1092 réponses à ce sujet

[FiliusMartis]

phaonica wrote...



I looked up this dialog and found this:

Alistair: The archdemon, it... "talks" to the horde, and we feel it just as they do. That's why we know this is really a Blight.

PC: Why didn't Duncan just tell everyone that?

Alistair: He did. He said he felt the archdemon's presence. Everyone just assumed he was guessing.

Yes. This is what I was referring to. I was trying to get to the point in the game myself to find it, but you beat me to it. Thank you for finding it.



Duncan told them he sensed an archdemon. Witness testimony, for lack of a better term, can be presented as evidence. People can doubt or disbelieve all they want, but it is still evidence. The ogres and emissaries would be considered circumstantial evidence, but still evidence.



So yes, there is evidence. I never said there was proof. There is a distinct difference there.

[Dean_the_Young]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Duncan told them he sensed an archdemon. Witness testimony, for lack of a better term, can be presented as evidence. People can doubt or disbelieve all they want, but it is still evidence. The ogres and emissaries would be considered circumstantial evidence, but still evidence.

So yes, there is evidence. I never said there was proof. There is a distinct difference there.

A witness claims to have actually seen the event in question.  Duncan didn't: without telling people that he could sense the ArchDemon, without people knowing that Grey Wardens could sense Wardens, what else are they to think? He can't qualify as a witness testimony if the people have no reason to think he can see, figuratively speaking.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 août 2010 - 01:10 .

[FiliusMartis]

I'm not sure I follow you. Duncan said he could sense the archdemon. Whether or not everybody believed him or not is beside the point. We're dealing with a magical world; our own natural laws may or may not apply. Honestly, I do not know how many people know of the wardens' talents; I don't think it's every specifically stated.



A witness is someone who perceives an event. Duncan is a grey warden. He says that his grey warden perception allows him to sense the archdemon. This is evidence. People may call Duncan's perception into question the same way lawyers call the sight of little old ladies who point out their client as a criminal do; people may choose to disbelieve the evidence as it's not foolproof.



Ogres and emissaries appearing, the grey warden commander's testimony to having sensed an archdemon, and a large organized horde preparing an attack are strong evidence for a Blight. I see no point in arguing this any further.

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain and Cailan werent anyone with expertise in the magical, or wardening though.

Someone from an order who got kicked out for treason, is making a doomsday predection on some vauge feeling. I can see skepticism, but the whole orge, emissary, and horde thing going on should wave a flag.



Calian and Loghain are undoubtedly well read people and should know that there is evidence of something big going, on not a raid.

[FiliusMartis]

Someone from an order who got kicked out for treason, is making a doomsday predection on some vauge feeling. I can see skepticism, but the whole orge, emissary, and horde thing going on should wave a flag.

Yes. What I was meaning to say this whole time is that the events working as a whole are strong evidence. One of those things on its own, maybe not, but all of them together should be raising flags. Big red flags which billow violently in the wind.

[Giggles_Manically]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Someone from an order who got kicked out for treason, is making a doomsday predection on some vauge feeling. I can see skepticism, but the whole orge, emissary, and horde thing going on should wave a flag.

Yes. What I was meaning to say this whole time is that the events working as a whole are strong evidence. One of those things on its own, maybe not, but all of them together should be raising flags. Big red flags which billow violently in the wind.

We are talking about Cailian, the guy who does part time shampoo comercials and Loghain the guy who sees Orlesians in his brekfast porridge right?

Those two arent exactly on the most rational and forward thinking side of things.

[FiliusMartis]

Cailan has enough sense to call in grey warden reinforcements originally though. Wait ...what are you disputing now? I was just agreeing with you about flags.

[Giggles_Manically]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Cailan has enough sense to call in grey warden reinforcements originally though. Wait ...what are you disputing now? I was just agreeing with you about flags.

Calian had already laughed at the idea of it being a blight, while meeting you.
Loghain didnt trust the wardens at all.

I was stating that while yes a rational, and knowledable person would see the signs of a blight (Duncan) L&C would not since they either didnt believe the warcens or had dismissed the idea of a blight.

[phaonica]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I'm not sure I follow you. Duncan said he could sense the archdemon. Whether or not everybody believed him or not is beside the point. We're dealing with a magical world; our own natural laws may or may not apply. Honestly, I do not know how many people know of the wardens' talents; I don't think it's every specifically stated.

