1092 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Tirigon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That the best time to fight was not yet, and not with the King so exposed.

But when fighting darkspawn, NOW is always a better time than LATER, because later their numbers will be even greater due to their rapid procreation.

Which no one knows anything about but the Wardens, and even Duncan suggested calling for Eamon's troops.

Modifié par Monica21, 15 août 2010 - 02:03 .

[Tirigon]

Monica21 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

But when fighting darkspawn, NOW is always a better time than LATER, because later their numbers will be even greater due to their rapid procreation.

Which no one knows anything about but the Wardens, and even Duncan suggested calling for Eamon's troops.

Yea, Duncan had the wrong idea. I think it´s because they live in a medieval world, they never played StarCraft2 and never fought Zerg. Otherwise they would know that you need to rush before they can become too many to kill.

[Wompoo]

I agree Loghain should die, staked over an ants mound, what he gets is to quick. I also think being a Warden is a punishment: slow death or ritual suicide. The games story revolving around the Blight and in particular the crappy way in which it ends left a bitter taste in my mouth. At no point in that game does my Avatar feel central to the plot or heroic (unless you use some vivid imagination). I also cannot stand the excessive use of Maker this Maker that... it makes me cry. Adding Loghain was a soft pathetic add in. God I hope DA2 makes my avatar feel more like a heroic centre piece to the story... rather then being part of a collection of small ebooks revolving around annoying companions and NWN style zones like an old shooter hub.

[CalJones]

I guess you didn't like the game then, huh.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tirigon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That the best time to fight was not yet, and not with the King so exposed.

But when fighting darkspawn, NOW is always a better time than LATER, because later their numbers will be even greater due to their rapid procreation.

Procreation no one really knows about at this time, but that's beside the point.

The first rule of victorious armies is to not fight battles they don't think they can win. People who toss aside their armies when they aren't ready to fight, and aren't prepared to deal if they lose, soon don't have armies to fight with at all. Darkspawn can grow... but so can the Ferelden armies, and prepare defenses that make the Darkspawn numbers matter less. Losing the army in a gambit to stop the Darkspawn now when you aren't prepared enough can have disastrous consequences... as was promptly demonstrated in the game when Loghain's concerns were proven.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tirigon wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

But when fighting darkspawn, NOW is always a better time than LATER, because later their numbers will be even greater due to their rapid procreation.

Which no one knows anything about but the Wardens, and even Duncan suggested calling for Eamon's troops.

Yea, Duncan had the wrong idea. I think it´s because they live in a medieval world, they never played StarCraft2 and never fought Zerg. Otherwise they would know that you need to rush before they can become too many to kill.

Or, perhaps, Duncan and Loghain understand the nature of military fortifications, the advantages of defense, and not voluntarily attacking with a force unsure to win better than you.

Just a thought.

[Tirigon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or, perhaps, Duncan and Loghain understand the nature of military fortifications, the advantages of defense, and not voluntarily attacking with a force unsure to win better than you.

Just a thought.

Not at all. They charged OUT OF the fortifications into the open field. Didn´t you watch the cinematic showing the battle at Ostagar?

Actually it made me laugh. It was so ridiculously stupid...

[Tirigon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The first rule of victorious armies is to not fight battles they don't think they can win. People who toss aside their armies when they aren't ready to fight, and aren't prepared to deal if they lose, soon don't have armies to fight with at all. Darkspawn can grow... but so can the Ferelden armies, and prepare defenses that make the Darkspawn numbers matter less. Losing the army in a gambit to stop the Darkspawn now when you aren't prepared enough can have disastrous consequences... as was promptly demonstrated in the game when Loghain's concerns were proven.

Weeeeeeelll


They had like 3 or 4 weeks preparation at Ostagar, maybe even more, and won many battles already. If they aren´t prepared yet they´ll never be.

Actually, the last battle in Denerim was much more rushed and unprepared than the one at Ostagar.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tirigon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or, perhaps, Duncan and Loghain understand the nature of military fortifications, the advantages of defense, and not voluntarily attacking with a force unsure to win better than you.

Just a thought.

Not at all. They charged OUT OF the fortifications into the open field. Didn´t you watch the cinematic showing the battle at Ostagar?

