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[Elhanan]

It simply does not matter if Cailan was a fool or not; he was the King. If Loghain was doing what was best for Ferelden, he should have defended the one he advised, and took an oath to serve. Instead, he allowed his plan to go forward, killed the King and most of the Wardens, and nearly served up his precious Ferelden as dinner for the Archdemon.

Yes; the Wardens were a small group. But the army lost at Ostagar was comprised of many; reason why Loghain tried to rally support to rebuild. He allowed hundreds or even thousands to die out of fear of Oorlais.

It does not matter if the loss were only a single man, or the massive slaughter described in the story. It was still murder.

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

It simply does not matter if Cailan was a fool or not; he was the King. If Loghain was doing what was best for Ferelden, he should have defended the one he advised, and took an oath to serve. Instead, he allowed his plan to go forward, killed the King and most of the Wardens, and nearly served up his precious Ferelden as dinner for the Archdemon.
Yes; the Wardens were a small group. But the army lost at Ostagar was comprised of many; reason why Loghain tried to rally support to rebuild. He allowed hundreds or even thousands to die out of fear of Oorlais.
It does not matter if the loss were only a single man, or the massive slaughter described in the story. It was still murder.

I don't care if Cailan was the king or a peasant. I have no tolerance for foolishness and glory hunting. Or for a king who basically sells out his country. He (Loghain) "allowed" nothing. He did everything in his power to dissuade Cailan from it. He advised him against fighting on the front lines. Cailan rebuked him with an idiotic "Remember who's king!". How was he supposed to know there even WAS an AD? With the Wardens betraying Ferelden once AND the shady events in "The Calling"? With their tight lipped refusal to reveal HOW they know what they know? Not even my Warden finds out just WHY the GW are needed to end the Blight until almost the very end. So how was anyone else to know? No general believes a former traitorous group without proof. Many great generals had to leave parts of their armies to die to save larger numbers.

[Tirigon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Well, Saving the King would not only have saved the king but also the army that was with him. Maric would have agreed with Loghain deserting his king to save the soldiers, but definitely NOT with deserting an entire army.

Highly unlikely in the extreme: just getting to Cailan would have ripped the heart out of Loghain's forces, and in that time Cailan's forces would have been devestated as well. Armies in such danger of being demolished do not come out intact after a last-minute rescue.

Not after a last-minute-rescue, but after a glorious victory and the utter defeat of the darkspawn horde? They would.

[Persephone]

Tirigon wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Well, Saving the King would not only have saved the king but also the army that was with him. Maric would have agreed with Loghain deserting his king to save the soldiers, but definitely NOT with deserting an entire army.

Highly unlikely in the extreme: just getting to Cailan would have ripped the heart out of Loghain's forces, and in that time Cailan's forces would have been devestated as well. Armies in such danger of being demolished do not come out intact after a last-minute rescue.

Not after a last-minute-rescue, but after a glorious victory and the utter defeat of the darkspawn horde? They would.

Wouldn't have been a glorious victory at that point. Just how I see it.

[Tirigon]

Persephone wrote...


Wouldn't have been a glorious victory at that point. Just how I see it.

Then you need to play Rome Total War. The darkspawn horde were only about 3 times more than the defenders, but I know from TW-experience that you can easily defeat a 5 times stronger force with a flank attack.

[CalJones]

I agree with Persephone that Cailan was a fool. A well-meaning fool, but a fool nonetheless. His tragedy is that he has been trying to emerge from his father's shadow, and Maric has some very large boots to fill. Doubtless inspired by tales of his father's heroism, he wants to be a storybook hero in a similar vein. He is also idealistic and naive when it comes to Orlais, and sees the darkspawn incursion as both a chance to be that hero, and to build bridges with the former enemy. The latter may not be an entirely bad thing but Cailan is certainly not politically astute enough to deal with someone like Celene, who will run rings around him.

Loghain obviously doesn't know quite how far Cailan's overtures to Celene have gone, if his surprise during RtO is anything to go by, but he certainly suspects something, and unsurprisingly worried. If the two could have reached a middle ground, the Ostagar tragedy might have been averted, but both Loghain and Cailan are too stubborn for that: Loghain has witnessed too many horrors to be able to trust the Orlesians again, while Cailan is desperate to assert his authority over the older, more experienced man and won't back down.

