkspawn.  I also don't think humans could come up with a way to completely kill the fertility of the land they pass over, nor taint every single animal so that it becomes a twisted and mutated Blight creature.  I also don't think Orlais could be nearly as efficient at full-on genocide as the darkspawn; Orlais has limited numbers, the darkspawn really don't.

That is true. And Duncan did say right from the beginning that there was definitely an Archdemon. Loghain didn't trust the Wardens, didn't believe it was a Blight, and wasn't willing to risk bringing in reinforcments that could themselves be invaders. I even think that if he *had* known it was a Blight, he probably wouldn't have let Orlais in. He would have attempted to fight an impossible battle.

Considering this--if the "right" thing to do was to recognize it as a Blight, and ask Orlais for help-- was Ferelden doomed to be at Orlais' mercy from the moment that the Blight broke out there?

You're assuming that asking Orlais - and probably not just Orlais, for all we know the Nevarrans and the Anders were on their way and just didn't make it before the party ended - for assistance automatically equals being at Orlais' mercy.  I don't believe that's true.
 

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I think phaonica's point is that not everyone would agree that a life of oppression, however long, is preferable to death.

Yes, thank you.

And I have no problem understanding that.  What I do have a problem with is a rather delusional leader making that decision for every single last one of his people, especially when it's a false decision in the first place: Loghain's decision was between certain death and potential oppression.  He chose a path that would have led to certain death. 

It might not have been rampant. But considering that it's apparently common knowledge the way that the Orlesian chevaliers treat their own people, I imagine it would be worse in Ferelden.

There simply aren't enough chevaliers for them to get around to every single Ferelden in a reasonable span of time. 

Not to mention Loghain's own story. He also mentions Fereldens whom the Orlesians beat to death with riding crops. Loghain's camp at the beginning of the Stolen Throne is filled with people who have been driven from their homes and are on the run from the Orlesian authorities. At the peak of the resistance, there wasn't a single Ferelden settlement that didn't have rows of heads lining the roads as a demonstration of what defiance meant. Again, admittedly not as bad as what the darkspawn might do, but I don't think that Loghain's story was an uncommon one.

I haven't read Stolen Throne.  Why were they driven from their homes?  As for the heads-on-pikes, you yourself admit that this was at the peak of Ferelden resistance - implying that the Fereldens weren't exactly keeping their heads down.

I'm not saying they should have kept their heads down, but I am saying that we have plenty of historical examples of oppressive occupations in our own world history.  Orlais' goal does not seem to be to wipe Ferelden off the map, but to add it to its empire; I'm sure their rule was harsh, but generally speaking, smart occupiers don't antagonize the entire populace for absolutely no purpose.  Even in Germany's occupations during World War II, they were primarily targeting certain segments of the populace for their truly horrific oppression.  If you played by the rules, you generally weren't harassed.  If you ****** everyone off, you get revolted on.  If you get revolted on, you have to spend time and money putting it down, and run the real risk of being kicked out.  

[MKDAWUSS]

Well, Loghain was right - the Blight was stopped without any outside help. All the help they had came from domestic forces.

[maxernst]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Well, Loghain was right - the Blight was stopped without any outside help. All the help they had came from domestic forces.

Not true.  The dwarves and Dalish elves are not domestic forces.  Nor was Riordan.  Not to mention the fact that he did everything he could to kill the PC and his party.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Riordan was from Highever and a member of Duncan's Fereldon wardens. Though he was in Orlais during Ostagar.



Though the Dalish and Dwarfs aren't "Human Society Fereldons" they are living in the same area, and would probably prefer to help each other than letting an outside force like Orlais help. Also I would say the dwarfs and humans are very close due to the trade especially the lyrium trade.