887 réponses à ce sujet

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

mdouglas86 wrote...

BUT, the core gameplay of combat (i.e. responsiveness, simplicity of controls, etc...) was better in ME2 and I consider that to be beyond debatable. 

Like with every other aspect of ME2 even the combat gameplay was oversimplified. The simplicity of the controls was made too simple to the point of annoyance: I don't like being forced to have run, take-cover and interact share the same damn key for one. On a PC where you have dozens of keys that's just terribly bad, especially when you don't even use a quarter of them (including the quick keys that ME1 had such as 'J' for Journal and 'M' for Map, etc.)

And wow... as a PC gamer the more I read about Dragon Age II the more I want to throw up and just return the middle finger to BioWare that it seems to be giving me. Dragon Age was supposed to be the big return to their PC roots and the very next game is already getting bitten by the console bug on top of all the dumbing-down and simplification and limitations. It just seems that as time goes on BioWare just keeps slipping and slipping and slipping further into the same chasm of mediocrity and mass appeal.

Lumikki wrote...

The reasons combat in ME1 is very shallow.

• Rush
• Shoot
• Shoot
• Shoot
• Shoot

Yeah. Good luck with that on Insanity with krogan, biotics and snipers around.

yup there's nothing like pre-judging something to get you all a-frothing, is there? i remember you did the same thing with me2, then recanted and have subsequently slipped back into your old viewpoints again.... or do i need to post your "review" thread?

good luck trying the simple-combat approach in me2 on hardcore or insanity, too, btw. again: at least there's the opportunity in me2 for a variety of combat strategies, moving around cover, flanking etc. the only time there was any variation in me1 was on UNCs where you could sniper/be sniped from miles away, the rest of the time it was simply hold down the right trigger/spam powers.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 11 août 2010 - 11:30 .

[Jebel Krong]

Burdokva wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

except it does protect you in me2.

Oh, please, that's a blatant lie - pick out any random mod that allows you to head into a mission with casual clothes and gameplay wise, there's no difference at all. There absolutely no way to feel the difference in 3% weapon damage or 3% shields increase, let alone when the purchasable/researchable upgrades increase by 10% at a time, and even that's barely noticeable.

Visually, ME2's armor is fantastic, but gameplay, it's pure s---. The only thing that's worth it is the ammo pouch.

that's because the game levels in difficulty as you do - so did me1, btw. (and using mods doesn't count).

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

At least in ME2 you can run out of ammos in that weapon and need to change weapon. I finded that because that weapon use in ME2 where more situation based as what weapon fits better in this situation.

I actually generally agree that, for the most part, combat mechanics were better as far as basic control went. That said I still think it needs a lot of work and needs something to make it more than just decidedly average. As somebody said, if you're going to mimic Gears of War in combat then do it properly; don't just take the bare essentials and add barely anything else.

And I personally don't like being forced to use a weapon I don't even like and don't feel suits my playstyle or the character I've made just because the others are on empty. If BioWare are going to insist on using this stupid thermal clip crap of a system (and they may as well... the damage has already been done now) then at least give me the option of "none" in a weapon category. That way I can at least spread my clips amongst weapons I want to use, and also aren't held up whenever I switch weapons and have to scroll through that weapon I don't want to use every damn time because it's always between the two that I do.

here i agree: they may have added more animations, better mechanics but it could still be markedly improved to compete with the hardcore gears shooters (ironically gears still has the aiming/corner glitch where it throws you off and you can flick viewpoint up and down uncontrollably - happens in me2 too).

the ammo system is still a load of crap - i preferred the overheat system in me1, and i wasn't hobbled playing sniper by running out of ammo, either.

[Terror_K]

Jebel Krong wrote...

yup there's nothing like pre-judging something to get you all a-frothing, is there? i remember you did the same thing with me2, then recanted and have subsequently slipped back into your old viewpoints again.... or do i need to post your "review" thread?

I didn't totally recant though... the game just didn't turn out to be as bad as I thought it would. But for the most part I was still right in the end about the overall simplification and dumbing-down of the game (in some ways, it was even more dumbed-down than I thought: the upgrades and weapon customisation, for instance, sounded better than they turned out to actually be). The combat was a lot better than I thought it was going to be, and non stat-based aiming did make for a better game, but overall it was still pretty shallow and could have done with some more stuff to keep it interesting, ala Gears of War.

