887 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

Jebel Krong wrote...

no, that's called a development build which tests certain features, and is common for a game development, which is why you have alpha, beta and RC phases/builds. to say that is what was intended for release or the "true vision" is ridiculous - otherwise that would have been what was released...

Why this wasnt released in this way.Possible answers:
Hardware(console) restrictions. Gameplay problems who couldnt be solved in the given development time.

[Kai Hohiro]

tonnactus wrote...

Why this wasnt released in this way.Possible answers:
Hardware(console) restrictions. Gameplay problems who couldnt be solved in the given development time.

No, it simply was a development build, I think that's pretty apparent.
It has nothing to do with restrictions or whatever, but games in development are often fundamentaly different from what they turn out to be in the end.

Games evolve and change throughout development. What a game plays and looks like in it's first quarter of development is rarely what it is in the end.

When scripting and programming I often try out rather wild ideas. Sometimes these ideas even progress fairly far until me and my team realize that it just wont work out as planned. Sometimes an idea will morph into an entirely different feature than originally intended.

A game isn't set in stone as soon as development starts.

Modifié par Kai Hohiro, 12 août 2010 - 11:38 .

[Terror_K]

No, that's true. But they're building the game they intend to make throughout this process, and as such you can get a glimpse into what they were trying to accomplish with Mass Effect. It's not like they're purposefully pumping time, resources and money into developing these things with no intention of using them.

[Warlock Angel22]

I with many who hope the main focus of ME3 is story. I don't want them to waste time on game mechanics. I'm fine with the way ME 2 played from that standpoint. What I'd like to see is more mission similar to the final mission. I love that you had to make a choice between who to lead your squad, who to take the tech or biotic duties. Of course you could still have missions where anyone could go but more missions like the final one wouold be really cool.

[Jebel Krong]

Terror_K wrote...

No, that's true. But they're building the game they intend to make throughout this process, and as such you can get a glimpse into what they were trying to accomplish with Mass Effect. It's not like they're purposefully pumping time, resources and money into developing these things with no intention of using them.

glimpse, yes, but nothing more - there are always millions of features that get cut (like the interrupts, for example) that don't work for whatever reason - game development is as much about what doesn't make it as much as what does. looking at pre-release candidate builds just gives you an overall direction of development, nothing more.

in recent interviews dr ray has even stated that they are building and designing stuff internally that never gets seen, let alone released (still developing on the iphone for example).

[Sparda Stonerule]

Terror_K wrote...

No, that's true. But they're building the game they intend to make throughout this process, and as such you can get a glimpse into what they were trying to accomplish with Mass Effect. It's not like they're purposefully pumping time, resources and money into developing these things with no intention of using them.

It's not like someone says it works then they just ignore it. I'd like to point out this:  then the changes of that to this:  then even more changes when we get to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9S-kUj5vcc and finally this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdWIuxpO22s

Development changes happen. They happen quite a bit. Eventually they settle on what they want. I mean just look at those changes made to Ocarina of Time.

[lazuli]

Warlock Angel22 wrote...

I with many who hope the main focus of ME3 is story. I don't want them to waste time on game mechanics. I'm fine with the way ME 2 played from that standpoint. What I'd like to see is more mission similar to the final mission. I love that you had to make a choice between who to lead your squad, who to take the tech or biotic duties. Of course you could still have missions where anyone could go but more missions like the final one wouold be really cool.

That's a good point Warlock Angel22.  The gameplay improvements between the first and second game were huge but definitely needed.  I would be fine with them keeping gameplay largely the same as it was in ME2 for the final installment of the trilogy.  I confess ignorance on the finer points of game design, but with less time and resources spent ironing out the kinks in gameplay, perhaps more can be spent on characters and story.

[Jebel Krong]

lazuli wrote...

Warlock Angel22 wrote...

I with many who hope the main focus of ME3 is story. I don't want them to waste time on game mechanics. I'm fine with the way ME 2 played from that standpoint. What I'd like to see is more mission similar to the final mission. I love that you had to make a choice between who to lead your squad, who to take the tech or biotic duties. Of course you could still have missions where anyone could go but more missions like the final one wouold be really cool.

That's a good point Warlock Angel22.  The gameplay improvements between the first and second game were huge but definitely needed.  I would be fine with them keeping gameplay largely the same as it was in ME2 for the final installment of the trilogy.  I confess ignorance on the finer points of game design, but with less time and resources spent ironing out the kinks in gameplay, perhaps more can be spent on characters and story.

i also particularly liked the levels with natural phenomenon: haestrom being a great example. the alien environments were suitably creepy, i'm hoping they go all out for any reaper-set levels, though (anything like some of the me2 concept art would be gob-smacking).

