887 réponses à ce sujet

[CatatonicMan]

EatChildren wrote...

On another note, I'm happy to see Hudson point out that they're writing the story as they go, since some people here seem convinced they have it all planned out, or that its reasonable to have it all planned out. Of course they're writing it as they go, as that is how 99% of trilogies are written. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails. Fingers crossed.

Except that in this case not planning it out is going to cost them terribly. In fact, it already has.

You can get away with planning in the large and 'winging it' in the small for most multi-part series because there is one single plot. When you are dealing with a game that supposedly allows for 'choice and consequences', you cannot proceed that way and expect the ending to be good and meaningful.

Look at ME2. It was a mishmash of a dozen almost completely unrelated short stories - each was good, but the complete lack of interdependence was a terrible waste of potential; they also made the plot feel disconnected, weak, and unimportant - almost as if there was no true central plot at all. Importing your game had virtually no effect on ME2 aside from a few different lines of dialogue, which basically castrated the point of having a save game import (and, indeed, choice) in the first place. In addition, being the middle child, ME2 was forced to be artificially constrained at both the beginning and end, which probably contributed to the less-than-stellar story. They also failed to give the individual squad members sufficient screen time and attention, though this is probably due to them being both numerous and optional.

Had they actually planned this thing out from the start, they might have been able to work actual depth into the game: real, tangible consequences for actions from one game to the next, choices and branches where some roads don't lead to Rome, a flowing story that didn't read like a bunch of random comic books stapled together, some consistency from one game to the next - all the good stuff that would have really made the games fantastic.

It would probably have been very difficult, but it would have been far better than the simple cop-out methods they've used so far.

Then again, I'm probably asking too much of games these days.

[Pocketgb]

CatatonicMan wrote...

*snippet*

Importing your game had virtually no effect on ME2 aside from a few different lines of dialogue, which basically castrated the point of having a save game import (and, indeed, choice) in the first place.

This is true for the filler portions of ME1 (minor encounters with various characters and the likes) but the biggest decisions from ME1 - Rachni Queen, Council - I feel we'll see at the end of the trilogy. Not to mention many LI fans are still waiting for some closure.

Wait 'n see, I suppose.

To freshen my memory: What other games or franchises have attempted to do what the ME trilogy is doing via transferring player-made choices into the sequels?

Modifié par Pocketgb, 05 août 2010 - 04:01 .

[Throw_this_away]

CatatonicMan wrote...

Except that in this case not planning it out is going to cost them terribly. In fact, it already has.

Wait till ME3 to judge.  I think ME2's goal was to introduce many of the characters for ME3.  

also remember that Casey said that the overall story is planned.  To me I see the "write as you go" stuff being the smaller choices...like the stuff that resulted in cameos from ME1 ... or in the case of the more minor choices... the emails.  

[MassEffect762]

Pocketgb wrote...

CatatonicMan wrote...

*snippet*

Importing your game had virtually no effect on ME2 aside from a few different lines of dialogue, which basically castrated the point of having a save game import (and, indeed, choice) in the first place.

This is true for the filler portions of ME1 (minor encounters with various characters and the likes) but the biggest decisions from ME1 - Rachni Queen, Council - I feel we'll see at the end of the trilogy. Not to mention many LI fans are still waiting for some closure.

Wait 'n see, I suppose.

To freshen my memory: What other games or franchises have attempted to do what the ME trilogy is doing via transferring player-made choices into the sequels?

I'll speak for myself, in my opinion Bioware is ahead of the pack overall.

What concerns me is how the trilogy is being handled, imo I don't think/feel Bioware is trying too hard push the envelope, to push themselves for whatever reason.(likely budget issues)

The emails and LIs(Ash/Kaiden/Liara) in ME2 are a huge indicator of their mindset regarding the trilogy, don't know if anyone else was worried but alarms were going off in my head.

We'll see what they have in store for us.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 05 août 2010 - 04:16 .

[Throw_this_away]

Pocketgb wrote...

CatatonicMan wrote...

*snippet*

Importing your game had virtually no effect on ME2 aside from a few different lines of dialogue, which basically castrated the point of having a save game import (and, indeed, choice) in the first place.

