1092 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Tirigon wrote...
Also, Orlaisians are idiots, is easy to rebel and drive them off again. Tevinter, not. You CAN´T fight bloodmages without the Litany of Andralla.

Except that Orlais held Ferelden for almost a century, so I doubt anyone would be looking forward to the "easy" task of rebelling once again.

[Khavos]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Well, Loghain was right - the Blight was stopped without any outside help. All the help they had came from domestic forces.

Largely, I believe, because the archdemon was aware of how few Grey Wardens were left in Ferelden after Ostagar and overcommitted.  The Blight ended before it even got started.  

Something tells me that allowing all of your Wardens to be slaughtered save for two new recruits won't become the standard Blight-fighting tactic, though. 

[Khavos]

Monica21 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Also, Orlaisians are idiots, is easy to rebel and drive them off again. Tevinter, not. You CAN´T fight bloodmages without the Litany of Andralla.

Except that Orlais held Ferelden for almost a century, so I doubt anyone would be looking forward to the "easy" task of rebelling once again.

It's an easier task than coming back from the dead. 

[Khavos]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Riordan was from Highever and a member of Duncan's Fereldon wardens. Though he was in Orlais during Ostagar.

Are you sure?  He speaks with an awfully heavy French accent to have just been in Orlais for a bit.  I got the impression that while he was born in Highever, he'd been stationed in Orlais for quite some time.  

[maxernst]

Khavos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Also, Orlaisians are idiots, is easy to rebel and drive them off again. Tevinter, not. You CAN´T fight bloodmages without the Litany of Andralla.

Except that Orlais held Ferelden for almost a century, so I doubt anyone would be looking forward to the "easy" task of rebelling once again.

It's an easier task than coming back from the dead. 

I'm sure everybody in Hungary these days is very sad that the Soviets didn't nuke them out of existence in 1955 and spare them thirty-five years of oppression.

[Monica21]

Khavos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Also, Orlaisians are idiots, is easy to rebel and drive them off again. Tevinter, not. You CAN´T fight bloodmages without the Litany of Andralla.

Except that Orlais held Ferelden for almost a century, so I doubt anyone would be looking forward to the "easy" task of rebelling once again.

It's an easier task than coming back from the dead. 

Not the point. The point is, why invite Chevaliers in when you're not even fighting with the full force of your own army yet? Eamon's troops weren't at Ostagar (and yes, I know why) and they didn't have the treaties yet. Previous Blights had armies and Wardens fighting the Archdemon multiple times before it was killed, and it hadn't shown itself at all. I'm sure Loghain knows his history well enough to wonder where the Archdemon is if this is a Blight.

[Monica21]

maxernst wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Also, Orlaisians are idiots, is easy to rebel and drive them off again. Tevinter, not. You CAN´T fight bloodmages without the Litany of Andralla.

Except that Orlais held Ferelden for almost a century, so I doubt anyone would be looking forward to the "easy" task of rebelling once again.

It's an easier task than coming back from the dead. 

I'm sure everybody in Hungary these days is very sad that the Soviets didn't nuke them out of existence in 1955 and spare them thirty-five years of oppression.

Have you thought about ending your statements with sarcasm tags? Just to be sure everyone understands the very minor relevance of your points.

You do realize the difference between 35 years of oppression and almost a century, right? People were born and died, sometimes quickly and violently, under Orlesian rule. Loghain knows how easily the Ferelden nobles can be manipulated, since they were the cause of their own Queen's murder. I'll try to make the point again, that Loghain may be paranoid, but it's not without context or reason.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

Considering that Gaider also referenced that Duncan himself would have left Ferelden after the betrayal at Ostagar, I'd say that Alistair was admirable in wanting to stay and save Ferelden. As for what's cannon concerning what he did post-Landsmeet if Loghain is spared and he isn't hardened, I'm pretty sure that I can also reference that Leliana's Song contradicts what Leliana tells you in DA:O since it takes place in Denerim (and not Orlais) simply because they felt like changing it. So the idea that Alistair did nothing is only true until they decide to change it like they did with Leliana's backstory.

