887 réponses à ce sujet

[Vena_86]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

slimgrin, DA is a great game, no doubt. It's not particularly innovative (although I liked their relationship system, even if they botched it a little imo) but its Bioware's bread and butter formula and they did it well. It sold very well and was very highly rated.

ME is a different animal. It's Bioware branching out and trying new mechanics. It has sold very well and has been very well received. You can rail against it all you want, insisting that Bioware stick with their formula, never deviating, never innovating, but frankly, they're not going to listen to you. And at least he told you straight out that he won't listen to suggestions that insist on him sticking to traditional RPG micromanagement.

Yes, Casey spun and exaggarated. Stop staggering around like he personally stabbed you in the heart.

ME1 was far more innovative, in the way it mixed game mechanics to an extend that a straight categorization is hardly possible, while having some new approaches (hiding of leading screens) thrown in here and there.
ME2 on the other side is not innovative at all. Its a bad (and in comparison its really bad) Gears of War with good dialogue and N7 armor customization. That has nothing to do with trying out new stuff. All that it is is cloning what sells good at the moment and adding BioWares superb writing skills.
We will see how the initial sales of ME3 turn out, but I think this time more people will think twice before buying it.

[Terror_K]

Vena_86 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

slimgrin, DA is a great game, no doubt. It's not particularly innovative (although I liked their relationship system, even if they botched it a little imo) but its Bioware's bread and butter formula and they did it well. It sold very well and was very highly rated.

ME is a different animal. It's Bioware branching out and trying new mechanics. It has sold very well and has been very well received. You can rail against it all you want, insisting that Bioware stick with their formula, never deviating, never innovating, but frankly, they're not going to listen to you. And at least he told you straight out that he won't listen to suggestions that insist on him sticking to traditional RPG micromanagement.

Yes, Casey spun and exaggarated. Stop staggering around like he personally stabbed you in the heart.

ME1 was far more innovative, in the way it mixed game mechanics to an extend that a straight categorization is hardly possible, while having some new approaches (hiding of leading screens) thrown in here and there.
ME2 on the other side is not innovative at all. Its a bad (and in comparison its really bad) Gears of War with good dialogue and N7 armor customization. That has nothing to do with trying out new stuff. All that it is is cloning what sells good at the moment and adding BioWares superb writing skills.
We will see how the initial sales of ME3 turn out, but I think this time more people will think twice before buying it.

Exactly. ME2 was hardly an innovative game. Something different for BioWare... maybe. But scrapping everything that didn't work and replacing it with overly simple and unoriginal shooter mechanics isn't terribly innovative or fresh. Especially when they could have simply been tweaked and improved and we'd have a more functional and richer game for it.

Also, again, pointing at high ME2 sales only proves how mainstream the title has become and is not an indicator of quality or rich gameplay mechanics. You know what else sells well? Gears of War, Call of Duty, Halo, etc. So how does pointing to sales figures mean that ME2 isn't a shallower, dumbed-down game closer to a shooter than an RPG when its sales figures are getting closer to that of shallow shooters?

[Kolos2]

and ME1 was an Kotor clone , fact is ME2 was well accepted both critically or in sale numbers and i have no doubts ME3 will get the same. ME2 is in fact a Goty candidate

What the whiners here dont get, is that ME was designed as an action rpg, its entire success is based on that formula. Its all great that some are still humping their Baldurs Gate game boxes but it aint this game

So if you dont like the franchise dont buy it, just stop this pointless GoW whining

Modifié par Kolos2, 07 août 2010 - 08:54 .

[Terror_K]

Kolos2 wrote...

and ME1 was an Kotor clone , fact is ME2 was well accepted both critically or in sale numbers and i have no doubts ME3 will get the same. ME2 is in fact a Goty candidate

What the whiners here dont get, is that ME was designed as an action rpg, its entire success is based on that formula. Its all great that some are still humping their Baldurs Gate game boxes but it aint this game

So if you dont like the franchise dont buy it, just stop this pointless GoW whining

You're doing an outstanding job making the people on your side of the argument come across as mature, intelligent individuals. Keep up the good work. :innocent:

[Shadow555r]

Terror_K wrote...

Vena_86 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

slimgrin, DA is a great game, no doubt. It's not particularly innovative (although I liked their relationship system, even if they botched it a little imo) but its Bioware's bread and butter formula and they did it well. It sold very well and was very highly rated.

