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[Sarah1281]

But what would you have rather happened to your mage or CE? Aeonar and death? It's not like Duncan puts you in that situation but is eternal imprisonment at a place that drives mages craze or public execution REALLY a better option than being a GW?

[Aurelet]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Only Fergus needs to be out of the way. Cailan just needs to not know that Howe was responsible for the Cousland massacare which he doesn't learn unless you're the HN Howe never expected to escape. If Ostagar hadn't turned into a massacre or Fergus was found alive earllier he'd need to be secretly assassinated (and Howe has ties to the Crows and is unafraid to use them) and then everything's done. Howe doesn't get Highever because he specifically murdered the Couslands, he gets it because the Couslands are all dead and the Howes are the second-most powerful family in the area. If Howe came up with some BS story about how he received word after Fergus left that his men had more difficulties and went there to check it out and then decided to go to Ostagar on their own (but missed the battle) or it took longer than they thought to clear up the problems and get the troops moving again and wasn't the one to report that the Couslands were dead then no one would be looking to him for an explanation.

That would have to be Fergus and the Entire Army he brought with him.  They all saw Howe at Cousland Castle

[Sarah1281]

Aurelet wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Only Fergus needs to be out of the way. Cailan just needs to not know that Howe was responsible for the Cousland massacare which he doesn't learn unless you're the HN Howe never expected to escape. If Ostagar hadn't turned into a massacre or Fergus was found alive earllier he'd need to be secretly assassinated (and Howe has ties to the Crows and is unafraid to use them) and then everything's done. Howe doesn't get Highever because he specifically murdered the Couslands, he gets it because the Couslands are all dead and the Howes are the second-most powerful family in the area. If Howe came up with some BS story about how he received word after Fergus left that his men had more difficulties and went there to check it out and then decided to go to Ostagar on their own (but missed the battle) or it took longer than they thought to clear up the problems and get the troops moving again and wasn't the one to report that the Couslands were dead then no one would be looking to him for an explanation.

That would have to be Fergus and the Entire Army he brought with him.  They all saw Howe at Cousland Castle

But the entire army wouldn't need to be killed, just Fergus so he can't be the Teyrn. Howe just needs an explanation for why he left the castle after the army did (getting a message that the state of his troops was worse than he thought and he needed to personally go deal with it, for example) and then he can simply not know anything about the attack.

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 But the entire army wouldn't need to be killed, just Fergus so he can't be the Teyrn. Howe just needs an explanation for why he left the castle after the army did (getting a message that the state of his troops was worse than he thought and he needed to personally go deal with it, for example) and then he can simply not know anything about the attack.

To me that sounds a little far fetched and it'd take someone phenomenally gullible to fall for it. So yeah Caillan would probably have bought it and Loghain and Anora wouldn't have cared enough to look into it. 

What's so far-fetched about it? The Couslands are discovered dead, if Fergus hasn't been killed yet he demands to know wha happened from Howe, Howe explains that the forces Fergus already knew were delayed had more problems and he left shortly after Fergus did. It's a huge leap from 'Howe left for a legitimate-sounding reason' to 'a close family friend murdered everyone in the castle so that he could take over the teynir.'

[Wolverfrog]

I let Alistair duel Loghain; he needed to prove to the Landsmeet that he would be a strong King who wouldn't constantly rely on others.



Alistair didn't ask me if I wanted to spare Loghain. He just killed him. Good for him.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Haha I like how Alistair and others in Awakening just up and leave the Wardens.....like that whole tainted bloood thing wasnt a death sentance. Duncan would be ashamed, look what he did to Jory during your joining when he wanted out.

I doubt Duncan would really care. Riordan sure as hell doesn't. As long as you are a Warden if you live long enough you'll end up back in Orzammar for your Calling soon enough.

Unless, like Alistair in some endings, you go storming out of the room.

Somehow, I doubt he's running off to Orzamar when it's his time to go.

Oh, and, ummm, yea . . . . . kill Loghain. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Letting him kill the archdemon is some of the most powerful stuff in Dragon Age though.

[Giggles_Manically]

some of Howe's men were already inside, so they probably just opened the gates for the rest.

Inside job, ie Troy.

[Cat Fancy]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But what would you have rather happened to your mage or CE? Aeonar and death? It's not like Duncan puts you in that situation but is eternal imprisonment at a place that drives mages craze or public execution REALLY a better option than being a GW?

