1092 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

But knowing that he doesn't actually have access to these armies is in hindsight.
At the moment of Ostagar, he thinks the dwarves might help him, dwarves have come to the surface to help him and Maric in the past. He doesn't know they're at civil war. He thinks the Dalish might help him, they too helped him and Maric fight on Ferelden's side in the past. He doesn't know they're having werewolf problems. I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere that he has Eamon's antidote. Without Alistair around with which to challenge Loghain at the Landsmeet, Eamon would have less reason to war against Loghain. Loghain doesn't know about the demon. He also thought he had an allies in the Circle Tower. This turned into an unexpected disaster too. 

Well, if Loghain had had success he could easily have won. (Well, until the Archdemon is reborn whenever they manage to get it down, because there are no Wardens available, that is...) His plan wasn´t exactly bad. It was a good move to gain power.

However, planning a perfect treason doesn´t make you any less of a traitor:police:

[FiliusMartis]

I never meant to say that appealing to those groups was hopeless, but I maintain that he had no guarantee that he could pull them in on a moment's notice. At best he would have to send an antidote to Eamon and wait for news, send scouting parties out and hope to the Maker he found some Dalish, and present a case to the dwarven assembly and hope the decide they like him that day.



At Ostagar, there is an advancing horde, and Loghain has no reinforcements nor the promise of any reinforcements other than the Orlesian forces. Furthermore, Loghain doesn't bring up any of these other armies at Ostagar. He's pretty set on going it alone, as it were. I'm not saying he had no other options; I'm saying the only group standing ready to go and pledging help were the Orlesians.



I'm not trying to dismiss the rumors about Celene, but I've seen it said in here several times that Orlais 'almost certainly' would have invaded, and I don't think that's fair. She was talking to Cailan and planning to visit Ferelden; it's possible she was ready for the fighting to be over, yes?

What do you see that is bullying?

That's just how I see it. For a long time, Loghain has been insisting that Cailan do what Loghain wants, refusing to back down until Cailan yields to Loghain's wishes. Cailan grew up around Loghain, he would likely consider the man family; I consider the way Loghain basically bosses Cailan around bullying. You're free to disagree.

[Dean_the_Young]

? Loghain and Cailan but heads continuously, given what we see and hear, and it doesn't always end with Cailan being some meek and submissive boy. It's like that guard in Ostagar says: the Teyrn has known the King since Cailan needed diapers and tells Cailan what he feel, and Cailan has enamored deference towards the Hero of the River Dane and yells right back. You have two people in power who have known eachother far too long to be impressed with titles and are blunt and honest with eachother.



If Loghain could bully Cailan along, the political crisis of Dragon Age never would have happened since Cailan would (a) not have died at Ostagar and ( pushed Cailan from his position with Orlais, which was Loghain's big beef in the first place.

[Elhanan]

Loghain made his mistake by allowing someone to make that cutscene showing his traitorous withdrawl from Ostagar. *tsk; tsk*

[Tirigon]

Elhanan wrote...

Loghain made his mistake by allowing someone to make that cutscene showing his traitorous withdrawl from Ostagar. *tsk; tsk*

Indeed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Traitorous? Seemed even more sinisterly Grey Warden-ly to me. You know, not putting one man above fighting the Darkspawn, taking the most expediant course no matter what...

[CalJones]

It's just nature for a younger man to test himself against the older, more established one. Happens in the animal kingdom and it happens with humans - practically every teenage boy tests his father's patience on a regular basis and whilst Cailan is a little older, he is still young.

Cailan, of course, no longer has a father, so Loghain is the next best thing as far as rebelling goes. He certainly seems adept at pushing Loghain's buttons, at any rate.

It also seems that he's deperately trying to live up to his father's legend by trying to become a hero in his own right, which might explain his recklessness. Maric was quite reckless himself, when Loghain wasn't keeping tabs on him. It's a recipe for disaster, all things considered.

[Elhanan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Traitorous? Seemed even more sinisterly Grey Warden-ly to me. You know, not putting one man above fighting the Darkspawn, taking the most expediant course no matter what...

Sorry; also breaks the major rule of film: Never leave your wing man....

[dan107]

Riloux wrote...
You have to choose between loyalty to Alistair and what? What does Loghain have that would make me want him?

Competence

[CalJones]

Testosterone.

[Dean_the_Young]

A proven, known, and respected ability to lead men and armies in battle.

