1092 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

jln.francisco wrote...

Well, lore and legend often makes things more powerful than they really are, no?

Blood Magic, darkspawn, abominations ect are strong and a different breed then what you're used to but like that soldier at Ostagar said about darkspawn,"Poke them hard enough with a sword and they die just the same." (or something like that.) They seem invicible because because don't always appreciate the ways power manifest itself or how everything is still vulnerable if you know how to fight it.

Sure, they're hard, I'm not saying they're not, but they're not all powerful.  In fact, Uldred in the Tower would have been cake if he hadn't turned all demon on ya.  Hell, my first playthrough, when I did the Tower last (I had killed Isolde in Redliffe earlier), it was like stroll through the park for me.

Like I said earlier - those Tevinter mages were a walkover, the ones in the Brecilian forest weren't too hard, and the only real problem was the blood mage house in Denerim - and then only when I try to go against them too soon.  Wait until I'm level 12 or so, no longer nearly as difficult.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I strongly disagree. No one's standing there listening to Riordan say 'Oh, and you're in charge and Alistair might as well be replaced by LOGHAIN for all anyone would notice.' You AND Alistair have the treaties. If you were to, say, die in Fort Drakon then Alistair could go ahead and still use them as a GW. You're not unique in your ability to use them. Hell, if you AND Alistair died, Riordan could still use the treaties. Your insistence that the Warden has to be the one to use them when, game mechanics aside, there is no reason to think that really makes her come off as a Mary Sue.

You have me at a loss here, because I'm not insisting that the Warden is the one who has to use them. I'm not even saying that the Warden is unique in using them. Why you think I'm saying this eludes me. Although Alistair is the Senior Warden in Ferelden, he doesn't take charge. He's not the one actively making the decisions involving what places will be visited or how they will get the treaties secured with the various groups. I'm saying the Warden is the one who has established the treaties with the other groups in the storyline, because he or she is the one actively speaking to the leaders of these groups to get support against the Blight. Alistair leaves the Warden to take charge and they acknowledge the Warden as the one leading the charge against the Blight. It's not a surprise, since Wardens end Blights (and I'm guessing the dwarves and elves don't really know Ferelden enough to make any tactical assumptions here). Riordian also confirms the Warden as the commander of these armies with no game mechanics necessary for the inclusion of such dialogue.

Sarah1281 wrote...

How is that made clear? I don't exactly think he would have recovered on his own but being in a poison-induced coma until Loghain decided he wasn't a threat anymore and had the antidote given to him is hardly killing him. It's not morally right and I'm not defending his actions, I just don't think we can claim the game is telling us conclusively that we saved Eamon's life. We did cure him, yes, but saving his life? I don't see it. And no, I'm not about to take the word of a demon.

I'm guessing because every single person says he's going to die without the ashes, that it probably means he's going to die without the ashes. Considering that mages were also brought in, I'd say that it's likely they helped them reach this conclusion, too. In addition, if you examine Eamon on the bed after defeating the demon, you know that without the ashes he's going to perish.

Sarah1281 wrote...

'Some in Orzammar' don't really matter if the King and most of the Assembly (such as is the case if Harrowmont takes the throne and seemed to be the case under Endrin) don't care. The merchants all care but they're directly above the servant caste. They don't have any political power. It's up to forward-thinking nobles like Bhelen and House Dace (who, though they're just as entitled as everyone else, are willing to ditch traditions for wealth and power) to prompt Orzammar to do something and if they're in the minority and don't hold power then Orzammar isn't going to come forward and help defend Ferelden. With the Blight, it was a threat that would destroy Orzammar as well. The Orlesians? They don't plan on killing everyone and why would the Orlesians occupying Ferelden mean that there will be less demand for lyrium? We didn't hear anything about that during the eighty year occupation just a generation ago. NO ONE in Orzammar cares if Ferelden is ruling itself or has someone else ruling it.