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 12 août 2010 - 02:32 .

[Max Legend]

tonnactus wrote...

Max Legend wrote...



My main complaint about the sentinel in ME1 was the similarity of some of his skills(overload and sabotage dont make quite a difference) and some pointless ones(damn you neural shock,stasis is better).

??
One skill just strip shields.The other stop enemies to shot at you.

Actually that's damping,a engineer exclusve skill.


Also both overload and sabotage do shield damage.

[catabuca]

I think powers/talents do some things better in ME2, like you can actually see the effect they're having on your target more accurately than in ME1, and the ability to arc them is great. That said, I far prefer the range available in ME1 (Firstly, if these are the most bad-ass people in the galaxy why are their skills so limited compared to ME1?; Secondly, with Tali and Garrus suddenly having way less powers, and different ones, than in ME1 it seems rather odd). Some of the ways the new powers work on defences is a little odd (why biotics don't at least unbalance some enemies regardless of their defences, for example).

As a whole, I think the way powers work in ME2 is an improvement to ME1, but the powers themselves need tweaking, and there need to be more available, at the very least for your team mates.

I'm also still not completely sold on global cooldown, at the same time as recognising the long cooldowns of ME1 weren't ideal either. I'd like to see a happy medium.

[Kai Hohiro]

catabuca wrote...

I think powers/talents do some things better in ME2, like you can actually see the effect they're having on your target more accurately than in ME1, and the ability to arc them is great. That said, I far prefer the range available in ME1 (Firstly, if these are the most bad-ass people in the galaxy why are their skills so limited compared to ME1?; Secondly, with Tali and Garrus suddenly having way less powers, and different ones, than in ME1 it seems rather odd). Some of the ways the new powers work on defences is a little odd (why biotics don't at least unbalance some enemies regardless of their defences, for example).
As a whole, I think the way powers work in ME2 is an improvement to ME1, but the powers themselves need tweaking, and there need to be more available, at the very least for your team mates.
I'm also still not completely sold on global cooldown, at the same time as recognising the long cooldowns of ME1 weren't ideal either. I'd like to see a happy medium.

The problem with more and more abilities for your party members is...where do you hotkey them?
8 hotkeys is already not enough in ME2. And I sure as hell don't want 50+ hotkeys like I had on my shaman in WoW.
Sure they could give everyone a dozen skills, but I sure dont want to be pausing the game every other moment to cast something

Modifié par Kai Hohiro, 12 août 2010 - 03:06 .

[catabuca]

Kai Hohiro wrote...

catabuca wrote...

I think powers/talents do some things better in ME2, like you can actually see the effect they're having on your target more accurately than in ME1, and the ability to arc them is great. That said, I far prefer the range available in ME1 (Firstly, if these are the most bad-ass people in the galaxy why are their skills so limited compared to ME1?; Secondly, with Tali and Garrus suddenly having way less powers, and different ones, than in ME1 it seems rather odd). Some of the ways the new powers work on defences is a little odd (why biotics don't at least unbalance some enemies regardless of their defences, for example).
As a whole, I think the way powers work in ME2 is an improvement to ME1, but the powers themselves need tweaking, and there need to be more available, at the very least for your team mates.
I'm also still not completely sold on global cooldown, at the same time as recognising the long cooldowns of ME1 weren't ideal either. I'd like to see a happy medium.

The problem with more and more abilities is...where do you hotkey them?
8 hotkeys is already not enough in ME2. And I sure as hell don't want 50+ hotkeys like I had on my shaman in WoW.
Sure they could give everyone a dozen skills, but I sure dont want to be pausing the game every other moment to cast something

See now, I play on the xbox, so this has never been an issue for me. I always (almost always) use the power wheel, simply because with the xbox controller I can only have 3 powers mapped, all of them my own. I like having a moment to allocate orders to my squad based tactically on what's going on around me at the time, but then I don't know any different. (Incidentally, on my current playthrough I appear to have lost the ability to re-map those 3 powers. I could at the beginning of the game, but now the option has gone and I'm stuck with AI hacking on LB, when I want Energy Drain grr.)

How did it work in ME1? I assume you had to pause more often? I guess that comes down to how you prefer to play.

[Kai Hohiro]

catabuca wrote...

