1092 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

I see your point, but as a Grey Warden and as King of Ferelden, he has a limited lifespan, he needs to marry someone capable of running the nation when his calling comes, and he doesn't have much time to have a child. It might not be the most ideal, but they can make Ferelden a much better place. As for a family, while Eamon claimed Anora was barren, her husband wasn't able to have a child with any of his mistresses, so it's entirely possible she can have children.

[Addai]

EccentricSage wrote...
 He also has MORE of a tendancy towards racial and religeous bias than Meric had. 

I'm curious where you get that??  Particularly the racial part.

[MKDAWUSS]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Khavos wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If Howe killed the last Cousland and if Duncan wasn't there to testify against Howe (we clearly see Howe becoming worried when he saw Duncan), the idiot Cailan would not have found out what happened.

And yay, another thread trying to dictate how others ought to play the game. How original.

Sorry, I don't buy that.  There's a rather limited number of stories Howe could've come up with for how he suddenly acquired the Couslands' lands, and in none of them is, "I slaughtered everyone," a remotely sane action to have taken.

- Bandits raided, I tried to save them but couldn't.
- The Couslands were traitors to Ferelden. Planned to declare independence or something to that effect.
- Revolt or mutiny in Highever. The Couslands died before being saved
....etc etc.

Tons of different ways Howe could have justified / hid what he did to the half wit Cailan, as Duncan himself suggested.

You can chosoe not to buy it of course, and I will not waste my time trying to convince you otherwise. In my mind, the issue is clear. And at the end, the game will depend on our different perspectives.

I think Bodahn/Bartender provides some of the "official lines" as to what happened in Highever, but I could be wrong.

[Dean_the_Young]

I have confidence I've heard that the official line is 'bandits attacked the keep, how sad', but I can't remember where in the male noble origin it's mentioned.

[Aurelet]

Sarah1281 wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 But the entire army wouldn't need to be killed, just Fergus so he can't be the Teyrn. Howe just needs an explanation for why he left the castle after the army did (getting a message that the state of his troops was worse than he thought and he needed to personally go deal with it, for example) and then he can simply not know anything about the attack.

To me that sounds a little far fetched and it'd take someone phenomenally gullible to fall for it. So yeah Caillan would probably have bought it and Loghain and Anora wouldn't have cared enough to look into it. 

What's so far-fetched about it? The Couslands are discovered dead, if Fergus hasn't been killed yet he demands to know wha happened from Howe, Howe explains that the forces Fergus already knew were delayed had more problems and he left shortly after Fergus did. It's a huge leap from 'Howe left for a legitimate-sounding reason' to 'a close family friend murdered everyone in the castle so that he could take over the teynir.'

But then what happened to Bryce who was going to travel to Ostagar with Howe?

[Sarah1281]

Bryce stayed behind at Highever as he wasn't leaving until the next day. He stayed and was slaughtered with the rest of his family while Howe was racing off to join his held-up troops.

[Aurelet]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bryce stayed behind at Highever as he wasn't leaving until the next day. He stayed and was slaughtered with the rest of his family while Howe was racing off to join his held-up troops.

He was leaving the Next day WITH HOWE.

[Giggles_Manically]

"History is written by the victor"



Howe and Loghain were heros at the start of the game, whatever they said most people would agree with since they were great heros from the Rebellion.

If any nobles disagreed they would look stupid for doing so against Loghain.

[Sarah1281]

Aurelet wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bryce stayed behind at Highever as he wasn't leaving until the next day. He stayed and was slaughtered with the rest of his family while Howe was racing off to join his held-up troops.

He was leaving the Next day WITH HOWE.

Yeah, I know that. The extra emphasis like I'm missing a really obvious fact is quite unnecessary. The idea is that after Fergus left, at which point ideally there would be no witnesses to dispute this claim, Howe receives a message from his men. His troops are further delayed. He goes to sort it out leaving Bryce behind at Highever. The Couslands are massacred after he leaves.

[TJPags]

Yea, not hard to accept that Howe could come up with a believable story. Of course, he had to have had a plan to off Fergus, too, since he wasn't at Highever.

[FiliusMartis]

I accept that Howe could come up with a believable story as to what happened to the Couslands, but I wonder how he would explain seizing their lands and titles.

[Sarah1281]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I accept that Howe could come up with a believable story as to what happened to the Couslands, but I wonder how he would explain seizing their lands and titles.

He doesn't have to seize anything. Once the Couslands were massacred and Fergus quietly done away with, the Howes were the next-biggest family in the region so the titles would fall to them. I mean, who else would they give them to? A bann? 

[FiliusMartis]

Given that Maric declared Loghain a teyrn and all, I was under the impression that titles and lands would be handed out by the king in such situations. Furthermore, at the end of the game the ruling monarch hands out Howe's old Arl... whoever's around doesn't just pick his stuff up. A lower lord probably wouldn't have the right to just promote himself. Not to mention, Fergus is not quietly done away with, he's unaccounted for but still the legal heir.