Or, in the case of King Bhelen and most of the dwarves who are dependent on surface trade, some of them do matter regardless of their caste since the Assembly is dissolved and all the power remains with the King, with the warrior caste answering directly to him. As for concern about Orlais, I don't see Bhelen being ignorant of how Orlais likes to invade other nations and how the Chantry is trying to spread its influence throughout Thedas. The knowledge that someone is trying to preach the Chant of Light would be a concern to him because the Chantry holds sway in other nations, even a nation Orlais previously invaded. It's certainly not in Bhelen's favor to have dwarves worshipping the Chant of Light and seeing the Divine as more important than the King of Orzammar.

[Dean_the_Young]

jln.francisco wrote...

Being an expert at fighting Darkspawn does not ential being able to identify Blights from a remote distance: the distinction of a Blight from any large Darkspawn raid, after all, is that there is an ArchDemon, which was never seen before Ostagar.

You are missing my point. Wardens aren't experts at fighting darkspawn. They're the authority on darkspawn and Blights. From what I understand of the games lore, everyone is aware of this.

As far as everyone is aware, they're an authority in the same sense that the Dwarves are: simply because they fight darkspawn alot. They are an authority in the same sense that the chantry is an authority on mages: certainly plenty of experience, but hardly all-knowing, impartial, or unbiased. No one knows that they can hear the Darkspawn and the ArchDemon, so no one can credit them with supernatural abilities to rely on. As far as the game lore is concerned, Grey Wardens are just a mix-match of regular elite warriors.

And I doubt a raiding party would have been enough to overwhelm all the Wardens and Cailan's forces. That they were that large should have been a red flag for Loghain if that was his real reason for abandoning Cailan.

Since Cailan does say that the Darkspawn presence till then could be just a large raiding party from the Deep Roads (where, as the Dwarves like to remind us, every day is as bad as a Blight), it isn't unknown for exceptionally large groups to emerge without a Blight.

At Ostagar, of course, the hoarde was bigger than had been thought... but by then, the question of whether it was a Blight or not was far too late to matter.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 août 2010 - 05:06 .

[Dean_the_Young]

jln.francisco wrote...

@Poubo Why am I even arguing this. This is pedantic and pointless.

The Wardens are the experts on Blights and darkspawn. This is common knwloedge. Loghain ignored their adivce and decided a horde large enough to wipe out the Wardens and Cailan's army was just a raiding party that could be ignored. Even if dwarves know more then the Wardens (which they don't) their advice was neither looked for nor requested until much later after the events at Ostagar.

What basis do the Wardens have for calling it a Blight? Saying 'they are experts' is irrelevant, since even experts have to be able to point to something to justify their evaluations: infact, unsupported appeals to authority are considered fallacy arguments. Without being able to point to an ArchDemon, the Wardens really had no grounds to declare it a Blight as opposed a large surface raid.

In Ferelden, the Wardens are a compromised party, not beacons of integrity to be trusted automatically. They've tried to meddle in politics and kings to their own advantage before, and it's widely known that they enjoy doing the same in other countries like the Anderfels. To be a reputable player you need a good reputation, which the Wardens don't enjoy. Without such a reputation, anything that could be seen otherwise has to be backed up by support.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 août 2010 - 05:17 .

[Khavos]

Monica21 wrote...

I'm not sure what you're arguing at this point. Are you saying the tax wasn't a big deal since it didn't happen to the majority of Fereldens? I think most of the Bannorn is comprised of freeholders, and even if that's only 25% of the population then it's still a lot of people. Loghain's experience alone is reason enough why the Orlesian occupation was A Bad Thing and why Loghain had no interest in seeing Orlesians back in Ferelden.

I have no idea where the Wiki gets its information, but it claims that only a "few" commoners are landholders.  My point is that the tax, by Gaider's own admission, is levied primarily to drive the elite out of power.  Power in Ferelden arises from the support of the freeholders; that's why there are Landsmeets in the first place.  If you're occupying a country, you don't leave the political class in charge of things.  For the vast majority of the populace, the new tax wouldn't have changed a thing save who they worked for.  