This is true for the filler portions of ME1 (minor encounters with various characters and the likes) but the biggest decisions from ME1 - Rachni Queen, Council - I feel we'll see at the end of the trilogy. Not to mention many LI fans are still waiting for some closure.

Wait 'n see, I suppose.

To freshen my memory: What other games or franchises have attempted to do what the ME trilogy is doing via transferring player-made choices into the sequels?

The choice thing is a double edged sword.  If you punish a player because of a choice they made by denying them significant gameplay content... then everyone will metagame and play ME 1/2 the same way.  Kills the point.  

If every game choice has radical results no matter what you decide... than game developmet costs increase.  Either you get a shorter game with more significant choice consequences, or a longer game that allows all gamers to get the same content regardless of their decisions... but with overall less impact for each decisoin. 

I think the way Bioware is handling decisions is very reasonable, even if it is not game altering.  It adds personalized flavor to your game experience without denying new gamers of content, or punishing "bad choices".   

That being said... so far I have kept all of my squadmates alive in my games (minus Tali...).  My final adept playthrough will involve me trying to kill off most of my squadmates (aside from Miranda and JAcob... I have grown to like them both in and out of combat). 

[Iakus]

Pocketgb wrote...

To freshen my memory: What other games or franchises have attempted to do what the ME trilogy is doing via transferring player-made choices into the sequels?

To this degree, none.  That is what really drew me to this game, not the shooter/rpg hybridization which has been done before (Deus Ex, which was great, and Deus Ex 2, which was not)

A video game trilogy, which you import saves to continue the protagonist's story?  Incredible!  An rpg-er's dream come true!  Finally the technology is here for a true video game epic, and it's Bioware that's doing it!

Of course, it turn out I'm still waiting,

[Throw_this_away]

MassEffect762 wrote...

The emails and LIs(Ash/Kaiden/Liara) in ME2 are a huge indicator of their mindset regarding the trilogy, don't know if anyone else was worried but alarms were going off in my head.

We'll see what they have in store for us.

The emails were a cop-out.  However... had each email been converted to actual in game character interaction than you would have a lot of plot-non-essential content.  It would kill the pacing of the game.  It would make the game far to self-referrential.   It would cost a lot.  It would potentially limit development of other game aspects (budget... all games have one). 

What ME2 did, I think they did well.  Sure Bioware could pull a GT5 and try to make a "perfect game", but at what cost?  PLus, I wouldn;t want to wait 6 years for the release.   

[EatChildren]

CatatonicMan wrote...

Then again, I'm probably asking too much of games these days.

You are. It would be awesome, but its just not going to happen. Not now, and not for a long time, not when so many factors are taken into account for the development of a game (time, money, potential sales, publisher, etc).

Besides, Mass Effect 2's mini-stories problem was not a consiquence of not planning out the story in the long run, but a consiquence of putting too many writing resources towards arguably insignificant aspects of the plot. Had Mass Effect 2 cut two or three of the recruitable characters and dedicated that development time to exposition of the Collectors and the main plot, it would have been much closer to the original game in structure.

When I talk about planning, I more talk about the whole Reaper thing. Mass Effect 1 neatly wrapped up a huge amount of the Reaper mystery as well as how they assault the galaxy. Everything from this point either has to be attached to what was established, or retcon.

Sadly.

[Iakus]

[quote]Throw_this_away wrote...

The choice thing is a double edged sword.  If you punish a player because of a choice they made by denying them significant gameplay content... then everyone will metagame and play ME 1/2 the same way.  Kills the point.  [/quote]

Or maybe not denying them content, but allowing different content.  Different dialogue choices.  Different people to talk to.  maybe a sentence to mention that yes, you were on Yakuze and yes you know who was responsible for that thresher maw attack?  Or that you did/didn't sell Cerberus information to the Shadow Broker a couple of years back.  Obviously you can't do too much to significantly change the game, but was it too much to ask for, say a top ten list of choices that could have definitive repercussions?  Just a little reinforcement of continuity that shows you are playing as Commander Shepard and not as Jacob Taylor/Miranda Lawson?[/quote]


