1092 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Well, Caridin and Shale did. Her memory loss seems to be more tied to how long it was (Caridin's guess) or Wilhelm's experiments (my theory).

[Khavos]

umwhatyousay wrote...
Again, I find it inexcusable that they don't warn people about these risks (SOUL DESTRUCTION). That's really not a choice you should make for someone else,* and that's why the more I find out about Duncan and the Grey Wardens, the less I like him/them. And, as others have said, people would still be willing to take these risks voluntarily.

Not nearly as many, though, especially not if there hasn't been a Blight in a few hundred years, as was the case with the fifth Blight.  When the darkspawn are something that even your great-grandfather has only heard about as ancient history, you're a lot less likely to volunteer for guaranteed death sometime in the next thirty years or less fighting something that most people have long since ceased to consider a real threat.

It normally doesn't take just a couple Wardens to put an end to one. 
You need a lot, and they need to be very good at what they do.

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...
Do they all retain their histories and personalities and stuff? Did they become mindless or just controllable? I don't remember.

I honestly don't know.

Even if not, I think dwarves would probably look at becoming a golem quite differently than humans and elves would look at becoming a Warden; dwarves have been fighting - and losing - to darkspawn for centuries.  The threat never goes away for them.  Becoming a golem would make you an instant asset to the rest of your people, which isn't the (known) case with Grey Wardens.  When there isn't a Blight, most surfacers start to forget about the darkspawn within a few generations.  

[Bahlgan]

phaonica wrote...

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

IIRC becoming a golem was on a volunteer basis for a long time.

At first I thought that the Joining was a secret because it involved a type of blood magic.

Becoming a golem's almost the exact opposite, though.  Assuming you don't die, you're immortal. 

Do they all retain their histories and personalities and stuff? Did they become mindless or just controllable? I don't remember.

The golems in the Deep Roads probably also forgot who they were, after all they were shut down for a while down in the dark. If that isn't correct, then my next guess is that the golems were guarding the anvil so passionately that they threw away the discrimination of friend from foe.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, Caridin and Shale did. Her memory loss seems to be more tied to how long it was (Caridin's guess) or Wilhelm's experiments (my theory).

I thought those two were the exception, though, and not the rule. I thought that the dwarves thought that they were basically signing up for death, but that Caridan knew they were being enslaved.

I assumed that if golems continued to have their minds and their histories, and were basically just big metal dwarves, then being in a different body could only be called being enslaved because they could be controlled. Because being "enslaved" in a body is kind of normal, no matter if it's metal or fleshy.

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, Caridin and Shale did. Her memory loss seems to be more tied to how long it was (Caridin's guess) or Wilhelm's experiments (my theory).

I thought those two were the exception, though, and not the rule. I thought that the dwarves thought that they were basically signing up for death, but that Caridan knew they were being enslaved.

I assumed that if golems continued to have their minds and their histories, and were basically just big metal dwarves, then being in a different body could only be called being enslaved because they could be controlled. Because being "enslaved" in a body is kind of normal, no matter if it's metal or fleshy.

I could be interpreting Caridin's story wrong, but I thought the enslavement bit only came in when whoever was king at the time started ordering criminals, political prisoners, etc. to be turned into golems; I didn't think that it was the case with the (relatively few) volunteers.  I got the impression that the first few golems were volunteers, but after that it was almost all people forced into it.

[Cat Fancy]

Most golems in the game don't seem to have ever had a tremendous amount of autonomy, although there are some exceptions. In Shale's case, it seems that she was perfectly aware of what she was doing and that she didn't like it, but had no control over her actions. Caridin said she was always strong, but I can't imagine she was was that unique. (Awakening YIKES moment: using the control rod to activate a golem and then... leaving it there? Have fun, bored slave creature! Grey Wardens or GREAT Wardens?)

Khavos wrote...

umwhatyousay wrote...
Again, I find it inexcusable that they don't warn people about these risks (SOUL DESTRUCTION). That's really not a choice you should make for someone else,* and that's why the more I find out about Duncan and the Grey Wardens, the less I like him/them. And, as others have said, people would still be willing to take these risks voluntarily.

Not nearly as many, though, especially not if there hasn't been a Blight in a few hundred years, as was the case with the fifth Blight. When the darkspawn are something that even your great-grandfather has only heard about as ancient history, you're a lot less likely to volunteer for guaranteed death sometime in the next thirty years or less fighting something that most people have long since ceased to consider a real threat.

