1092 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

something akin to this -

Flemeth: So you are prepared to be Grey Wardens then? Or has this changed while I wasn't looking?

Warden: Of course not!

Alistair: But we were fighting the Darkspawn! The King had nearly defeated them! Why would he do this?



Loghain allowed nearly all the Wardens to die, and tried to have any surving ones murdered. I suppose this was also for some noble, logical, and higher cause unknown to the rest of us. Nope! Just another really poor choice by another ignorant tyrant, for if he had succeeded, no stopping the Blight from consuming Ferelden.

Only difference between Loghain and Howe is motive.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

something akin to this -
Flemeth: So you are prepared to be Grey Wardens then? Or has this changed while I wasn't looking?
Warden: Of course not!
Alistair: But we were fighting the Darkspawn! The King had nearly defeated them! Why would he do this?

Loghain allowed nearly all the Wardens to die, and tried to have any surving ones murdered. I suppose this was also for some noble, logical, and higher cause unknown to the rest of us. Nope! Just another really poor choice by another ignorant tyrant, for if he had succeeded, no stopping the Blight from consuming Ferelden.
Only difference between Loghain and Howe is motive.

You mean this? 

Alistair: We need to bring Loghain to judgment! Why would he do this?
Flemeth: Now <emp>that</emp> is a good question. Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature. Perhaps he believes the Blight is an army he can outmaneuver. Perhaps he does not see that the evil behind it is the true threat.
Alistair: The Archdemon.

PC: What could the teyrn hope to gain by betraying the king?
Alistair: The throne? He's the queen's father. Still, I can't see how he'll get away with murder.
Flemeth: You speak as if he would be the first king to gain his throne that way. Grow up, boy!
Alistair: If Arl Eamon knew what he did, he would never stand for it! The Landsmeet would never stand for it! There would be civil war!

Alistair: Well... whatever Loghain's insanity, he obviously thinks the darkspawn are a minor threat. We must warn everyone this isn't the case.
Flemeth: And who will believe you? Unless you think to convince this Loghain of his mistake?
Alistair: He just betrayed his own king! If Arl Eamon knew what he did at Ostagar, he would be the first to call for his execution!

Still nothing about Cailan almost winning.

[Elhanan]

Wrong options. Have the Warden ask Flemeth,"So why did you save us?". She then gives her answer about not having all the Wardens being killed, and informs us of our supposed duty.

[phaonica]

Here I found it :

PC: So why <emp>did</emp> you save us?
Flemeth: Well, we cannot have all the Grey Wardens dying at once, can we? Someone has to deal with these darkspawn.
Flemeth: It has always been the Grey Wardens' duty to unite the lands against the Blight. Or did that change when I wasn't looking?
Alistair: But we were fighting the darkspawn! The king had nearly defeated them! Why would Loghain do this
(pre210_flemeth)

Though I agree with what Sarah said before. Alistair is hardly a master tactician, nor a war-seasoned general. I get the distinct impression that he was just parroting Cailan (due to how he says the *king* had nearly defeated them, which gives Cailan quite a lot of the credit).

[Elhanan]

That is your take and opinion. I however do not have such deep extrasensory insight into my fellow Warden, just that he has proven time and again that he is trustworthy, and can be believed. Loghain has only proven repeatedly that he is not worthy of trust, nor is his word of any value. General, hero, or father, he simple fails at all in epic fashion.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

That is your take and opinion. I however do not have such deep extrasensory insight into my fellow Warden, just that he has proven time and again that he is trustworthy, and can be believed. Loghain has only proven repeatedly that he is not worthy of trust, nor is his word of any value. General, hero, or father, he simple fails at all in epic fashion.

