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[Dean_the_Young]

Khavos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Out of curiosity, what does the 'but Ferelden doesn't have the proper forces to reasonably face a real blight' argument have with anything? Loghaine didn't believe and even Cailen was starting to believe it was just a large raid once he actually saw the darkspawn a couple of times: why are we then judging the validity of their decisions from a position they didn't see from? I don't think anyone's arguing that the Blight wasn't a Blight from an outsider's view point.

Being given information and choosing to ignore it isn't the same as never having had the information in the first place.  Loghain was told, he chose to trust his own judgment.  He doesn't get let off the hook for essentially disregarding anything that conflicted with his paranoia.  

He was told it was a Blight by the Grey Wardens and Cailen. But Cailen is a young glory seeking fool who had no real expertice on the subject and the Grey Wardens, since no one knows they have Grey Warden powers and can see the Arch Demon in their dreams, are less a voice of mystical authority and more of an old order with a stake in inflating their own importance in a country they once tried help overthrow the monarchy of.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 août 2010 - 12:58 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Tirigon wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Blood Mages aren't all powerful. They can do some terrible and insidious things, but their spells do have resistance checks.

Well, the resistance checks are, again, there for the sake of gameplay, not lore. If you could render bloodmages useless by wearing your + 50% spell resist amulet the chantry wouldn´t have to combat them, they could simply distribute free amulets among the people and laugh about any bloodmage who tries to do something:devil::devil:

Weellll...just because there's no codex stating it's possible to resist blood magic doesn't mean it can't be done. That's all I'm saying.

However, according to the lore it is not like that. The codex states that even templars can only win against a bloodmage if they outnumber him, are well-prepared and are ready to accept that some (maybe even most) of them WILL die. And templars are trained all their life to battle abominations and bloodmages. Ordinary soldiers wouldn´t even stand a chance if they outnumber a bloodmage 100 to 1

Can you link me the codex please? Or tell me what the name of it was? I couldn't find it with a quick wiki search. :/

(If it was a Chantry-inspired Codex, there is every possibility they were hyping up the danger. I wouldn't put it past them to exaggerate the need for Templar protection.)

Or why do you think this Orlaisian bloodmage in Awakenings could enslave an entire village?

I don't remember much about Awakenings. The baroness occupied the Blackmarsh during the Orlesian occupation though, didn't she? I'm sure she had plenty of soldiers.

[Dean_the_Young]

jln.francisco wrote...

are less a voice of mystical authority and more of an old order with a stake in inflating their own importance.

This is very sloppy rationalizing on his part then. Wardens are the experts on Darkspawn knowing more about them then even the dwarves. To my knowledge, everyone knows this. They might not be aware why Warden's know so much but are familiar with their reputation. For Loghain to simply dismiss them on the grounds they might be making it up to inflate their importance is irredeemably irresponsible of him, in my opinion of course.

Being an expert at fighting Darkspawn does not ential being able to identify Blights from a remote distance: the distinction of a Blight from any large Darkspawn raid, after all, is that there is an ArchDemon, which was never seen before Ostagar. You can be very good at fighting Darkspawn for hundreds of generations (like the Dwarves) and not notice a blight (again, like the Dwarves you meet who have to be informed).

It's only a blight if there's an ArchDemon. No ArchDemon was seen, and the Wardens refuse to even tell outsiders how they can know, let alone telling them they've seen the ArchDemon in their dreams. Without any proven reason to back up their words, the Grey Wardens are just another group of people fighting the blight who, just like people wherever you go, also have their own ambitions to remember.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Weellll...just because there's no codex stating it's possible to resist blood magic doesn't mean it can't be done. That's all I'm saying.

However, according to the lore it is not like that. The codex states that even templars can only win against a bloodmage if they outnumber him, are well-prepared and are ready to accept that some (maybe even most) of them WILL die. And templars are trained all their life to battle abominations and bloodmages. Ordinary soldiers wouldn´t even stand a chance if they outnumber a bloodmage 100 to 1

Can you link me the codex please? Or tell me what the name of it was? I couldn't find it with a quick wiki search. :/

(If it was a Chantry-inspired Codex, there is every possibility they were hyping up the danger. I wouldn't put it past them to exaggerate the need for Templar protection.)

Given the history of Thedas, that isn't a slight suspicion. Plenty of societies, barbarians, and others beat and killed blood mages from time to time. That blood mages (a term in Tevinter with two separate implications: those who use blood for mana for regular casting and those who use Blood Magic spells) are powerful is not to say they are unbeatable, unkillable, or unresistable. Remember, after all, that the Juggernaut Armor itself is the creation of a blood mage who ended up losing.