With that in mind, Loghain has put various plans in motion, including neutralising Cailan's closest ally, Eamon (temporarily, if "word of God" is anything to go by, though that's not made clear in the game itself). I believe his Plan A was always to try and talk sense into Cailan - perhaps he hoped that without Eamon's influence, Cailan could eventually be reasoned with. Even right up until the war council, he gives Cailan an out, but Cailan won't take it and this seals his own fate.

So he falls back on Plan B, which is to leave Cailan and the wardens high and dry.

I do believe that if Loghain thought the battle was winnable, he would have charged anyway, but talking to him beforehand does seem to indicate that he is rather pessimistic about their chances. Others around the camp also mention that darkspawn numbers are increasing and this battle wouldn't be as easy as previous ones. Loghain may have been correct that the battle was hopeless, or he may have perceived it as such due to his own outlook. It's also possible that it might have been possible to defeat the darkspawn, but it would have been a Pyrrhic victory, and would have left Fereldan defenceless against the archdemon once it did appear. One thing I will say is that if a man famous for winning impossible battles doesn't think the battle can be won (or at least won without paying too high a price) then he probably has a point.

[Persephone]

Tirigon wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Wouldn't have been a glorious victory at that point. Just how I see it.

Then you need to play Rome Total War. The darkspawn horde were only about 3 times more than the defenders, but I know from TW-experience that you can easily defeat a 5 times stronger force with a flank attack.

I have played that game. So? Different in nearly every way.

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

I don't care if Cailan was the king or a peasant. I have no tolerance for foolishness and glory hunting. Or for a king who basically sells out his country. He (Loghain) "allowed" nothing. He did everything in his power to dissuade Cailan from it. He advised him against fighting on the front lines. Cailan rebuked him with an idiotic "Remember who's king!". How was he supposed to know there even WAS an AD? With the Wardens betraying Ferelden once AND the shady events in "The Calling"? With their tight lipped refusal to reveal HOW they know what they know? Not even my Warden finds out just WHY the GW are needed to end the Blight until almost the very end. So how was anyone else to know? No general believes a former traitorous group without proof. Many great generals had to leave parts of their armies to die to save larger numbers.

It may not be your place to care, but it was Loghains. He accepted a role in this political realm, then balked when it would not go his way. It was not his place to decide on treaties, alliances, and such matters. It was his duty to lead the army, guard the King, and win the day; not sacrifice it because he did not like his future play pals. He is not supposed to order the King, but he seemed to forget that fact often.

Some may forgive him because he attempted to dissuade Cailan from going into the fray. I do not. It was not his place to choose in the first place. Loghain failed his duty to Cailan, his daughter, and to his nation.

And it is correct that the whole Joining secret created problems, as most outside the Wardens did not have all the intel needed. But this does not excuse Loghain's actions on the field; just another ranked leader acting on his own ignorance and nearly bringing extinction to the nation he was sworn to protect. His task was to serve his betters, as Ser Cauthrian put it; not to place himself above his duty.

[CalJones]

Ah, but Loghain saw his task as to serve Fereldan, and if walking away served Fereldan better than rushing in to save the king, that's what he was going to do. (Whether, in fact, it did serve Fereldan better is a whole other issue, and one that could be argued for another 50 pages).

[Elhanan]

CalJones wrote...

Ah, but Loghain saw his task as to serve Fereldan, and if walking away served Fereldan better than rushing in to save the king, that's what he was going to do. (Whether, in fact, it did serve Fereldan better is a whole other issue, and one that could be argued for another 50 pages).

He saw thru eyes compromised by hatred. It was not his place to usurp control, or make those choices; why he is guilty of regicide. It was not his duty to decide if the King was foolish; was his task to protect him. It was Loghain's duty as commander of the army to lead it; not shrink away from the fighting when called.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...
He saw thru eyes compromised by hatred. It was not his place to usurp control, or make those choices; why he is guilty of regicide. It was not his duty to decide if the King was foolish; was his task to protect him. It was Loghain's duty as commander of the army to lead it; not shrink away from the fighting when called.