See now, I play on the xbox, so this has never been an issue for me. I always (almost always) use the power wheel, simply because with the xbox controller I can only have 3 powers mapped, all of them my own. I like having a moment to allocate orders to my squad based tactically on what's going on around me at the time, but then I don't know any different. (Incidentally, on my current playthrough I appear to have lost the ability to re-map those 3 powers. I could at the beginning of the game, but now the option has gone and I'm stuck with AI hacking on LB, when I want Energy Drain grr.)

How did it work in ME1? I assume you had to pause more often? I guess that comes down to how you prefer to play.

Yeah this problem is very different on consoles...
See in ME2 it's important to me to have every ability I will actively use in combat, from me and my party members, on a hotkey. I virtually never pause the game except at the start of a mission for ammo powers on my party.

That's whats also my big grief with ME1. I had the option to either let the AI do whatever, or pause the game constantly. Needless to say I wasn't happy with either.

Of course for a console player this'll be entirely different since you dont have that many hotkeys to begin with and need to rely on the pause button....
C'est la vie, can't make everyone happy I guess

[Sailears]

Kai Hohiro wrote...
The problem with more and more abilities for your party members is...where do you hotkey them?
8 hotkeys is already not enough in ME2. And I sure as hell don't want 50+ hotkeys like I had on my shaman in WoW.
Sure they could give everyone a dozen skills, but I sure dont want to be pausing the game every other moment to cast something

I agree with you there. Even now I could do with two more hotkeys, so there are 10 in total.

[JKoopman]

Max Legend wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Max Legend wrote...



My main complaint about the sentinel in ME1 was the similarity of some of his skills(overload and sabotage dont make quite a difference) and some pointless ones(damn you neural shock,stasis is better).

??
One skill just strip shields.The other stop enemies to shot at you.

Actually that's damping,a engineer exclusve skill.


Also both overload and sabotage do shield damage.

Did you even play ME1? Overload destroys shields. Sabotage overheats weapons. Damping shuts down tech and biotic powers.

None of those powers could in any way be called similar unless by "similar" you're referring to the fact that they each also cause additional secondary damage.

catabuca wrote...

I think powers/talents do some things better in ME2, like you can actually see the effect they're having on your target more accurately than in ME1, and the ability to arc them is great.

I actually thought Shepard inexplicably shooting out biotic balls that magically arc towards his target was fairly stupid and nonsensical (especially considering that the same powers used by squadmates suddenly become line-of-sight and instantaneous) and is inconsistant with how biotics are explained to work.

I do however like that multiple powers can have additional combined effects.

Modifié par JKoopman, 12 août 2010 - 03:36 .

[catabuca]

JKoopman wrote...

I actually thought Shepard inexplicably shooting out biotic balls that magically arc towards his target was fairly stupid and nonsensical (especially considering that the same powers used by squadmates suddenly become line-of-sight and instantaneous) and is inconsistant with how biotics are explained to work.

I do however like that multiple powers can have additional combined effects.

I think now cover is used by the player and enemies alike it makes it necessary that some powers arc, otherwise you'd not be able to use them as often. Also, with something like pull, for example, it makes sense that it arcs, since it's most often used (by me at least) to pull enemies out of cover. I understand where you're coming from though. I guess I square it with my idea of ME lore as this ability to arc being something the newer implants have enabled. One way around it, I guess. I find it more fun to be able to arc. That said, I still enjoy ME1's biotic/tech powers immensely.

I'm with you on how squad mate powers work though. It's really annoying you can't arc them, although I do appreciate their immediacy in times of combat stress though

Modifié par catabuca, 12 août 2010 - 03:42 .

[Max Legend]

I never use hotkeys.Pausing the game for issuing orders and using powers was never boring-for me at least.



Same with DAO.

[catabuca]

Max Legend wrote...

I never use hotkeys.Pausing the game for issuing orders and using powers was never boring-for me at least.

Same with DAO.

Of course, this is another thing. I play DAO on the console as well, so I've never experienced to top-down strategic play that PC gamers can utilise. I don't feel I'm necessarily missing out though, again since using the console controls is all I've ever known.

[Max Legend]

@JKoopman:Last time I played ME1 was about 3 months ago so I might be wrong.I'll give ME1 another run after I finish King's bounty:The legend.

[catabuca]

Max Legend wrote...

@JKoopman:Last time I played ME1 was about 3 months ago so I might be wrong.I'll give ME1 another run after I finish King's bounty:The legend.