ME is a different animal. It's Bioware branching out and trying new mechanics. It has sold very well and has been very well received. You can rail against it all you want, insisting that Bioware stick with their formula, never deviating, never innovating, but frankly, they're not going to listen to you. And at least he told you straight out that he won't listen to suggestions that insist on him sticking to traditional RPG micromanagement.

Yes, Casey spun and exaggarated. Stop staggering around like he personally stabbed you in the heart.

ME1 was far more innovative, in the way it mixed game mechanics to an extend that a straight categorization is hardly possible, while having some new approaches (hiding of leading screens) thrown in here and there.
ME2 on the other side is not innovative at all. Its a bad (and in comparison its really bad) Gears of War with good dialogue and N7 armor customization. That has nothing to do with trying out new stuff. All that it is is cloning what sells good at the moment and adding BioWares superb writing skills.
We will see how the initial sales of ME3 turn out, but I think this time more people will think twice before buying it.

Exactly. ME2 was hardly an innovative game. Something different for BioWare... maybe. But scrapping everything that didn't work and replacing it with overly simple and unoriginal shooter mechanics isn't terribly innovative or fresh. Especially when they could have simply been tweaked and improved and we'd have a more functional and richer game for it.

Also, again, pointing at high ME2 sales only proves how mainstream the title has become and is not an indicator of quality or rich gameplay mechanics. You know what else sells well? Gears of War, Call of Duty, Halo, etc. So how does pointing to sales figures mean that ME2 isn't a shallower, dumbed-down game closer to a shooter than an RPG when its sales figures are getting closer to that of shallow shooters?

This. Now if we could combine elements from both ME1 and ME2 then ME3 would be an amazing.

[Jenova65]

''An awesome sense of exploration''??? Really? P'shawwwww.

As much as I love both games there is not nearly the sense of freedom in 2 that there should be, the Citadel in ME was large and felt large, you could use rapid transit, but you could also walk and take in the sights etc.

Not so in 2 not even nearly................... It all felt very claustrophobic to me, even down to not walking off the ship, and the end mission statement felt wrong. It annoyed me that we were pushed into some very dull and (again) claustrophobic environments.

I wanted to see Omega, Illium and return to wandering the Citadel. I know logically there were outdoor sections, but it didn't feel like iyswim? It felt (mostly) indoors on the major worlds.

Still love them both.

[VoidShaman]

"Look at me! I'm a critic! I like nothing! Tra-la-la!"

[Darth Drago]

I added this, from another thread, just slightly edited.

Casey Hudson:
"We plan out the larger plot points of the story from one game to the next, but it would be impossible to plan it all in advance," he told PC Zone issue 224 (in all good stores now, folks).

-I guess this explains why each game is going to be a stand alone game. If your working on a trilogy shouldn’t you have the main plot line (the larger plot points) worked out for the whole series? Shouldn’t there be a basic outline for what happens in this trilogy already established after ME1 was already done? Is this why ME2’s story so messed up and darker than ME1?

Casey Hudson:
"If you define an RPG as a game where you equip your hero by sifting through an inventory of hundreds of miscellaneous items and spend hours fiddling with numerical statistics, then Mass Effect 2 isn't one," he added.

"In Mass Effect 2 we focused on what we love about RPGs: An awesome sense of exploration, intense combat, a deep and non-linear story that's affected by your actions, and rich customisation of your armour, weapons and appearance…”

-I think I see the problem, they have no clue what a RPG is outside of their little boxed in Mass Effect world. So if you go by his statement, ME1 was a RPG and because ME2 has no inventory, its not? ME1 had a large inventory ME2 hasn’t got one… What numerical statistics is he referring to from any RPG game? I like statistics that tell me how many kills I’ve done, how far I’ve walked, number of locks I picked and so on. Is this what he means? If so you as a player don’t fiddle with any of them the game automatically does it for you. If its something like weapon damage and armor protection then where does he get all these hours spent fiddling with them. Its not rocket science to choose the beast weapon and armor out of a selection of them that best suits your needs.

