1092 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

A thought I just had.

Orlais is really no different in it's treatment of women than Fereldans. As we know from the City Elf Origin story, Fereldan soldiers are more then willing to rape and murder innocent Fereldan women. One of the women you meet even goes as far as to confide her fear that should she leave for Ostagar with her family there's no telling what the soldiers their might do to her.

That is elven women, and it is at least frowned upon. In Orlais that is perfectly legal with any woman.

 Unless they're a noble. The nobility that allow the Chevaliers to do this don't want to risk themselves or their wives/sisters/daughters getting raped and allowing the Chevaliers to do that would imply that they are of a higher station than the nobles themselves.

[maxernst]

jln.francisco wrote...

CalJones wrote...
I'm also firmly on Loghain's side when it comes to refusing entry to the chevaliers. Were I a Fereldan woman, there's no way I would want several legions of heavily armoured rapists roaming the countryside.

I feel for you and believe me when I say that I find the Orlaisian army wholly repulsive. Their disregard for women is why I viewed the Gray Warden's with such skepticism my first play through (my feelings are unchanged) but I will not deny even them the right to defend themselves from a Blight. Would it have been difficult to monitor them? No doubt. But I don't believe Cailan would be one to tolerate such things done to anyone. When a City Elf confronts him about her cousin being raped and almost killed by Vaughn he reacts with genuine shock and revulsion. He seems entirely willing to go out and see justice done.

He maybe naive but Cailan seems to have a very strong sense of right and wrong.

I have a question for those more knowledgable of Loghain then myself. Does he ever share his history (especially the parts concerning Orlais) with Cailan? My uninformed opinion is that the King would have been much less likely to allow chevaliers into Fereldan had he known what they were like. Cailan seems to be kept largely in the dark about what goes on throughout Fereldan. Knowledge of the state of mages, city elves and the people beyond his borders seems to be kept from him. (Possibly owing to Anora.)

It's very, very unlikely that Cailan is not well aware of the history of the Orlesians in Ferelden.  However, I see this as evidence that unlike Loghain, Cailan does take the Blight seriously...so much so that he's even willing to ally with an ancient enemy.  Cailan has a fallback plan--if he loses at Ostagar, Ferelden can still be saved by the troops in reserve (Eammon's) combined with the Orlesians and the Wardens.  Admittedly, Cailan does seem like a bit of a fool at Ostagar, but he has made preparations for Ferelden's defense.  The only thing he doesn't prepare for (and this is really impalusible, in my opinion) is a succession plan...though I've always suspected the reason Alistair is sent to light the beacon is to try and keep him out of the battle.

People give Cailan a lot of flack for leading the charge, but in context, I don't think it would be seen as a foolish thing to do.  Leadership on the battlefield was viewed as a very important part of being a King. 

[Sarah1281]

It's very, very unlikely that Cailan is not well aware of the history of the Orlesians in Ferelden. However, I see this as evidence that unlike Loghain, Cailan does take the Blight seriously...so much so that he's even willing to ally with an ancient enemy.

He was trying to have a permanent alliance before hearing of the Blight, however. There's also a difference between hearing 'oh, the Orlesians occupied our land and were awful so we drove them out' and Loghain explaining how the Orlesians made him watch as they raped his mother, killed his father, abused his dog, had Cailan's grandmother killed, sought to capture and then kill Maric...it might lend a more personal touch to it and I don't really think Cailan heard that story from Loghain or Maric. He's far too dismissive of Loghain's worries and cavalier about the whole situation to really understand why Loghain won't let it go.

[Marcy3655]

not on topic sorry I know, but I am wondering if you tell Alistair to hit the road does that drastically change the rest of the game or no...

[LobselVith8]

Marcy3655 wrote...

not on topic sorry I know, but I am wondering if you tell Alistair to hit the road does that drastically change the rest of the game or no...

Are you talking about angering Alistair while you're travelling with him? Unlike the other companions who travel with you (like Leliana and Zevran), Alistair won't leave. He will tell you that you're dishonoring Duncan's memory, but Alistair won't leave because of it.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 07 août 2010 - 04:26 .

[Herr Uhl]

jln.francisco wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
That is elven women, and it is at least frowned upon. In Orlais that is perfectly legal with any woman.

Maybe it's my simple nature but I don't see how this would make Fereldan better then Orlais.

It is the difference between someone getting away with murder and someone being sanctioned to murder.

[LobselVith8]

Marcy3655 wrote...

not on topic sorry I know, but I am wondering if you tell Alistair to hit the road does that drastically change the rest of the game or no...