 
And I also feel that Duncan leaving Ferelden to fall would be morally wrong. Duncan would likely agree with that but say that it was necessary to stop the Blight (which it wasn't but he can't be blamed for not being psychic). Necessary =/= morally right. And Alistair leaving isn't in any way necessary. Also, Leliana makes it clear that the events of her song aren't actually unfolding in the present but she's telling the tale. Whether her Origins version of events, her song version, or neither is what really happened I don't know. It might be to save time/resources in crafting part of Orlais that they set it in Denerim but a bard who, by her very nature, exaggerates things to make them more exciting giving two conflicting version of events is hardly retconning.

I bet that if she's at the final battle with you and you ended up throwing your forces like cannon fodder at the Archdmon while you just killed it by inches with a ballista and someone asks her for the tale, she's not exactly going to be admitting that, either. 

Whether she's making the events that happened seem more exciting than they were, why set them in an entirely different nation? That's like Leliana telling the story of fighting the Archdemon and changing the setting to Orlais instead of Ferelden. The writers changed the entire context and setting of an established backstory because they wanted to make a DLC. Saying that Alistair did nothing may likely be the case until they decide to do a DLC that goes against it, but so far what we've seen in the game is that he wants the man who murdered his family to face execution and cannot abide by letting that man live. Maybe if he was a robot he wouldn't have any problem with the Warden sparing Loghain, but he's human. Throughout the game he basically opens up about having lost the only real family he ever had, it doesn't surprise me that he would be so adamant about it. As for morally right and wrong that's certainly an issue of perspective. In Alistair's eyes, it's morally wrong that Loghain is allowed to live despite his crimes, despite enslaving people, poisoning the Arl, making a deal that nearly lead the Circle to its destruction, and abandoning the King and the Wardens to die. He leaves the side of a Warden he can no longer trust, and I don't think he would be capable of effectively fighting alongside the man who has the blood of the Wardens on his hands.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

The Warden is the leader of the armies. Alistair isn't. Why you feel like it's immoral of Alistair not to work with a man who cost him his family and who he likely wouldn't be able to function well in combat alongside is something I don't understand. I'm basically arguing that Alistair shouldn't be villified for his refusal to not work with a man who cost him his family, which I think is very human of him. 

You didn't answer my question. If the Warden leaves at the Landsmeet before anyone can appoint them the leader of the army then they are NOT the leader. If they leave, are they justified because they don't have an official position?

And I strongly disagree that Alistair's hatred of Loghain is enough to justify him not feeling he's able to serve in the same COUNTRY as him. I'm not saying he should stay in the party. He can leave the party. He can go serve with Eamon's men. He wouldnt' even have to look at Loghain or acknowledge he's still alive. Once the Blight is over, then he can leave the country forever and no one would think less of him for it. And, again, just because Alistair has a human reaction does not mean that this reaction is good. I refuse to believe that 'oh, it's a very human reaction' is enough to justify someone's actions. It might be a very human action to torture Howe to death, for instance, as a HN. Does that mean that someone who does did something morally good? Hardly. It might be understandable to some but it can still be judged. 

The Warden is already the leader of the armies of the Dalish, Mages, and Redcliffe forces. Ridorian even refers to you as Commander of the armies if you mention about going with him to Ostagar when you speak with him at Eamon's.

Since Alistair is a human and not a robot, and makes a split second decision to leave since you basically pardon the man who has the blood of his family (the Wardens) on his hands, including his brother the King and Duncan, are you surprised? He isn't tranquil.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

People have made arguments for and against Alistair. This thread started with someone finding it incredulous that Loghain would be spared despite all he'd done. And people on both sides have either dismissed Loghain, Anora, or Alistair throughout this discussion. 

People can feel free to say that they don't take what so-and-so thinks and feels into account. If anyone said 'I don't care about what Alistair thinks but I'm going to listen very closely to Anora's desires' then that's equally hypocritical.