[DragonRacer13]

CalJones wrote...

Testosterone.

Okay, I HAD to quote this because it made me LOL. For real. At work. D'oh!

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

Loghain made his mistake by allowing someone to make that cutscene showing his traitorous withdrawl from Ostagar. *tsk; tsk*

I think it's been stated enough times by the devs that the horde was much larger than anyone anticipated that we can take them at their word by now. Loghain knew that he'd either lose or win a phyrric victory. Either way, he did try to keep Cailan from the front lines and the possibility that he could have made it to Cailan in time to pull him away is extremely unlikely.

[Elhanan]

So Loghain did the logical thing, and abandoned the King as well as hope for a win? Sorry; he took the way out he needed to save his own hide, and to gain more power for himself. He may have been playing against the odds, but the Warden sorta proves that the odds are not always the best way to bet.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

So Loghain did the logical thing, and abandoned the King as well as hope for a win? Sorry; he took the way out he needed to save his own hide, and to gain more power for himself. He may have been playing against the odds, but the Warden sorta proves that the odds are not always the best way to bet.

And the fact that you manage to pull off a miracle has nothing to do with whether Loghain's troops would have been slaughtered needlessly had he chosen to charge. He obviously already thought he couldn't win (true or not) so he wasn't abandoning that hope as he never had it. And charging very likely wouldn't have saved Cailan anyway since he was on the front lines and getting really hammered by the time the beacon had lit.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 16 août 2010 - 05:46 .

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

So Loghain did the logical thing, and abandoned the King as well as hope for a win? Sorry; he took the way out he needed to save his own hide, and to gain more power for himself. He may have been playing against the odds, but the Warden sorta proves that the odds are not always the best way to bet.

Sometimes when it's war, you have to save your own hide as well as the rest of army's. Every general has a plan for retreat.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, strictly speaking that's not true. Smart generals have a plan for withdrawal if things go heads up.

[Obadiah]

I see Loghain as a ruthlessly practical man, whose confidence in his own righteousness was bolstered by his previous success and the adoration he received from King Maric and his own followers. These qualities served him well... right up until the Darkspawn massed in the Kocari wilds and he sees doom in Cailin's posturing. Loghain's initial "good" plan to get rid of Cailin (who, let's face it, seemed suicidally confident) and unite Ferelden against the Darkspawn was thwarted by the Grey Wardens' duty and need for vengeance, and Loghain's ignorance of the truth behind the only way to stop a blight. It's clear that as time moved on, he was forced to become even more ruthless and dishonorable in his attempt to save Ferelden.



At the Landsmeet, once he is defeated by the Grey Warden he seems to realize just how far he has fallen to pride. I had him executed on two play-throughs, and on the third accepted him because he had surrendered and the Riordan advised it.



I liked hearing about his history and his perspective on the Orlesians, the Warden's actions, and Cailin. Once he described the Orlesian occupation, I understood how much sense his paranoia and hate made. The banter between him and Wynne in Return to Ostagar is biting and priceless, but what he says about Cailin is really messed up (is there a way to influence that?).



In the end he was a tragic hero, and I thought his story was a well done fall from grace.

[Elhanan]

From my vantage point atop the Tower, and Alistair's who is quoted (I believe) as saying."... and the battle was nearly won!". The battle did not collapse until after the withdrawl, and folks like Duncan kept falling from severe fatigue and injuries.

Loghain is just another power hungry, myopic, tyrant that happens to have once been a friend to the Throne.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

From my vantage point atop the Tower, and Alistair's who is quoted (I believe) as saying."... and the battle was nearly won!". The battle did not collapse until after the withdrawl, and folks like Duncan kept falling from severe fatigue and injuries.
Loghain is just another power hungry, myopic, tyrant that happens to have once been a friend to the Throne.

When does Alistair say that? And considering the whole "winning" part was Loghain's flanking move, I doubt it could have been won with just Cailan's troops.

Modifié par Monica21, 16 août 2010 - 07:19 .

[Sarah1281]

Monica21 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

From my vantage point atop the Tower, and Alistair's who is quoted (I believe) as saying."... and the battle was nearly won!". The battle did not collapse until after the withdrawl, and folks like Duncan kept falling from severe fatigue and injuries.
Loghain is just another power hungry, myopic, tyrant that happens to have once been a friend to the Throne.

