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Mass effect 3 article: C. Hudson says not to expect them to reinvent the action-RPG gameplay


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#476
Throw_this_away

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slimgrin wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Everyone is trying to come up with some "objective" evidence of why their opinion is the correct one. And everyone fails because all our opinion's are clearly subjective. We might as well be arguing that yellow is a better colour than orange and then doing a pixel by pixel analysis of the screen of why this pixel is better red than green. What's even funnier is even when both pixels are red, we still fight over which one is more red.

Maybe its because shooter fans have often insulted RPG games that causes RPG games to get prickly and defensive, I don't know. But in other genres, like strategy games, I've never seen this level of angst and emotion because one game has more micromanagement and another has less. I've never heard fans rage and try to throw a game out of the club because half the game wasn't about resource management.

But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are. They have received the criticisms from all the major game reviews, and the people who reviewed ME2 are usually RPG fans. They have all the data and they made their decision.

Haters can continue to post about why this pixel should be green instead of red until the cows come home, Bioware has already charted their path so perhaps people should do themselves a favour and deal with it.


Many perceive RPG's to be a dying genre, and Bioware as one of the few companies left still making them. I can't say for sure whether this is true or not, but it accounts for the passionate debate on these boards.


I have always been a HUGE RPG fan.  Loved BG2.  Mass Effect came along and pretty much made a game that had all of the elements that made a RPG fun for me... and than added some slick action and 1st rate graphics to the picture.  ME1/2 were the first shooters that I actually finished.... and multiple times on top of that.  Top 2 games ever in my books. 

The game I am looking forward to now is the new X-Com... because enemy unknown and terror from the teep were near perfect games in my books.  I hope they can find a good action/classic X-Com ballance there. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 07 août 2010 - 02:25 .


#477
Il Divo

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slimgrin wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...



Kolos2 wrote...

What the whiners here dont get, is that ME was designed as an action rpg, its entire success is based on that formula. Its all great that some are still humping their Baldurs Gate game boxes but it aint this game


I think this is the best couple of lines yet.  :wub:


I've never played Baldur's Gate, but I've been known to cuddle with my ME1 box on occasion. In private, that is...:bandit:


Go. Go now and get on that ****. Baldur's Gate is calling to you. She wants to be found.

#478
Throw_this_away

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Il Divo wrote...

Fair enough. Unfortunately, Mass Effect tries to be too much like the typical Bioware rpg instead of expanding into something new. This was supposed to be Bioware stretching out into new waters with the new cinematic style and blending of the fps/rpg genres. It ultimately failed in all the new areas it was designed to succeed in. Dragon Age, in my opinion, was meant to be for the more traditional Bioware fans who prefer the silent protagonist, turn based combat, fantasy setting, etc. Mass Effect may have been a traditional Bioware rpg, but it didn't quite grasp what Bioware was trying to do and many fans forget that.


I think ME1/2's mix of RPG/action is the perfect blend of the best of the two genres.  For me, that resulted in a VERY addictive, enjoyable, and replayable game.  

I just don't have the attention span for action games without deep characters/story, or RPG's that feel "empty" and lifeless even if the world is vast and open.

In the end... I think the ME series is what it is because the characters seem so real.  Between voice acting, graphics, gestures, and movie like camera work... I just find myself beleaving the ME world more than other games.  To me that is immersion.  That is more RPG than any RPG I have played.  

#479
Whatever42

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slimgrin wrote...

Many perceive RPG's to be a dying genre, and Bioware as one of the few companies left still making them. I can't say for sure whether this is true or not, but it accounts for the passionate debate on these boards.


I would be very, very, very, very sad if Bioware stopped making traditional RPG games. I could probably even throw in a few more "very's" into that sentence. Several more actually.

I have my DA, though. I guess I just don't feel threatened. I don't see a slippery slope. But I can see how angst could arise. I'm actually more worried about TOR. MMO's are the devil, full of depravity and sin! :devil:

#480
Il Divo

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Throw_this_away wrote...

In the end... I think the ME series is what it is because the characters seem so real.  Between voice acting, graphics, gestures, and movie like camera work... I just find myself beleaving the ME world more than other games.  To me that is immersion.  That is more RPG than any RPG I have played.  