And so a trustworthy person automatically has to be right all the time? He also tells you that there's no way he'd be considered to be King once you learn he's Maric's son and look how accurate that turns out to be. Is he lying? No. Is he wrong? Yes. The same is true here, imo. He doesn't have to be untrustworthy to not have any idea what he's talking about as far as the battle goes. In fact, I think his 'the King almost won' sounds more like a 'the King won the last few skirmishes and yet Loghain left and we lost here. Cailan could have beaten them!' kind of statement than him having any real reason to believe that, true or false thought the statement may be.

[Elhanan]

Nope. Nobody I know is right all the time; not even me. Thought I was wrong once; wasn't.... *Bazinga*

My point is that between the two witnessed accounts, Alistair has proven repeatedly that he is more reliable. Even at his emotional tirade at the Landsmeet, his account against Loghain is spot on and accurate. Loghain's worst case against him is his own recorded actions, and the witnesses of those said actions, be it friend or foe. Speak to Ser Cauthrian at the Landsmeet sometime to get another view of Loghain.

FWIW, I have let him live a few times. But then, I let Sten live, too. Well, except for my Human Noble Wardens that cannot get past the face of their own dead nephew.

[Sarah1281]

But Alistair's vantage point is from the top of a tower and he has no time to observe the battle anyway. His account can't really be trusted since he doesn't have enough information to know one way or another.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But Alistair's vantage point is from the top of a tower and he has no time to observe the battle anyway. His account can't really be trusted since he doesn't have enough information to know one way or another.

Possibly. Or that our tactical advange from the Tower, as well as the bridge allowed us to see things even more clearly than someone below, eyes full of soot, dust, and hate for an enemy not even present.

And while not the best witnesses, our view as Wardens seem to be supported by both Flemeth and Morrigan.

Modifié par Elhanan, 16 août 2010 - 10:19 .

[phaonica]

Elhanan wrote...

My point is that between the two witnessed accounts, Alistair has proven repeatedly that he is more reliable. ..
Or that our tactical advange from the Tower, as well as the bridge allowed us to see things even more clearly than someone below,

More reliable in positioning armies, accessing a battlefield and executing a strategy based on the dynamic environment on the field?

Just because You Can Trust Alistair, and even if he did have a good vantage point, it doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about.

And while not the best witnesses, our view as Wardens seem to be supported by both Flemeth and Morrigan.

And you can hardly take their assessment at face value either, what with their ulterior motives.

Modifié par phaonica, 16 août 2010 - 10:34 .

[TJPags]

I'll agree that Alistair is not a tactician - or at least, we have no indication that he has any such knowledge, training or background, so his determination that the battle could have been won is up for some skepticism.



However, don't the voiceover notes for Loghain indicate that even HE doesn't really believe the battle was unwinnable? If someone can please access and post those here, I'd love to see it (not a PC player, so can't do it myself)

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

I'll agree that Alistair is not a tactician - or at least, we have no indication that he has any such knowledge, training or background, so his determination that the battle could have been won is up for some skepticism.

However, don't the voiceover notes for Loghain indicate that even HE doesn't really believe the battle was unwinnable? If someone can please access and post those here, I'd love to see it (not a PC player, so can't do it myself)