They might be talking from the perspective of seeing that Anora views the Warden as expendible. If you reveal that Anora was captured by Howe, she betrays you, refusing to reason with someone who may very likely defect from Loghain's side if she were to reveal the truth, and despite realizing that her father has gone off the deep end, she will betray you and doom Ferelden unless you support her as Queen. I'd guess it's more an issue of "Anora doesn't care about the Warden, why should the Warden care about her?"

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So, Sarah, if Hermann Melville gave an interview in which he said he meant Moby Dick to be a shark instead of a whale, but his editor changed it, would you now call it a Shark Story?

I am not going to get into an argument about whether Word of God should be considered. I believe that it should and you do not. There is nothing wrong with either philosophy. Both philosphies exist and if I want to take what he says to be true then that's perfectly fine.

You have a false analogy anyway. Loghain's motives are not spelled out in the game. The 'Moby Dick is a shark' comparison would probably with the statement 'Loghain has put the past behind him and is eager to welcome to the Orlesians into the country but due to Cailan's feud with the Empress Celene they refuse to come to Ferelden's aid.' Nothing that's been said about Loghain's motivations, opinion or not, has been flat-out contradicted in the game.

TJPags wrote...

It's clear what Gaider meant.  It's also clear what was actually put in the game.  And in this case, what he meant was NOT put in the game.  So it simply can NOT be canon for THIS GAME.

Since it's not outright contradicted, sure it can be. You don't have to see it as that but what is and is not canon is very rarely easily agreed upon by everyone.

Isn't the problem here that regardless of Loghain intended, Eamon would have died without the intervention of the desire demon and the use of the ashes of Andraste? Then he followed that up with failing at the Landsmeet, leading to a civil war that depleted forces and resources, and selling people into slavery.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 août 2010 - 02:43 .

[maxernst]

Monica21 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Also, Orlaisians are idiots, is easy to rebel and drive them off again. Tevinter, not. You CAN´T fight bloodmages without the Litany of Andralla.

Except that Orlais held Ferelden for almost a century, so I doubt anyone would be looking forward to the "easy" task of rebelling once again.

It's an easier task than coming back from the dead. 

I'm sure everybody in Hungary these days is very sad that the Soviets didn't nuke them out of existence in 1955 and spare them thirty-five years of oppression.

Have you thought about ending your statements with sarcasm tags? Just to be sure everyone understands the very minor relevance of your points.

You do realize the difference between 35 years of oppression and almost a century, right? People were born and died, sometimes quickly and violently, under Orlesian rule. Loghain knows how easily the Ferelden nobles can be manipulated, since they were the cause of their own Queen's murder. I'll try to make the point again, that Loghain may be paranoid, but it's not without context or reason.

You do know that in 1955, nobody knew how long the Soviet era would last, right?  The bottom line is, Loghain decided unilaterally that he and he alone had the right to decide Ferelden's future.  He used force to enforce his will. 

You can go on all you want about how oppression could be worse than death but the reality is that if you look at history, the vast majority of people don't choose to die, even under extraordinarily repressive regimes. 

[Monica21]

maxernst wrote...
You do know that in 1955, nobody knew how long the Soviet era would last, right?  The bottom line is, Loghain decided unilaterally that he and he alone had the right to decide Ferelden's future.  He used force to enforce his will.

What I do know is that Soviets weren't murdering Hungarians just for looking at them wrong and putting their heads on pikes in 1955.

You can go on all you want about how oppression could be worse than death but the reality is that if you look at history, the vast majority of people don't choose to die, even under extraordinarily repressive regimes. 

Never said that. What I did say was that removing the Orlesians could hardly be considered an easy task.

[Khavos]

Monica21 wrote...
Not the point. The point is, why invite Chevaliers in when you're not even fighting with the full force of your own army yet? Eamon's troops weren't at Ostagar (and yes, I know why) and they didn't have the treaties yet. Previous Blights had armies and Wardens fighting the Archdemon multiple times before it was killed, and it hadn't shown itself at all. I'm sure Loghain knows his history well enough to wonder where the Archdemon is if this is a Blight.