Actually, it was not Loghain's job to protect him if only because Loghain was not positioned to protect him. I would also add that Cailan refused to allow himself to be protected, but perhaps you see Loghain as something like the Secret Service who will pick the President up and carry him to safety regardless of what his demands are. It was also the responsibility of the soldiers around Cailan to protect. He's their king too, and by proxy, they've sworn fealty to him. But you know what, they were all dead or dying. Hard to save the king then.

[Monica21]

Elhanan wrote...

We have Wynne's testimony of Loghains "treachory" that she gave to the Circle, to counter Uldred's earlier reports and manipulations. This would seem to confirm what we as Warden's already understand to be the case. If withdrawl was only done to save the remaining men, then it makes little sense for Wynne to have given such a report, let alone be so upset with Loghain during the RtO moments.
Alistair appears to have support from the other survivors; some in Loghain's own command.

Alistair also lets emotion override his reason at times. One of the potential outcomes of the Landsmeet being one of those time. The cutscene showed Duncan watching soldiers being killed all around him, and then he looked despairingly at the beacon. Clearly he thought they needed Loghain's forces. There is no in-game evidence to support a conclusion that Ostagar was "almost won."

[DragonRacer13]

Persephone wrote...
Difference. The Wardens were a small group. Loghain had thousands of lives under his command. I see it as picking the lesser evil, no pun intended. He saved a huge chunk of the army by not following a signal lit up much too late. Could he have saved the day? Maybe. But remembering West Hill... among other things... his decision was clear.

You and Phaonica both touched on this and it brings to mind an old quote that I believe is appropriate here. It's from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and I can't remember who said it first - Captain Kirk or Spock - but it was one of the most memorable lines from the movie and still sticks with me to this day. I think it's what Maric was trying to impress upon Loghain:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one."

Modifié par DragonRacer13, 17 août 2010 - 04:21 .

[Monica21]

DragonRacer13 wrote...
You and Phaonica both touched on this and it brings to mind an old quote that I believe is appropriate here. It's from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and I can't remember who said it first - Captain Kirk or Spock - but it was one of the most memorable lines from the movie and still sticks with me to this day. I think it's what Maric was trying to impress upon Loghain:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one."

I was SO hoping you'd say "KHAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!" But maybe that's just me.

[DragonRacer13]

Monica21 wrote...

DragonRacer13 wrote...
You and Phaonica both touched on this and it brings to mind an old quote that I believe is appropriate here. It's from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and I can't remember who said it first - Captain Kirk or Spock - but it was one of the most memorable lines from the movie and still sticks with me to this day. I think it's what Maric was trying to impress upon Loghain:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one."

I was SO hoping you'd say "KHAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNN!!!!" But maybe that's just me.

Haha, nice!

Hmmm... Battle of Ostagar = Kobayashi Maru Sequence = The No-Win Scenario?

[Sarah1281]

It simply does not matter if Cailan was a fool or not; he was the King. If Loghain was doing what was best for Ferelden, he should have defended the one he advised, and took an oath to serve. Instead, he allowed his plan to go forward, killed the King and most of the Wardens, and nearly served up his precious Ferelden as dinner for the Archdemon.

Okay, so wait...If Cailan was a fool then saving him and having him, a fool, try to lead the country during a Blight would have been what was best for it? How is it EVER best for a country to have a fool running it at all, let alone during a crisis?

[Elhanan]

One at a time; my two fingers can only type so fast.....

@ Monica21 - (luv that name, FTW) - Loghain was supposedly Maric's best friend, and the Father-In-Law to Maric's son on the throne. Yet Loghain chose to hate the Orleasians more than he loved Maric, or his own kin. It may not have been his personal duty to protect the King directly, but as the chief of staff and the one making the battle arrangements, protection for the King would seem to be a task assigned in Loghain's dept

And as for the lack of IG evidence , having the battle handed to the darkspawn took care of most of it. But there were witnesses: Ser Cauthrian, some of his own troops, the friend who told the lad on the rack, Wynne, maybe others. Plus there are the resultant actions of Loghain himself. No need to cover up an act of innocence, yet Loghain and Howe keep stepping deeper and deeper into the muck to try and remove anyone or anything they could not control.