Cailan: Loghain, my decision is final. I will stand by the Grey Wardens in this assault. (VO: wearily said, as if this is a long argument that has been going on for hours)
Loghain: You risk too much, Cailan! The darkspawn horde is too dangerous for you to be playing hero on the front lines. (VO: irritated and a bit condescending, as if speaking to a nephew who is being too foolish for his own good)
Cailan: If that's the case, perhaps we should wait for the Orlesian forces to join us, after all. (VO: knows that bringing up the Orlesians will anger Loghain, baiting him. Note: Orlesians are residents of the country Orlais, a historical enemy of Ferelden)
Loghain: I must repeat my protest to your fool notion that we need the Orlesians to defend ourselves! (VO: Forced to speak through gritted teeth. He despises the Orlesians and he should spit the word out with venom)
Cailan: It's not a "fool notion." Our arguments with the Orlesians are a thing of the past... and you will remember who is king. (VO: Loghain and he are close, but he IS the King)
Loghain: How fortunate Maric did not live to see his son ready to hand Ferelden over to those who enslaved us for a century! (VO: Loghain can't keep his cool on this subject)
Cailan: Then our current forces will have to suffice, won't they? Duncan, are your men ready for battle? (VO: Trying to be forceful, but coming out a little petulant)
...
Loghain: Your fascination with glory and legends will be your undoing, Cailan. We must attend to reality. (VO: said impatiently, as if it's been said many times before. This is a reminder.)
Cailan: Fine. Speak your strategy. The Grey Wardens and I draw the darkspawn into charging our lines and then...? (VO: They've been talking for hours now and he's tired)
Loghain: You will alert the tower to light the beacon, signaling my men to charge from cover. (VO: Said with belaboured patience)
Cailan: To flank the darkspawn, I remember. This is the Tower of Ishal in the ruins, yes? Who shall light this beacon? (VO: said in a tone of "ah, yes, that's right" -- he's being reminded of the plan)
Loghain: I have a few men stationed there. It's not a dangerous task, but it <emp>is</emp> vital. (VO: Stern)
Cailan: Then we should send our best. Send Alistair and the new Grey Warden to make sure it's done. (VO: thoughtful, then delighted that he can give this job to his favorite Grey Wardens)
PC: I'll do my best, your Majesty.
Loghain: You rely on these Grey Wardens too much. Is that truly wise? (VO: he obviously thinks it is NOT wise)
Cailan: Enough of your conspiracy theories, Loghain. Grey Wardens battle the Blight, no matter where they're from. (VO: He would rather Loghain agreed with him, but either way it's being done)
Duncan: Your Majesty, you should consider the possibility of the archdemon appearing. (VO: A respectful suggestion)
Loghain: There have been no signs of any dragons in the Wilds. (VO: Off-hand dismissal of the notion)
Cailan: Isn't that what your men are here for, Duncan? (VO: Said with a shrug and a smile)
Duncan: I... yes, your Majesty. (VO: He was about to argue and then resignedly agreed to the King's suggestion)
...
Cailan: Thank you, Loghain. I cannot wait for that glorious moment! The Grey Wardens battle beside the king of Ferelden to stem the tide of evil! (VO: Said with excitement, almost gushing at the prospect of glorious battle)
Loghain: Yes, Cailan. A glorious moment for us all. (VO: Said a bit ominously, Loghain knows that the coming battle is going to mean Cailan's death when he betrays the King)

I have to say, some of Cailan's VO notes surprised me.

PC: How much do you know about dwarves, your majesty?
Cailan: I've always wanted to learn more. Perhaps you could enlighten me sometime? (VO: Not something he plans to follow through with)
or
Cailan: Sounds like there's a story behind that. You must regale me with it sometime. (VO: Not really sincere about that.)

Loghain: The Wardens are impressive, but not as relevant as Cailan thinks.
...
PC: My father was the Teyrn of Highever.
Loghain: The king told me of his promise. I am certain he has every intention of following it through. (VO: what is unsaid: "...should he get the chance, which he won't.") I don't suppose you'll be riding into the thick of battle with the rest of your fellows, will you? (VO: Bored)
PC: I hope not!
Loghain: You are wiser than you look. (VO: Amused) Now I must return to my task. Pray that our king proves amenable to wisdom, if you're the praying sort. (VO: Wry, he obviously doesn't think highly of the King) 
PC: And if he doesn't? 
Loghain: Then simply pray. (VO: grim -- and prophetic)
or
PC: He seems like a fool, to me/ You don't seem very fond of him.
Loghain: He is Maric's son and the leader of my beloved Ferelden. And a very young man. I try to keep that in mind, as should you. (VO: This is a veiled warning)

Not much of a surprise there, we know he had a plan in place to enable him to leave if he felt he had to and it doesn't prove that Ostagar could have been won.