Actually it made me laugh. It was so ridiculously stupid...

Attacking was also part of their planned pincer, if you remember. One faction led by the King presented itself, the other was to be the hammer to the anvil at the signal... which was delayed by the darkspawn breaking into the tower. But it's actually hard to hold an enemy in position from behind fortifications, which explains Cailen's partial advance.

But that exact battle plan was what Loghain had been arguing against: either Cailen could have listened to his general and not been with the diversionary force, simply defended instead while reinforcements came from the North, or even done both. But Cailan forced it to be then: the battle plan was the best of a bad hand forced by the King, despite Loghain's and Duncan's advice to the contrary.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tirigon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


The first rule of victorious armies is to not fight battles they don't think they can win. People who toss aside their armies when they aren't ready to fight, and aren't prepared to deal if they lose, soon don't have armies to fight with at all. Darkspawn can grow... but so can the Ferelden armies, and prepare defenses that make the Darkspawn numbers matter less. Losing the army in a gambit to stop the Darkspawn now when you aren't prepared enough can have disastrous consequences... as was promptly demonstrated in the game when Loghain's concerns were proven.

Weeeeeeelll


They had like 3 or 4 weeks preparation at Ostagar, maybe even more, and won many battles already. If they aren´t prepared yet they´ll never be.

Defenses can always be improved and strengthened. There is no 'done' point.

Since Cailen deliberatly left the forces of Redcliffe behind and refused their repeated offers to quickly arrive, there obviously was preparations that could have been done as well that weren't.

Actually, the last battle in Denerim was much more rushed and unprepared than the one at Ostagar.

Denerim was a forced battle with a forced number of troops available. Ostagar was a battle of choice by a king who chose not to take all the easily available forces he could.

[Tirigon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Since Cailen deliberatly left the forces of Redcliffe behind and refused their repeated offers to quickly arrive, there obviously was preparations that could have been done as well that weren't.

Funnily, it is true. But you can´t blame Cailan for not waiting. When Loghain suggests it Cailan answers: "Maybe we should wait for the Orlaisians after all"  and then, Loghain doesn´t want it. We have a case of 2 penisheads  trying hard to beat the other in terms of stupidity.

Modifié par Tirigon, 15 août 2010 - 05:16 .

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Since Cailen deliberatly left the forces of Redcliffe behind and refused their repeated offers to quickly arrive, there obviously was preparations that could have been done as well that weren't.

Funnily, it is true. But you can´t blame Cailan for not waiting. When Loghain suggests it Cailan answers: "Maybe we should wait for the Orlaisians after all"  and then, Loghain doesn´t want it. We have a case of 2 penisheads  trying hard to beat the other in terms of stupidity.

Redcliffe forces would have arrived before the Orlesians who weren't even in the country. Also, I can't believe that Cailan meant waiting for the Orlesians as a real suggestion. I'm sure he didn't get how deep Loghain's issues with them were but since Loghain was advocating waiting for reinforcements Cailan didn't want and he responded with 'Fine, let's wait for the Orlesians' he was likely just trying to get Loghain to drop it. Loghain didn't have the power to force Cailan to wait for reinforcements but if Cailan were really dead-set on letting the Orlesians show up before he fought than he would have.

[phaonica]

FiliusMartis wrote...
In all fairness, it's hard to tell what Orlais was going to do. Saying Empress Celene is going to take over Ferelden follows the same logic as saying queen Anora is going to enslave elves to blood mages and outlaw the Grey Wardens.

You're saying that you can't claim that Empress Celene wants to conquer Ferelden and follow in the previous Emperor's footsteps any more than you can claim that Anora wants to follow in her father's leadership footsteps. While I disagree with it, some people damn Anora for the potential to do exactly that, that since she is too much like her father, they don't trust her and they don't want her to lead Ferelden.

However, the Orlesian who was on the throne in Ferelden during the occupation was not the emperor. The Orlesians all over Ferelden under the command of the king during the occupation were not the emperor, and the Orlesian mages who conspired with the darkspawn in the Calling were not the emperor, either. The Emperor was not the only Orlesian with ideas that Ferelden should be conquered. Celene herself may not have shown any outward signs against Ferelden, but she'd not be following *just* the previous Emperor's footsteps as much as previously-supported mentality of a significant number of influential Orlesians who may still be around and may still have that mentality.