I think this hits on a very important issue; Mass Effect 2 actually brought to life the 'cinematic style' that we were supposed to receive with Mass Effect. Camera pans, character interactions, etc, all these issues should have been addressed when they took on the cinematic approach. Mass Effect conversations, aside from lip synching, play out in a very similar fashion to Jade Empire/Kotor. Mass Effect, while fun, still follows the pace and style of traditional Bioware games, which I thought was not their intention with the game.

Whatever wrote...
I'm actually more worried about TOR. MMO's are the devil, full of depravity and sin! :devil: 


I am actually very worried too. Starcraft II is the first actual game Blizzard has released since WoW came out in 2004. I don't want to see this happening with Bioware once Old Republic comes out. I know I'll play it, but I would have much preferred a Kotor 3.

Edit: It's also why I'm partially worried with Dragon Age 2, which I hoped would be for more traditional Bioware fans. I'm going to wait to hear what's going on before causing any trouble, but I do hope it's going to be more than just a Mass Effect set in Ferelden.

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 août 2010 - 02:40 .


#481
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ME1 was my reintroduction into gaming, my first RPG, and my first next-gen computer game. Prior to that, my last home gaming experiences were with the NES. You can imagine the impact ME1 had on my brain. Picture the ape touching the monolith in 2001 and you have a pretty good picture.



I enjoyed ME2 as well, although it didn't have the same impact for me. I regret some of the changes made, but still a great game. Combat was much improved and quite addictive.



So I'm hoping ME3 is indeed a synthesis of both games.

#482
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Il Divo wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

In the end... I think the ME series is what it is because the characters seem so real.  Between voice acting, graphics, gestures, and movie like camera work... I just find myself beleaving the ME world more than other games.  To me that is immersion.  That is more RPG than any RPG I have played.  


I think this hits on a very important issue; Mass Effect 2 actually brought to life the 'cinematic style' that we were supposed to receive with Mass Effect. Camera pans, character interactions, etc, all these issues should have been addressed when they took on the cinematic approach. Mass Effect conversations, aside from lip synching, play out in a very similar fashion to Jade Empire/Kotor. Mass Effect, while fun, still follows the pace and style of traditional Bioware games, which I thought was not their intention with the game.

Whatever wrote...
I'm actually more worried about TOR. MMO's are the devil, full of depravity and sin! :devil: 


I am actually very worried too. Starcraft II is the first actual game Blizzard has released since WoW came out in 2004. I don't want to see this happening with Bioware once Old Republic comes out. I know I'll play it, but I would have much preferred a Kotor 3.

Edit: It's also why I'm partially worried with Dragon Age 2, which I hoped would be for more traditional Bioware fans. I'm going to wait to hear what's going on before causing any trouble, but I do hope it's going to be more than just a Mass Effect set in Ferelden.


I've wondered about this myself. Everyone keeps going on about Blizzard's fastidious standards and that's why it takes them so long to produce titles. They are an excellent developer, maybe one of the best. If w.o.w never came about, would we see more games from them? I can't say. But 10 or 12 years between new releases is a long damn time.

Bought Starcraft 2 btw. My first rts. We'll see how that goes.

#483
Il Divo

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slimgrin wrote...

I've wondered about this myself. Everyone keeps going on about Blizzard's fastidious standards and that's why it takes them so long to produce titles. They are an excellent developer, maybe one of the best. If w.o.w never came about, would we see more games from them? I can't say. But 10 or 12 years between new releases is a long damn time.

Bought Starcraft 2 btw. My first rts. We'll see how that goes.


Hmm, that's a good question. I think they would have had to come up with some other product in that time. Personally I'm a Warcraft III fanboy. The story of Arthas is one of my favorites to experience and the art style was just so much fun. I probably should go back and experience all the old-style Blizzard goodness like Starcraft. It's a shame thinking about all the other RTS games we could have gotten in the six year gap since WoW came out. Image IPB

#484
DarthCaine

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Because they've got tons of money coming from WoW and just take like years long vacations

#485
Gorn Kregore

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Throw_this_away wrote...

The article is here.

Regarding gameplay choices, Casey Hudson had the following to say...

"Weplan out the larger plot points of the story from one game to the next,but it would be impossible to plan it all in advance,"

"More importantly, we'd never be able toplan as many creative opportunities ifwe'd do it all up front. Instead, we record what a player has done in aplay-through, and then we have all of those choices available that writers can refer to as they build storylines...