If you meant choosing between Alistair and Loghain, Loghain starts off with Champion and his conversations give you more insight into his character, as well as his view on Anora and his thoughts on what happened. Interesting dialogue when he speaks to Dog, too.

[Herr Uhl]

jln.francisco wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
That is elven women, and it is at least frowned upon. In Orlais that is perfectly legal with any woman.

Maybe it's my simple nature but I don't see how this would make Fereldan better then Orlais.

It is the difference between someone getting away with murder and someone being sanctioned to murder.

When no one well do anything about the murder anyway, how is the situation any different?

If someone of greater or equal influence heard about it, there would be trouble for him. There is a reason that he kills witnesses.

How common do you think it is? You seem to think that every bann rapes elves to his delight.

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

A thought I just had.

Orlais is really no different in it's treatment of women than Fereldans. As we know from the City Elf Origin story, Fereldan soldiers are more then willing to rape and murder innocent Fereldan women. One of the women you meet even goes as far as to confide her fear that should she leave for Ostagar with her family there's no telling what the soldiers their might do to her.

There are abuses in Ferelden, of course, but the big difference is that in Orlais they don't just look the other way: Chevaliers raping non-nobles is legally sanctioned by the Orlesian government. They could just go the marketplace and start assaulting someone right in front of everybody and have it all be perfectly kosher on the legal front. In Ferelden, even Vaughan makes sure that no one knows anything about his activities besides rumors from people who came across the bodies he disposed of.

The scene you describe is the very setting of the City Elf Origin. While it is 'frowned upon' it seemed perfectly legal for Vaughn to walk into the Alienage grab all the women and kidnap them. He was accompanied by Denerim soldiers who no doubt doubled as the city's police force. Also the Chantry Sister's inaction suggests to me there is nothing she could do about it meaning this has happened before and no one was held accountable for it.

You seem to be more informed about the game's lore then myself. Do you know how the populace of Orlais views the chevalier's crimes? I know we hear from that one Orlesian woman in the market but she seems to be in a situation similiar to the women of the Alienage and therefore more likely to be aware of such abuses.

Looking at the origin again, you're right that there are four guards with Vaughan. I'd wager, though, that he couldn't just choose any four and expect them to keep their mouth shut (and while I'm sure it could be more in-game but they only show four due to game mechanics, the fact that most people don't do anything because they know who he is makes me think it really could just be the four) but he picked four that he knew were corrupt enough to go along with it.

I'm sure not every Chevalier is rape-happy but the fact that it's legal for them in Orlais, while it may be the tipping point some morally bankrupt men need in order to actually do it, is not enough to cause men who have no interest in forcing themselves on others to do so. It's not legal for Vaughan to do what he did which is why, as the CE origin showed, it's been hidden. Everyone's well-aware of what's happening when he comes back with guards in the middle of a wedding...but that's payback for Shianni attacking him which I'm sure has never happened before. Earlier it was just him and two of his buddies trying to kidnap someone without everyone being aware and dragging her back to the estate and before then the rumors we've heard are about servants already up at the estate.

It might not make a difference to you but I feel that it's one thing to know that rape happens and some celebrities do it and manage to flee the country or otherwise work around the legal system and don't face justice. It would be quite another if celebrities could legally go out, find a non-celebrity and rape her and no matter how many people knew about it and how much ironclad proof there is nothing could be done because they've legally done nothing wrong. In that, yes, Ferelden can claim the moral high ground.

PC: Where are you from?
Liselle: I am from Orlais. You've heard of us, no? This Denerim is a fine city, but I miss my Val Royeaux. She's quite beautiful this time of year.
PC: Why did you leave?
Liselle: Orlais has many, many good things--but it is sometimes not so good to be... common? My brother had trouble with a chevalier and we departed shortly after.
PC: What's a chevalier?
Liselle: You know so little of Orlais here. The chevaliers are knights of the highest order. They are the most skilled in the world, their discipline formidable. For their service, they're allowed... privileges. They can do <emp>whatever</emp> they want to the lesser-born.
PC: Why do people put up with them?
Liselle: Because there is little choice. There are so many wonderful things about Orlais, but Ferelden has something precious. Here a man, or a woman, is born free and lives free. I do not understand it, but the nobles here are not so high. And none of us are quite so low. As much as I miss my Val Royeaux, I <emp>love</emp> where I am.
PC: Yes, my people are so <emp>free</emp> locked in their alienages.
Liselle: I know it's hard to believe, but elves are far better off here than in Orlais. Perhaps my excuse is feeble, but it is better here--for everyone.
PC: What sort of trouble did you get in?
Liselle: A chevalier... took an interest in me. It was his right, but it was unwelcome. Incensed, my brother hit him over the head with a pot. Such a thing is almost treason. We left that very night and came here.
PC: Those beasts are allowed to rape women?
Liselle: That and more. Some revere them for their skill and their high service. But others tread lightly. As lightly as the mouse in the cat's den. If you will excuse me. I-I feel a touch light-headed.