When does Alistair say that? And considering the whole "winning" part was Loghain's flanking move, I doubt it could have been won with just Cailan's troops.

I also don't recall him saying that and I also know that Alistair wouldn't know that. He sees how overrun the Tower is, fights his way to the top of the Tower, lights the beacon, and then is very quickly afterwards overwhelmed by darkspawn himself. He hardly had time to just stand around watching the battle and even if he had he couldn't have seen the entire field and if that's not enough you have to realize Alistair is hardly a master tactiction. How would he know?

It's like when people say 'Oh, well Wynne says that Anora and Cailan loved each other dearly and only Loghain ever came between them.' That might be true (I doubt it but it might) but why would someone like Wynne who has likely never met any of the three before getting to Denerim for the Landsmeet be lauded as an expert? Just because a character says something and might even believe it doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. They might just be repeating what they've heard, they might be biased, they might be lying, they might have no idea what they're talking about.

Loghain who retreated says Ostagar couldn't be won, Cailan's honor guard who deserted said that Cailan didn't believe Ostagar could be won, Cailan said it probably wasn't a Blight and they could win right there, Wynne said Cailan and Anora were a great couple with lots of love, Anora said Cailan chronically cheated on her, Loghain said Cailan was planning on dumping Anora for Celene, Eamon said Anora was barren...these people all have a bias and they all have an agenda. We can't blindly accept their word for it anymore than we can accept Alistair's belief that Ostagar could be won.

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

From my vantage point atop the Tower, and Alistair's who is quoted (I believe) as saying."... and the battle was nearly won!". The battle did not collapse until after the withdrawl, and folks like Duncan kept falling from severe fatigue and injuries.
Loghain is just another power hungry, myopic, tyrant that happens to have once been a friend to the Throne.

When does Alistair say that? And considering the whole "winning" part was Loghain's flanking move, I doubt it could have been won with just Cailan's troops.

I also don't recall him saying that and I also know that Alistair wouldn't know that. He sees how overrun the Tower is, fights his way to the top of the Tower, lights the beacon, and then is very quickly afterwards overwhelmed by darkspawn himself. He hardly had time to just stand around watching the battle and even if he had he couldn't have seen the entire field and if that's not enough you have to realize Alistair is hardly a master tactiction. How would he know?

It's like when people say 'Oh, well Wynne says that Anora and Cailan loved each other dearly and only Loghain ever came between them.' That might be true (I doubt it but it might) but why would someone like Wynne who has likely never met any of the three before getting to Denerim for the Landsmeet be lauded as an expert? Just because a character says something and might even believe it doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. They might just be repeating what they've heard, they might be biased, they might be lying, they might have no idea what they're talking about.

Loghain who retreated says Ostagar couldn't be won, Cailan's honor guard who deserted said that Cailan didn't believe Ostagar could be won, Cailan said it probably wasn't a Blight and they could win right there, Wynne said Cailan and Anora were a great couple with lots of love, Anora said Cailan chronically cheated on her, Loghain said Cailan was planning on dumping Anora for Celene, Eamon said Anora was barren...these people all have a bias and they all have an agenda. We can't blindly accept their word for it anymore than we can accept Alistair's belief that Ostagar could be won.

Quoting because I just really really like this post.

[MKDAWUSS]

One thing to notice is when you're crossing the bridge at Ostagar to just stop and notice how far deep the darkspawn march goes. That shows a massive army right there.

[Elhanan]

I believe it is in the dialogue with Flemeth (and perhaps Morrigan) just after escaping the Tower.

Correct; might not be true, but it is just as likely that it is. Loghain said that it was not a true Blight; no Warden was needed. This works both ways. Where Alistair might simply be incorrect, Loghain is ignorant of the facts.

Loghain is a deep, rich character. He is also a traitorous regicidal sack of cabbage: cole-slaughter!

[Sarah1281]

I've just looked through that conversation at the hut and while Alistair does say a lot about thinking that Loghain should be executed for betraying Cailan and how he probably wants the throne as he's Anora's father, he doesn't appear to say anything about how they almost won.

And why in the world is 'they almost won at Ostagar' - which I can't find Ailstair saying and have never heard him say so might not even be in the game - just as likely to be true as not? Loghain's belief or lack thereof about the Blight has nothing to do with winning at Ostagar. If there was a Blight, the lack of an Archdemon means that they can't stop it there.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 16 août 2010 - 08:25 .