Yeah, they definitely do have different effects. Sabotage overheats weapons so enemies can't fire, but as a side effect it also burns enemies (which will invariably have some effect on their shields if they still have some). I don't know what secondary effects damping has, but it's always been incredibly useful when up against Asari commandos, for example, because it stops them using their biotics against you. It's the first thing I'd deploy when doing the Thorian Creeper level of Feros each time the commando appeared - it gives you some time to dispatch her before she and the creepers overwhelm you. And overload was just for getting rid of shields or synthetics - I don't believe it had any discernable effect on weapons or attack ability.

[Lisa_H]

Warlock Angel22 wrote...

I with many who hope the main focus of ME3 is story. I don't want them to waste time on game mechanics. I'm fine with the way ME 2 played from that standpoint. What I'd like to see is more mission similar to the final mission. I love that you had to make a choice between who to lead your squad, who to take the tech or biotic duties. Of course you could still have missions where anyone could go but more missions like the final one wouold be really cool.

I agree with this. In ME3 I want a great epic tale. I think the game mechanics improvments in ME2 were all good, but in ME3 I want better storytelling.

[Max Legend]

catabuca wrote...

Max Legend wrote...

@JKoopman:Last time I played ME1 was about 3 months ago so I might be wrong.I'll give ME1 another run after I finish King's bounty:The legend.

Yeah, they definitely do have different effects. Sabotage overheats weapons so enemies can't fire, but as a side effect it also burns enemies (which will invariably have some effect on their shields if they still have some). I don't know what secondary effects damping has, but it's always been incredibly useful when up against Asari commandos, for example, because it stops them using their biotics against you. It's the first thing I'd deploy when doing the Thorian Creeper level of Feros each time the commando appeared - it gives you some time to dispatch her before she and the creepers overwhelm you. And overload was just for getting rid of shields or synthetics - I don't believe it had any discernable effect on weapons or attack ability.

I had different tactics against them.I always used Liara's singularity and my lift for crowd control.I used throw as last resort if the creeper rush wasnt wiped out as expeced.Never used barrier on that level.


About overload-I once used it on krogan without shields and it caused him decent damage which was odd.

[catabuca]

Max Legend wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Max Legend wrote...

@JKoopman:Last time I played ME1 was about 3 months ago so I might be wrong.I'll give ME1 another run after I finish King's bounty:The legend.

Yeah, they definitely do have different effects. Sabotage overheats weapons so enemies can't fire, but as a side effect it also burns enemies (which will invariably have some effect on their shields if they still have some). I don't know what secondary effects damping has, but it's always been incredibly useful when up against Asari commandos, for example, because it stops them using their biotics against you. It's the first thing I'd deploy when doing the Thorian Creeper level of Feros each time the commando appeared - it gives you some time to dispatch her before she and the creepers overwhelm you. And overload was just for getting rid of shields or synthetics - I don't believe it had any discernable effect on weapons or attack ability.

I had different tactics against them.I always used Liara's singularity and my lift for crowd control.I used throw as last resort if the creeper rush wasnt wiped out as expeced.Never used barrier on that level.


About overload-I once used it on krogan without shields and it caused him decent damage which was odd.

Oh yeah, I used singularity and lift plenty on the thorian level, just that I always used damping first to get rid of any biotic threat from the commando. Otherwise I found that sometimes if I wasn't quick enough she'd be able to get off a quick biotic attack before I could touch her, but if I made a point of going straight for her with damping it gave me a bit of breathing space to get on with dealing with everything else. Nothing worse than suddenly finding yourself lying on the floor unable to move.

[RomXXII]

Reading some of the comments here absolutely astound me. It makes me feel like the haters played an entirely different game to the one I did.

Some points:

Ammo Thermal clips ruined the game! -- nope, it keeps the action tense. When you're getting suppressed by a geth volley and your breathing room to attack is only a couple of seconds long, your next shot better be good. Then again, I'm used to fast paced shooters, and I can aim for my opponents' heads most of the time. As for running out of ammo, that only happens if your bullets don't go into your targets. Each chest-high wall-riddled battleground spawns enough baddies for a Widow sniper to clean house without picking up clips, and yes, tagging the heavy ammo crate refills your stock.