It normally doesn't take just a couple Wardens to put an end to one.
You need a lot, and they need to be very good at what they do.

That's probably true, but people sacrificed for the greater good are under no obligation to be remotely pleased about it, and I don't think this is worth it.

Modifié par umwhatyousay, 05 août 2010 - 03:49 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Riloux wrote...

Anyway, my point is Loghain doesn't deserve redemption. He's just a power hungry, bitter, lying piece of **** that did nothing good for anyone and if he was not stopped would have surely been responsible for the complete destruction of Ferelden.

Half the people the Grey Warden has in the party don't 'deserve' redemption. Even Duncan had blood on his hands before being recruited. Acts of mercy and acts of grace are often undeserved--that's why they are what they are.

Some people spare him:
a) out of practicality and a belief that having a famed general on side will be useful
because they trust Riordan is right, him being a senior Warden
c) because they don't give a crap about Alistair
d) because they DO care about Alistair, but not enough to kill a conquered enemy for him
e) because they think it's cruel to execute Loghain in front of his daughter
f) because they see Loghain becoming a Grey Warden as poetic justice
g) because they hope the Joining will kill him
h) because they do not see themselves as judges or executors
i) because they are genuinely merciful characters, perhaps to a fault

The list goes on. It depends how you're playing the game. It's a tough scene though, if  you're close friends or in a romance with Alistair.

[Khavos]

umwhatyousay wrote...
That's probably true, but people sacrificed for the greater good are under no obligation to be remotely pleased about it, and I don't think this is worth it.

That's fine.  I suspect the Wardens wouldn't care.  I'm not saying their tactics are necessarily morally good, but I do think they're necessary. 

[Dean_the_Young]

jln.francisco wrote...

Not necesarily. Take the Purple Heart in the US for instance. The only way to get one is to be wounded in combat and yet it's something most soldiers, Marines and sailors want because of the glory that comes with it. All it would take is a little PR on the Warden's part and targeting their efforts towards younger men with the full 30 years to look forward to.

I have yet to meet any soldier who wants to be awarded an Enemy Accuracy Ribbon. While there's something to the saying that young men think themselves invincible, that generally applies in respect to that they don't think they will get shot, not that they want to be shot.




As for the OP, I could think of many reasons why one might want to conscript Loghain.

-Humiliation of Loghain, being forced into the very order he slandered and live with the knowledge of his defeat and error. The 'you don't get to die that easily' routine.
-A more painful and poetic form of death, should the taint take him.
-Winning the Blight, since Loghain is a far better qualified general than just about anyone else in Ferelden. And Blights are the point of the Grey Wardens...
-Resolving the Civil War more soundly: rather than having Loghain's allies grumble and stew after the defeat, he can lead them to fully accept the outcome of Landsmeet.
-Points with Anora. Assuming she becomes Queen (With or without Alistair, or even with you), sparing Loghain an inglorious execution for the Blood Goblet can put you in the ruler's good graces, which can serve you well both personally and for the Wardens down the road.
-Sparring Alistair the final battle. Regardless if you know about the Arch Demon sacrifice or not, it's very easy (likely, even) that Alistair could die in the battle. If one cares more for Alistair's health than Alistair's approval, putting Loghain in harms way while Alistair is safe® could be a friend's self-sacrifice.
-A marked dislike for Alistair: not common, perhaps, but not everyone likes Alistair in the first place.
-A sense of karmic gratitude for someone touched indirectly by Loghain in a good way: had Loghain not acted the way he did, after all, the player would never have met Zevren and possibly other love interests.

[Khavos]

Anyway, having started a thread on this myself a few days ago that's still going after nineteen pages, I think the best way to determine if you're going to spare and conscript Loghain is to ask how much your character buys into the Grey Warden ethos. If you buy into the "defeating Blights > anything" code of the Wardens, conscripting Ferelden's greatest living general makes sense. The Wardens will recruit a mass murderer if they're suitably impressed with his skills, after all. If Loghain makes it through the Joining, he's fighting darkspawn whether he wants to or not.

[Khavos]

jln.francisco wrote...
The same would be true with GWs except there's no backing out. It'd be a little deceptive but not nearly as much as lying about the whole thing.

They don't lie.  They simply don't tell you everything.

[Cat Fancy]

Khavos wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...
The same would be true with GWs except there's no backing out. It'd be a little deceptive but not nearly as much as lying about the whole thing.

They don't lie.  They simply don't tell you everything.