A teyrn's position is dependent upon oaths from banns and arls, if the king doesn't hand the title out then it would seem like something to be settled at a Landsmeet. Howe declaring himself teyrn doesn't strike me as a legal move, but whatever.

[Sarah1281]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Given that Maric declared Loghain a teyrn and all, I was under the impression that titles and lands would be handed out by the king in such situations. Furthermore, at the end of the game the ruling monarch hands out Howe's old Arl... whoever's around doesn't just pick his stuff up. A lower lord probably wouldn't have the right to just promote himself. Not to mention, Fergus is not quietly done away with, he's unaccounted for but still the legal heir.

A teyrn's position is dependent upon oaths from banns and arls, if the king doesn't hand the title out then it would seem like something to be settled at a Landsmeet. Howe declaring himself teyrn doesn't strike me as a legal move, but whatever.

Howe probably didn't just declare himself Teyrn in-game. Loghain, as regent, likely approved of the promotion and had everything gone as planned then Loghain would still do so. Since Howe knew that Fergus was leaving with the bulk of the Highever forces and his whole plan depended on only a few people staying behind, we can safely assume that he had a backup plan for killing Fergus were he not presumed dead at Ostagar.

[Khavos]

Again, Gaider has confirmed that Loghain's coup was in the works prior to Ostagar, that Eamon was poisoned well before Ostagar, and that Loghain and Howe were politically in bed together for quite some time. Did Loghain tell Howe to off the Couslands? Possibly, possibly not. Howe was certainly aware of the impending coup though, and whether or not he would've slaughtered the Couslands without knowing about it is an academic question; he did know about it.

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

Again, Gaider has confirmed that Loghain's coup was in the works prior to Ostagar, that Eamon was poisoned well before Ostagar, and that Loghain and Howe were politically in bed together for quite some time. Did Loghain tell Howe to off the Couslands? Possibly, possibly not. Howe was certainly aware of the impending coup though, and whether or not he would've slaughtered the Couslands without knowing about it is an academic question; he did know about it.

...Okay. I don't actually think that was what anyone was talking about but rather 'how could Howe get away with it.'

[FiliusMartis]

I think... think maybe Khavos is insinuating that Howe couldn't get away with it without Loghain's help which makes Loghain partly responsible. Correct me if I'm wrong, Khavos.

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 ...Okay. I don't actually think that was what anyone was talking about but rather 'how could Howe get away with it.'

I could've sworn this started as a Loghain thread.

I also thought it might be helpful to point out that discussing how Howe could've gotten away with it is a little unnecessary, as we know how he got away with it: he knew Loghain was planning a coup and he was already Loghain's ally.  That's, no question, how he got away with it.  Isn't how he theoretically could've gotten away with it if that wasn't true a bit of a pointless discussion? 

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 ...Okay. I don't actually think that was what anyone was talking about but rather 'how could Howe get away with it.'

I could've sworn this started as a Loghain thread.

I also thought it might be helpful to point out that discussing how Howe could've gotten away with it is a little unnecessary, as we know how he got away with it: he knew Loghain was planning a coup and he was already Loghain's ally.  That's, no question, how he got away with it.  Isn't how he theoretically could've gotten away with it if that wasn't true a bit of a pointless discussion? 

You could have just said you wanted everyone to get back on topic. What-if's aren't any more pointless than anything else. Although, really, we already have a Loghain thread going. Is it really that big of a deal if one of them starts talking about something else? 

[Xandurpein]

While I enjoy this kind of debates as long as they can be kept civil, I think it's always sad whenever someone reasons with statements like "I can't understand how anyone could ever want to kill/save/redeem this or that character." To me it just shows a closed mind not willing or able to think out of his or her own world of preconceptions.

I can think of many different scenarios for why someone, out of a sense of morality and justice, would want to kill Loghain on the spot, but also decide to allow him to join as a recruit to he Grey Wardens. It depends on so many different things.

How does you (your character) feel about the Grey Wardens? Do you think becoming a Grey Warden is an honor (like Alistair do) or do you feel it's a punishment. I can see many good reasons why both views could be perfectly viable. There is no "good" or "evil" to such a feeling, but it can certainly affect your decision about Loghain's fate.

What is your personal sense of justice? Justice is NOT an absolute, however much we want to believe so. How do you (your character) feels about capital punishment? Personally I'm against it, but I don't call people evil just because they feel differently. Do you believe in eye-for-an-eye justice or in redeeming criminals so they can contribute to society?

A human noble can marry Anora and feel honor bound to do what he can to use "minimum force" in stopping Loghain, for her sake.