[quote]If every game choice has radical results no matter what you decide... than game developmet costs increase.  Either you get a shorter game with more significant choice consequences, or a longer game that allows all gamers to get the same content regardless of their decisions... but with overall less impact for each decisoin.  [/quote]

Again a top ten(or some number) list of choices that are likely to have more immediate results.  Council lives/dies.  Who is the human Counseler.  Who LI is, if any.  Did you paragon or renegade Garrus.  As it is, I think Wrex's survival has the most direct impact in the game.  Which is,...less than satisfactory...given how the ME series was promoted

[quote] I think the way Bioware is handling decisions is very reasonable, even if it is not game altering.  It adds personalized flavor to your game experience without denying new gamers of content, or punishing "bad choices". [/quote]

IMO, the Dragon Age origin stories provided more of a "personalized flavor".  Heck the psych profile from ME 1 did more. (at least you got a mission out of it)  The way descisions were handled in ME 2 seemed to be little more than an acknowledgement that, yes, you played ME 1.  

[Halo Quea]

Throw_this_away wrote...

MassEffect762 wrote...

The emails and LIs(Ash/Kaiden/Liara) in ME2 are a huge indicator of their mindset regarding the trilogy, don't know if anyone else was worried but alarms were going off in my head.

We'll see what they have in store for us.

The emails were a cop-out.  However... had each email been converted to actual in game character interaction than you would have a lot of plot-non-essential content.  It would kill the pacing of the game.  It would make the game far to self-referrential.   It would cost a lot.  It would potentially limit development of other game aspects (budget... all games have one). 

What ME2 did, I think they did well.  Sure Bioware could pull a GT5 and try to make a "perfect game", but at what cost?  PLus, I wouldn;t want to wait 6 years for the release.   

The emails WERE a cop out .    I kept thinking every single time I got one of them, "Gee isn't this future?   Shouldn't messages be more media dynamic?"     We didn't have to meet up with anybody who just wanted to drop us a line, but even a tiny holographic represenation of those chracter's messages would have been more appealing than those static emails.   Certainly would have made them more relevant.

[Throw_this_away]

Halo Quea wrote...
 I kept thinking every single time I got one of them, "Gee isn't this future?   Shouldn't messages be more media dynamic?"     We didn't have to meet up with anybody who just wanted to drop us a line, but even a tiny holographic represenation of those chracter's messages would have been more appealing than those static emails.   Certainly would have made them more relevant.

Agreed on the media... I like the holograph idea.  But cost and developmet resources probably stopped that idea in it's tracks.  I am glad we got more squaddies, far fewer glitches, more varied sidequests, and better combat instead

EMail does seem like ghetto tech for 2185, but then they are transmitting those emails agross the galaxy.  That has to be worth something.  It must be difficult to get bars in deep space. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 05 août 2010 - 04:48 .

[Pocketgb]

iakus wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

To freshen my memory: What other games or franchises have attempted to do what the ME trilogy is doing via transferring player-made choices into the sequels?

To this degree, none.  That is what really drew me to this game, not the shooter/rpg hybridization which has been done before (Deus Ex, which was great, and Deus Ex 2, which was not)

A video game trilogy, which you import saves to continue the protagonist's story?  Incredible!  An rpg-er's dream come true!  Finally the technology is here for a true video game epic, and it's Bioware that's doing it!

Of course, it turn out I'm still waiting,

Yeah that's what I thought, which is why I guess I didn't have too many high hopes for it anyways. Hudson reminds me in many ways of Molyneux, except what Casey says is actually sometimes true ;p

[Deflagratio]

No game is perfect, though quality is not really subject to opinion, content preference is. That said, I wish so much wasn't cut from Mass Effect 1 to make room for things in Mass Effect 2.



Good things that were removed because of repetition include:



-> Loot spam



-> Inventory system



-> Redundant Mods



But at the same time, it's kind of strange certain things were removed that really made Mass Effect a better experience if not necessarily a better game.