Or why do you think this Orlaisian bloodmage in Awakenings could enslave an entire village?

I don't remember much about Awakenings. The baroness occupied the Blackmarsh during the Orlesian occupation though, didn't she? I'm sure she had plenty of soldiers.

And, you know, abomination.

Just saying.

[CalJones]

It's not so much that he thinks they might be making it up - he just doesn't buy into the whole Grey Warden legend and dismisses them as an order that no longer has any relevance in modern Thedas. Also bear in mind that his only previous experience of them involved a plot against Maric orchestrated by an Orlesian mage and involving Orlesian wardens, so he suspects that they are part of a plot to get lots of Orlesian forces into Fereldan without any resistance. Obviously he is suspicious, and thus likely to dismiss any claims that an archdemon *might* show up as a cover story.

[Monica21]

Khavos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Khavos wrote...
That indicates, to me, that they wanted what I've been saying: to expand their empire, their holdings.  Land's worthless without peasants to work it, so killing them all makes no sense.

Having peasants and serfs work land is a quite a bit different from deliberately administering a tax so high that freeholders can't afford to pay it.

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the majority of Ferelden isn't composed of landless peasants that I'm aware of. . 

I'm not sure what you're arguing at this point. Are you saying the tax wasn't a big deal since it didn't happen to the majority of Fereldens? I think most of the Bannorn is comprised of freeholders, and even if that's only 25% of the population then it's still a lot of people. Loghain's experience alone is reason enough why the Orlesian occupation was A Bad Thing and why Loghain had no interest in seeing Orlesians back in Ferelden.

[Poubo]

jln.francisco wrote...

Being an expert at fighting Darkspawn does not ential being able to identify Blights from a remote distance: the distinction of a Blight from any large Darkspawn raid, after all, is that there is an ArchDemon, which was never seen before Ostagar.

You are missing my point. Wardens aren't experts at fighting darkspawn. They're the authority on darkspawn and Blights. From what I understand of the games lore, everyone is aware of this. And I doubt a raiding party would have been enough to overwhelm all the Wardens and Cailan's forces. That they were that large should have been a red flag for Loghain if that was his real reason for abandoning Cailan.

then you obviously don't know a lot of Fereldans history

including Marics capture while under the  "care" of the wardens
The wardens willing to KILL the king of Fereldan MORE THAN ONCE
Orlesians have always had an agenda when involved. Loghain knew this and knew that as soon as they had a chance they would attack a weakened Fereldan in which the WARDENS WOULDNT CARE.
the fact that Loghain is a saviour to most people in Fereldan and is hated by Orlesians.

[Poubo]

jln.francisco wrote...

are less a voice of mystical authority and more of an old order with a stake in inflating their own importance.

This is very sloppy rationalizing on his part then. Wardens are the experts on Darkspawn knowing more about them then even the dwarves. To my knowledge, everyone knows this. They might not be aware why Warden's know so much but are familiar with their reputation. For Loghain to simply dismiss them on the grounds they might be making it up to inflate their importance is irredeemably irresponsible of him, in my opinion of course.

no, you are wrong, they don't know more than the Dwarves. They don't know much about Darkspawn.

[Tirigon]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


Can you link me the codex please? Or tell me what the name of it was? I couldn't find it with a quick wiki search. :/

(If it was a Chantry-inspired Codex, there is every possibility they were hyping up the danger. I wouldn't put it past them to exaggerate the need for Templar protection.)

Unfortunately, I´m not sure which exactly it was because I´m not playing DAO anymore (StarCraft II!!!!) but I think it´s the one you get from the abomination in a random encounter. Anyways, it´s not the only source. Duncan tells about it too, if you ask him in the mage origin if he´s ever seen bloodmagic used. He says that he has seen a couple of templars who caught one, and the Bloodmage forced them to fight each other. They could only win because the Bloodmage was apparently blind and didn´t see one of them, so this one could kill him.

[Tirigon]

jln.francisco wrote...

no, you are wrong, they don't know more than the Dwarves. They don't know much about Darkspawn.

Yes they do. While the dwarves know a lot about fighting darkspawn only the Wardens can track their movements, peer into their consciousness and listen to the Archdemon's commands/whispers. I'll agree the Wardens don't know as much as they should but they certainly know more then everyone else.

The Warden´s didn´t know about broodmothers unless the PC discovers them in the Orzammar quest. The dwarves did know.

[Poubo]

jln.francisco wrote...

no, you are wrong, they don't know more than the Dwarves. They don't know much about Darkspawn.