Sparing Loghain or not is not a simple choice between "good" and "evil". It's a question that can have everything to do with your personal sense of justice, whatever it may be, or it can be question of political expediency. Either way it will have different answers for different people and for different reasons. Just because one person can't see myself ever sparing him, doesn't mean someone else isn't justified in doing so, or that one of them needs to have made an "evil" choice.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 août 2010 - 06:52 .

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

FiliusMartis wrote...

I accept that Howe could come up with a believable story as to what happened to the Couslands, but I wonder how he would explain seizing their lands and titles.

He doesn't have to seize anything. Once the Couslands were massacred and Fergus quietly done away with, the Howes were the next-biggest family in the region so the titles would fall to them. I mean, who else would they give them to? A bann? 

I would think it entirely possible. Look what happened to Loghain: Became a Teryn built up from common origin.

Personally I'm against it, but I don't call people evil just because they feel differently.

Again think about Ostagar. Weak fighters would have been called cowards and/or deserters. Someone of his martial prowess does not make sense to turn his back. He had some sort of malicious intention in seizing the throne by leaving Ostagar.

Do you believe in eye-for-an-eye justice or in redeeming criminals so they can contribute to society?

I am a big fan of both. I believe that the justice displayed depends on cause and effect. What was the cause of an individual's madness? What kind of chaos has that individual wreaked upon society? In my opinion, Loghain's cause was modest (I can understand his fear against the Orlesians, but that didn't warrant his leaving Cailan to die and feeling important to rule the throne with his daughter). His effect was the reason why I believed him beyond the redemption meter; Thousands of lives lost outweigh the costs of his victory against the Orlesians 30 years ago, and thus the loss at Ostagar would have made Ferelden plummet underneath the boots of the darkspawn if not for my Warden. Best to amputate an infected limb and move on.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 06 août 2010 - 07:26 .

[CalJones]

jln.francisco wrote...
True, Loghain was very respected but I doubt Howe was everyone's bff. The man had to have been working to expand his power for ages and you don't do that without tipping someone off or making a long list of enemies. That said, I'd have to agree with you. Few would dare question either man and those who are smart enough to see through it wouldn't care (namely Loghain and Anora) as it would only diminish their own power.

If you listen to the conversations between the nobles in the Gnawed Noble Tavern (after Howe's death), none of them seems particularly broken up over it. In retrospect, Loghain couldn't have picked a worse ally. Except perhaps Uldred... For a strategic genius he seems to be a remarkably poor judge of character.

[CalJones]

Bahlgan wrote...

I am a big fan of both. I believe that the justice displayed depends on cause and effect. What was the cause of an individual's madness? What kind of chaos has that individual wreaked upon society? In my opinion, Loghain's cause was modest (I can understand his fear against the Orlesians, but that didn't warrant his leaving Cailan to die and feeling important to rule the throne with his daughter). His effect was the reason why I believed him beyond the redemption meter; Thousands of lives lost outweigh the costs of his victory against the Orlesians 30 years ago, and thus the loss at Ostagar would have made Ferelden plummet underneath the boots of the darkspawn if not for my Warden. Best to amputate an infected limb and move on.

There are many ways to view it, all valid. I'll admit I am more sympathetic towards Loghain but I don't condone all of his actions - many are undeniably reprehensible. However, I can't disagree with his decision to pull out of Ostagar, whether or not it was a deliberate ploy to get Cailan killed (and honestly, I don't think it was, given that he tried to talk Cailan out of joining the wardens on the front lines). We don't know enough about the battle to judge whether it was winnable or not. We do know the beacon was late being lit, but as we can't see the battlefield, it's impossible to tell whether the battlefield was already swarmed by the darkspawn or not. The cutscene seems to suggest that Cailan died almost as soon as the beacon was lit which may indicate that Loghain's troops couldn't have reached him in time anyway. This is all conjecture, of course, and you can interpret it however you wish.
Still, my feeling is that, intentional or not, Cailan's death was a good thing for Fereldan, especially if you factor in the correspondance that appears in Return to Ostagar. My views on the Orlesians are a little biased from reading the books but I cannot see that any kind of alliance between Orlais and Fereldan would have worked out in Fereldan's favour. Cailan was a naive ****** of a king and his removal was, in my opinion, no bad thing.
I'm also firmly on Loghain's side when it comes to refusing entry to the chevaliers. Were I a Fereldan woman, there's no way I would want several legions of heavily armoured rapists roaming the countryside.
On the other hand, Loghain is too focussed on the Orlesians to see the darkspawn as the immediate danger. That's Loghain's chief failing and one of the reasons he cannot remain in power. But the fact remains that he has done a lot for Fereldan, and he is the reason the Theirin bloodline exists at all. Do I believe he deserves a second chance? Absolutely. The Landsmeet is the wake up call he needs and beyond this point he appears both reasonable and willing to make amends. 
Removing an infected limb is one thing, but in Loghain's case I see killing him as something akin to amputating a leg due to an ingrowing toenail.