-> Planetary Exploration (Make ****ing or not, Mass Effect 2 was worse off for it's loss)



-> Squad customization options (Even 3-5 different armors (Whole suits) with combat bonuses would be better than lol "outfits")



-> Shop, and thus Hub World relevance. (An odd complaint, but I would much rather have Bought all new weapon models through a shop, than magically find the one self-replicating weapon suddenly on a mission, if only from a suspension of disbelief standpoint).



It would be nice if the Decryption and hacking games actually scaled, and/or were related to associated tech skills. While I actually like the decrpytion and hack minigames, they become too easy quickly, and never scaled, even though it seemed like they would.



From a story aspect, Mass Effect 2 felt schizophrenic when compared to it's predecessor. It seems they're trying to cram all these squadmates into this game, and for every member they add, the rest of the game is weakened just a little bit more. There seemed to have been a critical mass around the 8 member count,w hen you wonder why there are some members anyway. The problem is likely only to become exacerbated with Mass Effect 3, when some of the new blood joins with already strong personalities like Wrex, Kaiden, Ashley and Liara(DLC relevance pending).

[SithLordExarKun]

Pretty much don't care, i don't consider ME1 and ME2 to be "RPG's" at all. ME1 was a poor attempt at trying to mash the two elements together(shooting and RPG) but failed, ME2 got rid of the useless RPG mechanics the first game had, therefore it had less trash but still not a proper RPG.

I guess im reminded why i prefer DAO over these 2 games as far as a real RPG goes.

That being said i just hope the missions in ME3 aren't so damn linear as well as having better character interaction(hated how both games interactions were limited to the normandy).

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 05 août 2010 - 05:12 .

[Terror_K]

Hugely disappointed by this news. Looks like ME3 is going to be another shallow, dumbed-down and linear bore-fest made for the masses.

[angj57]

Sounds good to me. I'd much rather have them focus on story and having our decisions carry over as much as possible than to have them redesign the engine to try and please everyone (impossible anyway).

[snfonseka]

"over 1,000 story variations"

[Terror_K]

snfonseka wrote...

"over 1,000 email variations"

Fixed.

Modifié par Terror_K, 05 août 2010 - 05:23 .

[Pocketgb]

Terror_K wrote...

Hugely disappointed by this news. Looks like ME3 is going to be another shallow, dumbed-down and linear bore-fest made for the masses.

Like ME1  How's that for some catalyst?

[Terror_K]

Pocketgb wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Hugely disappointed by this news. Looks like ME3 is going to be another shallow, dumbed-down and linear bore-fest made for the masses.

Like ME1  How's that for some catalyst?

If that were the case, they wouldn't have "needed" to change things in ME2 so much.

[Zweebs]

Terror_K wrote...

Hugely disappointed by this news. Looks like ME3 is going to be another shallow, dumbed-down and linear bore-fest made for the masses.

Don't buy it? Seriously if it makes you that mad. 

[EatChildren]

The most we can hope for with the variations is a series of 'summary' slides detailing the consiquences of all the logged variations across all games, extending beyond the events of the Mass Effect trilogy.



Similar to what Fallout, Fallout 2, and Arcanum did. EG: In Arcanum there is a half-orc who takes over an orc workshop, and attempts to start a revolution that gives orc human rights, a right to fair pay and not below minum wage, no slave labour. Fighting the racists, so to speak. You can chose to help him, or get rid of him. During the endgame, a slide for that particular quest would show imagery and a summar of the outcome, such as him going on to push and succeed at getting humanitarian rights for orc, or being removed and orc remaining as low-class citizens.



Its a pretty simple yet effective way of giving closure for all the things you've done, without really demanding too much on the development side of things. If BioWare are going to do something, I think they should do that.

[snfonseka]

Terror_K wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

"over 1,000 email variations"

Fixed.

:P:)

[Siansonea]

All the prematurely butthurt whining in this thread aside, I'm actually still looking forward to ME3. Call me crazy, but it's probably still going to be a fun game. I enjoyed the other two games though, which is why I'm a member of the forums here.



I guess other people post on forums of games they don't like. I don't understand that, but whatever. I'm not going to mosey on over to the "Army of Two" forums and start ranting.