Clearly, the war was winnable without Orlesian help, considering you win it.

Only in hindsight. 

If you're going to claim it was "clearly" winnable without the Orlesians, then I think that it was completely acceptable for Loghain to attempt to win the war without them. Sometimes you *do* take the harder path, the one that might lead to the loss of more lives, because the easier path is for some reason unacceptable (perhaps for reasons of honor, or choosing freedom over safety.)
 

However, it was not winnable by the forces of Ferelden's noblemen alone. In order to fight the Blight, the warden recruits dwarves, elves, and mages using ancient and relatively unknown treaties. Loghain didn't know about these treaties, didn't have any guarantee or reason to believe he could recruit these armies. Even if one wants to argue that he somehow knew about them, he couldn't use them, and if he had succeeded in killing the Grey Wardens, the treaties would have become useless. Furthermore, if not for these armies, then they probably would have needed Orlais."

It is true that having the treaties makes recruiting these armies easier, but the Blight is as threatening to the Dalish in Ferelden, the Mages in Ferelden, the Templars in Ferelden, and the Chantry in Ferelden, even the Chasind and whatever remains of the Avvars. They were all threatened by the Blight, and I don't think it should have required any treaties to convince them to help fight.

Modifié par phaonica, 15 août 2010 - 08:34 .

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Redcliffe forces would have arrived before the Orlesians who weren't even in the country. Also, I can't believe that Cailan meant waiting for the Orlesians as a real suggestion. I'm sure he didn't get how deep Loghain's issues with them were but since Loghain was advocating waiting for reinforcements Cailan didn't want and he responded with 'Fine, let's wait for the Orlesians' he was likely just trying to get Loghain to drop it. Loghain didn't have the power to force Cailan to wait for reinforcements but if Cailan were really dead-set on letting the Orlesians show up before he fought than he would have.

Do you think Cailan was just bluffing? That if Loghain had decided to call his bluff (by refusing to engage his armies in the battle), that Cailan actually would have backed down and told the Orlesians to hold back?

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Redcliffe forces would have arrived before the Orlesians who weren't even in the country. Also, I can't believe that Cailan meant waiting for the Orlesians as a real suggestion. I'm sure he didn't get how deep Loghain's issues with them were but since Loghain was advocating waiting for reinforcements Cailan didn't want and he responded with 'Fine, let's wait for the Orlesians' he was likely just trying to get Loghain to drop it. Loghain didn't have the power to force Cailan to wait for reinforcements but if Cailan were really dead-set on letting the Orlesians show up before he fought than he would have.

Do you think Cailan was just bluffing? That if Loghain had decided to call his bluff (by refusing to engage his armies in the battle), that Cailan actually would have backed down and told the Orlesians to hold back?

What do you mean? I never said anything about Cailan bluffing. I just think he didn't want to wait for reinforcements (which he said) and so he brought up the Orlesians as the reinforcements he'd wait for as he knew Loghain would never agree. If Loghain did agree to wait for him I don't know what Cailan would have done (I guess that could be calling his bluff) but since this is Loghain we're talking about he wasn't about to agree so easily. If Loghain had refused to fight then that would have just made the Orlesian presence actually necessary.

[CalJones]

I got the impression that Cailan was just pushing Loghain's buttons with that comment. I have to admit I found Cailan to be a massive dick in that scene - I can't blame Loggy for leaving him high and dry after that. Heh.

[FiliusMartis]

If you're going to claim it was "clearly" winnable without the Orlesians, then I think that it was completely acceptable for Loghain to attempt to win the war without them

I was clearly speaking with hindsight, I never said I wasn't.  It may have been winnable without the Orlesians, but it was not winnable without some sort of reinforcements, which you obtain via Grey Warden Treaties. You recruit anywhere from three to five armies, depending on your choices.

- Arl Eamon's army: This one is not dependent upon treaties; however, Loghain's preemptive poisoning of Eamon would have rendered this an inviable option. Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar, presumably shortly after sending a message with Duncan. If Cailan had decided to send for them, they would not have come, and it's likely Loghain knew this as he never advocates waiting for them, even though they are Ferelden. Without the Warden's interference, Redcliffe would have been wiped out, as would the majority of its knights.