[Khavos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What basis do the Wardens have for calling it a Blight? Saying 'they are experts' is irrelevant, since even experts have to be able to point to something to justify their evaluations: infact, unsupported appeals to authority are considered fallacy arguments. Without being able to point to an ArchDemon, the Wardens really had no grounds to declare it a Blight as opposed a large surface raid.

In Ferelden, the Wardens are a compromised party, not beacons of integrity to be trusted automatically. They've tried to meddle in politics and kings to their own advantage before, and it's widely known that they enjoy doing the same in other countries like the Anderfels. To be a reputable player you need a good reputation, which the Wardens don't enjoy. Without such a reputation, anything that could be seen otherwise has to be backed up by support.

The Wardens know if an archdemon's about or not.  That's a pretty good basis.  Duncan knew the archdemon wasn't at Ostagar, but I don't believe he ever said there wasn't an archdemon, period.

The Wardens enjoy a perfect reputation when it comes to both identifying and defeating Blights.  They've never cried wolf about Blights, and whenever they've said one was occurring, one was occurring. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Khavos wrote...
The Wardens know if an archdemon's about or not.  That's a pretty good basis.  Duncan knew the archdemon wasn't at Ostagar, but I don't believe he ever said there wasn't an archdemon, period.

The fact that they know is a secret they keep from others. They don't tell how or why they know: they just claim it.

The Wardens enjoy a perfect reputation when it comes to both identifying and defeating Blights.  They've never cried wolf about Blights, and whenever they've said one was occurring, one was occurring. 

What proof do you have of that?

[erilben]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As far as everyone is aware, they're an authority in the same sense that the Dwarves are: simply because they fight darkspawn alot. They are an authority in the same sense that the chantry is an authority on mages: certainly plenty of experience, but hardly all-knowing, impartial, or unbiased. No one knows that they can hear the Darkspawn and the ArchDemon, so no one can credit them with supernatural abilities to rely on. As far as the game lore is concerned, Grey Wardens are just a mix-match of regular elite warriors.

People know Wardens can sense the darkspawn. Velenna knew it, and that's
why she wants to become one. She says "they say Wardens can sense
darkspawn even deep within the ground".

[Khavos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What proof do you have of that?

Can you cite any references to them ever having claimed a Blight was occurring when it wasn't, thus completely destroying their reputation as far as such matters go?  I sure can't.  

[FiliusMartis]

Darkspawn Emissaries and Ogres typically appear during Blights, and I'm fairly sure both are present at Ostagar. I'll also point out that even after Ostagar Loghain insists it's not a Blight for quite some time.

[CalJones]

The problem is that there hasn't been a Blight for 400 years and the previous Blight was assumed to be the last by many. No one alive remembers a Blight (well, aside from Flemmeth) so most would have to take the wardens' word for it.

[Monica21]

Khavos wrote...
I have no idea where the Wiki gets its information, but it claims that only a "few" commoners are landholders.  My point is that the tax, by Gaider's own admission, is levied primarily to drive the elite out of power.  Power in Ferelden arises from the support of the freeholders; that's why there are Landsmeets in the first place.  If you're occupying a country, you don't leave the political class in charge of things.  For the vast majority of the populace, the new tax wouldn't have changed a thing save who they worked for. 

If that was Gaider's claim, then he's forgotten what he wrote in his own book. Freeholders are hardly elite, and I don't believe they get the invite to the Landsmeet. They're still attached to a Bann. The Bann votes for them and since there are far more Banns than Arls and Teryns that's where the political power is. Since the Orlesians were taxing freeholders, the Banns didn't really
have a reason to care who got the land unless they wanted to consider it
unjust. The point (per The Stolen Throne) was to drive out those who couldn't pay, not drive out the elite. What's the point in driving out the elite when you can just bribe the Banns to be on your side?

[Khavos]

CalJones wrote...

The problem is that there hasn't been a Blight for 400 years and the previous Blight was assumed to be the last by many. No one alive remembers a Blight (well, aside from Flemmeth) so most would have to take the wardens' word for it.

I think that's true for all of them.  Maybe not 400 years, but they don't come right on top of each other, either. 