A witness is someone who perceives an event. Duncan is a grey warden. He says that his grey warden perception allows him to sense the archdemon. This is evidence. People may call Duncan's perception into question the same way lawyers call the sight of little old ladies who point out their client as a criminal do; people may choose to disbelieve the evidence as it's not foolproof.

Ogres and emissaries appearing, the grey warden commander's testimony to having sensed an archdemon, and a large organized horde preparing an attack are strong evidence for a Blight. I see no point in arguing this any further.

They might be evidence, but I wouldn't consider them "strong" evidence.

1) Ogres and emissaries are appearing
"While darkspawn can occasionally be found raiding on the surface world, it is not termed an actual Blight unless an Archdemon leads them. " (http://www.dragonage...light-darkspawn)

Edit: I'm not one to be unfair, however, so I'll post this info, too:
"emissaries rarely appear outside of a Blight, when they appear to ensure that the generals and commanders of the darkspawn armies serve the Archdemon's interests and not their own." (http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Emissary)
"Traditionally, they [ogres] only appear during a Blight, but some records claim that ogres have been spotted in the Deep Roads hunting alone or in small groups. At least one report by the Grey Wardens claims that an ogre was spotted alone in the Korcari Wilds " (http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ogre)

We know that these creatures appeared at the final battle at Ostagar. If all of this is such common darkspawn knowledge, I'm wondering why Duncan couldn't even manage to convince Cailan for sure that this was a Blight. Maybe the emissaries and ogres hadn't shown up yet?

2) Grey Warden Testimony
"[After the Fourth Blight], the rulers chose to tell the people that the Blight was forever defeated as a way to restore order. No other Blight would occur for 400 more years, so the belief that the Blight is forever gone is common among the people of Thedas. " (http://www.dragonage...light-darkspawn )
"'[The Wardens] were revered by the people, and the nations of humanity once gladly supported them with food, equipment and a steady stream of recruits. Governments are still expected to pay a tithe to the Grey Wardens, but it has been four hundred years since the last Blight, and many now think the Grey Wardens to be irrelevant and obsolete. Their numbers have dwindled to near extinction, and although they are now seen to be only a relic of a once great and proud league of heroes, the few remaining Grey Wardens still keep up their training  " (http://www.dragonage...ns/grey-wardens)

3) The horde is large and organized:
This is probably the primary reason people will eventually decide that this is actually a Blight, even without the appearance of the Archdemon. However, in the beginning, Duncan couldn't even convince Cailan that it was definitely a Blight.
"We've won three battles against these monsters and tomorrow should be no different. I'm not even sure this is a true Blight. There are plenty of darkspawn on the field, but alas, we've seen no sign of an archdemon." (Cailan before the last battle at Ostagar).

Edit: Here is another tale of darkspawn in large numbers on the surface. Not enough to phase an army, to be sure, but enough to say that darkspawn in large groups on the surface are not unheard of:
"It was centuries now since the end of the Fourth Blight, and the world had moving on. Some said the darkspawn no longer existed, or thought that occasional darkspawn raids in remote lands proved them now no more than a nuisance. But although the battles were hidden from human eyes, the dwarves still clashed with the darkspawn in the Deep Roads. Ignorance would not make the threat disappear. Here, in this remote village in southern Ferelden, the darkspawn had risen in such numbers that the people had been completely overwhelmed." (http://social.biowar...ndex.php/Duncan)

Modifié par phaonica, 15 août 2010 - 03:07 .

[FiliusMartis]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Calian and Loghain are undoubtedly well read people and should know that there is evidence of something big going, on not a raid.

I can't imagine Cailan not believing the wardens since he loves them soooo much. He probably just thinks that they're combined awesomeness is going to prevent the Blight before it gets a foothold and the archdemon is going to off itself in despair.



Not believing the wardens is one thing, but pulling out your troops because there were too many darkspawn (including ones that usually only appear during Blights) and then maintaining that it's not a Blight is... dumb.

[Daryn Mercio]

Last Darkness wrote...

Being a Gray Warden is a Death Sentance, its not all high and noble. First you have to survive the joining, then you fight darkspawn at all times and probably die in battle. If you live for 30 years you die from the taint.