Yes they do. While the dwarves know a lot about fighting darkspawn only the Wardens can track their movements, peer into their consciousness and listen to the Archdemon's commands/whispers. I'll agree the Wardens don't know as much as they should but they certainly know more then everyone else.

ah yes, so thats why the arch demon went to Redcliffe right? Well played Riordan!

general Wardens don't know that darkspawn speak... until Duncan met the architect, they dont know why they make structures, they dont know anything!

the legion of the dead track darkspawn, just because i can see what you do and can hear what you say doesnt mean i know what youre saying or what youre doing

[Poubo]

jln.francisco wrote...

Poubo wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Being an expert at fighting Darkspawn does not ential being able to identify Blights from a remote distance: the distinction of a Blight from any large Darkspawn raid, after all, is that there is an ArchDemon, which was never seen before Ostagar.

You are missing my point. Wardens aren't experts at fighting darkspawn. They're the authority on darkspawn and Blights. From what I understand of the games lore, everyone is aware of this. And I doubt a raiding party would have been enough to overwhelm all the Wardens and Cailan's forces. That they were that large should have been a red flag for Loghain if that was his real reason for abandoning Cailan.

then you obviously don't know a lot of Fereldans history

including Marics capture while under the  "care" of the wardens
The wardens willing to KILL the king of Fereldan MORE THAN ONCE
Orlesians have always had an agenda when involved. Loghain knew this and knew that as soon as they had a chance they would attack a weakened Fereldan in which the WARDENS WOULDNT CARE.
the fact that Loghain is a saviour to most people in Fereldan and is hated by Orlesians.

Don't see what any of that has to do with Loghain ignoring the Blght in front of him and ignoring the advice of the people best suited and recognized as the authorities on the issue.

ok, so you dont know how history affects the future?

its like if i told you that i held a white coin in my hand, and you havent seen it, why should you believe me if i havent told you the truth or everything in the past?

[Poubo]

jln.francisco wrote...

@Poubo Why am I even arguing this. This is pedantic and pointless.

The Wardens are the experts on Blights and darkspawn. This is common knwloedge. Loghain ignored their adivce and decided a horde large enough to wipe out the Wardens and Cailan's army was just a raiding party that could be ignored. Even if dwarves know more then the Wardens (which they don't) their advice was neither looked for nor requested until much later after the events at Ostagar.

How do you know they know more? It's not common knowledge that they are experts! just that they are powerful warriors who do anything they can to stop blights. the last blight was centuries ago, the Dwarves see / fight / learn about the darkspawn everyday. the wardens dont, they rely on centuries old info, it's like looking at the world map in real life 300 years ago and saying that is up to date information for today.

they didnt even know about the architect who has been around for decades.

[Poubo]

jln.francisco wrote...

its like if i told you that i held a white coin in my hand, and you havent seen it, why should you believe me if i havent told you the truth or everything in the past?

This is a terrible analogy. The situations are much more complicated.

I've given my belief on what Loghain should have done if he truly believed Cailan was going to hand the country over to Orlais and I don't feel like getting into that again. Loghain behaved one of two ways, completely irrationally or with intent to murder.

no its a perfect analogy, its exactly what happened. what he did wasnt irrational in the battle, why sacrifice the entire southern army when he can use them later on, we dont know if they wouldve won the battle if they went in.

i personally believe that Loghain abandoned the battle after it took so long to light the beacon, it doesnt make you a bad commander to save the remaing forces. Blaming the wardens however is different, i dont know if that was his idea or Howes

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

Saying that Alistair did nothing may likely be the case until they decide to do a DLC that goes against it, but so far what we've seen in the game is that he wants the man who murdered his family to face execution and cannot abide by letting that man live. Maybe if he was a robot he wouldn't have any problem with the Warden sparing Loghain, but he's human. Throughout the game he basically opens up about having lost the only real family he ever had, it doesn't surprise me that he would be so adamant about it. As for morally right and wrong that's certainly an issue of perspective. In Alistair's eyes, it's morally wrong that Loghain is allowed to live despite his crimes, despite enslaving people, poisoning the Arl, making a deal that nearly lead the Circle to its destruction, and abandoning the King and the Wardens to die. He leaves the side of a Warden he can no longer trust, and I don't think he would be capable of effectively fighting alongside the man who has the blood of the Wardens on his hands.