[LobselVith8]

jln.francisco wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
That is elven women, and it is at least frowned upon. In Orlais that is perfectly legal with any woman.

Maybe it's my simple nature but I don't see how this would make Fereldan better then Orlais.

It is the difference between someone getting away with murder and someone being sanctioned to murder.

When no one will do anything about the murder anyway, how is the situation any different?

That's why I think it's important to see (hardened) Alistair as King. Even though his father had a relationship with an elf, Maric didn't do anything to change how they are treated. No one really gives a damn about them in Ferelden.

[Herr Uhl]

If I have to see rights in a cross between humans and elves in Ferelden and Orlais. In Orlais elves are cattle, as in Ferelden, they have slightly more rights than human commoners in Orlais.

[Bahlgan]

We do know the beacon was late being lit, but as we can't see the battlefield, it's impossible to tell whether the battlefield was already swarmed by the darkspawn or not. The cutscene seems to suggest that Cailan died almost as soon as the beacon was lit which may indicate that Loghain's troops couldn't have reached him in time anyway.

I am sorry, but I do not remember the beacon being lit at the same time Cailan died. Of course this is my opinion, and how I interpreted it through the cutscenes. Now, Duncan was still alive although heavily wounded by the time HE noticed it was already lit, but who is to say the beacon couldn't have been lit a solitary 5 mins or so before Cailan's death, and before drawing the attention of Duncan and the others?

Also, remember that Darkspawn are not that great unless they got high numbers. For Darkspawn, it's always numbers. Remember that.

This is all conjecture, of course, and you can interpret it however you wish.

DISCLAIMER: You might hate me after the rest of my responses, but I will not be an entirely horrible person about it either, so you may rest easy, however...... V

Cailan was a naive ****** of a king and his removal was, in my opinion, no bad thing.

Believe me, I also can comprehend with how far too idealistic Cailan was, but the way you are addressing your statement makes you sound like the rest of the diehard Loghain fans who would claim "he deserved his fate and 10 times worse". That's just completely cold and by itself irrational. Maybe you meant it and maybe you didn't, but those who carry the attitude as I described are no better than Cailan himself.

I'm also firmly on Loghain's side when it comes to refusing entry to the chevaliers. Were I a Fereldan woman, there's no way I would want several legions of heavily armoured rapists roaming the countryside.

Still, despite his rationality on the Chevaliers, which I DO understand, does not justify his actions, for many more were slain and by darkspawn, who FED on the bodies, NO ONE deserves such a desecrated ending. Rapists are horrible.... But so are cannibals, and even more so if I might be cocky to dare..Ask Leatherface.

Summing that statement up, Loghain should have just swallowed it up like a big man and at least waited until the moment of the Fifth Blight's end and at least seen whether or not they would have attacked. As I mentioned many times, the worst that could have happened is that Loghain and the forces of Ferelden could have just slain the Chevaliers, by tactical means, and use the event as the perfect leverage to never trust them again... EVER...

On the other hand, Loghain is too focussed on the Orlesians to see the darkspawn as the immediate danger. That's Loghain's chief failing and one of the reasons he cannot remain in power. But the fact remains that he has done a lot for Fereldan, and he is the reason the Theirin bloodline exists at all.

I haven't read the book TST and I plan to soon, but for now I am confused as to how his actions preserved the Therein bloodline. Even still, I call that ironic, due to Cailan's death. 

His heroics against the Orlesian Emporer and his troops at River Dane make him a hero indeed, and a very immoral target to kill whether or not corrupted by his blind rage and/or power-hungry will to rule the Throne. After all, ever since Maric died, he was probably planning to rule the throne since he never thought much of Cailan anyway, since he might have thought himself as the only one who saw Maric's ideals eye to eye. Can you really blame Cailan for his ideals? After all, a sapling reacts to how it is planted: poor or well. 