- The Dalish Clan: The only reason Zathrian even talks to you is because you're holding those treaties. He admits that he was planning on moving his clan north; he's not planning to fight the Blight. He intends to leave. Without the Warden's interference, the clan would die. No Dalish for you. Now while Loghain can't know what's going on, he also can't know where any Dalish are. It's a pretty well established fact that the Dalish are not keen on humans, so Loghain has no reason to believe he can recruit any to help him.

- Dwarves: Loghain tries to go to the dwarves, but he can't get through the front door. The only thing that gets you in is those treaties. I'll leave this one since Loghain thought he could get it. However, I doubt he would have gotten golems.

- Mages/Templars: These were loyal to the crown. No argument.

So at the moment of Ostagar, Loghain had the option of recruiting one additional army than what his forces at Ostagar were, the dwarves. He could have gathered more mages, but they had already answered the call. One and a half armies then? The only thing that obligates these armies to help is the Grey Warden Treaties... that's their point. Loghain had no guarantees on any other armies. Maybe he could have gotten them, but maybe not. Hefty gamble, I say.

On Anora... the logic I was presenting is that since the ruler that came before did X, subsequent rulers must also intend to do X. The logic doesn't exactly work; different rulers do different things; policies change, laws are made, alliances are formed and destroyed. I'm not saying Celene wouldn't have done anything, only that it's not certain as people are claiming.

I think Cailan would have waited for the Orlesians, if only because they were Grey Wardens and that part of his dream was uniting countries during the Blight. I don't think he's out of line in that scene. It's important to remember that Loghain has been throwing his weight around and bullying Cailan into doing what he wants for a long time. Cailan is king; it's his call.

My gods this is long. DX

Modifié par FiliusMartis, 15 août 2010 - 11:24 .

[Sarah1281]

- Dwarves: Loghain tries to go to the dwarves, but he can't get through the front door. The only thing that gets you in is those treaties. I'll leave this one since Loghain thought he could get it. However, I doubt he would have gotten golems.

That was an issue of timing. Orzammar was closed down after Endrin died (which was three weeks before you show up) and until Harrowmont or Bhelen is crowned. Had people tried to reach the dwarves before Endrin passed (which is about a year post-Ostagar) they would have had no problems getting in although whether or not they would have received any help without the treaties is debatable.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Redcliffe forces would have arrived before the Orlesians who weren't even in the country. Also, I can't believe that Cailan meant waiting for the Orlesians as a real suggestion. I'm sure he didn't get how deep Loghain's issues with them were but since Loghain was advocating waiting for reinforcements Cailan didn't want and he responded with 'Fine, let's wait for the Orlesians' he was likely just trying to get Loghain to drop it. Loghain didn't have the power to force Cailan to wait for reinforcements but if Cailan were really dead-set on letting the Orlesians show up before he fought than he would have.

Do you think Cailan was just bluffing? That if Loghain had decided to call his bluff (by refusing to engage his armies in the battle), that Cailan actually would have backed down and told the Orlesians to hold back?

What do you mean? I never said anything about Cailan bluffing. I just think he didn't want to wait for reinforcements (which he said) and so he brought up the Orlesians as the reinforcements he'd wait for as he knew Loghain would never agree. If Loghain did agree to wait for him I don't know what Cailan would have done (I guess that could be calling his bluff) but since this is Loghain we're talking about he wasn't about to agree so easily. If Loghain had refused to fight then that would have just made the Orlesian presence actually necessary.

Okay, so Cailan did have every intention of bringing in the Orlesians, he was just bringing it up as a reminder/threat to push Loghain's buttons and make him shut up?

It was if Cailan was saying, "Okay, Loghain, I agree to wait for the Redcliffe reinforcements. I agree to wait for the *Orlesian* reinforcments while we're at it, too."

Ultimately threatening that if he was going to be forced to wait for reinforcements, Loghain was going to be forced to deal with the Orlesians.

To me, that just makes Cailan look like a bigger idiot than ever, and a major @sshole besides.