It doesn't matter if it's morally wrong or not. Walking away and leaving Ferelden to its own fate would be WORSE than sparing any one man who didn't later go on to do unspeakable things once spared (and Loghain had very little credibility at that point and was watched enough that even before being shipped to Orlais it wasn't going to happen). I GET that he has deep feelings and he feels oh-so-very betrayed. It does not give him a pass on abandoing the entire country. He could have stayed and fought with someone else and had nothing to do with the Warden, Loghain, or anyone else he had a moral issue with. He didn't. And just because you feel that one day there might be a DLC detailing his heroic resistance against the Blight elsewhere doesn't mean we can take it as canon NOW.

You're right, all I can base the cannon on is what we're provided with, given how cannon seems to change if they can make more money with DLC, so all we really know is that Alistair left because he believed Loghain should die for his crimes and that he wasn't trustworthy. Despite his emotional state (given everything he lost, I think it's understandable) he makes it clear he doesn't trust Loghain at all. If Loghain is still in a position of power, then is Alistair going to trust any of the forces that might have some loyalty to Loghain, who he's made it clear he doesn't trust? Is he going to remain in Ferelden, especially if Anora has tried to have him executed once?  It's easy to say that Alistair should have done this or that, but he simply left a situation that he didn't trust, he didn't abandon anyone to their fate. Alistair doesn't leave Ferelden to its own fate, he leaves it in the hands of the Warden. The factor in him leaving is entirely Loghain. Alistair comments that Loghain is not be trustworthy, and the decision to let him live is, in Alistair's POV, leading Ferelden to doom, and since the Warden makes Loghain a Warden against Alistair's objections, it's clear that Alistair doesn't factor into this at all.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

The Warden is already the leader of the armies of the Dalish, Mages, and Redcliffe forces. Ridorian even refers to you as Commander of the armies if you mention about going with him to Ostagar when you speak with him at Eamon's.

And why are you, personally, the commander of the Dalish, dwarves, and mages? Game mechanics. A split-second poor decision is one thing. There were weeks between the Landsmeet and the siege of Denerim. He had time to come back.

Because I (the Warden) have a treaty that requires them to aid me in the time of a Blight? Because the Dalish and the dwarves aren't personally familiar with Ferelden, and I am? Because the mages are basically living in a literal prison under the heel of the templars and wouldn't have such leaders, and most probably haven't even been outside of the tower with the few exceptions of Senior Enchanters like Irving and Wynne? Because most of the human forces are mercenary who are following me into battle? Because they're all familiar with the fact that the Grey Wardens are the only ones capable of stopping a Blight? Because I am already acknowledged as the commander of the armies by a Senior Grey Warden that has nothing to do with any game mechanics in the game? Do I need to continue with this line of thought?

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

They might be talking from the perspective of seeing that Anora views the Warden as expendible. If you reveal that Anora was captured by Howe, she betrays you, refusing to reason with someone who may very likely defect from Loghain's side if she were to reveal the truth, and despite realizing that her father has gone off the deep end, she will betray you and doom Ferelden unless you support her as Queen. I'd guess it's more an issue of "Anora doesn't care about the Warden, why should the Warden care about her?"

Other peoples' Warden doesn't have to. They still shouldn't say that no one's is supposed to. It doesn't matter how horrible or sympathetic Anora herself or her cause might be, other people can't completely write her off for everyone.

 
Right or wrong, they're probably talking from the POV of someone who may have been betrayed by Anora twice, or thinks that Loghain and his daughter are untrustworthy. Some people on both sides have written the other off on this thread.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

Isn't the problem here that regardless of Loghain intended, Eamon would have died without the intervention of the desire demon and the use of the ashes of Andraste? Then he followed that up with failing at the Landsmeet, leading to a civil war that depleted forces and resources, and selling people into slavery.

I am of the opinion that if Eamon weren't supposed to die then it makes his poison less horrible. It doesn't make it okay, it doesn't make him deserving of it, it just makes it LESS bad. And we have no idea what the desire demon did other than presumably trapping Eamon in the Fade based on its dialogue. Connor and Isolde thought he was going to die which may or may not have been the truth and reacted accordingly.

Considering that mages were also brought in and it's made clear he would have died without the ashes, I'm going to say that it's one of Loghain's many, many mistakes. Loghain may have intended for Eamon not to die, but I'm guessing leaving the man to the whim of a poison that would have killed him without demonic intervention is one of a long list of Loghain's failures as Regent.

Sarah1281 wrote...

And I would disagree. As long as the Orlesians weren't invading Orzammar, Orzammar won't care. Lyrium would be just as needed no matter who has sovereignty and a common if not prevalent opinion during the BLIGHT was that it was now a Surface problem that didn't concern them. The dwarves and Surface aren't close to each other. Orzammar wants nothing to do with the Surface.