So, yeah... I pre-judged the game, and in this case I was right for the most part. Despite BioWare's claims that ME2 was still a strong RPG, it really wasn't. I conceded that the shooter aspects worked better than I thought they would, and that other factors such as Jack's character and what came across as being a very over-the-top approach focusing too much on violence, swearing and action weren't as bad as trailers made them seem. But the whole thing was still a little too "Modern Hollywood" in a few areas, and overall was too streamlined.

I thought it was going to be a 5/10 game, and what I got was an 8/10 game (though the more I've played the more I think of dropping that to a 7/10). It is by no means a 9/10 or 10/10 game though. As a game overall it may be an 8/10 in my books, but as a follow-up to ME1... it gets about a 5. It just seems I treat the game harsher because I give it little praise and a lot of flak, but that's because I feel it gets too much praise as it is, and praising it further isn't going to result in BioWare fixing the issues: it's just going to encourage them to keep the final part almost the same, or even worse make it more simple and lacking.

Modifié par Terror_K, 11 août 2010 - 11:51 .

[JedTed]

Terror_K wrote...

And I personally don't like being forced to use a weapon I don't even like and don't feel suits my playstyle or the character I've made just because the others are on empty. If BioWare are going to insist on using this stupid thermal clip crap of a system (and they may as well... the damage has already been done now) then at least give me the option of "none" in a weapon category. That way I can at least spread my clips amongst weapons I want to use, and also aren't held up whenever I switch weapons and have to scroll through that weapon I don't want to use every damn time because it's always between the two that I do.

If limited ammo is your main problem then what you need is to work on your shooter skills.  I'm not trying to say you suck personally just when you have a limited supply of ammo then it forces you to make those shots count.

Personally i don't know why Bioware removed the aim-assist that was in the first game, if they kept it then i don't think all the haters would be so up tight about ME2 being turned into a Gears clone.

[tonnactus]

Kai Hohiro wrote...

Considering you mentioned the Sentinel in that sentence, which is one of the easiest classes(if not the easiest) to beat insanity with, shows how little you know.

And the most boring class too.Especially on insanity.

[Terror_K]

JedTed wrote...

If limited ammo is your main problem then what you need is to work on your shooter skills.  I'm not trying to say you suck personally just when you have a limited supply of ammo then it forces you to make those shots count.

Oh, it doesn't happen often. But it still annoys me when I, for example, don't want to use a shotgun but do want to use pistols and a sniper-rifle, and have to keep flicking past the shotgun when changing between them each time. If I have no interest in taking a particular weapon with me, why should I be forced to just because I have the ability to use it? Dragon Age, NWN and Baldur's Gate don't force me to carry a mace, a dagger and an axe with me if I only want to use a longsword and a bow.

It just gets in the way, and it's more the principle of it using resources (i.e. thermal clips) that I don't want it to because I have next to no interest in using the weapon. The reason I trained up in pistols and sniper rifles in the original game was because that's all I wanted to use, and I ignored the shotgun (it was easier in ME1 because pistol to sniper switching was easy, thanks to no heavy-weapons between on the other side of things).

I built my character to use those weapons and avoided the shotgun entirely, so why can't I do the same here? The main reason was not only to suit my playstyle, but to create more playstyles (I made another character later of the same class and build them differently, with shotgun as their primary weapon. Totally different style of play, despite being the same class, which adds diversity. ME2 kind of took that away by forcing things on me I don't want.

To me it's like dividing a packet of lollies between three people, but instead of dividing it evenly between three people you divide it into four lots and then just end up tossing a quarter of the candy out.

[CatatonicMan]

tonnactus wrote...

Kai Hohiro wrote...

Considering you mentioned the Sentinel in that sentence, which is one of the easiest classes(if not the easiest) to beat insanity with, shows how little you know.

And the most boring class too.Especially on insanity.

I don't know about that - playing Adept on insanity has got to be one of the most uninteresting things I've ever done.