[Monica21]

Khavos wrote...
The Wardens know if an archdemon's about or not.  That's a pretty good basis.  Duncan knew the archdemon wasn't at Ostagar, but I don't believe he ever said there wasn't an archdemon, period.

The Wardens enjoy a perfect reputation when it comes to both identifying and defeating Blights.  They've never cried wolf about Blights, and whenever they've said one was occurring, one was occurring. 

In addition to the time between blights, the fact that most people thought blights were ended, the fact that most people (especially in Ferelden) don't remember why Wardens are important, they also have a questionable reputation in Ferelden. There are Orlesian troops sitting on the western border and you have a group of what are essentially mystics telling you it's a blight. "How do you know it's a blight?" "Well, you'll just have to trust me." Loghain couldn't see the blight but he could see the Orlesian massed on his border. The greater threat to him was what he could see.

[Dean_the_Young]

Khavos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What proof do you have of that?

Can you cite any references to them ever having claimed a Blight was occurring when it wasn't, thus completely destroying their reputation as far as such matters go?  I sure can't.  

A blight particularly? No, but then I can't claim they've never done so either. Lying in general, political conspiracies, and an organizational instinct towards increasing their own power? Yes.

To be frank, that's the problem liars have: even if they never lie in one area, the fact that they do lie and take advantage of others in any others means that far fewer people will trust them. Even if you proclaim 'I never lie about this,' the reputation of a liar reminds people that, yes, you very well could.

Certainly there's no reason they could't lie for their own benefit. Cailen is impressionable and enamored in the glory of the Wardens, and what he can do for himself. Simply taking advantage of a large incursion and going 'this has the signs of a Blight' is relatively costless: no one, after all, knows why the Grey Wardens would no they're lying.

[Dean_the_Young]

erilben wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
As far as everyone is aware, they're an authority in the same sense that the Dwarves are: simply because they fight darkspawn alot. They are an authority in the same sense that the chantry is an authority on mages: certainly plenty of experience, but hardly all-knowing, impartial, or unbiased. No one knows that they can hear the Darkspawn and the ArchDemon, so no one can credit them with supernatural abilities to rely on. As far as the game lore is concerned, Grey Wardens are just a mix-match of regular elite warriors.

People know Wardens can sense the darkspawn. Velenna knew it, and that's
why she wants to become one. She says "they say Wardens can sense
darkspawn even deep within the ground".

Velenna, as a mage and a Dalish, has access to knowledge most people don't. Certainly the Warden, Daveth, and Sir Jory didn't know until they were told during their own initation challenge. It is, at most, very uncommon knowledge outside the Wardens.

There's also a distinction to be made between sensing Darkspawn and dreaming of ArchDemons, and the knowledge about that distinction as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Darkspawn Emissaries and Ogres typically appear during Blights, and I'm fairly sure both are present at Ostagar. I'll also point out that even after Ostagar Loghain insists it's not a Blight for quite some time.

At Ostagar, it's far too late to matter in the planning phase of whether to judge this as a Blight or not. And when exactly Loghain accepted and believed it to be a Blight is irrelevant to the grounds of whether and why he should have judged it in the first place.

Emissaries and Ogres have been known to appear above ground as well. Uncommon, yes, but not unknown, and certainly wouldn't be amiss in something as out of the ordinary as a big incursion.

[FiliusMartis]

The point I was making is that there was plenty of evidence to support the wardens' assertion that it was a Blight. Duncan told them he could sense the archdemon; who may have believed him is another matter.



All I'm saying is that there is a good deal of evidence of a Blight: the wardens say they sense an archdemon, darkspawn which 'traditionally only appear during a Blight' are about, and a large and organized horde is attacking. Was it too late at Ostagar? Maybe, but that's difficult to say. In my opinion, not believing/thinking it was a Blight is not a viable defense. That's all.

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Can you back up that statement with something? Something that implies that the fugitive camps were rare, or that the villagers weren't living in fear, or that it was hard to recruit into the rebel army because people were living comfortably? 