"Numerically,
it's over 1,000 variables that we'll have access to for shaping the MassEffect 3 experience for people who've played the previous games."

And on the topic of Action vs RPG...

"Ifyou define an RPG as a game where you equip your hero by sifting through an inventory of hundreds of miscellaneous items and spend hours fiddling with numerical statistics, then Mass Effect 2 isn't one,"


"In Mass Effect 2 we focused on what we love about RPGs: An awesome sense of exploration, intense combat, a deep and non-linear story that'saffected by your actions, and rich customisation of your armour, weapons and appearance...

"We had an overwhelmingly positive response to this approach, and while we'll make further adjustments to it for Mass Effect 3, we're really happy with how it's been received so far."


My, I haven't made a post this serious in awhile.

Anywho, in a way this is "good" news for me, they won't be wasting time fixing gameplay issues atleast they fixed the "bad" bits from ME1.  Anywho, the gameplay issue even if it was going to be "fixed" I'm willing to bet you'll still have people bashing the game,  about just as much or just as little of folks as there is now.

As mentioned several times, party banter is a needed thing. Not the ME1 party banter, that thing was a joke. The Dragon Age Origins one- or simple a improved version of the DAO one. It's not hard, it wouldn't be bad seeing real conflicts and not pre-determined rubish like we got in ME2 (hey atleast they TRIED to be interested in that end unlike ME1).

Another thing is, they should bring the Intimidate and Charm skills from ME1, that's one of the things I truly missed from the first game.

So before I start talking about other things let me quote something Casey said which made me nod and sigh at the same time.

"In Mass Effect 2 we focused on what we love about RPGs"

Well the thing is, I'll be honest, Mass Effect 2 or even Mass Effect in general never really fell into the RPG category in my point of view, it never did. I've played other RPGs- and hell even Fallout 3 is more of an RPG than Mass Effect 1 ever was. Mass Effect 1 was simply hiding behind the RPG genre claiming it was an RPG when deep down we all knew that it was trying very hard to mimic a mediocre TPS game. Mass Effect 2 improved it by making it feel a lot more "open" about itself so they improved the gameplay as some would say, and less "hey i'm a closet boy claiming im an rpg" even though it is still trying hard in claiming it's an RPG when it clearly isn't. Sure you got "stats" and an inventory system in ME1 but if you guys start claiming that's what makes it an rpg than if that's the case the game S.T.A.L.K.E.R. might aswell be a RPG when it clearly isn't.

"In Mass Effect 2 we focused on what we love about RPGs: An awesome sense of exploration, intense combat, a deep and non-linear story
that'saffected by your actions
, and rich customisation of your armour,
weapons and appearance..."

Well time for me to talk about the bolded part.

"An awesome sense of exploration"? Really Hudson? The exploration in ME2 was probably just as uninteresting and bland as the first game, I mean seriously I know this doesn't involved anything but why didn't you just take the example of your DLCs? Like Bring Down the Sky or Overlord, to be honest those were really good missions with decent choices, unlike most of the sidequests in ME2. ME1 however had the better sidequests, if you exclude the copy/pasted planets and bases, but I can't say ME2 is one to talk seeing as all they did was make most of the side quests take place in a God damn tropical rain forest.

Right anyways, intense combat. Hm, well I have to admit the combat was a LOT more intense this time around than ME1, I mean good God. The combat in ME1 was really bad, Jesus Christ. Lets not go into that anymore I'm sick of the ME1 combat.

Well deep and non-linear story, okay sure, I have to agree that the story was a lot less linear than the first game, even though the storyline in ME2 was sort of missing a few things, maybe an actual "evil villain" would have added a nice touch, and please don't say "BUT HARBINGER N COLLECTORS!-" because we all know their involvement of the story was pretty damn small compared to the average mercs you came across. Well basically I came to the conclusion that in ME2 that the main antagonists were the obstacles in your, and your squad's way. ME2 however was missing a very "emotional engaging" choice like in ME1 the Virmire survivor.