[tonnactus]

Kai Hohiro wrote...

ME2 combat actually requires some player skill, and not just maxed out abilities and equipment like in ME1.

Then i must missed something. Because all abilities,especially class abilities,have very short cooldown times,Mass Effect 2 insanity is easy from the start to the end. As an engineer with dominate and drone i nearly fall asleep.

[FataliTensei]

Reading this just makes me SMH

[tonnactus]

[*]
So, now it's in insanity.

• Cover
• Shoot
• Cover
• Shoot

Oh, isn't that same what it's in ME2?

I give everyone a simple example what happens if someone didnt use his powers in a right way
in Mass Effect on insanity:


This vid also show the difference between krogans in the first game and
now.

Modifié par tonnactus, 11 août 2010 - 12:42 .

[Burdokva]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

except it does protect you in me2.

Oh, please, that's a blatant lie - pick out any random mod that allows you to head into a mission with casual clothes and gameplay wise, there's no difference at all. There absolutely no way to feel the difference in 3% weapon damage or 3% shields increase, let alone when the purchasable/researchable upgrades increase by 10% at a time, and even that's barely noticeable.

Visually, ME2's armor is fantastic, but gameplay, it's pure s---. The only thing that's worth it is the ammo pouch.

that's because the game levels in difficulty as you do - so did me1, btw. (and using mods doesn't count).

What scaling, what not counting, just what? 

Oh, why bother. I explain something, get rebutted by a poorly written, overly short response by someone who either didn't read what I typed, or can't wrap his head around it.

Call fanboy whoever you want, but it's ridiculous even debating on this forums with a bunch of people who behave like litte kids, hands clamped to their years and chanting "my favorite game is betta just 'cause, you fanboy!".

[Jebel Krong]

Burdokva wrote...
What scaling, what not counting, just what? 

Oh, why bother. I explain something, get rebutted by a poorly written, overly short response by someone who either didn't read what I typed, or can't wrap his head around it.

Call fanboy whoever you want, but it's ridiculous even debating on this forums with a bunch of people who behave like litte kids, hands clamped to their years and chanting "my favorite game is betta just 'cause, you fanboy!".

funny i thought the same thing reading your post - you'd better get back to school ASAP if you can't even grasp such basic concepts as difficulty scaling...  i'd type s-l-o-w-e-r and L-O-U-D-E-R but i don't think it would help...

you really think the 3% bonus on weapon mods in me1 made any difference any more than they do in me2?

user mods don't count because they aren't a standard part of the game that everyone else plays, therefore you cannot judge their effect in any unbiased fashion - you have already altered the game how you want it, by installing them.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 11 août 2010 - 02:07 .

[Throw_this_away]

I am replaying ME1 right now... and struggling. I am reminded why ME2 is so good for so many reasons. I HATE the overheat system, and the inventory too. Never mind graphical and frame rate issues.

[Burdokva]

Jebel Krong wrote...

 i'd type s-l-o-w-e-r and L-O-U-D-E-R but i don't think it would help...

No, it wouldn't. Better start writing properly.

[Max Legend]

fantasypisces wrote...

I wouldn't say the sentinel is 'the' easiest, but of course is one of the best, the other two being soldier and infiltrator. But all have their strengths and weaknesses, soldier more health, sentinel more armor, infiltrator easy escape.

I don't think sentinel got worse in the second game from a gaming perspective. I just think they got 'less of a variety', but that is true for all classes. I loved my sentinel in ME1 because I had so many abilities, I always love the jack of all trade classes. In ME2 because of so much fewer skills (which I hate btw) it can seem they got toned down, but compared to everyone else they were actually better in many ways.

.

My main complaint about the sentinel in ME1 was the similarity of some of his skills(overload and sabotage dont make quite a difference) and some pointless ones(damn you neural shock,stasis is better).

And no,he's not toned down in the sequel.Shield/barrier strip+cryo blast for CC=god mode.