Lemme ask would you just kill the greatest general ferelden has ever known instead of using him to further the Grey Wardens goals? Also you do know theres a ending option to have Alistair and Anora on the Throne and Loghaine to sacrifice himself killing the Archdemon.

Plus what most people dont consider though is Alistair is a terrible choice for King, he only wants to be left alone to do his own thing and enjoy his freedom and kill the man responsible for Duncans death.

Loghaine is a perfect example of what the Grey Wardens stand for. Do anything and everything reguardless of ethics and morality for what you belive is best for your people.

No one but grey wardens know it is a death sentence. Everyone would believe Loghain was some grand hero as Grey Wardens are revered as noble and skilled warriors.
The "Greatest General in Ferelden" also happens to b the biggest nutjob in Ferelden, allowing his hatred of Orlais to consume him and brainwash him into trying to usurp power from the rightful king.
Alistair is the best choice for king if you harden him, and the only reason he wants Loghain dead is because Loghain is the cause of Duncan, Alistairs only actual father figure in his life, to die. If you have ever played the human noble and wanted Howes head on a pike, you would know Alistairs hatred for Loghain and the reason he wants him dead

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...
2) Grey Warden Testimony
"[After the Fourth Blight], the rulers chose to tell the people that the Blight was forever defeated as a way to restore order. No other Blight would occur for 400 more years, so the belief that the Blight is forever gone is common among the people of Thedas. " (http://www.dragonage...light-darkspawn )
"'[The Wardens] were revered by the people, and the nations of humanity once gladly supported them with food, equipment and a steady stream of recruits. Governments are still expected to pay a tithe to the Grey Wardens, but it has been four hundred years since the last Blight, and many now think the Grey Wardens to be irrelevant and obsolete. Their numbers have dwindled to near extinction, and although they are now seen to be only a relic of a once great and proud league of heroes, the few remaining Grey Wardens still keep up their training  " (http://www.dragonage...ns/grey-wardens)

Sorry for singling this out, but I found this very interesting. I knew it was common knowledge that the the Blights were over, but I didn't know why. Basically what you have is information from centuries ago, from the very Wardens who fought against it, that the Blight is gone for good. You have a group of Wardens newly arrived in Ferelden (relatively, given the length of time they were banished) and with their last event of note in Ferelden one of meddling in politics. I think it's more than understandable that Loghain would be skeptical of the Wardens calling it a Blight.

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

Sorry for singling this out, but I found this very interesting. I knew it was common knowledge that the the Blights were over, but I didn't know why. Basically what you have is information from centuries ago, from the very Wardens who fought against it, that the Blight is gone for good. You have a group of Wardens newly arrived in Ferelden (relatively, given the length of time they were banished) and with their last event of note in Ferelden one of meddling in politics. I think it's more than understandable that Loghain would be skeptical of the Wardens calling it a Blight.

I won't put huge The Calling spoilers here unless someone wants to know them, but the culmination of events in that book don't exactly make it easy to trust the Wardens or the Orlesians, either.

[Monica21]

phaonica wrote...
I won't put huge The Calling spoilers here unless someone wants to know them, but the culmination of events in that book don't exactly make it easy to trust the Wardens or the Orlesians, either.

The thing I find interesting about the books and Origins is that the circumstance of the Blight is the only time Loghain's characteristic paranoia didn't serve him. Every other time he'd been right.

[phaonica]

Monica21 wrote...

phaonica wrote...
I won't put huge The Calling spoilers here unless someone wants to know them, but the culmination of events in that book don't exactly make it easy to trust the Wardens or the Orlesians, either.

The thing I find interesting about the books and Origins is that the circumstance of the Blight is the only time Loghain's characteristic paranoia didn't serve him. Every other time he'd been right.

Yeah, exactly. The Orlesians *have* plotted to retake Ferelden, and the Wardens *have* misled and withheld information from Ferelden's rulers. "Yes, but you have no proof that they are doing that *this time*" is not a good argument for trust. Loghain does not trust them, they have him various reasons to mistrust them, personally not just historically.  If anyone should understand why Loghain didn't trust the Wardens, it would be Duncan, because Duncan was right there and knows what a horrible disaster almost occured, which the Orlesians, Darkspawn, and the Wardens would have facilitated.

[Khavos]

Monica21 wrote...