Well did the choices really affected anything? Nah, probably not anyways, my ME1 choices barely even came up even with the dialogues. And what the hell, why isn't that incident with Toombs mentioned at all? That's like one of the biggest discoveries in ME1 and they just toss it out and replace it with a pretty lame email. To be honest even though it felt nice having the Import feature I would like them to tweak it up a notch in ME3, and ffs I want to encounter Toombs again man.. what is this....

Oh yeah, they should make a few more missions which involve your backstory and whatnot like they did in ME1, I admit they dealt with that pretty well.

Rich customization of weapon, armor and appearance... okay...well I can admit that the mentioning of a rich customization of weapon makes Casey look like a complete fool, seeing as the weapons in ME2 can't even be customized in any possible way (upgrades aren't customizations btw), armor fine sure that was cool I guess same with the appearance thing.

Well I hope they take what I say into consideration even though I think they won't.

#486
VoidShaman

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The games were enjoyable enough for me. I don't expect perfection or anything, just a good time.

#487
Shadow_broker

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ME2 rules ME1 fanboyz "suck donkey ballz"



You know it's true

#488
tonnactus

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bjdbwea wrote...

Calling ME 1 a KotoR clone is questionable. But isn't pretty much every shooter a clone of the other too? Aren't people still buying them in record numbers?


When it comes to the tps combat,Mass Effect 2 is like Gow. Except the fact that interesting Bossfights didnt exists...

Or even interesting bosses...

Modifié par tonnactus, 07 août 2010 - 06:51 .


#489
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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...


But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are .


When they are so confident about their product,why they released a demo months after the main game was released?
How many bioware games had this?

#490
bjdbwea

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tonnactus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are .


When they are so confident about their product,why they released a demo months after the main game was released?


Because they know what their real sales numbers are? :whistle:

#491
Pocketgb

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tonnactus wrote...

When they are so confident about their product,why they released a demo months after the main game was released?
How many bioware games had this?


Is it a sign of desperate sales, or did they make enough cash to be able to spare the time to make a demo? We can all come up with some pretty interesting conspiracy theories but I don't think pointing to a game trial is good 'evidence' (ex. WoW).

tonnactus wrote...

When it comes to the tps combat,Mass Effect 2 is like Gow. Except the fact that interesting Bossfights didnt exists...

Or even interesting bosses...


Except GoW doesn't have interesting locales, or even interesting characters.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 07 août 2010 - 09:19 .


#492
Jaysonie

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tonnactus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...


But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are .


When they are so confident about their product,why they released a demo months after the main game was released?
How many bioware games had this?



I remember a while ago(i dont know if it was bioware per say)it was said that a demo was to be released shortly after the ME2 came out. This demo was planned for a while, Bioware just never got around to it. Also, bioware should get into the habbit of releasing demos, its a good practice. Plus, if i were bioware, than i would be confident about ME2 to seeing as how the it got near perfect reviews from practicly everyone outside of this forum.

#493
Darth Drago

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tonnactus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...


But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are .


When they are so confident about their product,why they released a demo months after the main game was released?
How many bioware games had this?

Don’t forget the price drop for the game as well.

It does seem like half ass backward thinking.

-Shouldn’t you release a demo before the game comes out or at its release instead of 6 months AFTER its been out?

-It seems a bit odd (to me at least) that a game that just came out is already dropped in price this soon. I’ve seen games that have had the same price they had when it was released for over a year. I see Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 is still listed at $59.99 on the Best Buy web site and that came out in November. (I had to do a search for recent games since I don’t buy them that often anymore. Not even sure what has been released in January)

Must be due to slow sales with a large overstock supply of the game…

Modifié par Darth Drago, 07 août 2010 - 09:41 .


#494
Pocketgb

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Pretty much everything *but* MW2 has dropped price awhile after it's release. Activision is the new EA, Bobby Kotick the new devil.

#495
Jaysonie

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Darth Drago wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...


But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are .


When they are so confident about their product,why they released a demo months after the main game was released?
How many bioware games had this?

Don’t forget the price drop for the game as well.

It does seem like half ass backward thinking.

-Shouldn’t you release a demo before the game comes out or at its release instead of 6 months AFTER its been out?