All that aside, I would say that killing Loghain was a hard decision to make after hearing of what happened to him; I even took the time to consider it in role playing with my Warden. It was his deliverance from Orlais which had earned him a quick and noble death (In my storyline, I removed from my head the event of Anora being covered in his own blood, and instead pictured Loghain being slit quickly)

Do I believe he deserves a second chance? Absolutely. The Landsmeet is the wake up call he needs and beyond this point he appears both reasonable and willing to make amends.

Warden *speaking to Sten in the cage in Lothering*: Don't you wish to do something to atone for your sins?
Sten: Death will be my atonement.
Warden: Now that I think of it, Loghain shall have his atonement through death.

Removing an infected limb is one thing, but in Loghain's case I see killing him as something akin to amputating a leg due to an ingrowing toenail.

I hardly consider (as monotonously stated before) the thousands of lives at Ostagar, Jowan, Eamon, Cailan, the several hanged soldiers of the Bannorn (starved to death, might I add), other Bannorn who were slaughtered, the elves of the Alienage being sold into Tevinter slavery, AND the murder of the Couslands to be an ingrown toenail.

Khavos wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
No, it's been confirmed that he wanted his men or Uldred at the tower IN CASE he needed an excuse to retreat.

So he wanted his men or Uldred at the tower in case he wanted to retreat.  Did he try to make that happen before the battle or during it? 

Thus his plan was in place prior to the battle.  I'm not sure why you're trying to contradict things you admit yourself. 

This, I agree with one hundred percent! There seems to be no one to admit the wrongs that Loghain has been setting this in motion for a long time now. That too is a sign of malignant behavior. Don't believe me? Ok, whatever, it's not like he wasn't planning on poisoning Arl Eamon as well. Perfectly rational to poison a pure hearted man such as he who had no ill signs of taking part of ruling beside Alistair over Ferelden, eh? Trying to justify the deaths of the thousands at Ostagar and poisoning the one person who could catch him with his pants down isn't a horrible and traitorous thing do at all. Come on guys really? 

That's another advantage Alistair has; he isn't corrupted by the experiences, minus his initial lack of willpower (which can be easily remedied by Anora) to rule the Throne, he also has excellent experience against Darkspawn and would make a peerless commander/King since Darkspawn are not present throughout all of Ferelden. Sure Loghain is more experienced in the general field of combat than Alistair, but I doubt that Alistair is anything near a spring chicken either, what with being in tournaments as well. Face it guys, with the death of Loghain there are two objectives being completed here: new heroes emerge to fight the Darkspawn who get to contribute to reshaping the ways of life in Ferelden, as well as the fall of a corrupt general. It's a win-win for everyone; I made sure even Anora wasn't entirely screwed over in my game, she got to keep her position as Queen. So for those who think, just in case, that I might be heartless because I killed someone who lost much against the Orlesians, consider my sympathy for his daughter.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 07 août 2010 - 03:04 .

[Sarah1281]

Eamon? Pure-hearted? That's a good one.

[Giggles_Manically]

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Eamon? Pure-hearted? That's a good one.

I wouldn't call Eamon pure hearted but he certainly didn't deserve to be poisoned. He was not a cruel or evil man. He was much to into tradition and that whole blood line thing but he seemed to be a good ruler who was well liked by his subjects.

Just listen to him if you dont put Alistair on the throne, and see if you still like him.

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Eamon? Pure-hearted? That's a good one.

I wouldn't call Eamon pure hearted but he certainly didn't deserve to be poisoned. He was not a cruel or evil man. He was much to into tradition and that whole blood line thing but he seemed to be a good ruler who was well liked by his subjects.

Just listen to him if you dont put Alistair on the throne, and see if you still like him.

I've never noticed him changing his attitude . . . . am I missing or forgetting something?

Modifié par TJPags, 07 août 2010 - 02:53 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Read a transcript a while back, could have been unimplemented like Kardol warning you that Oghern is trailing you if you dont accept him(Got cut).

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Eamon? Pure-hearted? That's a good one.

I wouldn't call Eamon pure hearted but he certainly didn't deserve to be poisoned. He was not a cruel or evil man. He was much to into tradition and that whole blood line thing but he seemed to be a good ruler who was well liked by his subjects.

Just listen to him if you dont put Alistair on the throne, and see if you still like him.

I've never noticed him changing his attitude . . . . am I missing or forgetting something?

If you have Alistair killed or exiled he really doesn't seem all that put-out about it. And there's a chance that he knew Connor was a mage and let Isolde cover it up (only a chance as this is only Loghain's theory as he doesn't think Eamon could be that oblivious). Not to mention what we know of Alistair's childhood...