You invite chevaliers because the previous four Blights all required significantly larger armies than you're capable of mustering.  You also invite Anders and Nevarrans and Tevinters and Free Marchers and dudes from Rivain.  You invite anyone and everyone because you know that these are very long, very bloody affairs - unless you manage to get almost all of your Grey Wardens killed to allow the archdemon to feel secure enough to personally take charge of battles for a bit. 

[Khavos]

Monica21 wrote...

What I do know is that Soviets weren't murdering Hungarians just for looking at them wrong and putting their heads on pikes in 1955.

I'm really going to start needing quotes from the books displaying Orlesians roaming around Ferelden during the occupation slaughtering everyone because they feel like it. 

[ArawnNox]

Khavos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

What I do know is that Soviets weren't murdering Hungarians just for looking at them wrong and putting their heads on pikes in 1955.

I'm really going to start needing quotes from the books displaying Orlesians roaming around Ferelden during the occupation slaughtering everyone because they feel like it. 

Stolen Throne goes into plenty detail about how bloody the Orlesian occupation is. Loghain's experience not withstanding, anyone even remotly suspected of having anything to do with Maric's rebellion is executed and has their head stuck on a pike. It gets REALLY bad towards the end when Meghrin is going off the deep-end about it.
Its also been established elsewhere that the Chevaliers are allowed to take any woman they so choose that isn't of noble blood in Orlais. Toss that mentality into another country and you have widespread rape (not to mention that that tends to happen when any invading force enters any country, anyway. You have real world history to back that one up.)

[Monica21]

Khavos wrote...
I'm really going to start needing quotes from the books displaying Orlesians roaming around Ferelden during the occupation slaughtering everyone because they feel like it. 

Without going back through the book, I can only give you a couple of things I remember specifically. Loghain's father was a freeholder and the Orlesians didn't like freeholders, so they established a tax. His father was barely able to pay the first year, but the second year it was raised and he didn't have the money. He was forcibly removed from his land in addition to watching his wife raped and killed by Chevaliers. At the beginning of the book, Loghain and his father are with a group of people who are basically nomads at this point, moving when Orlesian forces get too close so they aren't killed.

I remember some business about a sword presented by a noble on the king's birthday. Something about the sword being an heirloom and the ing took offense that it wasn't made for him, so it was gifted to the Chantry. At that point, the king asks the noble where his gift is. Everyone is a bit tense and Chevaliers have their hands on their swords, presumably waiting for Meghren to call for the execution. The fact that there was tension means that it was not unlike Meghren to order someone killed over something as small as a birthday present. I can't remember if the noble was killed or not, but it's pretty well established that the Orlesian occupation isn't rainbows and unicorns. It's harsh, and people are doing what they can to survive.

[FiliusMartis]

While the Blight was ended with 'domestic forces,' it's important to remember that the majority of these forces only helped because of the Grey Warden treaties. Without these the dwarves and elves would likely have done nothing, and they account for half the recruited army. Many of Arl Eamon's knights would have died in the continued search for the urn while Eamon wasted away, and the mages would have been eliminated.



It's also worth noting that slavery, rape, and death are what the elves are being subjected to. It's not as severe or on as grand a scale as Orlais once did, but it is occurring.



It's also not sound strategy to allow your own armies to be all but obliterated while your 'enemy' is hanging around near the borders with a full armed force.

[Sarah1281]

Saying that Alistair did nothing may likely be the case until they decide to do a DLC that goes against it, but so far what we've seen in the game is that he wants the man who murdered his family to face execution and cannot abide by letting that man live. Maybe if he was a robot he wouldn't have any problem with the Warden sparing Loghain, but he's human. Throughout the game he basically opens up about having lost the only real family he ever had, it doesn't surprise me that he would be so adamant about it. As for morally right and wrong that's certainly an issue of perspective. In Alistair's eyes, it's morally wrong that Loghain is allowed to live despite his crimes, despite enslaving people, poisoning the Arl, making a deal that nearly lead the Circle to its destruction, and abandoning the King and the Wardens to die. He leaves the side of a Warden he can no longer trust, and I don't think he would be capable of effectively fighting alongside the man who has the blood of the Wardens on his hands.