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

*snip*It just seems I treat the game harsher because I give it little praise and a lot of flak, but that's because I feel it gets too much praise as it is, and praising it further isn't going to result in BioWare fixing the issues: it's just going to encourage them to keep the final part almost the same, or even worse make it more simple and lacking.

i hope you don't really believe that - BW (and 90% of most game studios) don't set out to make bad games, and judging by me2's review aggregates and sales figures, most people would be happy if they just did me2 again but with a new story (or finish the trilogy as it would be) - knowing BW's history i'm sure they'll go all out to impress again and it'll be a different experience to both previous games, and sure some things won't work and some will - but that's how they learn; and in the meantime we get something awesome.

[Jebel Krong]

Burdokva wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

 i'd type s-l-o-w-e-r and L-O-U-D-E-R but i don't think it would help...

No, it wouldn't. Better start writing properly.

i'd quote your previous post again, but i don't really think i need to...

[Terror_K]

Jebel Krong wrote...

user mods don't count because they aren't a standard part of the game that everyone else plays, therefore you cannot judge their effect in any unbiased fashion - you have already altered the game how you want it, by installing them.

Yeah, but the example here was proving that the armour doesn't protect you at all by illustrating that the removal of armour entirely makes no difference (you can't illustrate this without modding by example because the game doesn't let you go out in your casual Normandy gear). If you were to mod the game in exactly the same manner in ME1 you'd get slaughtered, because your defense is calculated by the armour you wear, and you'd have 0 armour protection. That's how it proves that ME2 armour doesn't even act like armour at all: if your Shepard ran out in the buff they'd take the same amount of damage. The armour in ME2 has no base protection stats or values at all. That's why your squaddies can run around in ridiculously unbattleworthy outfits and it doesn't make a lick of difference. That's why it's more akin to wearing a bunch of rings and amulets than being armour at all: all bonuses, but no actual protection value whatsoever.

Jebel Krong wrote...

i
hope you don't really believe that - BW (and 90% of most game studios)
don't set out to make bad games, and judging by me2's review aggregates
and sales figures, most people would be happy if they just did me2 again
but with a new story (or finish the trilogy as it would be)

Funny... I recall a lot of people saying the same thing after ME1 about ME2. I was one of them. I have to say that I "like" how after ME1 came out and people complained that BioWare acknowledged the problems and communicated with the fans about fixing them, but when ME2 comes out and people have problems they just laugh it off and think their product is perfect. The difference seems to be that official reviewers shared the complaints with ME1, but not much with ME2.

- knowing
BW's history i'm sure they'll go all out to impress again and it'll be a
different experience to both previous games, and sure some things won't
work and some will - but that's how they learn; and in the meantime we
get something awesome.

I dunno. To me, Mass Effect 2 wasn't particularly awesome, as I personally found it to be BioWare's biggest disappointment to date. Sure... it's likely their highest reviewed game and most popular, but that just syncs up with the fact that it's gone more mainstream and appealed to a greater audience by simplifying things down more. And from the looks of it Dragon Age II is suffering a similar fate now too and is also getting dumbed down for the more casual gamer, and is no longer the series designed for the PC that went back to BioWare's roots that it once was.

I was getting nervous about the direction BioWare was possibly going for quite a while now, and as time goes on their decisions just seem to be proving my suspicions. The way this is going they're going to quickly be the next UbiSoft or Activision.

Modifié par Terror_K, 11 août 2010 - 02:26 .

[Burdokva]

Thanks, Terror_K.



ME2 armor is nothing but 3d model and textures with bonuses that stack on top of a preset, unmodifiable (except via research) level stats. It's not an armor, per sé, it's more of a handy visual accessory.

[lazuli]

Jebel Krong wrote...

(ironically gears still has the aiming/corner glitch where it throws you off and you can flick viewpoint up and down uncontrollably - happens in me2 too).

I hate that.  It seems to be worse in ME2 than in Gears (2).  I play both games frequently, and I notice it a lot more in ME2.

[Jebel Krong]

Burdokva wrote...

Thanks, Terror_K.

ME2 armor is nothing but 3d model and textures with bonuses that stack on top of a preset, unmodifiable (except via research) level stats. It's not an armor, per sé, it's more of a handy visual accessory.

you and terror_k: it doesn't matter because you can't see that it has no effect without "cheating." as long as the game is balanced in terms of damage it makes no difference baseline 0 or 50 or 100%. is that so hard a concept to understand?