Lying by omission is a thing. A bad thing, in my opinion! The Grey Wardens decide that one soul's destruction is worth a bunch of mortal lives saved and I'm not so sure about that (not that I have any idea what it means to have one's soul destroyed but it sounds not good). At any rate, I still think people should be allowed to make informed decisions about their lives and, more importantly, even before the soul destruction nonsense is revealed, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to decide you don't much care for what the Grey Wardens mean to Alistair and induct Loghain into them.

Edit: well, that's quite an awkward sentence you've created right there. Oh, well.

Modifié par umwhatyousay, 05 août 2010 - 04:18 .

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, Caridin and Shale did. Her memory loss seems to be more tied to how long it was (Caridin's guess) or Wilhelm's experiments (my theory).

I thought those two were the exception, though, and not the rule. I thought that the dwarves thought that they were basically signing up for death, but that Caridan knew they were being enslaved.

I assumed that if golems continued to have their minds and their histories, and were basically just big metal dwarves, then being in a different body could only be called being enslaved because they could be controlled. Because being "enslaved" in a body is kind of normal, no matter if it's metal or fleshy.

I could be interpreting Caridin's story wrong, but I thought the enslavement bit only came in when whoever was king at the time started ordering criminals, political prisoners, etc. to be turned into golems; I didn't think that it was the case with the (relatively few) volunteers.  I got the impression that the first few golems were volunteers, but after that it was almost all people forced into it.

I don't know. I'm looking at Caridan's dialog in the toolset and it's hard to tell whether it's the enslavement of the soul that is the problem, or the not volunteering that's the problem. He doesn't seem to think the Anvil should be used, even if only volunteers were used, either because of the severity of trapping the soul, or because he simply does not believe it would ever be used on a volunteer only basis.

He says that "It took feeling the hammer's blow myself to realize the height of my crimes." Which implies to me that he didn't realize the severity of having one's soul entrapped, not that he didn't realize the severity of having not volunteered. Also, he says "How would you feel to know you've been torn from all the spirits that had come before you, that you would never rest with the ancestors?"

You are right that it doesn't look like the volunteer era lasted very long. He does say that the dwarves thought they were signing up for death: "Originally I only took volunteers, the bravest of souls willing to trade their very lives for the chance to defend their homeland." and that they didn't know their souls would be enslaved " As an army, they were invincible. But I told no one the cost." This says to me that if the dwarves thought they were signing up for death, that the golems must not have been much like the dwarves that they used to be, and not like they were just  trading bodies.

Also, he says that because a control rod was not created for him, that he retained his mind (implying that golems with a control rod don't retain their mind), and yet when he talks to Shale, he is surprised that she doesn't remember anything (implying that she *should* remember, and that she *should* have retained her mind). 

Yet if they don't retain their minds, what's the issue with their soul being trapped? hm.

So ultimately, I think my point still stands, that some people *will* sign up for death. In the Wardens case, you don't need a constant standing army, and I think some people would sign up during a Blight, even knowing that it could mean a quite early death.

Modifié par phaonica, 05 août 2010 - 04:22 .

[tybbiesniffer]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Not necesarily. Take the Purple Heart in the US for instance. The only way to get one is to be wounded in combat and yet it's something most soldiers, Marines and sailors want because of the glory that comes with it. All it would take is a little PR on the Warden's part and targeting their efforts towards younger men with the full 30 years to look forward to.

I have yet to meet any soldier who wants to be awarded an Enemy Accuracy Ribbon. While there's something to the saying that young men think themselves invincible, that generally applies in respect to that they don't think they will get shot, not that they want to be shot.

I think Dean_the_Young is closer to the reality.  It's a difference between being cavalier about being wounded/dying and suicidal. Personally, I'll happily pass on any ribbon that requires I get wounded for it and I certainly have no interest in dying.  <shrug>  However, I wouldn't argue that men may have a different perspective.

On topic, I found Loghain despicable (especially after reading the books) but I did save him once just to see what happened.  I greatly enjoyed making it very clear to him that he was there so I could use him in every way possible, including dying in lieu of me.  It was, possibly, even more rewarding than killing him outright at the Landsmeet.  He's definitley worth saving at least once for pure entertainment value regardless of personal opinion of him.

[JeCy108]

would you spare  hitlers second in command if you knew it would of ment you would of ended WWII  4 years sooner?


that said.. i had alister kill him... the first time through...  and good ridance..  Im sure ill recruit him eventually

Modifié par JeCy108, 05 août 2010 - 05:06 .