It doesn't matter if it's morally wrong or not. Walking away and leaving Ferelden to its own fate would be WORSE than sparing any one man who didn't later go on to do unspeakable things once spared (and Loghain had very little credibility at that point and was watched enough that even before being shipped to Orlais it wasn't going to happen). I GET that he has deep feelings and he feels oh-so-very betrayed. It does not give him a pass on abandoing the entire country. He could have stayed and fought with someone else and had nothing to do with the Warden, Loghain, or anyone else he had a moral issue with. He didn't. And just because you feel that one day there might be a DLC detailing his heroic resistance against the Blight elsewhere doesn't mean we can take it as canon NOW.

The Warden is already the leader of the armies of the Dalish, Mages, and Redcliffe forces. Ridorian even refers to you as Commander of the armies if you mention about going with him to Ostagar when you speak with him at Eamon's.



Since Alistair is a human and not a robot, and makes a split second decision to leave since you basically pardon the man who has the blood of his family (the Wardens) on his hands, including his brother the King and Duncan, are you surprised? He isn't tranquil.

And why are you, personally, the commander of the Dalish, dwarves, and mages? Game mechanics. A split-second poor decision is one thing. There were weeks between the Landsmeet and the siege of Denerim. He had time to come back.

They might be talking from the perspective of seeing that Anora views the Warden as expendible. If you reveal that Anora was captured by Howe, she betrays you, refusing to reason with someone who may very likely defect from Loghain's side if she were to reveal the truth, and despite realizing that her father has gone off the deep end, she will betray you and doom Ferelden unless you support her as Queen. I'd guess it's more an issue of "Anora doesn't care about the Warden, why should the Warden care about her?"

Other peoples' Warden doesn't have to. They still shouldn't say that no one's is supposed to. It doesn't matter how horrible or sympathetic Anora herself or her cause might be, other people can't completely write her off for everyone.

Isn't the problem here that regardless of Loghain intended, Eamon would have died without the intervention of the desire demon and the use of the ashes of Andraste? Then he followed that up with failing at the Landsmeet, leading to a civil war that depleted forces and resources, and selling people into slavery.

I am of the opinion that if Eamon weren't supposed to die then it makes his poison less horrible. It doesn't make it okay, it doesn't make him deserving of it, it just makes it LESS bad. And we have no idea what the desire demon did other than presumably trapping Eamon in the Fade based on its dialogue. Connor and Isolde thought he was going to die which may or may not have been the truth and reacted accordingly.

Also I would say the dwarfs and humans are very close due to the trade especially the lyrium trade.

And I would disagree. As long as the Orlesians weren't invading Orzammar, Orzammar won't care. Lyrium would be just as needed no matter who has sovereignty and a common if not prevalent opinion during the BLIGHT was that it was now a Surface problem that didn't concern them. The dwarves and Surface aren't close to each other. Orzammar wants nothing to do with the Surface.

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...
It doesn't matter if it's morally wrong or not. Walking away and leaving Ferelden to its own fate would be WORSE than sparing any one man who didn't later go on to do unspeakable things once spared (and Loghain had very little credibility at that point and was watched enough that even before being shipped to Orlais it wasn't going to happen). I GET that he has deep feelings and he feels oh-so-very betrayed. It does not give him a pass on abandoing the entire country. He could have stayed and fought with someone else and had nothing to do with the Warden, Loghain, or anyone else he had a moral issue with. He didn't. And just because you feel that one day there might be a DLC detailing his heroic resistance against the Blight elsewhere doesn't mean we can take it as canon NOW.

As much as I love Alistair, this is one aspect of the game that I can't abide. It simply doesn't make sense. It's the biggest WTF moment in the game. I get that he walks away from the PC and simply hates the sight of you, but he's still a Grey Warden. Riordan doesn't pull rank and make him stay, and should because Grey Wardens fight the blight no matter where they're from, right? You aren't even given the opportunity to talk about it with Alistair. Not to mention that despite everyone turning to you, at the very least a hardened Alistair should step up and say the decision is his because he is the true senior Warden in Ferelden.