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

Funny... I recall a lot of people saying the same thing after ME1 about ME2. I was one of them. I have to say that I "like" how after ME1 came out and people complained that BioWare acknowledged the problems and communicated with the fans about fixing them, but when ME2 comes out and people have problems they just laugh it off and think their product is perfect. The difference seems to be that official reviewers shared the complaints with ME1, but not much with ME2.

depends, one person's "problem" in me2's case, isn't the same as another, also weeding out legitimate gripes when the game has been so well-received/reviewed is obviously tougher. the fact that christina norman did that presentation where they mentioned adding back in more complexity for me3 must be encouraging for you, in that respect. it's also far easier to add good stuff back in from a solid base (me2) than change from me1-2 with all the broken mechanics that were in the first.

[SnowHeart1]

Titanium Man wrote...

Me, I think Mass Effect 3 should use ME2's combat and ME1's skill system, with a bit of customization available for weapons. I agree that ME1 went too far with customization, but ME2 had too little. Just finding the sweet spot would be fine.

This basically sums up my feelings.  The weapon system in ME1 was a nightmare and once you unlocked the Spectre weapons the loot was pointless except for farming.  ME2 may have parred that down too far, and then completely wiped out the skill thing such that a level 30 vanguard was basically the same as any other vanguard.  Sure, you didn't unlock all of the specializations, but that felt like a cop-out from a design perspective.  ("Let's set  the number of skill points so you always wind up with two or three less than maximum.  Brilliant!" )

I did love the armor system in ME2, though.  The visual customization was a huge improvement over ME1, so it's not entirely accurate to say all the customization in ME2 was cut down.

But, add more skills and character-build variety back in, add in a few more weapons into each category, and it'll probably be a good mix.  (And I can continue to ignore those cerebral-abortions like the mini-nuke... yes, I still hate it.  Sue me; I hold a grudge and beat dead horses.)

[Kasen]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Titanium Man wrote...

Me, I think Mass Effect 3 should use ME2's combat and ME1's skill system, with a bit of customization available for weapons. I agree that ME1 went too far with customization, but ME2 had too little. Just finding the sweet spot would be fine.

This basically sums up my feelings.  The weapon system in ME1 was a nightmare and once you unlocked the Spectre weapons the loot was pointless except for farming.  ME2 may have parred that down too far, and then completely wiped out the skill thing such that a level 30 vanguard was basically the same as any other vanguard.  Sure, you didn't unlock all of the specializations, but that felt like a cop-out from a design perspective.  ("Let's set  the number of skill points so you always wind up with two or three less than maximum.  Brilliant!" )

I did love the armor system in ME2, though.  The visual customization was a huge improvement over ME1, so it's not entirely accurate to say all the customization in ME2 was cut down.

But, add more skills and character-build variety back in, add in a few more weapons into each category, and it'll probably be a good mix.  (And I can continue to ignore those cerebral-abortions like the mini-nuke... yes, I still hate it.  Sue me; I hold a grudge and beat dead horses.)

I think combining the ME1 and ME2 weapon customizations could work very well, you research new plans (for instance, higher heat sink capacity seems like it would be popular, scopes for assault rifles, lasers for pistols, so on and so forth - personally im fond of semi-auto ARs over burst or auto, lots of options here i think), maybe even put in the option to change the color of every squadmember's personal weapons to match their armory style or what have you... viola.

I said it in another thread today, but while I'm at it, I'd like to see hand grenades from ME1 return in ME3 as a kind of mini-heavy weapon that doesn't cover up the back of Shepard's armor.

Armor for Shepard was great and I'd be happy to see it return in the same fashion, but I really want to see more squadmates in at least minimal armor. I hate to beat that dead horse as well, but it's annoying to see so many squadmates with skin showing in what should be a vacuum or poisonous atmosphere. The female squadmembers are obvious here, but even Jacob could be in armor like Ashley or Kaidan have.

As for skills, I think ME1 had too many (sorry, just my opinion) and ME2 too few... there's got to be a happy medium there.

Modifié par Kasen13, 11 août 2010 - 03:19 .