Khavos wrote...
I have no idea where the Wiki gets its information, but it claims that only a "few" commoners are landholders.  My point is that the tax, by Gaider's own admission, is levied primarily to drive the elite out of power.  Power in Ferelden arises from the support of the freeholders; that's why there are Landsmeets in the first place.  If you're occupying a country, you don't leave the political class in charge of things.  For the vast majority of the populace, the new tax wouldn't have changed a thing save who they worked for. 

If that was Gaider's claim, then he's forgotten what he wrote in his own book. Freeholders are hardly elite, and I don't believe they get the invite to the Landsmeet. They're still attached to a Bann. The Bann votes for them and since there are far more Banns than Arls and Teryns that's where the political power is. Since the Orlesians were taxing freeholders, the Banns didn't really
have a reason to care who got the land unless they wanted to consider it
unjust. The point (per The Stolen Throne) was to drive out those who couldn't pay, not drive out the elite. What's the point in driving out the elite when you can just bribe the Banns to be on your side?

People can change their minds.  Why wouldn't you give out the lands to your own people?

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...


I may not have a straight up statistic, no. At least I provided some evidence that people were being abused from the commoners to the nobles. If I said that definitively more people were being abused than not, then yes, that would be incorrect. I think there is *more evidence* to support that more people were being abused than there is to support that fewer people were being abused. Is it a definite? No. But it is better supported.

Well, stating definitively that the majority of the Ferelden populace was severely abused at the hands of the Orlesians is what I took issue with.  That's a pretty wild claim, I just wanted to see if there was any support for it anywhere.

Why are we considering only commoner-landowners? Can't banns and various nobles also own land? 

They can and do.  The majority of the populace isn't landed though. 

This may be true to an extent, I will grant, because he says he will bring the nobles into line and then fight the darkspawn. But does that not also indicate that he has an intention of fighting the darkspawn once the civil war was dealt with? And on that note, does that not also mean that the banns and his opposition are not also "ignoring the Blight" to prioritize the civil war?

I don't recall him ever saying he'd fight the darkspawn until you yourself bring it up at the Landsmeet.  And yes, you could well make the argument that his opposition is ignoring the Blight as well. 

So what? They think there is such a thing as a plan that will work without the Orlesians. Loghain thinks that there is such a thing as a plan that will work without the Orlesians. Whether or not they have access to the Orlesians or not makes no difference. Loghain and Alistair and the Warden all think that it is possible for Ferelden to win the war without Orlesian support.

Not quite.  The first thing my Warden asked after Ostagar was if it was possible to get outside assistance.  A senior Warden told him that it was impossible, and that if they went traipsing off to Orlais to look for the Wardens there, it'd take too much time.  Plus, Alistair states that the Orlesian Wardens will get curious and find out what's going on on their own.  As for the Orlesians themselves, yes, it does make quite a bit of difference whether or not they have access to them.  Two commoners (as you are at that point in the story no matter what, pretty much, exiled and declared a traitor) cannot petitition the Empress of Orlais to move troops about for them.  I'd imagine that'd be pretty well-known.  Thus, it's not even an option, and not addressed.

Yes, it could hurt to try. If you're facing a Blight and "everyone knows" that you need several nations to beat it, then a plan that involves destroying several domestic armies sounds like a really hopeless and stupid waste of life.

What could it hurt?  Alistair knows that the Orlesian Wardens won't sit idle forever.  If you leave to try to find them, he says, Ferelden will be overrun; therefore trying and failing wouldn't have any more adverse affect than not trying at all.  This is all information that he provides you with, mind, so its veracity is questionable, as he's not a strategic genius, but you're not presented with any reason to doubt him at that point in the story. 

[Monica21]

Khavos wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Khavos wrote...
I have no idea where the Wiki gets its information, but it claims that only a "few" commoners are landholders.  My point is that the tax, by Gaider's own admission, is levied primarily to drive the elite out of power.  Power in Ferelden arises from the support of the freeholders; that's why there are Landsmeets in the first place.  If you're occupying a country, you don't leave the political class in charge of things.  For the vast majority of the populace, the new tax wouldn't have changed a thing save who they worked for. 