That whole scenario pisses me off, not just because it doesn't make sense in context of everything else you've done, but it's out of character for Alistair. I get that he prefers to follow, but he's never been a coward. Turning tail and leaving is the most cowardly act of the entire game. It's only purpose is to force an either/or scenario on the player, and disregards what the real options of the character would be.

[Giggles_Manically]

Whilst Alistair leaving causes me no amout of irk, I dont see it as out of charachter for him.

The entire nation including Eamon and others who he respected all side with the warden if you spare Loghain, meaning he has no group left to side with now.



If I was in his boots then hells yah I would be pissed, but I would not abandon my nation to death for it. While I find it a poncy move Alistair in that scene just got the rug pulled out from under him, his world is spinning and his sense of what is right and wrong is destroyed. So he is not being OOC, just acting like a person who has been hit with an emotional wallop.



Also Riordian and Alistair cant overrule the warden since its a game, and Gaider an CO. have repeadtly said the player choice is the defining force in the game, and something they dont OFTEN override since its a game.

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I was considering a potential extreme. "*Nothing* the Orlesians could *ever* do " is an extreme. I think that at its extreme human depravity absolutely does meet anything the darkspawn could do. And humans in this world have access to magic, so creating broodmother/abominations/whatevers are completely within the realm of what a human could do to another.

I also immediately said that I don't think the Orlesians would meet this extreme, only that it was possible for humans to meet it. I think that whatever the darkspawn could do to people, at the extreme, humans could do to each other, too.

I disagree.  I actually don't think humans could create broodmothers, and therefore darkspawn.  I also don't think humans could come up with a way to completely kill the fertility of the land they pass over, nor taint every single animal so that it becomes a twisted and mutated Blight creature.  I also don't think Orlais could be nearly as efficient at full-on genocide as the darkspawn; Orlais has limited numbers, the darkspawn really don't.

I don't think that humans would make broodmothers specifically, but when humans have acess to magic, I think there is the potential for them to make something equally as awful. I dont think that humans could blight the land with darkspawn taint, but I think that, especially with access to magic, they could make the land unlivable forever. They might not be as efficient, but they could do it.

That is true. And Duncan did say right from the beginning that there was definitely an Archdemon. Loghain didn't trust the Wardens, didn't believe it was a Blight, and wasn't willing to risk bringing in reinforcments that could themselves be invaders. I even think that if he *had* known it was a Blight, he probably wouldn't have let Orlais in. He would have attempted to fight an impossible battle.

Considering this--if the "right" thing to do was to recognize it as a Blight, and ask Orlais for help-- was Ferelden doomed to be at Orlais' mercy from the moment that the Blight broke out there?

You're assuming that asking Orlais - and probably not just Orlais, for all we know the Nevarrans and the Anders were on their way and just didn't make it before the party ended - for assistance automatically equals being at Orlais' mercy.  I don't believe that's true.

Yes, I am assuming that if Ferelden asked Orlais for assistance fighting the Blight, that if Orlais had plans to invade after helping, that it does mean to be at their mercy, meaning Ferelden can only *hope* that Orlais doesn't want to invade. I think that an Orlesian plan to use the Blight to help them take over Ferelden would be practically a sure thing.
 

And I have no problem understanding that.  What I do have a problem with is a rather delusional leader making that decision for every single last one of his people, especially when it's a false decision in the first place: Loghain's decision was between certain death and potential oppression.  He chose a path that would have led to certain death. 

Are you saying that not asking the Orlesians for help equates to certain death? I don't believe that. I think his choice was between potential death and potential oppression.  He wanted to look for some way for Ferelden to win without Orlesian help. The Warden does the exact same thing. Yes, the Warden had the treaties, but does that not mean that the Warden did attempt to pursue a plan that did not require the Orlesians? 

There simply aren't enough chevaliers for them to get around to every single Ferelden in a reasonable span of time. 

I don't understand. Does every single person in Ferelden have to be assaulted by a chevalier before it can be considered a problem?