[TJPags]

Thanks Sarah, but doesn't Loghain also make a comment about it AFTER he's recruited? Or maybe at the Landsmeet?



I'm pretty sure he does, and that's the one I was looking for.



Something like "we couldn't have won even if I stayed", with the VO notes saying something like "he doesn't believe this, but wants it to be true"?



If I'm completely off the mark here, well, then oops.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't know the VO notes, but I believe there's an exchange with Wynn like that: effectively, Loghain says that the mages broke before he left and ruined a chance.

[TJPags]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I don't know the VO notes, but I believe there's an exchange with Wynn like that: effectively, Loghain says that the mages broke before he left and ruined a chance.

I think that may be the one I'm looking for - takes place during RtO, right?

It's either that, or during a camp discussion you can initiate with Loghain.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Thanks Sarah, but doesn't Loghain also make a comment about it AFTER he's recruited? Or maybe at the Landsmeet?

I'm pretty sure he does, and that's the one I was looking for.

Something like "we couldn't have won even if I stayed", with the VO notes saying something like "he doesn't believe this, but wants it to be true"?

If I'm completely off the mark here, well, then oops.

I can't get at RtO ones but I've found these:

Loghain: By all means, tell me again how I murdered Cailan. I find the topic inexhaustibly fascinating. (VO: Dry) There is no possibility, of course, that Cailan's poor judgment in leading the charge against my advice caused his death. Because he fell in battle, his part in the massacre at Ostagar must be excused, and because I survived, all responsibility must fall to me. (VO: Sour)

PC: What would you have done, if you'd won?
Loghain: I suppose that depends on how much of the kingdom was left by then. (VO: Dry) Once the border was secure, the army would have regrouped to push back the darkspawn in the south.
PC: But the border was in no danger.
Loghain: That's easy to say now. When chevaliers were massing on our doorstep, things were a little less clear. (VO: Dry)
or
PC: How could you afford to divide our forces?
Loghain: <desc>Scoffs</desc> We couldn't. Especially after Ostagar. It wasn't an ideal plan, but it seemed necessary at the time. (VO: Admitting that it was probably not going to work)

Loghain's banter with Wynne where they talk about who was responsible for Ostagar lacks VO's for many of his lines and those it has say things like 'mild' and 'pointed' so nothing like what you were talking about. I'm pretty sure that, regardless of what actually happened, by this point he's long since convinced himself that he couldn't have done anything else.

When you talk about Ostagar when he first shows up in Denerim there's not many VOs either.

[phaonica]

Loghain: Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been <emp>any</emp> chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him. (VO notes: He believes this. It's not true, exactly, but he believes it.)

I interpret this as that he had completely convinced himself that there was no hope to save Cailan when he left. He truly believed that he couldn't get to Cailan, and he wasn't going to risk more soldiers' lives if it was hopeless. I don't doubt, however, that Cailan's contact with the Orlesians influenced Loghain's decision more than he is willing to admit to himself.



Also, he is in a postion where he simply cannot afford to have regrets.



There is also this:

Maric: Loghain, if you hadn't come after me, you might have made a difference in that battle. At the very least, you might have gotten more of them out alive.

...

Loghain glanced up at Maric, eyes intense in the firelight. "Next time, I won't come to your rescue. You're on your own." Something significant passed between the two of them. Rowan could see it, but she couldn't understand it. Still, Maric seemed pleased by it.

(from the Stolen Throne)

[TJPags]

phaonica wrote...

Loghain: Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been any chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him. (VO notes: He believes this. It's not true, exactly, but he believes it.)

I interpret this as that he had completely convinced himself that there was no hope to save Cailan when he left. He truly believed that he couldn't get to Cailan, and he wasn't going to risk more soldiers' lives if it was hopeless. I don't doubt, however, that Cailan's contact with the Orlesians influenced Loghain's decision more than he is willing to admit to himself.

Also, he is in a postion where he simply cannot afford to have regrets.

THIS is the one I wanted.