-It seems a bit odd (to me at least) that a game that just came out is already dropped in price this soon. I’ve seen games that have had the same price they had when it was released for over a year. I see Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 is still listed at $59.99 on the Best Buy web site and that came out in November. (I had to do a search for recent games since I don’t buy them that often anymore. Not even sure what has been released in January)

Must be due to slow sales with a large overstock supply of the game…



Actually, the original Mass Effects price dropped to 20 bucks about 5 months after its release in november of 07. Its very common for a game to drop in price a few months after its release.

Modifié par Jaysonie, 07 août 2010 - 09:53 .


#496
Spectre 117

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Jaysonie wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...


But this is what it comes down to. Bioware knows what their real sales numbers are .


When they are so confident about their product,why they released a demo months after the main game was released?
How many bioware games had this?

Don’t forget the price drop for the game as well.

It does seem like half ass backward thinking.

-Shouldn’t you release a demo before the game comes out or at its release instead of 6 months AFTER its been out?

-It seems a bit odd (to me at least) that a game that just came out is already dropped in price this soon. I’ve seen games that have had the same price they had when it was released for over a year. I see Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 is still listed at $59.99 on the Best Buy web site and that came out in November. (I had to do a search for recent games since I don’t buy them that often anymore. Not even sure what has been released in January)

Must be due to slow sales with a large overstock supply of the game…



Actually, Mass Effects price dropped to 20 bucks about 5 months after its release. Its very common for a game to drop in price a few months after its release.

Also January games that released along with ME2,Darkisders And Bayonetta are down to 20 bucks right now and to the person who said MW2 is still priced 60 first of all it now cost 50 and you can compare the sales number of ME2 with MW2 please its unfair more so because ME is only available on 360 and PC while MW2 is available on all platforms,besides Activision is evil and would charge 80 if they could:(

#497
tonnactus

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Is it a sign of desperate sales, or did they make enough cash to be able to spare the time to make a demo?


So many months after the release? Yes. What else should be the point of that?

Pocketgb wrote...


Except GoW doesn't have interesting locales, or even interesting characters.


Oh,really not? Fighting inside the big worm ,different sections,like the bowel. The place where the fight with the sea
monster happen.

And i dont talk about characters and "locations"(small shopping malls at best anyway),but about that so praised combat. See above. And what else to mention: The fight where the brumak was used,the vehicle sections or the flying locust animal. When bioware copies gears combat,they should do it right and make it a little exiting and varied at least.

Mass Effect 2 combat is predictable and boring,including "bossfights" (the vanguard charge didnt rescue it). Powers could make it at least a bit better,but  biotics and tech are downgraded in this game.

Modifié par tonnactus, 07 août 2010 - 10:02 .


#498
Jaysonie

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@ Spectre 117
I just dont like how Tonnactus and Darth Drago are insinuating that Mass Effect 2 is selling poorly. It grinds me in the wrong places.

Modifié par Jaysonie, 07 août 2010 - 10:02 .


#499
Pocketgb

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tonnactus wrote...
And i dont talk about characters and "locations"(small shopping malls at best anyway),but about that so praised combat. See above.


Right, you're comparing a developer who doesn't put a whole lot of emphasis on combat to one that puts pretty much all emphasis on combat.

ME2 wouldn't stand well on its own if it was nothing but the combat, just like how GoW wouldn't stand well on its own if it was just the writing.

#500
Jaysonie

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tonnactus wrote...

Is it a sign of desperate sales, or did they make enough cash to be able to spare the time to make a demo?


So many months after the release? Yes. What else should be the point of that?

Pocketgb wrote...


Except GoW doesn't have interesting locales, or even interesting characters.


Oh,really not? Fighting inside the big worm ,different sections,like the bowel. The place where the fight with the sea
monster happen.

And i dont talk about characters and "locations"(small shopping malls at best anyway),but about that so praised combat. See above. And what else to mention: The fight where the brumak was used,the vehicle sections or the flying locust animal. When bioware copies gears combat,they should do it right and make it a little exiting and varied at least.

Mass Effect 2 combat is predictable and boring,including "bossfights" (the vanguard charge didnt rescue it). Powers could make it at least a bit better,but  biotics and tech are downgraded in this game.


Youve been on this forum for months and have done nothing but criticize ME2.  It seems more than likely that you wont be getting ME3 so it just seems like a good idea to find something else to play and stop waisting your breath here.

IMO of course.

Modifié par Jaysonie, 07 août 2010 - 10:12 .