I didn't say that people were living comfortably.  You said that the majority of the people - over half the population of Ferelden - suffered severe abuse at the hands of Orlais.  You have just as much data as I do, which is, of course, none.  Can you back up the statement that the majority of Fereldens were severely abused at the hands of the Orlesians?  Of course not.  I'm sure Gaider didn't provide statistics. 

I may not have a straight up statistic, no. At least I provided some evidence that people were being abused from the commoners to the nobles. If I said that definitively more people were being abused than not, then yes, that would be incorrect. I think there is *more evidence* to support that more people were being abused than there is to support that fewer people were being abused. Is it a definite? No. But it is better supported.

Some of them, yes.  The Wiki states that "freeholder" is the term for any land-owner in Ferelden, and that "a few" commoners are freeholders.  The majority of the country didn't have land to lose in the first place. 

Why are we considering only commoner-landowners? Can't banns and various nobles also own land? 

Yes, he is ignoring the Blight. 

This may be true to an extent, I will grant, because he says he will bring the nobles into line and then fight the darkspawn. But does that not also indicate that he has an intention of fighting the darkspawn once the civil war was dealt with? And on that note, does that not also mean that the banns and his opposition are not also "ignoring the Blight" to prioritize the civil war? 

Because, again, Alistair and the Warden are working with very limited options.

So what? They think there is such a thing as a plan that will work without the Orlesians. Loghain thinks that there is such a thing as a plan that will work without the Orlesians. Whether or not they have access to the Orlesians or not makes no difference. Loghain and Alistair and the Warden all think that it is possible for Ferelden to win the war without Orlesian support.

"We're the only two Wardens currently in Ferelden, it won't hurt to try."   

Yes, it could hurt to try. If you're facing a Blight and "everyone knows" that you need several nations to beat it, then a plan that involves destroying several domestic armies sounds like a really hopeless and stupid waste of life.

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Khavos wrote..
The Wardens enjoy a perfect reputation when it comes to both identifying and defeating Blights. They've never cried wolf about Blights, and whenever they've said one was occurring, one was occurring.

What proof do you have of that?

Can you cite any references to them ever having claimed a Blight was occurring when it wasn't, thus completely destroying their reputation as far as such matters go? I sure can't.

The lack of concrete evidence against the Wardens crying wolf does not prove that the Wardens have a faultless reputation identifying Blights. Neither stance can be proven.

Modifié par phaonica, 14 août 2010 - 11:24 .

[phaonica]

FiliusMartis wrote...

The point I was making is that there was plenty of evidence to support the wardens' assertion that it was a Blight. Duncan told them he could sense the archdemon; who may have believed him is another matter.

All I'm saying is that there is a good deal of evidence of a Blight: the wardens say they sense an archdemon, darkspawn which 'traditionally only appear during a Blight' are about, and a large and organized horde is attacking. Was it too late at Ostagar? Maybe, but that's difficult to say. In my opinion, not believing/thinking it was a Blight is not a viable defense. That's all.

You know, Loghain wasn't the only person at Ostagar who doubted this was a Blight.

Cailan: Ha! Eamon just wants in on the glory. We've won three battles against these monsters and tomorrow should be no different.
Duncan: Your Majesty, I'm not certain the Blight can be ended quite as... quickly as you might wish.
Cailan: I'm not even sure this is a true Blight. There are plenty of darkspawn on the field, but alas, we've seen no sign of an archdemon.
Duncan: Disappointed, your Majesty?
Cailan: I'd hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding with the fabled Grey Wardens against a tainted god! But I suppose this will have to do.

PC: Perhaps this isn't really a Blight after all.
Duncan: So some believe, but I disagree. (VO notes: he doesn't really blame them for believing what they do, even if he knows they are being foolish)
Duncan: Despite the victories so far, the darkspawn horde grows larger with each passing day. By now, they look to outnumber us.
Duncan: I know there is an archdemon behind this. But I cannot ask the king to act solely on my feeling.
PC: Why not? He seems to regard the Grey Wardens highly.
Duncan: Yet not enough to wait for reinforcements from the Grey Wardens of Orlais. He believes our legend alone makes him invulnerable. (VO notes: wry -- he thinks the King is being foolish, yet obviously he cannot object too strenuously)

I'm starting to doubt that Duncan actually ever told anyone "There is certainly, definitely an archdemon. Wardens can sense them and I sense one." Even when Cailan is doubting the Blight, Duncan does not assure him that there is an archdemon, this is a Blight.