I interpret this as:  It is NOT true that he could not have saved Caillan, just that Loghain thinks it was true - perhaps even NEEDS to believe it is true.  In other words, the fact is, he COULD have saved Caillan, he just didn't think he could.

[Tirigon]

Sarah´s post is most interesting, as the VO notes prove what the Loghain-critics already knew: Loghain DID plan to betray the king.

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Loghain: Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been any chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him. (VO notes: He believes this. It's not true, exactly, but he believes it.)

I interpret this as that he had completely convinced himself that there was no hope to save Cailan when he left. He truly believed that he couldn't get to Cailan, and he wasn't going to risk more soldiers' lives if it was hopeless. I don't doubt, however, that Cailan's contact with the Orlesians influenced Loghain's decision more than he is willing to admit to himself.

Also, he is in a postion where he simply cannot afford to have regrets.

THIS is the one I wanted.

I interpret this as:  It is NOT true that he could not have saved Caillan, just that Loghain thinks it was true - perhaps even NEEDS to believe it is true.  In other words, the fact is, he COULD have saved Caillan, he just didn't think he could.

It depends on what is "not true". Is it not true that there was a chance to reach Cailan? Or is it not true that Loghain would have fought to save him if there were even a slight chance of success?

[TJPags]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah´s post is most interesting, as the VO notes prove what the Loghain-critics already knew: Loghain DID plan to betray the king.

Indeed.

I take from those 2 quotes, or more precisely the VO notes, that:

1:  Loghain intended that Caillan not live beyond Ostagar.
2:  The battle could have been won, had Loghain done what he was supposed to.
 
Pretty damning, that.

[TJPags]

phaonica wrote...

TJPags wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Loghain: Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been any chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him. (VO notes: He believes this. It's not true, exactly, but he believes it.)

I interpret this as that he had completely convinced himself that there was no hope to save Cailan when he left. He truly believed that he couldn't get to Cailan, and he wasn't going to risk more soldiers' lives if it was hopeless. I don't doubt, however, that Cailan's contact with the Orlesians influenced Loghain's decision more than he is willing to admit to himself.

Also, he is in a postion where he simply cannot afford to have regrets.

THIS is the one I wanted.

I interpret this as:  It is NOT true that he could not have saved Caillan, just that Loghain thinks it was true - perhaps even NEEDS to believe it is true.  In other words, the fact is, he COULD have saved Caillan, he just didn't think he could.

It depends on what is "not true". Is it not true that there was a chance to reach Cailan? Or is it not true that Loghain would have fought to save him if there were even a slight chance of success?

But both are pretty damning, don't you think?

"is it not true that there a chance to reach Caillan"  Since his actual words imply that there was NO chance, the only way that could be not true is if there WAS a chance.

"is it not true that Loghain would have fought to save him if there were even a slight chance of success"  Which mean, even if there WAS a chance of success, he would not have tried to save him.

So, either he there WAS a chance, which Loghain didn't take (although he says he would have) or he wouldn't have taken the chance had it been there.

[Spinnazie]

It's a pretty logical decision. Loghain started this whole thing, it's a fitting death if he dies fighting the darkspawn.

[FiliusMartis]

Forgive my ignorance on the toolset and its workings, but are these notes only available for conversations with the warden, or is the full extent of the dialogue in there? I ask this because I wonder what kind of notes one would find in the scene where Loghain actually orders the retreat, specifically his exchange with Cauthrien.

[TJPags]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Forgive my ignorance on the toolset and its workings, but are these notes only available for conversations with the warden, or is the full extent of the dialogue in there? I ask this because I wonder what kind of notes one would find in the scene where Loghain actually orders the retreat, specifically his exchange with Cauthrien.

Conversations with the Warden and with other party members, for sure . . . don't know about cut scenes and such.

*edit*  I've just learned that they are there, I just personally don't have the PC version, so can't post them.

Modifié par TJPags, 17 août 2010 - 12:56 .