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...
So ultimately, I think my point still stands, that some people *will* sign up for death. In the Wardens case, you don't need a constant standing army, and I think some people would sign up during a Blight, even knowing that it could mean a quite early death.

Some will, certainly.  I think they would be few and far between if there hadn't been a Blight for three hundred years, though.  That was my point; the dwarves were able to get volunteers because the darkspawn are a constant threat to them, a constant threat that is unquestionably winning the war.  Most of Thedas was convinced that there would never be another Blight after the Fourth due to how many darkspawn were killed during it; very, very few people would sign up to limit their lives to a thirty-year span to fight a threat that the vast majority of civilization thinks is over.  No one's joining the American military today because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor; that war's won.  That's the attitude of Thedas a few generations after a Blight.  Only the Grey Wardens know differently, and no one buys it when they say so. 

And the Wardens do need a standing army, or at least to sustain their numbers.  There's no predicting when or where a Blight will occur, and, as mentioned, it usually takes a lot more than three Wardens to end one.  Letting their numbers thin down until it's just fifty guys sitting in the Anderfels is a recipe for disaster.  If a Blight springs up in Ferelden again, they'd have to do the equivalent of walking from Poland to England before there was even a chance that the Blight could be ended, and that'd take...well, some time.  Time during which the Blight is only winning.     

[Last Darkness]

I wish you could actualy have Dog Duel Loghaine lol, after reviewing the comments here I agree with everybody theres equal reasons to spare him and equal reasons to execute him.



Heres a question though....who here belives making Alistair King is the best option?

Look at it from Alistairs point of view and the safty and protection of all of ferelden (Maric became King by wining a war to drive Orlais out of ferelden. Until then everyone in ferelden were slaves)

What would Half-Elf Alistair actualy want?

[Sarah1281]

We don't know Alistair is half-elf (I assume you mean Fiona is his mother as there is no such thing as a 'half-elf') and even if he were it wouldn't change who he was or what he wanted even if he found this out.

[EccentricSage]

I don't think you have to forgive Loghain or feel any empathy for him to spare him. The choice comes down to weather you make the decision from a tactical, military POV or a rational personal POV.



I think it would have been a stronger choice if you got something more out of sparing him than just him. I agree with anyone who says it was a week point in the game. I love the ideas people have about a confession to his people instead of him dying as a hero. Also some extra troops might be nice, but I guess his troops probably will fight for Ferelden with or without him once they see that Archdemon flying towards their capitol city.

[EccentricSage]

Last Darkness wrote...

I wish you could actualy have Dog Duel Loghaine lol, after reviewing the comments here I agree with everybody theres equal reasons to spare him and equal reasons to execute him.

Heres a question though....who here belives making Alistair King is the best option?
Look at it from Alistairs point of view and the safty and protection of all of ferelden (Maric became King by wining a war to drive Orlais out of ferelden. Until then everyone in ferelden were slaves)
What would Half-Elf Alistair actualy want?

Alistair believes some maid who died in childbirth was his mother, so I don't think Fiona has any baring on his perspective.  We don't even know for sure if he is Fiona's child, though I'd like it to be true and would love any new content in which he is reunited with his mother who COULD still be alive. 

That aside, I don't think Alistair is the ideal King... not by a longshot.  While he is kind and well intentioned, he's much like his father in his distaste for being in leadership possitions.  It does not come naturaly to him.  He also has MORE of a tendancy towards racial and religeous bias than Meric had.  I think he'd be smarter and more involved than Cailan, which is good, but I think he would let the influence of the Bannorns and Tyrns  and chantry get in the way of possitive changes in Ferelden.  I think this is evident in how he is rude and hateful towards Morrigan the verry moment she shows up, before she even gets a chance to pick on him, for one example.  Even though he hated being raised by the chantry and didn't want to be a templar, he still lets their teachings dictate a lot of who he is and how he reacts to others.  He is not a man prone to introspection and does not seem verry self aware.  That makes him week and maliable to the influence of those he will doubtlessly seek councel from.  I would sooner see Zevran king of Ferelden.  LOL 

But I would rather have him rule than Anora, whom I don't trust at all.  I like to make my HN King or Queen, or make my other characters Tyrn, etc.  I like to set it up in some way that ensures he'll have the support of a trusted friend in the political arena.  I also like to have Zevran stay if possible, because he is cunning, pragmatic, and at the core of his being actually a really compassionate person.  A powerful ally to have advising the throne, ready to take care of any problematic politicians who try to undermine our agenda.  And one who is worthy of a place of honor in society and some luxury after what he's been through and for his loyalty to his new friends.