[Dean_the_Young]

FiliusMartis wrote...

The point I was making is that there was plenty of evidence to support the wardens' assertion that it was a Blight. Duncan told them he could sense the archdemon; who may have believed him is another matter.

All I'm saying is that there is a good deal of evidence of a Blight: the wardens say they sense an archdemon, darkspawn which 'traditionally only appear during a Blight' are about, and a large and organized horde is attacking. Was it too late at Ostagar? Maybe, but that's difficult to say. In my opinion, not believing/thinking it was a Blight is not a viable defense. That's all.

Except you didn't provide any evidence.

The presence of emissionaries and ogres aren't proof: they have been known to do it before, and are reasonable to expect in something as unusual as a large surface raid. The word of the Grey Wardens isn't evidence unless people know why it's justified, which nothing suggests Loghain did. Heck, Duncan didn't even say 'I sense an ArchDemon', as Alistair notes when he explains the nature of the dreams to the Warden and that no one understood Duncan's reasons.

Good evidence, to be useful, has to clearly point towards something while rejecting other explanations. When it can't be supported, or can be explained by other means, it becomes circumstantial at best. And circumstantial evidence is not some all-powerful proof that you can condemn others for having the judgement of not believing even if it was true.

[Tirigon]

TJPags wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Well, lore and legend often makes things more powerful than they really are, no?

Blood Magic, darkspawn, abominations ect are strong and a different breed then what you're used to but like that soldier at Ostagar said about darkspawn,"Poke them hard enough with a sword and they die just the same." (or something like that.) They seem invicible because because don't always appreciate the ways power manifest itself or how everything is still vulnerable if you know how to fight it.

Sure, they're hard, I'm not saying they're not, but they're not all powerful.  In fact, Uldred in the Tower would have been cake if he hadn't turned all demon on ya.  Hell, my first playthrough, when I did the Tower last (I had killed Isolde in Redliffe earlier), it was like stroll through the park for me.

Like I said earlier - those Tevinter mages were a walkover, the ones in the Brecilian forest weren't too hard, and the only real problem was the blood mage house in Denerim - and then only when I try to go against them too soon.  Wait until I'm level 12 or so, no longer nearly as difficult.

For the last time, gameplay and lore don´t fit. If we talk about the gameplay, yes, bloodmages are free kills.

If we talk about the lore they are almost invincible. The only way to kill one without being a stronger bloodmage is killing him before he sees you.

Modifié par Tirigon, 14 août 2010 - 11:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Tirigon wrote...
For the last time, gameplay and lore don´t fit. If we talk about the gameplay, yes, bloodmages are free kills.

If we talk about the lore they are almost invincible. The only way to kill one without being a stronger bloodmage is killing him before he sees you.

Or swarming them. Plenty of magisters are known to have been overrun by weight of numbers: the Juggernaut Armor, the Avaar Barbarians and Vigel's Keep, the various successful rebelions. (If one doesn't believe the Maker exists, and rather that Andraste was a powerful mage and the Ashes a product of the potent lyrium veins in the temple, Andraste's crusade against the Empire as well).

Blood mages aren't invincible by anymeans. Just very, very dangerous.

[phaonica]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The word of the Grey Wardens isn't evidence unless people know why it's justified, which nothing suggests Loghain did. Heck, Duncan didn't even say 'I sense an ArchDemon', as Alistair notes when he explains the nature of the dreams to the Warden and that no one understood Duncan's reasons.

I looked up this dialog and found this:

Alistair: The archdemon, it... "talks" to the horde, and we feel it just as they do. That's why we know this is really a Blight.
PC: Why didn't Duncan just tell everyone that?
Alistair: He did. He said he felt the archdemon's presence. Everyone just assumed he was guessing.

So maybe Duncan did tell them. And Loghain was not the only person who doubted.