-What awesome sense of exploration? All I see is small levels built to make everything a convenience for the player so they wont have to walk to far (to miss all the combat moments I guess) to do anything. Everything is practically given to you on a silver platter the moment you teleport off the Normandy when you dock. Just walk in a straight line and you meet the key person who has the info you need about recruiting and loyalty quests. If you imported a Shepard, you will bump into cameo appearances or rather they will bump into you since they are unavoidable and cant be missed.

-What non linear story that affected by what actions I make? All I recall is having to kill everyone I met, choosing an outcome for my loyalty missions that didn’t have any affect on the squad mate in question at all, a Geth issue to resolve, a genophage issue to resolve (that likely wont affect anything anyways) or whether to keep or destroy a Collector base. Not a lot really is there. So again, where is this deep and non-linear story that's affected by your actions? Nothing I do will likely result in much beyond getting a email message in ME3 anyways otherwise they wouldn’t be choose option “A“ or “B“ for them. Will keeping the Collector base really have a huge impact on what happens in ME3 over destroying it?

-What rich customization of your armor, weapons and appearance? A handful of armor pieces and weapon upgrades that I really didn’t notice even did anything is rich customization? The appearance thing is subjective if its supposed to mean how your Shepard’s look when you create him/her. He must be adding in all that downloadable stuff we've been nickel and dimed on right?

Is Casey even looking at ME2 when he made those comments? But then isn’t he the one that said planet scanning is fun and addictive (could be wrong on that though but someone in the ME2 Bioware team said it)?

[lovgreno]

If they improve a already good concept that is good enough for me. Some suprises would be nice too of course, but if it's not broke don't fix it.

[Lumikki]

lovgreno wrote...

If they improve a already good concept that is good enough for me. Some suprises would be nice too of course, but if it's not broke don't fix it.

How you define what's broken and needs fixing?

[Jenova65]

VoidShaman wrote...

"Look at me! I'm a critic! I like nothing! Tra-la-la!"

I hope your comment was not aimed at me, because I quite clearly stated that I love both games (twice) If it was aimed at me, I merely stated my opinion on ONE aspect that I preferred in the first, that hardly makes me a critic. If it wasn't at me then I apologise. 
It is however important to remember views other than your own are important too and because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't make them a critic, it just makes them a person with an opinion just like you 

[tonnactus]

Kolos2 wrote...

and ME1 was an Kotor clone ,

The sucess of that "kotor clone" make it possible to release a sequel...
That isnt more sucessfull then the first game when it comes to sales when considering preorders(what explain the little difference that mass effect 2 sold more in the same amount of time)...

Modifié par tonnactus, 07 août 2010 - 01:31 .

[bjdbwea]

Calling ME 1 a KotoR clone is questionable. But isn't pretty much every shooter a clone of the other too? Aren't people still buying them in record numbers?

[Meshakhad2]

In terms of RPG elements, I think they need to find a sweet spot between the two games.



As for combat, allow guns to switch back to the old-fashioned overheating system when they run out of heatsinks. One thing I loved about ME1 was that I never had to switch weapons because one was out of ammo - rather important to an Infiltrator. Overheating prevents players from firing endlessly.



As for the inventory, I'll take the ME2 version, thank you very much.

[Il Divo]

bjdbwea wrote...

Calling ME 1 a KotoR clone is questionable. But isn't pretty much every shooter a clone of the other too? Aren't people still buying them in record numbers?

His mostly idiotic post aside, I do agree with him that Mass Effect does feels like Kotor only without lightsabers, less remarkable characters, and instead uses Earth as a backdrop. It's standard Bioware excellence, but nothing we haven't seen before. The problem is that it always feels like the rpg elements and the shooter elements are fighting each other, rather than blending seemlessly which is essential for a hybrid game.

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 août 2010 - 02:08 .

[Whatever42]

Everyone is trying to come up with some "objective" evidence of why their opinion is the correct one. And everyone fails because all our opinion's are clearly subjective. We might as well be arguing that yellow is a better colour than orange and then doing a pixel by pixel analysis of the screen of why this pixel is better red than green. What's even funnier is even when both pixels are red, we still fight over which one is more red.



Maybe its because shooter fans have often insulted RPG games that causes RPG games to get prickly and defensive, I don't know. But in other genres, like strategy games, I've never seen this level of angst and emotion because one game has more micromanagement and another has less. I've never heard fans rage and try to throw a game out of the club because half the game wasn't about resource management.