If that was Gaider's claim, then he's forgotten what he wrote in his own book. Freeholders are hardly elite, and I don't believe they get the invite to the Landsmeet. They're still attached to a Bann. The Bann votes for them and since there are far more Banns than Arls and Teryns that's where the political power is. Since the Orlesians were taxing freeholders, the Banns didn't really
have a reason to care who got the land unless they wanted to consider it
unjust. The point (per The Stolen Throne) was to drive out those who couldn't pay, not drive out the elite. What's the point in driving out the elite when you can just bribe the Banns to be on your side?

People can change their minds.  Why wouldn't you give out the lands to your own people?

Who's mind has changed? Here's the thing, if you want to levy a tax to expand your empire and blah blah blah, you don't raise it to the point that it can't be paid. Land was not simply being given to Orlesians. It was, for all intents and purposes, stolen from the rightful owner.

I suppose if I were a crazed ruler like Meghren and hated Ferelden and wanted the culture to be more like Orlais, then sure, I wouldn't mind pulling the rug out from under some freeholders. Let's make them criminals and rape their wives while we're at it.  And what does this have to do with whether Loghain should be allowed to live or not? The Orlesian occupation was brutal and humiliating. "Hey, let's give out land to Orlesians because we're Orlesians" is not an argument.

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

Well, stating definitively that the majority of the Ferelden populace was severely abused at the hands of the Orlesians is what I took issue with.  That's a pretty wild claim, I just wanted to see if there was any support for it anywhere.

No, it wasn't definitive. But the idea that Orlesian abuse was widespread had more support than the idea that Orlesian abuse wasn't widespread. 

 The majority of the populace isn't landed though. 

But the taxes weren't the *only* abuse that people were suffering. If you consider the people being taxed off their land, the banns and nobles being forced into submission due to threats against them and their families, the villagers living in fear of the occupying soldiers, while it can't be proven that they are in the majority, they are still significant in numbers.

This may be true to an extent, I will grant, because he says he will bring the nobles into line and then fight the darkspawn. But does that not also indicate that he has an intention of fighting the darkspawn once the civil war was dealt with? And on that note, does that not also mean that the banns and his opposition are not also "ignoring the Blight" to prioritize the civil war?

I don't recall him ever saying he'd fight the darkspawn until you yourself bring it up at the Landsmeet.  And yes, you could well make the argument that his opposition is ignoring the Blight as well. 

Well he absolutely does say that he will bring the nobles into line and then fight the darkspawn. He is not prioritizing them, but he is not ignoring them either.

What could it hurt?  Alistair knows that the Orlesian Wardens won't sit idle forever.  If you leave to try to find them, he says, Ferelden will be overrun; therefore trying and failing wouldn't have any more adverse affect than not trying at all.  This is all information that he provides you with, mind, so its veracity is questionable, as he's not a strategic genius, but you're not presented with any reason to doubt him at that point in the story. 

Ok, I think you have convinced me in this.
My initial question was if the war was winnable without Orlesian help, why is Loghain's trying to win the war without the Orlesians unacceptable? The answer I seem to be getting from you is that Alistair and the Warden didn't believe it was winnable so much as it was their best choice and they wouldn't be making things worse by trying.

It does make me reconsider a question I had earlier, though. If not accepting Orlesian help made failure against the Blight so much more certain, was Ferelden doomed to be at Orlais' mercy from the moment that the Blight broke out there? Because  I think that an Orlesian plan to use the Blight to help them take over Ferelden would be practically a sure thing.

Modifié par phaonica, 15 août 2010 - 08:38 .

[FiliusMartis]

In all fairness, it's hard to tell what Orlais was going to do. Saying Empress Celene is going to take over Ferelden follows the same logic as saying queen Anora is going to enslave elves to blood mages and outlaw the Grey Wardens.



The Blight will eventually start to spread over the Orlesian border, at which point the Orlesian Wardens aren't going to sit idly by and wait for the archdemon to cross the border. They're leaving well enough alone for the time because it serves their purposes. If they go into Ferelden and a bunch of Wardens get slaughtered by Loghains armies, then that is only going to make them easier for the archdemon to defeat.