Being  Grey Warden is better than those things, but that doesn't mean I have to like the situation. Again, I just really hate that they don't tell people the risks involved in undergoing the joining, and conscripting characters in ****ty situations seems kind of opportunistic. Duncan's intentions are pure, but there's a reason the Wardens keep this stuff a secret- it makes them looks like jerks. Because they totally are. Why do characters in these situations actually have to go through the joining? And again, Duncan makes it clear that you're not a volunteer. It may be better than instant death/certain torture, but it's still not particularly endearing. I really wish you didn't have to make Anders go through the joining in Awakening in order to get him. All the other characters seem to have death wishes and you don't have to put all of them through the Joining. Oh, well.

Edit:

Last Darkness wrote...

Haha I like how Alistair and
others in Awakening just up and leave the Wardens.....like that whole
tainted bloood thing wasnt a death sentance. Duncan would be ashamed,
look what he did to Jory during your joining when he wanted out.

I thought his primary objection was that Jory would reveal Grey Warden TRADE SECRETS if he left, but he wouldn't if he survived the joining, because are immediately and permanently cool with everything. How exactly DO they keep that stuff a secret? There are really just a few  secrets and you'd think someone would have revealed them by now. Why wouldn't it be a good thing for the method to defeating an archdemon to be common knowledge (I am sure there is a reason I impatiently skipped over, as I am wont to do, or in the novels, which I don't think I should have to read but I'll get to that someday, maybe)?

Modifié par umwhatyousay, 05 août 2010 - 01:52 .

[Khavos]

umwhatyousay wrote...

Why wouldn't it be a good thing for the method to defeating an archdemon to be common knowledge (I am sure there is a reason I impatiently skipped over, as I am wont to do, or in the novels, which I don't think I should have to read but I'll get to that someday, maybe)?

Probably because it's pretty difficult to recruit people if the task you're recruiting them for is to die. 

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

umwhatyousay wrote...

Why wouldn't it be a good thing for the method to defeating an archdemon to be common knowledge (I am sure there is a reason I impatiently skipped over, as I am wont to do, or in the novels, which I don't think I should have to read but I'll get to that someday, maybe)?

Probably because it's pretty difficult to recruit people if the task you're recruiting them for is to die. 

And getting your soul destroyed sounds even worse. Not to mention that then they'd have to explain why only a GW can defeat it and that would mean announcing that GWs are all high-functioning ghouls and wouldn't that go over well.

[Khavos]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Because I am tired of the same old argument. Unless the lead writer posts something definitive, it's going in circle.

Bandits do attack keeps that have been emptied of its army.

If you can come up with any historical examples, I'd be happy to take a look at them.  I think you'll have an awfully tough time finding any, though, because it didn't happen.

Traitors can fake sending their army as an attempt to show face, while ordering them to retreat from the battle at the last moment. That happened many times throughout history, one example being Zaidi's revolt against the Umayyads.

Sure, but the flaw in that argument is that Fergus' didn't fake it, and we're led to believe actually engaged darkspawn with king's troops on at least one occasion.

The people can rebel and revolt against a keep with no army. A major reason why Bryce left you in that castle to begin with, as he said so himself. EDIT: could be revolting banns in Highever even, which Howe managed to kill, only too late.
...etc etc

I don't recall Bryce saying he was leaving you at the castle to prevent potential revolt, so I may have to play through the origin again.  I got the contrary impression, in fact, that the Couslands were a rather popular set of rulers.  Revolts generally don't come out of nowhere.

Either way, Gaider has in fact confirmed that Loghain's plans were in motion long before Ostagar, and that Howe and Loghain were in bed together for quite some time. 

[Khavos]

jln.francisco wrote...
Not necesarily. Take the Purple Heart in the US for instance. The only way to get one is to be wounded in combat and yet it's something most soldiers, Marines and sailors want because of the glory that comes with it. All it would take is a little PR on the Warden's part and targeting their efforts towards younger men with the full 30 years to look forward to.

So you think most soldiers, Marines, sailors, and airmen would "want" Purple Hearts if they were awarded for death in combat rather than being wounded in combat? 

Also, absolute, stone-cold, guaranteed death doing your job is considerably different than the high risk of it. 

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

umwhatyousay wrote...

Why wouldn't it be a good thing for the method to defeating an archdemon to be common knowledge (I am sure there is a reason I impatiently skipped over, as I am wont to do, or in the novels, which I don't think I should have to read but I'll get to that someday, maybe)?

Probably because it's pretty difficult to recruit people if the task you're recruiting them for is to die. 

IIRC becoming a golem was on a volunteer basis for a long time.

At first I thought that the Joining was a secret because it involved a type of blood magic.

[Bahlgan]

Being a Gray Warden is a Death Sentance, its not all high and noble. First you have to survive the joining, then you fight darkspawn at all times and probably die in battle. If you live for 30 years you die from the taint.