But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are. They have received the criticisms from all the major game reviews, and the people who reviewed ME2 are usually RPG fans. They have all the data and they made their decision.



Haters can continue to post about why this pixel should be green instead of red until the cows come home, Bioware has already charted their path so perhaps people should do themselves a favour and deal with it.

[Il Divo]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Everyone is trying to come up with some "objective" evidence of why their opinion is the correct one. And everyone fails because all our opinion's are clearly subjective. We might as well be arguing that yellow is a better colour than orange and then doing a pixel by pixel analysis of the screen of why this pixel is better red than green. What's even funnier is even when both pixels are red, we still fight over which one is more red.

Maybe its because shooter fans have often insulted RPG games that causes RPG games to get prickly and defensive, I don't know. But in other genres, like strategy games, I've never seen this level of angst and emotion because one game has more micromanagement and another has less. I've never heard fans rage and try to throw a game out of the club because half the game wasn't about resource management.

But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are. They have received the criticisms from all the major game reviews, and the people who reviewed ME2 are usually RPG fans. They have all the data and they made their decision.

Haters can continue to post about why this pixel should be green instead of red until the cows come home, Bioware has already charted their path so perhaps people should do themselves a favour and deal with it.

Damn good post, gotta say.

[Dark Star]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Everyone is trying to come up with some "objective" evidence of why their opinion is the correct one. And everyone fails because all our opinion's are clearly subjective. We might as well be arguing that yellow is a better colour than orange and then doing a pixel by pixel analysis of the screen of why this pixel is better red than green. What's even funnier is even when both pixels are red, we still fight over which one is more red.

Maybe its because shooter fans have often insulted RPG games that causes RPG games to get prickly and defensive, I don't know. But in other genres, like strategy games, I've never seen this level of angst and emotion because one game has more micromanagement and another has less. I've never heard fans rage and try to throw a game out of the club because half the game wasn't about resource management.

But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are. They have received the criticisms from all the major game reviews, and the people who reviewed ME2 are usually RPG fans. They have all the data and they made their decision.

Haters can continue to post about why this pixel should be green instead of red until the cows come home, Bioware has already charted their path so perhaps people should do themselves a favour and deal with it.

\\thread 

[theelementslayer]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Everyone is trying to come up with some "objective" evidence of why their opinion is the correct one. And everyone fails because all our opinion's are clearly subjective. We might as well be arguing that yellow is a better colour than orange and then doing a pixel by pixel analysis of the screen of why this pixel is better red than green. What's even funnier is even when both pixels are red, we still fight over which one is more red.

Maybe its because shooter fans have often insulted RPG games that causes RPG games to get prickly and defensive, I don't know. But in other genres, like strategy games, I've never seen this level of angst and emotion because one game has more micromanagement and another has less. I've never heard fans rage and try to throw a game out of the club because half the game wasn't about resource management.

But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are. They have received the criticisms from all the major game reviews, and the people who reviewed ME2 are usually RPG fans. They have all the data and they made their decision.

Haters can continue to post about why this pixel should be green instead of red until the cows come home, Bioware has already charted their path so perhaps people should do themselves a favour and deal with it.

/thread

[Throw_this_away]

red pixels are better than orange for immersion.

[Throw_this_away]

Kolos2 wrote...

What the whiners here dont get, is that ME was designed as an action rpg, its entire success is based on that formula. Its all great that some are still humping their Baldurs Gate game boxes but it aint this game

I think this is the best couple of lines yet.  

[Il Divo]

slimgrin wrote...

Many perceive RPG's top be a dying genre, and Bioware as one of the few companies left still making them. I can't say for sure whether this is true or not, but it accounts for the passionate debate on these boards.

Fair enough. Unfortunately, Mass Effect tries to be too much like the typical Bioware rpg instead of expanding into something new. This was supposed to be Bioware stretching out into new waters with the new cinematic style and blending of the fps/rpg genres. It ultimately failed in all the new areas it was designed to succeed in. Dragon Age, in my opinion, was meant to be for the more traditional Bioware fans who prefer the silent protagonist, turn based combat, fantasy setting, etc. Mass Effect may have been a traditional Bioware rpg, but it didn't quite grasp what Bioware was trying to do and many fans forget that.

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 août 2010 - 02:21 .