I haven't read Stolen Throne.  Why were they driven from their homes?  As for the heads-on-pikes, you yourself admit that this was at the peak of Ferelden resistance - implying that the Fereldens weren't exactly keeping their heads down.

I'm just saying that considering what the Orlesians were capable of, height of the resistance or not, I dont think Loghain's story was necessarily in the minority.

I'm not saying they should have kept their heads down, but I am saying that we have plenty of historical examples of oppressive occupations in our own world history.  Orlais' goal does not seem to be to wipe Ferelden off the map, but to add it to its empire; I'm sure their rule was harsh, but generally speaking, smart occupiers don't antagonize the entire populace for absolutely no purpose. 

Maybe not, but the book didn't do much in the way of explaining why the Orlesians might be occuping except to antagonize the people there. 

Modifié par phaonica, 13 août 2010 - 08:31 .

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

As much as I love Alistair, this is one aspect of the game that I can't abide. It simply doesn't make sense. It's the biggest WTF moment in the game. I get that he walks away from the PC and simply hates the sight of you, but he's still a Grey Warden. Riordan doesn't pull rank and make him stay, and should because Grey Wardens fight the blight no matter where they're from, right? You aren't even given the opportunity to talk about it with Alistair.

Yeah, it does really suck that you can't talk him out of quitting the Wardens. I hate that he lets one Warden completely ruin his ideas about what being a Warden means.

Not to mention that despite everyone turning to you, at the very least a hardened Alistair should step up and say the decision is his because he is the true senior Warden in Ferelden.

This would have caused such a sh*tstorm with my Warden. If I can beat Loghain in a duel, I can beat Alistair...
And if I were not able to, power to him, good luck with all that...
Edit: Though, I suppose technically, Alistair could have defeated Loghain in that duel, too. I assure you, though, things would have been ugly!

That whole scenario pisses me off, not just because it doesn't make sense in context of everything else you've done, but it's out of character for Alistair. I get that he prefers to follow, but he's never been a coward. Turning tail and leaving is the most cowardly act of the entire game. It's only purpose is to force an either/or scenario on the player, and disregards what the real options of the character would be.

I don't really think it's out of character. I think Alistiar is an emotional person, and is prone to make decisions emotionally. Hardening him only brings him so far in the area of standing up for himself and making wise decisions.

Modifié par phaonica, 13 août 2010 - 08:37 .

[Sarah1281]

Not to mention that despite everyone turning to you, at the very least a hardened Alistair should step up and say the decision is his because he is the true senior Warden in Ferelden.

And then Riordan would point out that Alistair only has six months on you (he was actually present for this Joining so he'd know) and that he himself has been a Warden since Duncan so if they're pulling rank...it's still not Alistair's decision.

[TJPags]

phaonica wrote...
Yes, technically that would have been treason, as much as the Revolution was technically treason in the first place. However, if your choices are 1) treason or 2) potentially undoing the efforts of your Revolution, I'm inclined to side with the traitors who want to maintain their independence.

I've given this thought, in an effort to see if this changes my mind on Loghain's actions and motivations.

My context was (as we had been discussing when this was posted) the American Revolution.  I tried to place myself in context as someone who had lived at that time, and had commanded American rebel forces against the English.  The I imagined a short time later, a new threat - an overwhelming invasion by the Spanish.  I tried to consider it in light of the Spanish mainly being based in South and Central America, thus invading through Texas and then North, with the caveat that there was no indication whether they were simply seeking control of Texas and the area around it (which, aside from parts of Louisiana, were hardly settled then) or trying to take over the country.  I then imagined that the first, and only, foreign power that my government sought help from was England.

Given this context, which I've tried to make as much like Loghain's as I could (obviously, there are no real darkspawn or archdemons), I wondered if I would react as he did.  The answer, ultimately, is no.