While Alistair was emotional, his testimony against Loghain was truthful. And I always thought Duncan was taking some solace in seeing that his youngest charges succeeded in their mission.

@ DragonRacer13 - Loved that film. But you have to prove to me that the many were saved. I postulate that only Loghain's own troops and that of his underlings were evacuated; not the majority of the army gathered. I am not tactician, but am guessing that it took more of the troops to draw the Darkspawn into a charge; not the few. And it would seem to be more difficult to withdraw the majority of an army, but not the few.

@Sarah1281 - Cailan was the King; not Loghain. Loghain could advise, and should speak his mind on events and differences. But when he chose to take the authority not given to his rank and station, he became a traitor in his conspiring to remove Cailan from the political field. If one desires true change, they use the system that they have in place. One does not get to decide to play a new game, with new rules. You believe Loghain would be content with someone killing Anora based on a like opinion? And Lil reminds us that fools are made Kings quite often.

[Sarah1281]

@Sarah1281 - Cailan was the King; not Loghain. Loghain could advise, and should speak his mind on events and differences. But when he chose to take the authority not given to his rank and station, he became a traitor in his conspiring to remove Cailan from the political field. If one desires true change, they use the system that they have in place. One does not get to decide to play a new game, with new rules. You believe Loghain would be content with someone killing Anora based on a like opinion? And Lil reminds us that fools are made Kings quite often.

That wasn't what I asked. I did not ask if Loghain was the King. I did not ask anything about Anora. I did not ask whether fools were Kings IRL. I did not ask about Loghain being a traitor or not. I asked if you honestly thought that it was in the best interest of Ferelden to have a fool on throne during a Blight.



It's all well and good to respect your legal monarch but if (and no need to launch into a defense of Cailan here as I'm not accusing him of anything) the King was such a fool that the country would suffer under his rule, particularly if a crisis hit like a war or Blight, then is it really the moral thing to do to stand by patriotically and try to make the King see reason and not be such a moron while the country falls to pieces?

[Elhanan]

Uncertain of the political apparatus that DAO has, but it would seem that the Nobles have power in rule. Using such events as the Landsmeet to remove the supposed fool is better for the nation than having him killed, or declaring war against him. This was included in the points made by Eamon in removing Loghain, as killing him simply would make them the same as the ones they opposed. And the only thing left is anarchy, rule w/o law.

And as for judgement, which fool decides? The fool on the throne, or the one that has the differing POV. You may not respect the Fool, but one should respect the throne and the authority it bears.

[Monica21]

Okay, there's only so much to be agreed on and only so many arguments can be made for or against. So that said, you're one of three Grey Wardens in a country invaded by a Blight. The offer is made to make Loghain a Warden. Metagaming aside, you know he could die in the Joining, and you don't know you'll lose Alistair unless you kill him. You also know that the Wardens routinely conscript criminals into their service. Becoming a Warden is a death sentence anyway. He could die in the battle or die in the Deep Roads, you don't know. Either way, he'll no longer be a Teryn and no longer command Ferelden's armies.

As a Warden, you know all that when the offer is made. As a Warden your allegiance is not to Ferelden but to stopping the Blight. Your job is not to dispense Ferelden justice. Why wouldn't you accept the offer to make him a Warden if you can? Four are still better than three.

[Tirigon]

Persephone wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Wouldn't have been a glorious victory at that point. Just how I see it.

Then you need to play Rome Total War. The darkspawn horde were only about 3 times more than the defenders, but I know from TW-experience that you can easily defeat a 5 times stronger force with a flank attack.

I have played that game. So? Different in nearly every way.

You either lie or you fail at Rome TW. otherwise you would KNOW that the Fereldans Could have won at Ostagar.

[Tirigon]

Monica21 wrote...

Okay, there's only so much to be agreed on and only so many arguments can be made for or against. So that said, you're one of three Grey Wardens in a country invaded by a Blight. The offer is made to make Loghain a Warden. Metagaming aside, you know he could die in the Joining, and you don't know you'll lose Alistair unless you kill him. You also know that the Wardens routinely conscript criminals into their service. Becoming a Warden is a death sentence anyway. He could die in the battle or die in the Deep Roads, you don't know. Either way, he'll no longer be a Teryn and no longer command Ferelden's armies.