Clearly, the war was winnable without Orlesian help, considering you win it. However, it was not winnable by the forces of Ferelden's noblemen alone. In order to fight the Blight, the warden recruits dwarves, elves, and mages using ancient and relatively unknown treaties. Loghain didn't know about these treaties, didn't have any guarantee or reason to believe he could recruit these armies. Even if one wants to argue that he somehow knew about them, he couldn't use them, and if he had succeeded in killing the Grey Wardens, the treaties would have become useless. Furthermore, if not for these armies, then they probably would have needed Orlais.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...


Yeah, exactly. The Orlesians *have* plotted to retake Ferelden, and the Wardens *have* misled and withheld information from Ferelden's rulers. "Yes, but you have no proof that they are doing that *this time*" is not a good argument for trust. Loghain does not trust them, they have him various reasons to mistrust them, personally not just historically.  If anyone should understand why Loghain didn't trust the Wardens, it would be Duncan, because Duncan was right there and knows what a horrible disaster almost occured, which the Orlesians, Darkspawn, and the Wardens would have facilitated.

Indeed. However, the problem I have with Logain is his refusal to learn. He dismisses the claim there is a blight - this is understandable at first. But he continues to do so after Ostagar, even after Lothering is overrun and the Darkspawn are spread over half of Ferelden. And this, imo, is just stupid.


Btw, there is just a new thought coming to my mind: I think Loghain´s statements and strategies don´t fit. If he truly thinks there is no blight, then why does he think Ostagar is an unwinnable battle? Loghain thinks Cailan foolish - this is understandable from the Warden´s perspective, as Cailan doesn´t take the Blight seriously. But why does Loghain consider Cailan´s plan foolish and wants to retreat? If there truly was no Blight Cailan would have been right to defeat them at Ostagar, and a good general like Loghain should know this.

[Dean_the_Young]

The only Warden Treaty ally not really obliged by matter of survival to help would have been the dwarves... who we do know Loghain was approaching them as well. About all your treaties with them were good for was getting in the front door: to get your army, it wasn't a 'we will abide' as much as 'army for throne'.



The Dalish stood just as much to lose if they didn't fight, so to say they wouldn't have fought with Ferelden without the Warden Treaty is iffy at best, and the mages were already helping fight the Blight under the throne's authority at Ostagar, and Loghain had an ally in the Circle he had every reason to believe could persuade the Tower to rally to his side.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tirigon wrote...

phaonica wrote...


Yeah, exactly. The Orlesians *have* plotted to retake Ferelden, and the Wardens *have* misled and withheld information from Ferelden's rulers. "Yes, but you have no proof that they are doing that *this time*" is not a good argument for trust. Loghain does not trust them, they have him various reasons to mistrust them, personally not just historically.  If anyone should understand why Loghain didn't trust the Wardens, it would be Duncan, because Duncan was right there and knows what a horrible disaster almost occured, which the Orlesians, Darkspawn, and the Wardens would have facilitated.

Indeed. However, the problem I have with Logain is his refusal to learn. He dismisses the claim there is a blight - this is understandable at first. But he continues to do so after Ostagar, even after Lothering is overrun and the Darkspawn are spread over half of Ferelden. And this, imo, is just stupid.


Btw, there is just a new thought coming to my mind: I think Loghain´s statements and strategies don´t fit. If he truly thinks there is no blight, then why does he think Ostagar is an unwinnable battle? Loghain thinks Cailan foolish - this is understandable from the Warden´s perspective, as Cailan doesn´t take the Blight seriously. But why does Loghain consider Cailan´s plan foolish and wants to retreat? If there truly was no Blight Cailan would have been right to defeat them at Ostagar, and a good general like Loghain should know this.

Why does there have to be a Blight, as opposed to just a really large hoard of darkspawn, for Ostagar to be an unwinnable battle? The battle doesn't become winnable or not simply because there's an ArchDemon in the background. It's a wise battle or not because of other factors: Blight or no, the darkspawn numbers were larger regardless, and the battle could be lost (was lost) regardless without the presence of any ArchDemon.

Loghain considers Cailan foolish because Cailan is risking himself personally for glory and no good reason. Loghain could well have been making the same suggestions as Duncan was: at least rally more domestic forces, rather than, say, leaving Eamon's forces and others behind. That the best time to fight was not yet, and not with the King so exposed.

[Tirigon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That the best time to fight was not yet, and not with the King so exposed.

But when fighting darkspawn, NOW is always a better time than LATER, because later their numbers will be even greater due to their rapid procreation.