Yes, I would argue long and hard AGAINST seeking help from England.  I would SERIOUSLY consider revision of the government (as in, assasination or a coup).  I may even go ahead with that, as a last resort.  I would NOT accomplish this by the destruction of a large portion of my military forces by walking out on a battle with the Spanish, however, just so a President (King) can die.  I would NOT disregard warnings from people who had faced the Spanish before, even if I didn't trust them (let's even say they were imprisoned English Loyalists).  I WOULD take the current threat (Spain) seriously, and try to stop it.

Assuming I did gain some measure of power, I would try to reach out to other countries for aid (France, for instance) rather then insist on going it alone.  I would attempt to reach treaties with others in the country - native American Indians (think elves/dwarves) for military aid.  I would try to gain a concensus among other influential people to meet the existing threat and deal with it, THEN decide how to restructure the now broken government.  I would suggest allowing me (remember, in this scenario I, like Loghain, am considered a strong general and leader) to function in a leadership capacity while facing the threat, and agree to stand trial after it was done.  If that's not accepted, so long as there WERE competant leaders who could command the military, I'd accept imprisonment at that time.

I would be inclined to keep English (Orlesian) troops out of the country.  I would NOT, however, be willing to see the destruction of what I'd fought for at the hands of the Spanish JUST to do that.  To me, allowing that destroys all I'd fought for before, no matter that ir is the Spanish now ruling us, rather then England.

In summary, then - In this context, I can more easily understand Loghains position.  However, I still cannot agree with what he did and how he did it.

Therefore, he still has to die.  Even putting aside the death of Caillan (I may have done the same), the rest of what he did still, IMO, calls for death.

[TJPags]

Tirigon wrote...


Also, Orlaisians are idiots, is easy to rebel and drive them off again. Tevinter, not. You CAN´T fight bloodmages without the Litany of Andralla.

I don't know - my PC Warden and group killed quite a few blood mages without the Litany . . . .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Khavos wrote...

I disagree.  I actually don't think humans could create broodmothers, and therefore darkspawn.  I also don't think humans could come up with a way to completely kill the fertility of the land they pass over, nor taint every single animal so that it becomes a twisted and mutated Blight creature.  I also don't think Orlais could be nearly as efficient at full-on genocide as the darkspawn; Orlais has limited numbers, the darkspawn really don't.

You only have to look at Branka to know that humans could conceivably manipulate situations where broodmothers and darkspawn are created. It is not impossible.

Humans have also historically destroyed land to make it infertile/unusable to opposing forces. I believe flooding pastureland and them sowing the ground with salt has been one method.

Would Orlais do this to all of Ferelden? Perhaps not. But I don't think this argument is going anywhere.

You are arguing the Blight is the greater threat with the larger destructive potential. This is true. I agree.

But I (and others?) are arguing that while Orlesian rule would probably never be so catastrophic, it still has the potential to be horriffic on a different scale. Do you disagree?

Consider:

The last Blight prior to DA:O was centuries ago, it's history, but there are still people alive who remember the horrors of the Orlesian occupation. Does it make sense that these people in particular would fear a repeat of Orlais more than a darkspawn invasion where no archdemon has even shown up yet?

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 14 août 2010 - 01:45 .

[Monica21]

FiliusMartis wrote...
While the Blight was ended with 'domestic forces,' it's important to remember that the majority of these forces only helped because of the Grey Warden treaties. Without these the dwarves and elves would likely have done nothing, and they account for half the recruited army. Many of Arl Eamon's knights would have died in the continued search for the urn while Eamon wasted away, and the mages would have been eliminated.

Actually, you can choose not to help Redcliffe. If you don't, the town falls and you get no forces for the battle in Denerim.

It's also not sound strategy to allow your own armies to be all but obliterated while your 'enemy' is hanging around near the borders with a full armed force.

That's at least one reason why Loghain pulled back at Ostagar. He knew they couldn't win. As for trying to fight the Darkspawn with just domestic forces, that's what your Warden and eventual king/queen does. If Alistair or Anora is crowned, they don't send word to the allow the Chevaliers or even just the Orlesian Wardens in. It's several weeks between the Landsmeet and the final battle, so at the very least a rider could be sent ahead on the way to Redcliffe.