Some in Orzammar don't, but others recognize it as vital for survival to trade with the surface, which is why Bhelen opens up more trade with the surface if chosen as King because some of them do want something to do with the surface.

[TJPags]

Tirigon wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Ahhh, so only Tevinter has the real blood mages?  Everyone else is just a rookie?  Funny, took out those IMperium mages in the alienage without a problem, too. 

You don´t get me.

Thing is, if the Bloodmages in the game were as powerful as the lore describes them, even the weakest one would be a game-ender for everyone except another bloodmage, a rogue who manages to instakill him from stealth or a templar if he´s lucky.

On the other hand, a bloodmage character would be able to skip half the game as he could simply mind-control Loghain, Harrowmont etc.... and make them do what he wants.

To be honest, I think they shouldn´t have bloodmages or any other really strong stuff in a game. They can NEVER represent it appropriately without breaking the game.


Another good example for this problem comes from StarCraft II: In the campaign the Zerg are described as almost unstoppable and overrun multiple planets within a few hours, yet in the missions you play and in multiplayer they are rather easily to defeat (imo they are even the weakest of the 3 races). Simply because a Zerg-race that is autowin as soon as you pick them would break the game.

Well, lore and legend often makes things more powerful than they really are, no?

[Sarah1281]

Because I (the Warden) have a treaty that requires them to aid me in the time of a Blight? Because the Dalish and the dwarves aren't personally familiar with Ferelden, and I am? Because the mages are basically living in a literal prison under the heel of the templars and wouldn't have such leaders, and most probably haven't even been outside of the tower with the few exceptions of Senior Enchanters like Irving and Wynne? Because most of the human forces are mercenary who are following me into battle? Because they're all familiar with the fact that the Grey Wardens are the only ones capable of stopping a Blight? Because I am already acknowledged as the commander of the armies by a Senior Grey Warden that has nothing to do with any game mechanics in the game? Do I need to continue with this line of thought?

I strongly disagree. No one's standing there listening to Riordan say 'Oh, and you're in charge and Alistair might as well be replaced by LOGHAIN for all anyone would notice.' You AND Alistair have the treaties. If you were to, say, die in Fort Drakon then Alistair could go ahead and still use them as a GW. You're not unique in your ability to use them. Hell, if you AND Alistair died, Riordan could still use the treaties. Your insistence that the Warden has to be the one to use them when, game mechanics aside, there is no reason to think that really makes her come off as a Mary Sue.

Right or wrong, they're probably talking from the POV of someone who may have been betrayed by Anora twice, or thinks that Loghain and his daughter are untrustworthy. Some people on both sides have written the other off on this thread.

If you'll remember, I also have a problem with that. This point is really over with anyway. I said it's wrong for people to decide that everyone should write off one or the other's POV, you say that the other side does the same thing which doesn't actually say anything about it being right...I'm acknowledging that people do write off Alistair's POV, okay?

Considering that mages were also brought in and it's made clear he would have died without the ashes, I'm going to say that it's one of Loghain's many, many mistakes. Loghain may have intended for Eamon not to die, but I'm guessing leaving the man to the whim of a poison that would have killed him without demonic intervention is one of a long list of Loghain's failures as Regent.

How is that made clear? I don't exactly think he would have recovered on his own but being in a poison-induced coma until Loghain decided he wasn't a threat anymore and had the antidote given to him is hardly killing him. It's not morally right and I'm not defending his actions, I just don't think we can claim the game is telling us conclusively that we saved Eamon's life. We did cure him, yes, but saving his life? I don't see it. And no, I'm not about to take the word of a demon.

Some in Orzammar don't, but others recognize it as vital for survival to trade with the surface, which is why Bhelen opens up more trade with the surface if chosen as King because some of them do want something to do with the surface.

'Some in Orzammar' don't really matter if the King and most of the Assembly (such as is the case if Harrowmont takes the throne and seemed to be the case under Endrin) don't care. The merchants all care but they're directly above the servant caste. They don't have any political power. It's up to forward-thinking nobles like Bhelen and House Dace (who, though they're just as entitled as everyone else, are willing to ditch traditions for wealth and power) to prompt Orzammar to do something and if they're in the minority and don't hold power then Orzammar isn't going to come forward and help defend Ferelden. With the Blight, it was a threat that would destroy Orzammar as well. The Orlesians? They don't plan on killing everyone and why would the Orlesians occupying Ferelden mean that there will be less demand for lyrium? We didn't hear anything about that during the eighty year occupation just a generation ago. NO ONE in Orzammar cares if Ferelden is ruling itself or has someone else ruling it.