As a Warden, you know all that when the offer is made. As a Warden your allegiance is not to Ferelden but to stopping the Blight. Your job is not to dispense Ferelden justice. Why wouldn't you accept the offer to make him a Warden if you can? Four are still better than three.

2 reasons: Firstly, I KNOW Alistair will leave without metagaming because he says so if you don´t dismiss the idea outright. Secondly, The Wardens are supposed to be glorious and heroic. They can´t fulfill this duty if they have a traitor as one of them.
Lastly, it´s really dumb to trust Loghain at this point, and if Loghain would think a bit like me the Warden would die the first time he fights at Loghain´s side.

[Monica21]

Tirigon wrote...
2 reasons: Firstly, I KNOW Alistair will leave without metagaming because he says so if you don´t dismiss the idea outright. Secondly, The Wardens are supposed to be glorious and heroic. They can´t fulfill this duty if they have a traitor as one of them.
Lastly, it´s really dumb to trust Loghain at this point, and if Loghain would think a bit like me the Warden would die the first time he fights at Loghain´s side.

Alistair says he'll leave, but do you know without metagaming that he won't come back? What the Wardens are "supposed" to be and what they actually are are two very different things. They have always said they do what they have to do to defeat the Blight. Whether or not you believe Loghain to be a traitor, another Warden can help you defeat the Blight. As for trusting Loghain, this is a man who's just admitted he's wrong and takes the prospect of his death like a man. He's willing to die for his crimes. Why not trust him?

[Tirigon]

Monica21 wrote...

Alistair says he'll leave, but do you know without metagaming that he won't come back? What the Wardens are "supposed" to be and what they actually are are two very different things. They have always said they do what they have to do to defeat the Blight. Whether or not you believe Loghain to be a traitor, another Warden can help you defeat the Blight. As for trusting Loghain, this is a man who's just admitted he's wrong and takes the prospect of his death like a man. He's willing to die for his crimes. Why not trust him?

Maybe because 5 minutes ago he ordered his guards to execute you, Alistair, and Eamon?

Let me ask you this: Would YOU - not a badass warden who can´t loose due to reload but YOU - really trust a guy who is trying to get you killed since months and called for your execution shortly ago?

Modifié par Tirigon, 17 août 2010 - 06:55 .

[Elhanan]

Monica21 wrote...

Okay, there's only so much to be agreed on and only so many arguments can be made for or against. So that said, you're one of three Grey Wardens in a country invaded by a Blight. The offer is made to make Loghain a Warden. Metagaming aside, you know he could die in the Joining, and you don't know you'll lose Alistair unless you kill him. You also know that the Wardens routinely conscript criminals into their service. Becoming a Warden is a death sentence anyway. He could die in the battle or die in the Deep Roads, you don't know. Either way, he'll no longer be a Teryn and no longer command Ferelden's armies.

As a Warden, you know all that when the offer is made. As a Warden your allegiance is not to Ferelden but to stopping the Blight. Your job is not to dispense Ferelden justice. Why wouldn't you accept the offer to make him a Warden if you can? Four are still better than three.

For me, it depends on the Warden. Most of the time, I go ahead and execute him for the same reasons I give to Teagan about Jowan: he cannot be trusted. None of his actions before the Landsmeet do anything to sway me. And I generally mention this to Anora before the Landsmeet: that justice is deserved.

But I have Warden's both good and not so good that have allowed Loghain to live. Some used such meta-knowledge as precognative ability, and would spare Alistair and allow Loghain to make the sacrifice against Archie. They also could read Flemeth's Journals, but that is for another thread.

Once I had planned to have Lohain make the DR, but the newly discovered lines convinced me to alter my plans. Truly great writing! Only a single time has everyone lived, and I did that with an Evil Warden to have Loghain's DR child as a possible way to exploit the future throne against Anora if I so wanted. And I had everyone fooled to think that I did it for the good of Ferelden.

But as a Player, Loghain is guilty of murder, and deserves death. At least, so says this juror.