The only reason I see this as a fitting penance, assuming he lives, is because it feeds against his very ideals about the Grey Wardens; he can't stand their stories, much less envision himself becoming one, but there it is in his face. Otherwise, if he were looking for it as a free lunch from the gallows, I wouldn't give him the satisfaction.

EccentricSage wrote...

One's character might see it as reckless to waste such a resource as Loghain. Regardless of his crimes, it is more practical to subjugate him and use him in return for the redeeming of his honor. Alistair would make as poor a commander as Cailan had in a time of war, so placing him on the throne is actually also troubling. Mind you I'm not advocating Loghain... his decisions during the blight were ludicrous. But he was once a great warrior and is still useful. Alistair is a fool and a coward for running away. Wouldn't Duncan be ashamed?

Ultimately, it comes down to your character's personality and perspective as to the issue of Loghain. The choices you make in the game have greater meaning with every option you had to choose from.

Thank you! I was beginning to think you've gone rogue as a villain supporter, because let's face it: Loghain lived long enough to become a villain in the end. As I mentioned before in a previous thread, he didn't care about the Grey Wardens and refused to believe in them as a means to end the Blight.

This particularly doesn't disturb me as much as that he gave up soldiers he knew all so that he could have the throne and gather an army that, quite honestly, would have most likely torn itself apart before being united against the Blight. At least during Ostagar the units were fighting for a common cause; the Bannorn would have been asunder before the last remaining routed unites chose to fight the Blight, only to be wiped out in the end without the support of the Grey Wardens. The only one whom I can relate to with Loghain's sins is Sten, and I was more than willing to spare his life (to fight against the Darkspawn as penance) because he at least admitted he was wrong and felt bad about it. Loghain, as far as I am concerned, said he knew what he lost, but does he really? If he knew what he was going to lose, how come he volunteered becoming regent? To command an army that wouldn't have grown big enough to stop the Blight?

And getting your soul destroyed sounds even worse. Not to mention that then they'd have to explain why only a GW can defeat it and that would mean announcing that GWs are all high-functioning ghouls and wouldn't that go over well

Eh about the ghoul thing, I doubt you could really call them ghouls. The blood magic and other reagents do a well job at preventing their minds from being erased from the taint. To me that is one key factor to being labeled a ghoul. And I doubt one's soul would really be destroyed either, despite popular belief. This would have to be something a moderator or dev would have to answer, granted it wouldn't ruin spoilers for a future DA game.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 05 août 2010 - 03:15 .

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...

IIRC becoming a golem was on a volunteer basis for a long time.

At first I thought that the Joining was a secret because it involved a type of blood magic.

Becoming a golem's almost the exact opposite, though.  Assuming you don't die, you're immortal. 

[Cat Fancy]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Khavos wrote...

umwhatyousay wrote...

Why wouldn't it be a good thing for the method to defeating an archdemon to be common knowledge (I am sure there is a reason I impatiently skipped over, as I am wont to do, or in the novels, which I don't think I should have to read but I'll get to that someday, maybe)?

Probably because it's pretty difficult to recruit people if the task you're recruiting them for is to die. 

And getting your soul destroyed sounds even worse. Not to mention that then they'd have to explain why only a GW can defeat it and that would mean announcing that GWs are all high-functioning ghouls and wouldn't that go over well.

Again, I find it inexcusable that they don't warn people about these risks (SOUL DESTRUCTION). That's really not a choice you should make for someone else,* and that's why the more I find out about Duncan and the Grey Wardens, the less I like him/them. And, as others have said, people would still be willing to take these risks voluntarily.

*I'm fine making that choice for Loghain because he is a jerk this isn't a little hypocritical

Edit:

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

IIRC becoming a golem was on a volunteer basis for a long time.

At first I thought that the Joining was a secret because it involved a type of blood magic.

Becoming a golem's almost the exact opposite, though.  Assuming you don't die, you're immortal. 

And enslaveable? Not all golems were volunteers. Also, immortal life as a golem is implied to kind of suck.

Modifié par umwhatyousay, 05 août 2010 - 03:19 .

[Khavos]

jln.francisco wrote...
I do see your point though and I don't think it'd be easy but I also don't think it'd be impossible for Warden's to at least be honest about the Archdemon thing.

You don't need to be honest when you have the Right of Conscription.

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

IIRC becoming a golem was on a volunteer basis for a long time.

At first I thought that the Joining was a secret because it involved a type of blood magic.

Becoming a golem's almost the exact opposite, though.  Assuming you don't die, you're immortal. 

Do they all retain their histories and personalities and stuff? Did they become mindless or just controllable? I don't remember.