No gameplay variety, just duck, pop and shoot -- ME 1 was a cover based shooter, albeit a poorly implemented one. This one does it mostly right. I played my soldier and infiltrator the same way (sniper build) for my third character I decided to go Vanguard, and oh was it a revelation. Jumping from mook to mook, letting off shotgun blasts to the face, I rarely ducked into the chest high walls, choosing instead to go around pillars or take down another opponent while the charge cools down, quickly scanning the battlefield for the next Charge victim. It felt more like the old Doom than anything. I'm starting up with Adept this time around, and even this early on at insanity level, I'm surviving a lot more than I expected, but realized that I had to switch from my standard Miranda/Grunt or Grunt/Legion setup. Now my squadmates are geared to strip away shields and barriers, letting me pluck out foes with Pull, then comboing with Warp, Throw, or my squadmates' Concussive shot. I had to plant singularities in tight corridors with no cover and then methodically beat down enemy defenses until the singularity takes hold. It's slower, but a lot more tactical. I'm thinking of going Sentinel next, I'd like to see if I can go the tank route.

No inventory boo! -- and thank god for that. Seriously, what military organization forces its blackops team to buy weapons personally? That was so immersion-breaking for me, especially when your starting guns in ME1 only sold for like 25 creds while new purchases cost thousands. Now had they made Shepard start out as a freelance merc, maybe buying your own weapons would make sense.

Fewer weapons, no mods -- each weapon feels drastically different from the next. As a sniper, if I want to shoot more often with the penalty of weaker damage, I went with the Viper. If I wanted to clean house with deadly one-shot kills, then it was Mantis/Widow. My Vanguard prefers the Claymore, but I've heard some people stick to the Scimitar or the Eviscerator. If I needed to break specific defense types, that's what ammo powers are for. No need to go meandering through an inventory system, just one button and you're all set. And there's more than one armor. You can mix and match your armor set to either boost powers, shields or health. As for the linear progression of weapon upgrades, it doesn't matter except for the first main act, where hunting for the first three upgrades is necessary to get the sub-upgrades (AP/Headshot). Mid game you'd probably have found the 3 for your main weapon, and that's usually enough.

Linear story -- the progression of one act to the next is linear (intro > horizon > collector ship > IFF > suicide mission), but the missions in each act can be taken in any order. You can even forgo some of the loyalty and recruit missions (the ones after Horizon) if you don't care about some squadmates, so long as you fulfill the requisite trigger. It's about as linear as DA:O. Sure, you can do nearly all the major quests in any order, but completing a set number of major quests or initiating a particular quest pushes the plot forward. Or maybe they mean linear level progression within missions? Because that is true, and aside from the minor annoyance of forgetting to hack that one terminal at the ground floor when you're already at the rooftop of Dantius towers, I'm ok with it.

No surface exploration, mining sucks -- There's the N7 missions if you want to drop down a planet, some of them are very creative. If you really need to roam the vast expanse of an alien world, buy the Overlord DLC. Or just play Just Cause 2. Yeah mining sucks, but at least I don't have to devote more than an hour to it.

IMHO, ME2 is a better game overall. Besides, if I wanted to number crunch, I'd play DA:O instead.

[MadCat221]

A counterpoint to the "Ammo clips"

Ammo clips could have been implemented a lot better had this new mechanic not flown in the face of the previous game's mechanics (and the laws of physics to boot). It could have worked if they actually put some thought into it, like making it a decision; cool down or new heat sink? Do I need to sustain volume of fire, or can I wait it out? Also, aren't these sinks "universal"? They're universal right up until you pick them up, at which point they're "ammo points" for only that gun, instead of a spare heat sink that could be popped into any gun. As-is, it's a badly shoehorned in explanation as to why they have "ammo" again.

Thank goodness for Coalesced modding, at least us PC gamers can dispense with the "heat sinks can't self-cool" quirk.

On inventory...

It's not really the "inventory" aspect that seemed out of place in ME1, it was the "You're on your own funding-wise" aspect. If you were given some sort of funding source to fund your operations (other than looting and selling everything), then it would have made sense that you had to buy your own hardware. They fixed that part in ME2 with Cerberus funding, but then completely gutted the inventory system.

The biggest flaw in ME1's inventory system was that there was just too many items. Everything had 10 grades. Seriously... huh? Several of the armors were identical in stats to another series! If the quality grades were simply by manufacturer instead of the 10x grades that ME1 had, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad.

All they needed to do was fix the excessive item count problem, and the inventory system would be fine. Instead... Improve = Remove.

Oh, and Rom, if you don't want to number-crunch, there's always Gears of War.

Modifié par MadCat221, 12 août 2010 - 08:49 .