[FiliusMartis]

And I said, in your quote even, that Loghain could have gotten it. The only point I was making there is that the Grey Warden Treaties hold significant weight. That's all.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think it makes him look THAT bad. Not waiting for reinforcements? In general a bad idea but maybe Cailan didn't think they had time before the darkspawn attacked. Either way, he had already decided that there were to be no reinforcements. As such his 'Well, if you insist we can wait for the Orlesians' was to just get Loghain to shut up about waiting for reinforcements. Was having no reinforcements a good move? Unlikely. Was Cailan using the idea of the Orlesians to get Loghain off of the subject really a dick move? I don't really think so.

[FiliusMartis]

Doesn't Cailan bring up waiting for reinforcements to Loghain's protests against him being on the front lines? Loghain doesn't come back with no, why don't we just wait for Redcliffe, probably because he knows better.

[phaonica]

FiliusMartis wrote...

So at the moment of Ostagar, Loghain had the option of recruiting one additional army than what his forces at Ostagar were, the dwarves. He could have gathered more mages, but they had already answered the call. One and a half armies then? The only thing that obligates these armies to help is the Grey Warden Treaties... that's their point. Loghain had no guarantees on any other armies. Maybe he could have gotten them, but maybe not. Hefty gamble, I say.

But knowing that he doesn't actually have access to these armies is in hindsight.
At the moment of Ostagar, he thinks the dwarves might help him, dwarves have come to the surface to help him and Maric in the past. He doesn't know they're at civil war. He thinks the Dalish might help him, they too helped him and Maric fight on Ferelden's side in the past. He doesn't know they're having werewolf problems. I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere that he has Eamon's antidote. Without Alistair around with which to challenge Loghain at the Landsmeet, Eamon would have less reason to war against Loghain. Loghain doesn't know about the demon. He also thought he had an allies in the Circle Tower. This turned into an unexpected disaster too. 

I'm not arguing that the treaties don't make it easier. I'm only arguing that at the moment of Ostagar, the idea of appealing to these groups was not hopeless just because he didn't have the treaties.

On Anora... the logic I was presenting is that since the ruler that came before did X, subsequent rulers must also intend to do X. The logic doesn't exactly work; different rulers do different things; policies change, laws are made, alliances are formed and destroyed. I'm not saying Celene wouldn't have done anything, only that it's not certain as people are claiming.

No it's not certain that she would. The only thing we really know about her is that it is rumored that she is intelligent, and it is rumored that she assassinated her way to the throne. Even though it is a rumor, it is the only thing we have heard about her, and I'm certainly not inclined to believe that someone who assassinates their way to the throne is somone who has good an honorable tendencies. I don't think it's wise to be too paranoid, but I don't think it's wise to utterly discard a rumor, either.

 It's important to remember that Loghain has been throwing his weight around and bullying Cailan into doing what he wants for a long time.

What do you see that is bullying? 

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think it makes him look THAT bad. Not waiting for reinforcements? In general a bad idea but maybe Cailan didn't think they had time before the darkspawn attacked. Either way, he had already decided that there were to be no reinforcements. As such his 'Well, if you insist we can wait for the Orlesians' was to just get Loghain to shut up about waiting for reinforcements. Was having no reinforcements a good move? Unlikely. Was Cailan using the idea of the Orlesians to get Loghain off of the subject really a dick move? I don't really think so.

The not waiting for reinforcments... so be it. Waiting for reinforcements would probably necessitate pulling back from Ostagar because the darkspawn are the attackers and they aren't going to wait. I don't think it's wise to decide against the advice of your experienced war general, but whatever.

But if Cailan was pushing Loghain's buttons, knowing why Loghain takes conflict with the Orlesians so personally (whether he should or not), I think it's a jerk thing to do.

[Tirigon]

CalJones wrote...

I got the impression that Cailan was just pushing Loghain's buttons with that comment. I have to admit I found Cailan to be a massive dick in that scene - I can't blame Loggy for leaving him high and dry after that. Heh.

Well, noone in his right mind can argue that Cailan doesn´t think with his backside and has his heads in the clouds (until the darkspawn relocate it onto a pike:devil::devil:). However, Loghain doesn´t seem any more reasonable, even more if you don´t know the entire game yet but only consider what they can know already. After all, they won many times already.