So... that is my take on the whole leadership in Ferelden issue.

[LobselVith8]

Last Darkness wrote...

I wish you could actualy have Dog Duel Loghaine lol, after reviewing the comments here I agree with everybody theres equal reasons to spare him and equal reasons to execute him.

Heres a question though....who here belives making Alistair King is the best option?
Look at it from Alistairs point of view and the safty and protection of all of ferelden (Maric became King by wining a war to drive Orlais out of ferelden. Until then everyone in ferelden were slaves)
What would Half-Elf Alistair actualy want?

Considering what he does for the elves, I think Alistair is a good bet as King if his personality is hardened (you are in a Loghain position to make him a better King, after all). Paired with Anora, an astute politican who wants to build a university and manages to rebuild the capital and get funds, I think Ferelden is in good hands.

EccentricSage wrote...

Alistair believes some maid who died in childbirth was his mother, so I don't think Fiona has any baring on his perspective.  We don't even know for sure if he is Fiona's child, though I'd like it to be true and would love any new content in which he is reunited with his mother who COULD still be alive. 

That aside, I don't think Alistair is the ideal King... not by a longshot.  While he is kind and well intentioned, he's much like his father in his distaste for being in leadership possitions. 

Only if his personality isn't hardened. Then he studies governance and works to be a good King because it's what he wants.

EccentricSage wrote...

 It does not come naturaly to him.  He also has MORE of a tendancy towards racial and religeous bias than Meric had. 

Why do you think this? He admits his horror at the one Harrowing he witnessed (and said it's why he no longer wanted to be a templar). He talks with distain at the lyrium addiction the Chantry forces on templars (and doubts if it even improves their abilities). He doesn't talk down to a mage elf with any racial or magical bias.

EccentricSage wrote...
 
think he'd be smarter and more involved than Cailan, which is good, but I think he would let the influence of the Bannorns and Tyrns  and chantry get in the way of possitive changes in Ferelden.  I think this is evident in how he is rude and hateful towards Morrigan the verry moment she shows up, before she even gets a chance to pick on him, for one example.  Even though he hated being raised by the chantry and didn't want to be a templar, he still lets their teachings dictate a lot of who he is and how he reacts to others.  He is not a man prone to introspection and does not seem verry self aware.  That makes him week and maliable to the influence of those he will doubtlessly seek councel from.  I would sooner see Zevran king of Ferelden.  LOL 

But I would rather have him rule than Anora, whom I don't trust at all.  I like to make my HN King or Queen, or make my other characters Tyrn, etc.  I like to set it up in some way that ensures he'll have the support of a trusted friend in the political arena.  I also like to have Zevran stay if possible, because he is cunning, pragmatic, and at the core of his being actually a really compassionate person.  A powerful ally to have advising the throne, ready to take care of any problematic politicians who try to undermine our agenda.  And one who is worthy of a place of honor in society and some luxury after what he's been through and for his loyalty to his new friends.

So... that is my take on the whole leadership in Ferelden issue.

When my Mage confronted Alistair about whether Jowan should be let go or killed, Alistair admitted he wouldn't kill him (after getting the aid of the Circle). His conversations about the Chantry show he doesn't like them very much, actually. There are some ideals he holds, true (like view on blood magic) but a lot more is different from the perspective held by someone like Leliana (especially in the scene when you speak with the female blood mage at the tower - he knows their bias towards mages).

As for the human nobles being able to bully or persuade the King, Alistair is willing to put the Elder in the royal court in face of it being a scandal to the nobility. I don't think he'd be as weak as you might think. And he's willing to grant a Mage independence for the Circle from the Chantry despite (or because of) his history as a templar.

I certainly think Anora is a capable leader, but considering the fate of the alienage, isn't hardened Alistair and Anora the best pair? Dalish get a new homeland, the city elves finally get treated like actual people and get a place on the royal court, the capital is rebuilt and new funds are gained.

[errant_knight]

Well, that depends entirely on what your character is trying to achieve, and how much Alistair's (or Anora's) happiness matter to them. Personally, I think you get a fine result by making Alistair king alone when hardened, and don't want to make two people marry who abhor the idea. I find that particularly sad for Alistair since relationships/family mean so much to him. Anora is more pragmatic, but making her marry a man who is so much like her dead husband and only friend...it doesn't seem good to me.